Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

There was some talk of Sensor Girl being Supergirl with only her super-sensory powers, for some reason. I'd have loved to see a spin-off 'House of El' team that included people like this version of Sensor Girl, Laurel Kent and other characters descended from our famous Kryptonians. (Other characters could have standalone super-strength, super-speed, flight and heat vision, for example.)

Instead of dragging Superman/boy out again, characters specific to the 30th century (such as Laurel Kent) could serve as the 'hook' to the Superman legacy.

No idea. I never would have destroyed Earth 2, Earth 3, etc. The decision to do this was, IMO, bone-headed, as having an 'older' Superman, Batman, etc. in their own 'JSA' world, allowed the creative teams to not just write Batman stories, but to choose *which* Batman they wanted to use! Old weathered veteran of many past conflicts or younger 'JLA-era' version.

But if I had to go with the Man of Steel era, I would have simply *not* explained it. Superboy would still show up from time to time, and nobody would question it in the 30th century. In the 20th century, Superman could have his own adventures, and 'never have been Superboy,' but, inexplicably, *a* Superboy would be a Legionnaire. Alternate Future? Hypertime? Time Trapper? Is 'Superboy' someone else, pretending to be the Boy of Steel? Let it sit for a few years until a good reason appears, or, better still, until the wheel turns round again and DC is ready to have a multiverse and a Boy of Steel again.

That being said, I thought Conner was a far more interesting character than young Clark, who was always portrayed in the 60s and 70s as a bit of a jerk. (Yes, everyone was, but since teen Clark wasn't portrayed as much *after* this time-frame, I never got to see much of him *not* being a dick, so I never really got to see a better developed character, like I did with pretty much every other Legionnaire.)

Ow. Hard choice. Any of those could do the job.

Though I like Power Girl, I don't know if I want a character now, once again, assigned to another Earth to be on the Legion.

I'd like to see a Legion with Kara and Laurel at the same time - they are not the same person.

The threeboot Legion has already had the current Supergirl, so it'd be obvious to bring her back. The Pre-Crisis Supergirl really wouldn't fit in here. It depends on what sort of Legion survives.

Did I explain my solution a while back on this thread? I can't remember.

Like the Pocket Universe, my solution would make someone other than Kal-El of the Post-Crisis Universe be Superboy. I wouldn't need the Pocket Universe, an explanation that blows holes in the "only one universe" policy. Superboy and Supergirl would be humans (probably) from a century after the 20th, taking their names from the legend of Superman. Still temporal commuter members, something Lar and Laurel didn't provide. No violation of "Superman is the LAST son of Krypton." Not 100% perfect, but since Superboy and Supergirl were no longer regularly appearing by this time, I probably wouldn't have to explain the inconsitencies ight away, if ever. What matters is, there were a Superboy and Supergirl in the Legion, so most Legion stories involving them happened. Eliminates the need for a second retcon in '89.

Just to touch back on which Earth and continuity stuff...


There were two comics with connections to the Legion that came out today, Action Comics #866 and Booster Gold #10 and both of them were kind of revealing as far as the Legion goes.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">
First of all, in Booster Gold #10, Rip Hunter goes into the future and steals a Legion Time Bubble from Brainiac 5. It appeared to be the Adventure era Brainiac, and he is talking about how Computo has just killed one of Triplicate Girl's bodies....definitely a Pre Crisis-esque Legion. The only glitch I noticed was that the Aventure era Brainy created Computo while the Legion was still in the upsidedown RocketShip Clubhouse, and the HQ in this one was the one introduced in the original Dark Circle Saga.


But basically...the sixties Legion in all it's glory, complete with the Time Bubble.


Oh and also, there is a Flight ring lying on the table by Brainiac 5 when Rip goes to steal the time machine. Brainy gets hit and knocks the table over and the ring flies into the time bubble. Originally Booster got his ring when Brainiac 5 gave one to President Reagan and it was in the museum Booster worked in 500 years later, so I'm not sure if this is a new origin for Booster's Flight Ring, or a second ring. But they definitely made a point of showing that ring falling in the Time Bubble.

As for who's ring it was, it was either Brainy's ring, or it was the split ring from Triplicate Girl's third body.


Action #866 is important to Legion Fans because it's dealing with Brainiac continuity.

