Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Negative retcon and positive retcon??? Oh, man, you make my day!

5YG was bashed for being a retcon - not because it was "bad" or "good". Chemical King was witness to the amount of hate I got back in the days for saying how bad Zero Hour had been to LSH. Time proved me right.

So, I wasn't aware they have rebooted Superman for the third time... Well, since I just came back to Superman (James Robinson is the charm), we'll see. But it is a retcon, be it in black, red or blue. And I am one of those who didn't care much for any Superboy (none, except in LSH, but Valor is better for me, because it kept the melancholy Superman lost over time) or Supergirl.

Seriously...Johns makes sense.


I know some of you guys think he just clueless lucks into fixing just about every character and team he works on and turning them into a top seller in the process...but the guy is no idiot.

And he doesn't have people defending his writing because of his drawing ability.

No...not because it's a retcon...but because it didn't fix anything.

I don't bash it for being a retcon anyway...I bash it for not making sense...I mean seriously not making sense.

Valor is not Mon-El. Different name...different past. Hugely different past. Not the same character.


And I mean some people didn't like where Giffen went with the Team...but at least he kept you guessing for his entire run.

And I'd say time was already beginning to be bad to the Legion before the 5YG even started.

And I'll be posting the sales figures to back that up as I get them.

It's ok...they wanted to be stealthy about it...they are figuring out what they want to keep and what they don't.


And Johns is going to be able to fix a whole slate of stuff he hasn't yet in the L3W...the Time Trapper can retcon...he can retcon like no other. Boom, he can put Supergirl in it...or he can be the reason she wasn't in it so far.


And you've had that for 20 years now...to a lot of complaining and rebooting.


I know you don't like him...but you aren't the problem. The people who do like him are...the people that will pick up a Legion because it is more familiar with him on the cover are(I don't mean old Legion fans either, I mean any new fan as well).

No matter what, everyone feels like they know Superman...any title he is in becomes more accessible to new readers.


That is a character driven appeal...not a creator one, and it is real. It's why the Legion stayed popular, regardless of who was writing and drawing it, for decades.

Well, for DC, it obviously was. Some titles (Superman, Wonder Woman) got clear reboots after Crisis. For most other titles, it was treated as a retcon.

The problem is the way DC continuity is changed: often by time travel, parallel universes, and other sci-fi devices. A true, hard reboot, as I define it, could not come from any event in any previous story. It would be an entirely new fictional universe in which previous stories hadn't happened, not even with an erased-by-time-travel excuse. Crisis on Infinite Earths was an attempt to simulate a reboot with the most gargantuan retcon in the history of comics.
Remember what I said about the Superman movie? It was the Silver Age as we like to remember it. In the real Silver Age at DC, every character was a jerk. In later years, DC tried to present upstanding characters like Superman as worthy of the admiration they receive.

That's something I didn't like about the Pre-Crisis DC Universe. By shunting all the Golden Agers off to Earth-2, Earth-1 had no superheroes before the Silver Agers. And because Superman was the only one of his generation to have been active as a teenager, he was the first superhero on Earth-1.

The Post-Crisis universe was less metafictional. By combining the Earths, putting Golden Age heroes on the combined world, and eliminating Superboy, the order different heroes debuted in had little to do with their order of introduction in reality. Hal, Barry and Ollie were still Silver Agers (though the slidng timeline moved the Silver Age out of the 60s). They weren't even the first generation, and they were superheroes befoer Clark was, since he wasn't Superboy. Batman debuted before Superman. Wonder Woman... well, she was made from clay, but I always thought of this version as being of the same generation as Dick Grayson. The classic DC heroes were divided among generations. It was an accident of history, and became one of the main reasons behind my preferring the Post-Crisis universe.

