Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

A Kal-El Superboy also appeared in ZH as well.

And Superboy and Supergirl both appeared in a ZH Legion story by Stern...I think it was called if I could turn back time or something...

But it's not the same...it's not the fix.


I don't buy it...


Obviously, the best point to pick up the continuity is at the point it was broken, the COIE...but of course Supergirl was still a problem.


Are you certain Supergirl isn't in the history?

Has anyone actually seen Johns say that?

That Countdown Supergirl and KK/Una story could be a screw up...they also might have been mindwiped.


Becaus what I know is that he's fixing to be writing the Supergirl book...

And he has introduced a 20th century Laurel Gand I believe as well... so the Supergirl stories could be back with the Time Travel context back in...even if she is called Laurel Gand. That's closer than anything done in the 5YG.


And the Time Trapper can retcon anything...right there on the spot.

Everyone was certain the original JSA, JLA and Legion crossover wasn't in the history...lo and behold, it is now.

It wasn't the in the 5YG continuity...


It's extremely complex...Johns doesn't have all the answers yet...why should he attempt to give all the answers before he has them?


At least it happened in some way

Seriously do you guys seriously believe Mon-El being replaced with Superboy is the same sort of retcon as the Legion not tormenting him and him not appearing in costume?

It's still Superboy(Kal-El) meeting the Legion for the first time...and becoming a member...unlike the 5YG, unlike the ZH. That's what Advnture Comics #247 about...the personalities have always changed.


Is this the same Matthew E I sent some free copies of the EarthWar to because he had never read it?

I'm working on him...he likes all Legions, I respect that, even if I don't agree with him that they are equal. He also wasn't aware of the Legions drop in sales rank that was not in correlation with the comics buying audience...hopefully he is now since I provided those figures to the board...I had him in mind when I did it.

I see speculation on that, what I haven't seen is any proof they are right. IT's just specualtion, nothing ironclad is out there, and it's because it hasn't all been figured out yet.

But why does everyone assume Chemical King and Tyroc aren't back? Can anyone think of a good reason why they wouldn't be?

Maybe Eaglesham screwed up...maybe there's a reason they aren't there relevant to the L3W?


I consider Superman to be an essential element of the Legion, and I've yet to see any evidence that I am wrong.

I haven't seen a creator disagree with me either...not even John Byrne.


It's not a bigger divergence...this Superboy actually was Superman in the Action Legion. The other was a puppet...


And actually, what we hoped, when ZH occurred, when the 5YG was launched, when the SW6 batch appeared, when the W&K launched, was that they were going to fix it, as they were promising and teasing....instead they kept rebooting, or relaunching Legion's with the same problem...no Superman, the most important Legionaire.

And just to prove I'm not devoid of cynicism...DC could do the exact same thing all over again, promise to fix it, then reneg and give the same Superman Free Legion back to the fans...


I full well realize that the surviving Legion, could be the W&K...with Superman never having been a member and several Pre Crisis Versions of Legionaires retconned in...with the surviving Legion given some sort of endorsement by Superman...never to team up again.

It certainly could happen...but I've learned not to be that cynical with Johns...he's smarter than most of the writers that have attempted this sort of thing.


Given the state of the Superboy litigation it's certainly a possiblity.

But all I know is that for now, Superman is back...and that would have shut up a lot of people at any point in the past 20 years.

As for the other "speculated" inconsistencies...

I don't know that Krypto isn't back...Krytpo is back in the Superman continuity...how does anyone know the Superpets aren't back?

Has Johns said so?


Johns likes Krypto...he has him fight Superboy Prime all the time you know. I'll be surprised if Krypto doesn't show up in the L3W.


IF the promise is again broken...it won't be the fault of Johns...anymore than it was the fault of Waid and Giffen etc.


And unlike previous fixes...Johns has more pull than anyone, pretty much DC's entirely livelyhood right now is resting on him and Grant Morrison.

That's me.

-I don't think all Legions are equal as in equal; I think they're equal as in "All men are created equal".
-I was aware of the drop in sales; I just don't pretend to understand the numbers, and all their contributing factors, fully. Although your thing about the sales figures that you posted here was very informative.

Okay, about the Byrne thing, I completely understand the sentiments behind the Haterade lots of Legion fans drink up when talking about him and what his Superman reboot did to the Legion. I accept the proof that's been presented that Byrne never cared for the Legion and wasn't exactly crying over what his reboot did to them. I get that.

But ultimately, DC brass has ultimate culpability for what happened to them, not Byrne. It's their company, their property, so they had ultimate veto power in this. Byrne had no power over them.

The fact is that, at the time, Byrne was the hottest writer/artist in the business. Combining his star power and proven track record with its flagship character simply made DC execs see dollar signs. In the end DC let Byrne do what he wanted to do because all they cared about was the money and exposure they would get with him on board! Does anyone remember that the Superman reboot actually made the cover of Time magazine? I read the article when it was published and it's heart was an interview with John Byrne in which he explained to the readers exactly what kinds of changes were to be put in place.

This is why DC went with the radical revamp/reboot of Superman. They knew it would bring attention and help their bottom line tremendously. But whatever the reasons, it is ultimately the faults of the DC execs for allowing each and every change that was made to their flagship character, including Superboy's elimination and all the other things that would eventually be done to plague the Legion.

NOT JOHN BYRNE!!!

