Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Or...they could just keep making him something new every time. New origin, new alter ego...


That has kind of become his schtick, to be someone different every time. And it makes a lot of sense if you think about it...he's the living embodiment of a reboot/retcon, that would definitely make him a good Legion villain.

Hmmm...it could be...but why would the Last Man on Earth become the Time Trapper? The Universe is going to be around a lot longer than Earth...or humankind most likley. I mean I could see it as him being the last living creature(along with the roaches I guess), in the Universe...we'll call this one the Galactus orgiin...but I would not necessarily say that means he had to be the last man on Earth.


But let's just say he is...that still begs the question of who was that last man?

That's a case for Vandal Savage right there, or any of the other immortals or time travelers we mentioned.


So I'm guessing if Booster's out, Krypto is a definite no?


It could work...


What about the Composite Superman? Seriously.


Or like Lone Wolf Legionaire mentioned...the Cyborg Superman, who is trying desperately to die and is pissed because he can't.

See, that's a little bit closer to thinking like Johns, as opposed to thinking like ourselves. Most of us still are clinging to our own ideas as Legion, Superman or sci-fi fans. But ultimately, the Trapper is in the hands of one guy...Geoff Johns.

I hope Superboy/man-Prime's not the Trapper, personally. He's just such a brat and not exactly a thinker, y'know? But if you look at what Geoff's doing in JSA with the Kingdom Come Superman, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to conceive that the Trapper may be another version of Superman. He could be the KC Superman, Earth-2's Superman or--wait for it--Pre-Crisis Superman!

Pre-Crisis Superman--wouldn't that be a kick in the privates? If you let it percolate in your noggin a little while, it makes a crazy kinda sense! Admit it, that would make for a hell of a backstory...though possibly difficult to reconcile with stories from before Crisis. But everything after Crisis? Oh yeah, I can see it!

Anyhow, the Trapper having once been a version of Superman, pre-Crisis or otherwise, who's jealous of ours and wants to hurt him would certainly make sense. I'm gonna stick my neck out and predict that.

Again, I hope it's not Prime, though. I can see Trapper-Supes manipulating Supes-Prime, but I can't see S-P ever becoming more than a loose cannon/psycho type.

And, still thinking like Johns, there's also Luthor or an alternate Luthor like Alexander Luthor. (Yeah, I know they killed him off, but resurrections happen.)

Of course, there's always...pre-Crisis Luthor!

lol

"Pre-Crisis Luthor"

That's funny.

This convo has sure wandered far afield. I'm still considering Supergirl's importance to the Legion.
And consequently where Laurel Gand might fit in the DC Universe..if at all. Can't her origin take place in the "present" 31st Century DC Universe?

Following that though, I've always been comfortable with the Time Trapper being the embodiment of one of those universal forces (or something) similar to The Endless perhaps. It makes sense that over time different sentients would assume the office. Gods come and gods go. Nothing to see here, move along.

Although I like the entropy concept, I'd agree it doesn't really fit with Johns' style - or the style of the DC event comics. Is a Big Reveal moment required? Otherwise, the Time Trapper could be left unidentified and ambiguous, a creature in his own right rather than some other established enemy of the Legion or Superman. In that case, Jerry's three categories of time provide the perfect reason why the the Time Trapper hates the Legion.

No one's suggested Batman? It's a big leap and would require some cosmic event to turn him into the Trapper, but Johns has developed his antipathy to the Legion. Not really serious here - if it has to be an established character, I'd expect something more along the lines of one of the Luthors.

Quite. You've even found the precedent.

I'm not a huge Piers Anthony fan but the Incarnations series provides a a framework for the idea that there are certain concepts that require a "host" in order to be interacted with.

Despite the Trapper's seeming humanity (underneath the robe) he's something far different. Witness the Progenitor, being immortal is often shown in literature as sometimes cycling into madness for long periods.