Ricardo,

The issue of Action that came out a few weeks ago that you haven't received yet deals directly with your questions here - such as Superman not mentioning his past with the Legion, etc. This issue serves as a direct lead-in to Lof3W

Point of Order :

Something else else that tends to be forgotten on most threads here on the Lightning Saga is that it was NOT written by Johns. It was written by Johns AND MELTZER. Johns' Action story reads much differently from the Lightning Saga, so I attribute much of the left-field stuff like Red Tornado/Wildfire to Meltzer. Plus I'm sure Didio had fingers in the plotpoints as well.

Also it will be extremely difficult to bring back "every" pre-crisis Legion story "intact" - especially those early Adventure stories
as there were also Superman villians like Luthor and Bizarro bouncing around there and those versions are presently out of continuity. However Johns could get pretty close, and at this point that works for me.

Personally I'm more concerned about Chemical King and Tyroc apparently being excommunicated from this round more so than anything else.

True...the Red Tornado thing certainly could be Meltzer's tweak. I don't even think it was mentioned once during the Action arc.


But he did give Starboy schizophrenia...but again, I consider that could have always been the case and having that affliction is nothing in the 31st century. It only became a factor when he left the future and wasn't able to avail himself of the future medical advances. And jumping Universes probably didn't help him much either.


When/if he comes back to the 31st century...his schizophrenia will go away and it won't ever be a concern again as long as he is there.


And the thing about him not being re-admitted is pure specualtion...there nothing conclusive about Superman's statement concerning Starboy...nothing at all. That is pure speculation and always has been.


Teen Bizarro hasn't happened as far as we know...but I do believe Luthor and Superman knowing each other as kids is back.

And adult Bizzaro is back...so is Bizzaro World and Yello Lantern and Bizzaro Olsen etc. Blue Kryptonite is even back. I think if they really want to go there, Tales of the Bizzaro World is back.

In fact it was in the most recent Action Arc preceding the Legion arc.


Ok but can you think of any reason why Johns would do that?


Let's assume he doesn't even like them, let's assume he hates them more than he ever has any two characters that have ever existed....

Chemical King is dead and Tyroc is off in limbo forever.

So if he doesn't like them...they are already out of the picture and the only thing retconning them out would do is keep this from being as close to the Original Legion as you can get, which is what he is attempting to do.


I think it was simply a screw up on the art.


Or maybe there is a legitimate reason they aren't there, maybe it's a clue.


I still don't see any stories that require more than changing a couple of lines of dialogue...and of course Superboy won't be around publicly in costume in the Smallville stories. That's pretty relevant, but even that could change as soon as the litigation is resolved. Personally I kinda like that tweak....it makes the Legion more important.


But it doesn't really change much story wise. Like I said...that's an inch away...that's not the same as no Time Travel stories(because there is no reason for them to time travel), or replacing Superboy/girl with UltraBoy, Mon-El or Laurel Gand.

So, the fact that Brainy is not the original Brainy, descendent of Brainiac is fine, but Superboy being retconned out is? Or Starboy being supercrazy and staying years with JSA, while this was never ever in plot?

Sorry, this is a fake LSH. Just as much as TMK, but probably more, because it pretends to be as much original as possible, but disregarding almost 20 years of history and something else they will pretend never happened.

Do I really care? Not really. But it should hit the coffin nail on TMK bashers forever.

I still think it's really funny, all this debate about Superboy in the Legion and not so much for Supergirl--when it's been established that Kara joined before him!

Wonder why that is?

I guess the Superboy-belongs-in-the-Legion debate has more passionate participants than the who-joined-first controversy. :rolleyes:

Yeah, take my above post with tongue in cheek--it's my way to remind you guys of a discussion that fell by the wayside! Has anyone got a better explanation for why Supergirl joining first absolutely worked in the old continuity than what's been said? I'm just not sold on the 'too starstruck to attempt to recruit him first' explanation (especially given how just plain mean they were in his initiation) or the 'because they knew she would die young' one (because it extends the retcon too far bringing in something that would happen thirty years later that the writers at the time probably never dreamed would occur).

