Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Time Trapper's first "appearance" (barring the Ty. M. Master reference) was a mention of Superboy and Mon-El trying to break through his Curtain of Time, which is the first Legion babies appearance - ADVENTURE COMICS #317 (Feb 1964) .

His next appearance in the Silver Age though was in ADVENTURE COMICS #321 (Jun 1964) in which he pretends to be Commander Wilson of the Science Police and learn the secret of the Concentrator.

The Legion's failure to capture the Trapper is referenced again in ADVENTURE COMICS #329 (Feb 1965) .

Finally (in the Silver Age), the Time Trapper is defeated at the hands of the Legion Babies in ADVENTURE COMICS #338 (Nov 1965) . All throughout the Silver Age, he is depicted as scientist who uses weapons against the Legion. It's only later he becomes this all-powerful, omnipotent being.

Later in ACTION COMICS #385-#387 (Feb-Apr 1970) the Time Trapper sends Superman through a series of adventures in time that eventually leads him back where he started. (Which is the Inifinte Man's version of time and not the Trapper's.)

Next would be the appearance in SUPERMAN #295 (Jan 1976) in which the Trapper almost succeeds in rewriting a history without the Legion.

His next Legion appearance would be in SUPERBOY #223 (Jan 1977).

(I'll work out the rest of the timeline after work...but it includes the reveal as a Controller in ALL-NEW COLLECTORS' EDITION C-55 [1978] and appearances in SUPER FRIENDS.)

Hmmm...the two appearances in Superman stories certainly helps build Johns' case for him being a Superman villain. Especially, wow, Nighty's description of Superman #295. A dry run?

I'm not sure that was ever intended to be the same character as the Legion's trapper. I've never heard of that WW tale prior to reading it on Wikipedia...and that article even makes it sound like that character wasn't called the Time Trapper. It may be something like that villain had the cloak and could travel through time...and that's the only similarity.

I'll go check out the old Who's Who in the DC Universe and see if DC considered that as the first appearance of the Trapper or as a separate character.


I've honestly never heard of that version prior to a couple of days ago when I saw it on Wikipedia.

And here I thought I had a complete Legion collection...thanks for that info. That actually makes my whole day as I haven't bought an old Legion backissue in a long time. I'm not quite sure how that one snuck by me but it seems like a huge story based on what you show there.


It's interesting seeing Cl'ar Kent on the cover of that other story. Thinking about the characters Waid was using in approx ish 15-20 of the current Legion...I hadn't actually made that connection before.


Maybe he had a tie there with the Dav Huntr character and the Cl'ar Kent character.

That's why I said Johns is twisting with his plot - not undoing the past, but refocusing on a given aspect of TT. Kudos to him for that.

Is there a reason this story wasn't available on Legion Archives? And is Father Time currently on the Freedom Fighters the same Father Time of this story?

Depends...I'm gonna go re-read the Action stories(I haven't read them in decades) but if he already knew the Time Trapper from his days with the Legion then those stories were chronologically for the Trapper after his early battles with the Legion...which means he was a Legion Villain first.


I think he was a complete mystery when he first appeared in the Early Adventure era....I think that would be the first time anyone encountered him(assuming of course the WW story doesn't count).


I've always viewed him as a guy who hates Superman and the Legion...not just Superman, not just the Legion. I don't feel it's anything new for Johns to make him a guy who hates Superman...at the same time, if he was a Superman Villain before he was a Legion Villain(chronologically, including his own chronology), that will be new...at least to my thinking.

Again...I don't get the impression that's what Johns is doing though.

Dunno...I've never heard of that Superman appearance before Nightcrawler just posted it. I'm pretty excited about it.

That could be the Father Time character from the FF...he kind of looks like him. In which case that isn't truly the Trapper...or is it?


Maybe Father Time is the Trapper or was....once. Like Cosmic Boy.


Bototm line with the Trapper though...is that he is an enigma. He's never the same guy...I think they should just keep it that way, it's been that way so long. IF you gave him a definitive origin he just wouldn't be the same.


So whether he's a force like entropy, a Legionaire like Cosmic Boy, a villain like Glorith, or a defacto God like a Controller...he's still the Trapper behind it all.