The first thing I noticed about this issue is that it clear has parts of continuity of all the eras. It's got Steve Lombard, Cat Grant and Ron Troupe and the Brainiac appears to be one we haven't seen before, although he bears a strong resemblance to the original Brainiac, and he does appear to be organic. I know this upcoming arc is going to basically show all the Brainiacs so we'll see where it goes.

But as for which continuity it is? It's parts of all of them.</span></span>

I don't think DC will return to a single Universe a la post-Crisis. Unless they really went to a full reboot (which was never done during the first Crisis) - and that is very very unlikely - we will see the return of a multiverse. And it won't be 52 like today.
And I bet it will be very flexible, as in the interpretation Grant gave on that interview to the string theory of time/space.

Action was far and away the best comic I bought this week. One of the best Superman stories I've read in quite a while. Or at least, a great beginning. I'm anxious to see where it goes. The cover was nice too. It had a unique feel to it. Franks outdid himself on the interiors. If he keeps this level of quality up, I may have to forgive him for some of redesigned Legion costumes.

With the Time Trapper back front and center in L3W, it seems we may finally be getting the ultimate Time Trapper story, perhaps the one that will answer once and for all who (or what) is underneath the hood. Assuming I'm right, the question is: who will the Trapper be revealed as? Or, at least, who was the Trapper before Glorith took his/its place?

I know there have been other threads debating this and for the most part, ridiculing the 'reveal' of it being Cos in "End of an Era". Others argue that we should never, ever see the Trapper's face or that he/it should simply be the embodiment of entropy.

Well, I for one think the Trapper being revealed as someone we know would be pretty welcome and dramatic as long as the reveal is told well and plausibly.

My theory? Well, I'd never really had a pet theory in the past, but after rereading LSH #5 (Vol. 5 TMK) for HWW's thread, I now do have one. That story is perhaps the first one ever where I came out of it feeling as if I were given a hint as to whom the Trapper was, at least pre-Mordruverse. I admittedly may have read too much into the story, but I was nonetheless left with the impression.

Basically, I couldn't help but feel that Rond Vidar may have been the Trapper based on his involvement in that story. It just makes sense given Rond's inventing the Time Cube and all the extensive theoretical knowledge he has of time. I'm not saying it was the contemporary version of Rond but a future version of him that became the Trapper. Rond was a nice guy but also a very ambiguously drawn character, open for a lot of interpretation. Basically, if anyone in the Legion was actually the Trapper it makes the most sense that it was him.

Now, does that mean Geoff Johns will see it that way? Not necessarily. Heck, Geoff could decide Booster Gold's the Time Trapper!

There shouldn't be ANYTHING beneath the cloak & bandages. If you knock the hood down, it should just be empty space.

There's a really excellent thread here on the Legion forum with various points of view on the Trapper. Reboot's comments (which he argued in that thread) reminded me of it. I specifically recall he and Eryk had some great arguements about what the Trapper should be.

Here's my post in the thread Cobalt mentioned, almost exactly a year ago: http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004758#000006

I'd actually forgotten about it until Cobalt mentioned it there. At least I'm consistent

Rond Vidar as Time Trapper is a more logical choice than Rokk Krin, with his Time Institute/GL/evil father background (which would imply that the evil or madness was inherited).

Rokk as Time Trapper was a bit of a moral fable - you are your own worst enemy, or you become what you hate. The great leader and spirit of the Legion becomes its greatest nemesis. This all depended on the 5YL portrayal of Rokk as the central Legion figure. They could have made a similar argument for Imra or Garth - or even Brainy.

In checking out the linked thread, I saw that Candlelight suggested Dream Girl as a possible Time Trapper - another interesting choice.

However, I think at this point I'd go with the empty cloak/embodiment of entropy. It fits in better with a sci fi series, it's a challenging concept intellectually and it gives more latitude to the story - no need to retrofit some character's history to the Trapper story.

I'll join Reboot and Cramer's camp.

Me, too. As tempting as it might be to shoe-horn someone in there (at one point I toyed with the idea of it being Vandal Savage), it is so far into clicheland that it's now a permanent resident.

Plus the past use of the TT undermines any novelity.

Yes. DC has been trying to tell the "ultimate Time Trapper story" since 1978--when he was revealed to be a Controller.

Personally, I was comfortable with that idea much more so than TT being a force of nature. As a Controller, TT was seemingly omnipotent but could be defeated, whereas subsequent versions of him were just too powerful.