What I want is an explanation that would absolutely make sense from Jerry Siegel's perspective as creator of all three concepts when he wrote those stories!

(Obviously, I'm certain Siegel never intended this order, but maybe someone here has an angle that would make sense in the context of those early stories he wrote.)

Anyone?

You know those sites that show all the comic book covers for a particular series or character? I like to spend time looking at old covers. Some of my favorites are Doll Man, Captain Marvel Junior, and Superboy. Each one just seems to be a work of art. The covers tell stories all by themselves. Superboy had years of amazing covers in his own magazine and Adventure.

I really don't remember the first Superboy story I ever read. It just seems to me that he was always around. I certainly knew Superboy before I knew the Legion.

Remember when Superboy returned to Adventure for a brief time in the late 70's after the Legion had taken over his book? Those were some great stories.

One of my favorite Superboy stories is a Cary Bates story from DC Super Stars #7. Superboy becomes Superman. There is a pretty read haired girl and a Yeti involved.

I followed Superboy in his solo series after he left the Legion in the Psycho Warrior story. I read every Superboy story in Superman Family. As much as I didn't like Joe Staton's artwork on the Legion, I was just thrilled with the work he did on Superboy solo stories. I bought the series that was based on the live action television series. I know the names of the actors who played Superboy on TV.

I loved the time travel team up stories between Superman and Suberboy that were published in Super Team Family and DC Comics Presents.

I voted for Mike Grell on Cobalt Kid's favorite artist post. The main reason for this is because he drew the most amazing Superboy ever. I have a Grell Superboy image on my computer desk top.

I grew up in a small town in the midwest. I played Superboy as a kid. I pretended my town was named Smallville.

Some close freinds of mine had a baby boy a few years back. I put all my Superboy comics in fresh bags and boards and gave them to him has a gift. I hope some day he finds some inspiration and fun with them.

I think I qualify as a Superboy fan of absurb proportions.

I read the X-men when John Byrne was becoming a star. I loved those issues.

John Byrne made some homophobic remarks in an interview in the early 1980's. It made me mad. I got over it.

I tried a few issues of Next Men, but didn't like it. I liked what Byrne did with the Fantistic Four.

I enjoyed the Man of Steel mini seires. I liked some of the early post crisis Superman stories. I really liked the World of Krypton mini series.

I thought the Legends mini series was okay.

I was very disappointed in Byrne's run on Wonder Woman. The art felt rushed, and I thought it was pretty disrespectful of what Perez had done. I thought he only made things worse for Donna Troy.

I tried a couple issues of Byrne's Doom Patrol. I didn't get into it.

There are a lot of comic book artists and writers who sometimes do work that I like and sometimes do work that don't. There are some whose work I don't like at all. I really don't hate any of them.

By now, most of you know how I feel about the 5YL Legion, and the Legion in general. You can be a Superboy fan and love the 5YL. The two things are not cotradictory.

You can be a Legion fan and not hate John Byrne. Really, it is possible.

Wonderful post, Jerry, and a reasonable approach to the debate.

As I alluded to earlier, I agree with you that it makes much better sense that Kal joined first.

A few pages ago, Gary (Nightcrawler) put forth the interesting theory that the Legion approached Supergirl first so they could "kill two birds with one stone" and meet her more famous cousin as an adult. It's still an interesting theory, but the more I've thought about it, the less compelling I find it.

For one thing, this idea is not supported in any of the stories. It simply has never been mentioned or suggested in print that the Legion did this.

Second, it was SuperBOY who inspired the Legion, not SuperMAN, so they would have been more likely interested in meeting him as a contemporary. Certainly, they couldn't have asked Superman to join the teenaged Legion. So, the only real reason for meeting him would be just to meet him, as fans might. This seems to be a rather impractical use of time travel, then a relatively new technology, doesn't it?

Of course, this is all idle speculation. As Gary pointed out, it was long established, rightly or wrongly, that Supergirl joined first. That's no more an illogical premise than many things associated with the Legion.