I guess the thing with Johns' bringing this (back?) into the story is that I've never really even listed the Trapper in Superman's rogues gallery. whereas I'd argue that he ranks pretty much number one in the Legion's. Levitz really sold me on that with his work on the character throughout his run. Honestly, I feel the Trapper is number one with no one even visible in his/its rearview mirror. But I can buy the Superman angle in a good retconnish way, as it doesn't take that huge of a leap.

But certainly the Trapper has morphed into a metaphor for DC's own screwups over the last 20+ years. Maybe the face under the hood should be the DC logo?

That's what Johns does exceptionally well...

He also sets up these incredibly interesting plotlines...

His weakness so far(along with mass killing of superheroes) has been delivering on the awesome potential of the premises he sets up...but if you ask me, as of the Sinestro Corps War, he's now mastered that aspect of storytelling as well. And he didn't really kill anyone in the Sinestro Corps war either...


Johns is the best thing to happen to the Legion in a long while.

Not just because of his storytelling, but because of the tremendous amount of pull he has at DC right now.


Waid and Giffen could barely get away with referencing Superboy/man just becuase the Superman Editorial Team didn't want them too...and that was when they were DC's top guys.


Johns OTOH has put Superman/boy back in the Legion, even as DC is in a battle for the rights of the characters with the Siegel family.


Now that my friends, is pull.

It'll be funny if the Legion's master villain turns out to be created by Robert Kanigher of all people...can we get a Legion/SGT Rock Teamup out of this?


IMO, Mordru was the Legion's true master villain...I mean...if Superboy and Mon-El run away from you in sheer terror, that makes you the Master Villain. But I don't guess that's really the case anymore.


The thing with the Time Trapper is that he's an unconventional villain and he's not really a guy you can use now without it somehow leading to major changes. So I'd say it's still difficult to cast him as their major heavy on a month to month/year to year basis.

And while we're at it with the Trapper...


What about Destiny? The old horror comic host, and the guy in Waid's B&B run...he's a guy in a cloak, omnipotent, and seemingly with a knowledge of all time.


Could be cousins...

Okay, I definitely misspoke when I said no one was really in the Trapper's rearview mirror; Mordru's definitely right there. But he hasn't been used in so long in a Legion story that it's diminished him somewhat. The fact that he didn't pop into my head when I originally made that statement is telling, I think.

You've kinda helped make my point for me here, Superboy. The Time Trapper has become so badass that he simply cannot be used too frequently without diminishing his importance. That, and the sheer damage he's done to the Legion comparatively to any other foe, cement him as numero uno among Legion bad guys in my mind, rather than diminishing him.

Haven't read the B&B run yet...is this the same character as Destiny of the Endless? If so, and presuming he became the Trapper, how'd he finally get unchained from his Book? Destiny has crossed my mind as well when thinking about the Trapper, but I couldn't get past the Book and the sacrosanct-ness with which Gaiman's Endless are treated, in terms of no one really messing with them.

Well I don't know if's the same guy as it was in the Sandman run...in theory it is, at the same time, the DC Universe and the Vertigo Universe are said to be separate.

That said, Destiny is back in the DC Universe...and he no longer has the book of destiny. And he started acting a bit differently after losing it...

Could the Time Trapper be Destiny stripped of his book?


You should pick up Waid's B&B run....the W&K Legion appears in it, as does the Fatal Five. Interestingly enough, the Fatal Five is the classic version, and they are clearly shown as being in future of the W&K Legion....and so is Takron Galtos.


Continuity gaffe? Not hardly...considering Waid wrote both appearances..


More like...the W&K Legion is actually pretty mysterious...it just sort began in mid-run. They have a great deal of uknown history...hints at past members that haven't yet appeared...and much of it's universe and rogues gallery is undefined.

It's easy to see Waid was trying to mirror the starting of the original Legion...completely with the bratty attitude, and beginning in midhistory with a largely unchronicled past.


Like I always said...for all we know, Superman has met and adventured with the W&K Legion.


Actually...he could join them in this months issue of the Legion as Superboy, and he would be joining at roughly the same point as he joined the original Legion.


The thing is, we don't really know anything about the past of the W&K Legion...

The only thing we know is it's comprised entirely of Adventure era Legionaires as active members.


Back to B&B...

I've noticed that Waid's B&B run was running ahead of the rest of the DC Universe. For instance, Steve Lombard returned as part of Superman's supporting cast 4-5 months ago in B&B...yet he was only officially re-introduced to the cast last week in the regular Superman titles.