The one thing I liked about Rokk Krinn being revealed as a Time Trapper was the idea that he'd tried out a series of ideas to make the tools he needed to achieve his goals. That makes sense too. Roger Zelazney uses time travel as a weapon in Creatures of Light and Darkness and David Gerrold uses a similar idea in the man Who Folded Himself. Perhaps it's too much for a human to exist in several places at the same time but for an entity like the Trapper it's almost unavoidable.

Ever notice that Absorbancy Boy's old Grell outfit is the same color as Time Trapper's robe?

Ah, the elegant simplicity of theory 3. It makes his oposition to the Legion largely conceptual - an idea I don't have a problem with.

And Luthor appears prominently in the 2 page LO3W "preview"....

Hey, YK...as I've said before, if the 'convo' appears to have moved past a particular point, that doesn't mean it's out of bounds or anything. (Hell, that topic's still in the subject line!) The Roundtable is everyone's topic despite the 'Lardy' in the title! I see myself as the caretaker and responsible for keeping the thread alive if it appears to be losing momentum. When it needs a little kick, I'll provide it, usually by injecting a topic that feeds off the others. Ultimately, I hope everyone will feel comfortable doing that themselves, so I won't have to.

I see the Roundtable as an evolving conversational topic that will lead to unexpected places and cover some ground in a unique way that simply creating a separate thread for each subtopic might not. By and large, I think it's succeeding rather well at that!

So please, YK, share your thoughts on Supergirl, Laurel Gand and whatever else comes to mind! And that goes for the rest of you, too!

That's kinda always been my point with my assertion that the Trapper will be revealed as having been someone we'd know. If it were, say, Rond Vidar, it wouldn't be the contemporary Rond Vidar--the Rond in the present would be exactly what he appeared to be. But if in the future Rond messed with time too much and was driven mad by his experiences or whatever, that would be how Rond became the Trapper.

When I say the Trapper is someone we know, I mean that the Trapper was someone we know and evolved into something else. I guess it's kind of a Progenitor thing, as mentioned by YK...though I feel the Trapper retains more of his personality and feelings (albeit in a warped version) and more of a sense of who he used to be than the Progenitor retained of his Jan Arrah persona.

I just don't see now how Rond could be the TT. Johns has reestablished him as the ultimate decimator of LSH, but not only that, but by removing Superman of the story. There is only one character these days with an agenda of wiping Superman's influence, and that's Superboy-Prime. He is a brat now, but in time, he might have evolved to a more cunning enemy. It fits, you know, into Johns' type of agenda.

In time: Superboy-Prime is a lame-o character for me, so I wouldn't mind if he simply disappeared to become a more worthy villain (TT, in this case).

Like I said, this is all conjecture, a gut feeling. I feel like Geoff will tell a story that will attempt to clean up the Legion continuity. We already know the Time Trapper is the big player in this. I'm just taking the leap that the Trapper's origin will play into this and that Johns will give it that extra oomph that the entropy/empty robes concept might not have for dramatic purposes.


The problem with this is that Geoff's story in Action #864 seems to make it clear that the Trapper hates Superman, and he uses the Legion to get to Supes. Does Jerry's logic still work in that light?

Yeah, Batman works less for me than Booster, really. One of the Luthors is more likely, but I'm gonna stick with my gut theory about him being revealed as another version of Superman, possibly the pre/during-Crisis version.

And just to remind, our personal opinions on the Trapper matter very little if Geoff Johns doesn't share them. I think his portrayal of the Trapper as primarily an enemy of Superman highlights this point.

Honestly, has anyone ever felt the Trapper wasn't primarily a Legion nemesis before this point?

Actually, Ricardo, I was using Rond as an example. I've come to feel that Rond would have worked as the Trapper in pre-Zero Hour continuity, but likely would not work in the context of L3W. I used Rond to illustrate my general perception of how the Trapper could have once been someone we knew more than trying to justify him as Johns' big reveal. I'd say the odds are meager that Rond will be revealed, though I have a feeling Geoff may use Rond in some sort of role.