Amen, my bruthah! I wonder if this will help those who feel the same, but fear going against the grain, to "out" themselves?

I like them both too. Legion with or without Superboy, Superman with or without Byrne.

What I don't like is Legion dumbed down and reintroduced as "youthful optimists" or as X-Men wannabes. Down with spandex and nicknames!

I know, but it just bugs the hell outta me, y'know? Given the goofy origin of this particular retcon, it's all just so damn arbitrary! I just want to know how this would make sense in context is all!

Okay, since no one asked , let me give it a try:

Let's say Brainy joined alongside Kara as shown but actually interacted with the Legion before what we saw. Though the time cube was Rond Vidar's invention, the Legion consulted Brainy, a noted intellectual, in their desire to admit the legendary Superboy. They needed him to help them figure out the ins and outs of the possible time paradoxes they could create by contacting him. Certainly, they didn't want to destroy their history in the process.

But Brainy also reminded them of Supergirl, Superboy's cousin, and suggested they might want to seek her for induction as well. His crush on her already nascent thru historical data and possibly time viewers, he came up with some perfectly logical-sounding mumbo-jumbo to convince his consultees that there would be smaller risk of creating a paradox if they made contact with her first.

So they followed his advice, but much to his chagrin as he watched from afar, she failed to be inducted because of her unfortunate contact with Red K. They didn't need much convincing from Brainy to try again before pursuing Superboy, as they found they liked her quite a bit during their first encounter.

But this time, Brainy couldn't help himself. He had to be closer to her and figured the best way to do so would be to try out as well. He wasn't motivated completely by his crush, though. He felt much guilt over what his ancestor had wrought and genuinely wanted to remove the taint from his legacy. Having consulted for the Legion, he had a good sense they were headed in the right direction.

So the story plays out as written and both Brainy and Supergirl are inducted, much to Brainy's delight. Afterward, he helps the Founders with the Superboy paradox, and they go on to seek him out, soon making him their next inductee. Hence, Brainy was there at the ceremony, and Supergirl had already joined.


So there you have it--it's not perfect, but based on the elements Siegel himself introduced, it seemed using Brainy as the motivation was the best way to go. Seems like it would have made a lovely 'flashback' story, to boot!

If 247 is the 'canon' Superboy induction ceremony, perhaps Brainy suggested the 'bubble-head' and other motifs in the costumes and power presentations to make it more in line with what would have been the '50s perception of what the future might be like.

I'm not sure how to explain the next-gen explanation the Legion used in her first appearance with them. Perhaps Brainy suggested it might put her at ease, so she wouldn't be intimidated knowing these very same people associated with the cousin she hero-worshipped. It would make her feel more like an equal than a reflection of Superman? Hey, that kinda works for me!

Any comments about my explanation?

More than likely some kid wrote a letter busting Mort on a continuity screwup like...

Reader Lad: How can Brainiac 5 have joined the Legion with Supergirl when he was already a member when Superboy joined and Superboy joined before Supergirl? Admit it, you goofed!

At which point Mort, who never lost an argument of that nature or was even stumped that I know of, probably came back with something like...


Mort: Actually, since the Legion was traveling back in time, the nature of time travel allowed them to approach Supergirl for membership first, and she actually joined first, before Superboy! No goof here! - Ed


And so it was.


You'd be amazed how much of Legion history came about because of exchanges like that...and it always worked...it always made sense.


Now compare that to the intellect that is John Byrne and his: "Don't be so anal, just pretend it never happened" approach...

If Mort had had that tude, the Legion wouldn't be the Legion.

As evidenced by the Pocket Universe Superboy "Fix" in which he completely ignored every Superman/Supergirl story...that sort of tit for tat outdueling the fans by Mort, that sort thing would have flown a hundred miles over Byrne's head, and he literally would have been overmatched by the 9 year olds asking those questions...even as an adult, in fact he was. Little wonder he hated the Legion as a kid - SB


Hey how come all you guys defending Byrne don't hold him to the same standards you hold his haters to?