Here's something to think about concerning the Trapper and Superboy Prime...


In W&K #15 there was a character in a hooded cloak telling stories of Legions from alternate realities(basically variations on the original Legion)...dead ringer for the Time Trapper in appearance.

Yet when he pulled off his cloak he was a dead ringer for Superboy...and he said his name was Dav Huntr.


Was that a revelation that the Time Trapper is indeed Superboy Prime?


Or couse that kid didn't seem as evil as Prime...but he could have been on good behavior for whatever reason at that point.

Hmmm...something else to think about concerning W&K #15...

The story that the Trapper/Superboy character tells, is one in which the Legion saves Barry Allen from death in COIE #7...


Lo and behold...Barry Allen is alive again, albeit probably not because of anything the Legion did...but you never know, we might find out in L3W.


It does seem as if Waid built plenty of mysteries in to this last relaunch...unfortunately he elected to spend the first year telling a story about Lemnos...a villain no one remembers...and the book progressed at a snail's pace.

Was Lemnos Waid's instory commentary/joke on the Legion villains created since the COIE?


No memorable villains created in a long time...so I'll create a villain whose power is that no one remembers him?


The more I examine Waid's Legion work the more I realize how much personal commentary/conflicts/issues concerning the Legion and it's problems, that he incorporates into his story telling...it's pretty interesting really.

He takes Shooter's concept of organic story telling to an entirely new level...although I'm not sure it works that well since most of it seems to escape the attention of the audience.


But back to the Trapper....the point I am making is that it's entirely possible, this version of the Time Trapper has appeared with the W&K Legion...as Superboy no less.


Maybe the Trapper can be whoever he wants to be when he pulls the cloak off.

Yes, but why would Destiny hate Superman? Is it compeeling enough to say Destiny begat Trapper begat Jerry's explanation for why the Trapper would be opposed to the Legion? Seems like we have an extra degree of separation there that makes it work less for me.

Actually, I'm currently waiting on an eBay lot I bought encompassing 1-12 to arrive. It's one of those maddeningly-slow shippers. I bought it on the 6th, paid promptly, guy stated it's already shipped, 10 days later and still hasn't arrived. *sigh*

Interesting thoughts, particularly how Mark didn't give us the Fatal Five in his 30 issues, but did in B&B. Kind of a contradiction if you go by the logic that Mark didn't want to retread old ground very much in his run.

Well #1, I don't really agree with Jerry's explanation. It's not really based on any historical usage of the Trapper outside of Post Crisis stuff, and the fact that the Universe will go on for billions of years beyond the 31st century doesn't really make the Legion the sort of threat that would gain the Trapper's notice.

Like I said...he's called the Time Trapper for a reason...and in most of his original appearances he trapped people in time eras.

If you can't travel through time...then he can't trap you.


Both Superman and the Legion could travel through time...and they did so with regularity, to each others times primarily.


So I definitely think he's their enemy beccause of their ability to travel through time...perhaps interfering with his plans of domination via time manipulation....that is what he was created to be.


As for why he hates Superman and the Legion...because Superman and the Legion combine to form the most powerful team, it's basically a violation of the space time continuum, at least to his mind...and more importantly it leads to the greatest hero joining the greatest team...and they are near his measure in their ability to travel through time, not to mention in terms of overall power..


He hates them because they can challenge him...the JLA can't, the Titans can't...it's only the Legion that had that kind of Time Travel capability.

Scratch that...it's Superboy and the Legion that had that kind of capability.

Destiny could see that as an aberration the same as the Trapper does...maybe since he no longer is bound to the book of destiny...he now has plans of conquest as his day job?


Anyway...this whole analogy is problematic since Superman can't really travel through time anymore under his own power...although Shooter's tweak to the Flight Rings could be a way.


Well...I think he wanted to create new stuff and I applaud him for that, but I don't think that meant he had no intention of using past creations...he just didn't want his relaunch to be built entirely on the past and re-introducing them.


I'd say he was successful in that...

The problem with his Legion was that it was incredibly decompressed and had an incredibly slow pace...perhaps it was because he was tied up writing 52, I don't know...but IMO, his run was definitely short on the Action and Sci-Fi elements.

Have you been following Chuck Dixon's debacle recently? It seems to add to the "Shooter's Out" rumor .
Why am I saying that? It's just that it seems we must ignore EVERYTHING related to chronology outside Johns and Morrison's books. So forget Waid, Giffen, Shooter and all other writers currently writing things not related to Morrison or Johns.