Also, as a Controller, he had a believable motive (greed), whereas a force of nature destroys just because it destroys. That makes such characters hard for me to relate to and care about.

On Rond being the Time Trapper: It does make sense logically, but the Legion is so full of other heroes who have gone bad (Brainiac 5, Laurel Kent, Element Lad, Beast Boy) that it would have to be a truly exceptional story to convince me.

I never liked Cos as the Trapper...it actually hurts Cos' character for him to wind up the Trapper, as he's sort of the embodiment of the Legion dude...


At the same time, the force of nature concept doesn't really work for me because those characters tend to be above simple concepts of good and evil and the Trapper has been shown on numerous occasions to have typical megalomaniacal ambitions. He's also shown himself to be capable of plain old murder, extortion etc.

It's always made sense that if he was going to be someone tied to the Legion, Rond Vidar would be the guy...but I don't know if that would be a particularly memorable twist.


Other characters it could be:

Wildfire - He is immortal and he does have some kind of force of the Universe type powers. He's also never been what I would call emotionally stable.


Mon-El - A version of Mon-El that was never released from the Phantom Zone in an alternate timeline.


Jaxon Rugarth - It actually makes a lot of sense for the Infinite Man to wind up being the Trapper...he's the guy with the powerset to become the Trapper.


Some 20th century hero/villain or traditional Time Traveling character...


Rip Hunter

Per Degaton

Vandal Savage


I actually think it'd be cool if turned out to be Per Degaton or Vandal Savage and it would be a link between the Legion and the JSA as well.


I think Vandal Savage would be my first choice.

Hmmm...maybe it'll wind up being Booster.

Or Krypto.

My choices
Cyborg Superman or John Byrne.

Per Degaton, eh? With Johns writing this and considering his excellent use of Degaton in the past, Johns could go that way if he takes the notion. It would certainly underscore the JSA's recent encounter with the Legion during the Lightning Saga. But I don't really feel he'll go there.

I just don't buy the Trapper as simply a cosmic force or whatever. Yes, he may have evolved into that, but he was once definitely a person. I'm sure of it! Basically, he's just too mean-spirited and spiteful historically; his vendetta against the LSH and Superman is just too personal! He was definitely human at some point and almost assuredly knew them when he was.

(And no--he's not Byrne! )

Am I the only one who thinks Johns will have the big Trapper reveal in the mini?

Ooohhh, I reaLLy like the Jaxon Rugarth idea... one of my favorite scenes is when Mysa quits the LSH in outrage as Brainy prepares to throw Rugarth's comatose body to the metaphorical witch wolves.

I do not like the idea of a "current" castmember like Rokk or Rond being revealed as the TT, becuase (for me anyway) it taints their current appearances. Plus if it was me revealed under the hood, I'd likely go jump into the first magic keyhole I could find to prevent it from happening.

But the idea of someone who already has a valid grudge against the Legion-- Rugarth, ot actually more specifically, the Infinite Man-- that works better for me.

Now someone explain how the embodiment of circular time becomes the embodiment of entropy, and everything will be perfect!

I'm opposed to Time Trapper being an established character for all the same reasons that others have mentioned. A few years back I was messing around trying to come up with a fan fiction type of story that involved the Time Trapper. It never got out of mind and onto paper. My theory for his motive went something like this.

There are three theories on time:

1. Time is linear and finite.
2. Time is circular.
3. Time is linear and infinite.

The Time Trapper is the emodiment of theory number one. He resides at the "End of Time". He was the last man - the last living creature in the universe. When he died, time ended. All that was left was entropy. All other forces converged with his dead body and the Time Trapper was born. He is near omnipotent because he contains the left over energies of everything that ever was besides entropy. He is the an example of the axiom, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". His only motivation is to make sure that he continues to exist with all of the power that fueled his creation.

The Infinite Man is the embodiment of theory number two. His existence is a threat to the Time Trapper.

The Legion is the embodiment of the third theory. If time is infinite there is always hope. Hope that things will change. Hope that things will get better. We have an infinite amount of time for things to progress. There can always be a brighter tomorrow. The Legion became the universe's greatest symbol of hope. As such, they are as much a threat to the Time Trapper as the Infinite Man. He must destroy the Legion to ensure his own existence.

I love your posts, Jerry--some of the very best in this long thread!

I honestly can buy the alternate explanations of the Trapper to some degree. But I still believe he is, or at least will be revealed as, an established character for two reasons:

1) His personal grudge against the Legion.