I really hope the Trapper isn't shown to be Prime, though the hate for Superman would make him a 'prime' choice for Johns. I like my idea better of him being the Earth-1/Silver Age/Pre-Crisis Superman better. The idea just has more elegance to it than it being Mr. Head-ripper.

I should also add that the ever-changing thread subtitles are always meant to give casual glancers a snapshot of what's currently going on here, NOT to imply that any past topics are closed or new topics unwelcome. So I hope that's understood.

I know you meant Rond as pre ZH. But I never bought it, much less Cos as a villain. It's just bad writing, ignoring character development and ethos. More examples? Captain Atom on ZH and Hal Jordan on GL 48. Or every DC hero against Blue Beetle on Identity Crisis (one of the worst plots ever written).

Ethos is also my reason for voting out Pre-Crisis Superman. Again, everything conspires towards Prime. Prime was a result of COIE. Technically, pre-Crisis Superman NEVER existed because he became Superman from Earth 1. What seems to have happened after Infinite Crisis was the appearance of OTHER Supermen, but nothing (so far) has shown that the pre-Crisis Earth exists outside current Earth 1. Not even this Action Legion, which seems to be from an alternate Earth.

Also, Pre-Crisis Superman doesn't have anything to desire his own disappearance. There was nothing in his past that should hold a grudge against himself - which is exactly the case of Prime. Unless a full 360 degrees plot twist comes up, not very likely.

And to think that the ONLY twist Johns has given so far (Time Trapper as a Superman villain and not a LSH one) actually makes the whole LSH reboot-not reboot mess some sense. Quite similar scheme used to undo the ridiculous Ron Marz Parallax crap: say Parallax was using Hal as a host for pure fear and get the character back to his real ethos.

Ricardo, I admit my pre-Crisis-Superman-as-Trapper theory is a little out there (and probably off Johns' mark), but you kinda touch on why it's percolating in my brain at all: the current Superman took his place!

It's all wildly theoretical, but you have to look at it from a certain point of view. Crisis wiped out all alternate Earths and left only one Earth. The Superman of this Earth, who debuted in the "Man of Steel" LS, clearly wasn't the same guy as the prior Superman. He had a different origin in the details, was never Superboy, etc.

So what happened to the old Superman? Well, what if he was placed in a limbo outside of reality? Maybe he went mad and eventually found a way out through the barriers of time, gaining new temporal powers in the process. So he finds that he's been usurped by another Superman and develops an insane hatred for him.

From there, it's not difficult to make the leaps required to connect with what Johns is telling us. I'm not saying I'm right, but it's a pet theory I have that's kinda in-line with the types of stories Johns tells.

Again, he could have Prime earmarked as the Trapper, also. It would probably be less of a leap than my idea. But my gut tells me Johns won't do that, whether he uses my idea or not. I just think Johns probably sees Prime and the Trapper as two different kinds of characters, like I do. Prime's a thug; the Time Trapper's a manipulator. I just don't believe Prime will ever evolve into the kind of thinker-type villain that the Trapper is and always have been.

Again, all this is my gut feeling. Take it or leave it.

Your story would make sense if there was some evidence from a parallel existence of the old Earth 1 Pre-Crisis. I haven't seen it yet, but, as in everything comics, not impossible (as Infinite Crisis showed us).

As for Prime being different from the TT, I would say yes, but no at the same time. TODAY Superboy-Prime is a thug, but more likely, a spoiled brat with too much power in his hands. The Time Trapper, on the other hand, is an old immortal type of entity. I would say I can see a Superboy-Prime, after years and years of hard-ass beating and humiliation, becoming a bit more clever and vindictive, as opposed to vengeful - as he is currently.

Another possibility is that he would merge with the TT entity, who has, for some other reasons, lived on different hosts, settling with one who seeks to destroy the future most.

The idea of the Trapper wanting to separate and destroy the Legion and Superboy is nothing new...