Destiny on DCU is nothing like Vertigo's. Destiny is a villain in DCU while Destiny in Sandman was a neutral entity who hold the book.

Lardy I'm thinking it over some more and I guess the point I am trying to make is that IMO, the Time Trapper hates the Legion and Superman, because of the combination of the two is what will prevent him from conquering the Universe.

If you click on that thumbnail I posted...he says it right there, those 5 Legionaires need to be eliminated from existence for him to rule.

That right there is justification for his hate of Superman.


Now applying that to the actual storyline...


Jerry's idea is more along the line of them being a point of inspiration.

His idea has some merit seeing as how in the recent Action arc the Time Trapper was trying to make people believe Superman was born on Earth etc to foster xenophobia etc.


My idea is that it's their actual time traveling ability that stands in his way...


And while Jerry's idea has merit...I'll point out that it was Superman actually appearing in the future via time travel that wrecked Trappy's plans. So the Time Travel element of the Legion is important.


Now as it pertains to Destiny...well, like in that thumbnail I posted...if Superboy has to not exist for the Time Trapper to rule the Universe, the same could easily apply to Destiny.


That is the source of the hate IMO...

I don't think it's a case of Superman causing hair to fall out or somehting like that...it's that his existence and pairing with the Legion is what will prevent the Time Trapper from ruling the Universe...and more importantly, again I refer to the Thubnail I posted...the existence of those 5 Legionaires not only will prevent him from ruling...they will cause his death.


There's all the justification you need right there for him to hate the Legion(and more specifically, Saturn Girl, KK, Chameleon Boy, Sunboy) and Superboy

Morrison's project began before Countdown...he's not ignoring them, they ignored him.


Johns brought the Action Legion back before Shooter took over the W&K Legion...again, that not Johns overrunning Shooter's plans...that Shooter wanting to overun Johns' plans.


Besides...Morrison and Johns are DC's top two writers...it makes sense their work would be protected over what anyone else is doing.


And I still contend the Shooter rumors don't add up...


Shooter is not some creatively tortured artist...this guy is a former EIC...he's had to make bottomline decisions before.

Shooter's not cut from the Chuck Dixon cloth or some guy like that...he's more cut from the Mort Weisenger or Stan Lee cloth.

He knows it's about what sells...he's made those decisions, and he's been hated for them.


Maybe Shooter had bigger plans than DC intended for him to have...

Maybe he's begging off because his return didn't produce the sales both he and DC were banking on...

Or maybe it's a just a rumor because Shooter noshowed some cons...


In any case...you can't expect DC to choose to publish a version that doesn't sell over one that does...they'll go out of business doing that.


Actually...Destiny in the DC Universe was originally a neutral entity who held the book. Neil Gaiman didn't create destiny...Marv Wolfman and Beni Wrightson did. He was a host of a mystery/horror title like Cain. It was called tales of Mystery or something like that. A neutral entity is also what he was more or less in B&B...until he lost the book.

Actually Ricardo...after reading that article...I see one name that keeps appearing in the continuity screwups...and it just so happens to be a name that keeps re-occurring in screwing up the Legion's continuity...


Mike Carlin.

He also hates Shooter.


Countdown is the one that screwed up...plus it sucked. IF it come down between that and Morrison...well adios Countdown.

How this guy Carlin has a job is beyond me.

Come on, Superboy, you know better than me that Carlin is a plain-level soldier compared to General DiDio these days. And even though I have no grudge against the person DiDio is (he seems a decent guy), the continuing screw-ups at DCU are all his responsibilities. Carlin is no hack as an editor (even though you may not like him). Dan DiDio is not exactly a household name as chief-editor. The whole FC -DOTNG mess can't be due to every editor being stupid. It seems Dan has NOT announced to other editors exactly where Morrison (and Johns) were going and let the ship run wild.

I'm not really sure how what happened with Dixon is relevant to Shooter. Dixon's made it clear that he didn't quit; he was fired. All the speculation surrounding Shooter mostly centers around him possibly quitting, not having been fired. Yes, there's evidence that both may have been victims of being railroaded by DC's A.D.D. continuity controllers (especially Didio, one would presume), but as far as we know, Shooter is presently still employed by DC; Dixon isn't.