2) My belief that Johns will reveal him as an established character in L3W.

Jerry has what might be a plausible explanation for #1, given the Legion would stand against the Trapper's very nature. I still think it's more personal than that, but it could explain it.

#2 is pure conjecture on my part, but I feel in my gut that Johns is gonna tell the ultimate Trapper story here, possibly the one that ends the Trapper's threat once and for all. And for this to have some punch, I feel that Johns will reveal a face under the hood, probably one we'll recognize. Just my gut feeling, but I don't think the feeling is much of a stretch.

If you haven't read it, check out the issue of Action that directly followed the Legion 6-parter. The whole story is narrated by the Trapper and serves as a bridge to L3W, complete with a caption saying so and an ad for it. The Trapper analyzes Superman, Batman and Lightning in the captions. In the end the Trapper comes across as hating Superman more than the Legion, and he says all the manipulations were about taking them from him as opposed to being about the Legion itself.

So that would imply that Johns views the Trapper as more of an enemy to Superman than of the Legion. And maybe the face under the hood belongs to one of Supes' cast instead of one of the Legion's? It appears that Johns is portraying all the post-Crisis changes to Legion continuity as Superman-centric. And of course, in the real world that is absolutely true! But everything we had seen broaching it in-continuity up until now had made it pretty clear that the changes were Legion-centric or motivated around the Legion.

So how do you guys feel about the Trapper ultimately being shown foremost as an enemy of Superman? If there is a reveal of a known character, how would you feel if it's a Superman character?

Does anyone not feel that Geoff intends to tell the "last Time Trapper story" with L3W and that he will leave the Trapper's identity ambiguous?

Basically: can we separate our own ideas about the Trapper from what Geoff Johns may have in mind?

Thanks, Lard Lad.

I'm fine with the Time Trapper being an enemy of Superman. It actually gives me hope that Johns may be able to come up with a plausible explanation for the different versions of the Legion. It builds on the connection between his new version of the Legion and the current version of Superman. Best of all, it gives the Time Trapper a motivation that makes sense. He needs to destroy Superman. The Legion helped Superman become the hero that he is. He can get at Superman by going after the Legion. I would prefer that he not be revealed as an established Superman villian, though. That would leave the Legion open to another reboot the next time DC decides that Superman needs a makeover. They would decide to return to the "classic", "original" version of the villian and the Legion would be caught up in the mess again.

Why can't it be tied to Final Crisis and deal with the last man on Earth? Remember: FC is Morrison AND Johns. And Johns has hinted that all Crisis seemed to be tied to the Legion of Super Heroes.
And as with most of you guys, I'd rather TT was an entity rather than a character UNLESS it was a character who evolved to be an entity (kinda like The Spectre or Swamp Thing).
And I doubt Booster Gold is the Time Trapper. That would blow for being simplistic to the core.
However, Captain Atom could be pushed into it, as an evolution of that stupid Monarch thing. What a waste...

Maybe that's Superboy's Prime destiny... to become the Time Trapper... It would tie everything down to the pocket universe...

I'd say it was because Infinite Man was cycling through time because of the Time Trapper, each cycle through becoming more and more poweful. By forcing Rugarth through the cycles, not only was he was screwing with Brainy and Rond, but he was bringing about the event that would lead to his own creation, and he wanted himself good and charged up before he became himself.

That's paradoxical I realize...but somehow being a paradox fits the Trapper.

In fact you might even say the Trapper and the Infinite Man were birthed by the same event...each deriving power from a different concept of time. They could also have died or transformed at the same moment(the revenge arc) with Trapper ultimately winning the battle and absorbing Rugarth, or Rugarth becoming the Trapper...the end result is a being who is the complete master of time. Who could then say, retcon himself into creating the Legion.

You could even say the Trapper would then gain power by manipulating and altering time, and that's why he does what he does.

Hmmm...maybe that duality was why Rugarth was always catatonic once he was no longer the Infinite Man.


The bigger problem I'd have is that the Time Trapper hates both Superboy and the Legion, while Rugarth seems to reserve his hate mostly for Brainy and Vidar.


In any case there are different ways you could work it, although since Infinite Man hasn't been a part of any of the Post Crisis Legion timelines that I can think of, and the Time Trapper has had a great deal to do with the other Legions....that origin idea may be kind of obsolete now.