He's the guy saying he hates the Legion and bashing Legion fans...more importantly, he's had a far bigger negative impact on their comics life than they have had on his...

I find this confusing.

He's goliath, he's the bully..and he spares no words on his opinion of the Legion.


He's honest and blunt, why should he be spared from the same sourt of commentary he doles out?


He hates the Legion and thinks it's stupid...I hate his Superman revamp and think he's stupid. I fail to see how I am being more offensive than he is.

I still have to get two more issues to complete it; I'll know more then. (And there's a big chapter on Levitz in the upcoming book Teenagers From the Future that will also inform my reading.) I'm going to wait until I can experience the whole thing before evaluating.

--

It's not that the discussions in this thread aren't interesting. And it's not that I'm not interested in the Legion's past; I am. But I'd rather that the past was something that informed the future than that it was something we just can't let go of. I've read a lot of people saying that Legion comics should be about nostalgia and stuff, and I can't disagree more: I think Legion comics, especially Legion comics, should be about the future.

It all sounds plausible, Lardy.

My only quibble is that I'd prefer to think that the Legionnaires chose to invite Kara to join on their own without Brainy having ulterior motives. Supergirl was as much an inspiration for the Legion as Superboy (as established in the Legion's origin story in SUPERBOY # 147). To not think of inviting her would be to diminish her importance as inspiration and hero in her own right.

After all, just because she died young does not mean she would not be famously remembered. From a historical perspective, it's just as likely that her death would increase her legendary status (e.g., JFK, John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix, Joan of Arc, etc.).

Here's the thing though - in a straight line, the Earth-1 Legion couldn't have existed in a universe where Crisis happened, because Earth-1 didn't LAST until the 30th century, but ended in the 20th. And, indeed, the LSH didn't "remember" it until the Crisis was affecting them directly, in their present, rather than just as an historical event.

So DID she die young in the Earth-1 timeline which could beget an Earth-1 Legion?

You would have to throw monkey wrench into all this, Reboot.

Yes, if we're talking about a post-Crisis universe, then we're talking about a Kara who died young. There's no way of knowing how long the Earth-1 Supergirl might have lived.

In either case, it's still evident that she was remembered into the 30th century during the original timeline.

Which original timeline is that?



It always made sense to me that Superboy was inducted before Supergirl, if you accept the idea that the Legion was inspired by him. They would just want to seek him out first. The original stories flow better that way. Really the only thing that contradicts it, is a few faces drawn in the wrong place at the wrong time. The artist made a mistake . The idea that Supergirl came first was one of the earlier Legion retcons. Lard Lad's explanation is as good as any I have seen, if we have to accept that scenario.

I don't think that the late Levitz Legion remembered Supergirl. The story where Brainiac 5 mourned her, occurred during that period of time where there were still some ripples of old reality bouncing around, before things finally settled into place, and nobody remembered Kara or the multiple Earths. When things finally settled down only the Psycho Pirate remembered.

Laurel Gand was a genius concept. She was a heavy hitter, who gave us some of the fun of the original concepts, was able to hold the place of both Supergirl and Superboy in some of the early tales, and emerged as an independent character in her own right. Not Supergirl. Not Supergirl lite. Not a complete replacement, but a stand in who brought some of her own talents to the role. She was a good mix of honoring the past and moving forward all at the same time.

Things are even more complicated now, if we try to figure out if or how, Supergirl shared any advetures with the approximation of the original Legion that we saw in Lightning Saga and Action.
We have the matrix Supergirl, the orignal Supergirl, and the new Supergirl to consider. None of them completely work. We could just say that Supergirl didn't interact with them at all, which further erodes the argument that this is the original Legion, IMO. It's a valid point of discussion, and an issue that the team that works on this new version of the Legion should address. I doubt that they will be able to find a solution that matches the genius of Laurel Gand.