As evidenced here:


SLOSH #223 by Jim Shooter and Mike Grell





Right there the Trapper says that for him to rule the Universe Superboy, Sunboy, Saturn Girl, Karate Kid and Chameleon Boy must be eliminated.

Hmmm....maybe that's why Karate Kid keeps dying...and Sunboy died once.


So it't not like this is a new twist, at the same time, I've never felt he was first and foremost a Superboy/Man villain, and I still don't...


To me the #1 thing is that he really finds the idea of Superboy traveling to the Legion's time offensive...and vice versa. Since he seeks to control time...it makes sense that he would find that little habit of the Legion's bothersome.


Again...this is why the characer was created, to put constraints on the Legion and Superboy's ability to travel through time. That was his purpose.


That's just about all he did for the first 30 years or so of his existence...


So I don't think Johns' characterization is off from what I know of the character...nor is his emnity with Superboy, total, or new.

And this plot of trying to eliminate Superboy/man is an old one.


In fact...I find it hard to believe that Shooter finds Johns' usage of that concept offensive...since it was his idea in the first place.

And I still say it makes more sense to the Time Trapper to be a Legion Villain because of their ability to travel through time. That is why he was created.

He is hte master of time. His original main power was to trap people in certain times. The Legion couldn't travel more than 30 days into the future, for decades. Sometimes he'd trap them in Superboy's time.

The Legion and Superboy were on some Time Super highway they adventured together so much. The Legion had two time geniuses in Rond and Brainy, and Superboy(and Mon-El and Supergirl) could break the time barrier under their own power.


That's what got his attention in the first place...


To me that was alwasy why he hated the Legion..and if they can't travel time, there's really no way they can threaten him. There's also no way they could be traveling to galaxies/across galaxies in ships if they can't break the time barrier in some fashion either.


The Legion in and of itself is no threat to him, their time is a thousand years from our own. His time is the end of time, the end of the Universe, billions upon billions of years from the time of the Legion.


IMO, they definitely have to be able to travel through time to threaten him. The time beacon, the time cube, the time bubble, the time institute...legendary heroes traveling through time...the greatest hero joining the greatest team etc.

That's what threatens him to me, and I hope Johns will play it along that angle. I don't really care who he actually is this time around. To tell the truth, it's fun coming up with theories on who he could be, so if they want to keep up that aspect of his character, that works for me too.


Yeah he's ultimately a force of nature, but I don't necessarily think he should always be defined as entropy. And I don't think just because he is a force of nature he wouldn't have a human host or avatar.

In fact that is what he is...he's been many people, and he's aware of that.

I think so. If the Legion represents the infinite through hope and progress, Superman does even more so - since he's now been set up as the Legion's fundamental inspiration, as well as their hero of last resort for an overwhelming crisis.

When we've seen the Trapper, it's always been in Legion stories (or has it?), hence the hate-the-Legion focus - which doesn't preclude a fundamental hatred for Superman. This could either have pre-existed the Legion's time or developed as the Trapper examined reasons for the Legion's existence in his effort to wipe them out.

The Trapper's first appearances were when he constructed the iron curtain of time in the Early Adenture Era...IIRC, he was first referenced in a Legion babies story.

He had a cameo and Mon-El and Superboy were shown to be trying to break his curtain 30 days in the future.


After I think his next appearance was in the Shooter Grell era where he was trying to wipe 5 Legionaires from existence, so he could rule the universe, one of them being Superboy.


The next time he was shown was at the end of the Reflecto Arc...in Superboy's time and he trapped the Legion there.


Then he made the cameo in the GDS.


And his next appearance was in Legionaires 3, when he was shown playing chess with Brainiac/Pulsar Stargrave.


Then came the PU story.


So no, pretty much every appearance up until ZH had something to do with Superman...including trying to eliminate him, even though those appearances were mainly in Legion stories.

He definitely had a focus on Superman, but it wasn't a total one. He did try to drive Lightning Lad insane once.

Actually, his (retroactive) first appearance was apparently in Wonder Woman v1 #101....