And let's not forget that Byrne did participate in the crossover that attempted to salvage Legion history as best as it could, in light of his changes. History tells us it didn't do the job. But if left alone, the Legion stories would pretty much all have been preserved. Yes, I do feel that making the Legion not part of the real Superman legacy was damaging in itself, but it was an honest attempt at the time. Certainly, with the type of influence he had, Byrne didn't have to lend his name to help with any attempt to fix the Legion.

Like I said, I don't refute any of the points Superboy and others have made. I'm just placing the ultimate blame where it belongs. Am I cut from the Byrne-hater mold that most posters here and online in general seem to be cut from? No, I'm not, and that may color how others view this post. But I honestly don't see how anyone can say I'm wrong in where I'm placing ultimate blame here.

by the way...to He Who Wanders, a request:

In your ongoing series of "revisited" threads would you consider doing one on LSH Vol. 4 #5 (TMK)? Personally, I think this is one of the single best (and one of the most important historically, for better or worse) Legion issues ever published, and I'd love to see it get your 'Revisited' treatment, even if it turns out your views differ significantly on it than mine.

Please consider it at some point if you have the inclination and the time.

Waid Quote :I've always said that we didn't kill The Legion.John Byrnes Superman relaunch was the bullet.We just pulled the plug.(From the Legion Companion page 213)
And if I remember correctly Mike Carlin was the Enforcer of the no Kal-El policy in the Legion.

It's really simple if you look at it this way,The Legion and their fans got Sold Out by Byrnes Superman relaunch,Thirty years of Continuity of a top selling title flushed down the toilet,In their opinion sacrificed for the betterment of DC's flagship Character Superman,Did It work for the Legion,Hell No!
Did it Work for Superman,well it did for a while I guess,But I think it would have worked just as well with the Legion still part of his history.
So I think Byrne and Carlin are to blame for the Legion's demise.
The only thing I blame Waid or Giffen for is that their versions of the Legion were not The Legion I knew and failed to live up to them.

Thanks Matt.

What'd you think of the Earthwar so far compared to Levitz other stuff?


And those figures will get a lot more revealing.

It worked out well for a while(when Byrne was on the title) but I think it actully hurt Superman...

The Legion was something that made Superman unique...it was actually probably the best addition to his mythos, it's certainly been the most successful.


How was it so easy for him to be the greatest hero? Because he'd faced far more advanced threats, villains and technology as a kid than he would have to face as an adult.

And he had the most powerful group of body guards ever assembled while he was doing it.


Heck...Element Lad would have been enough...Element Lad erased the Superman Servant like he was nothing with 2 waves of his hand.


How come the social issues of today, he always seem to be unfazed by compared to other heroes? he always seem to not be worried about it or have an answer...

Because he already knew Earth and mankind would move beyond those issues...

And how come every once in a while, it almost seemed as if he had 30+ guardian angels looking out for him...

Because every once in a while, he did.


No other heroes had that kind of mythology.

And while I'm at it, does anyone here think that Byrne is the only one who might have eliminated Superboy from the mythos if given the carte blanche that Byrne was given? Obviously, I have no anecdotes to share, but Byrne was obviously influenced to a degree by the success, commercially and artistically, of Superman: The Movie in his reinterpretation. It's no stretch that other writers, given the same opportunity, might have also used the film for inspiration, including how it depicted a Superman making his heroic debut.

Let me play Devil's advocate for a moment. Legion and everything else aside, the existence of his career as Superboy does lessen Superman's importance and impact to an extent. It puts Superboy as the first superhero of his era, not Superman! Maybe some would just say that's just semantics or something, but that's exactly what his creation did! So you can see how it would be tempting to excise that part of his history to some young, hot creator out to "fix" what many (I know, not all) thought had become a stagnant character with stagnant sales.

Is there any guarantee that Frank Miller, Walt Simonson or whomever else DC might've turned to wouldn't have hit on the same idea? No! Someone didn't have to hate Superboy or the Legion to come up with that revamp. If DC's goal was to make Superman more relevant, edgy or Marvel-like, then someone probably would've done the same thing, if not Byrne.

But since Byrne was the one who actually did it, he's like the anti-Christ or something. And of course it's amplified because he never liked the Legion, and some people contend his vendetta against Shooter and some sick desire to destroy one of Shooter's babies was always his whole reason for taking the Superman job in the first place. Come ON!

But I contend that someone else may very well have done more or less the same thing, if not him. And I'll remind everyone of DC's culpability in all this, once again.

Does this mean I'm happy with all that was done and how it crippled the Legion? No. You've all read my rants here enough to know I wish it had never happened. But I'm not sure all of what happened is ever really put in the proper perspective.

We'll see how people respond to this, but I expect to be the Lorax here fighting alone against all my damn trees being cut down.

I gotta hate Byrne...it just feels right. I was mad at him about it before he even did it. Every interview he gave when he was doing it made me more and more mad.

But you are right DC didn't think the Legion fans would really care...or maybe they didn't really understand what they were doing, or maybe they were worried about the litigation even then and that's why they were amenable to Byrne's erasing of their third most successful character.

Maybe, they thouht that would lower the value should they ever have to negotiate for those rights again. Plus, should they lose the rights, if they limit his appearances, they won't have to pay that much...so they just keep teasing hte fixes and stringing it out.

And it never really worked...all their other relaunches worked, often better than ever before. Flash, WonderWoman, Batman, even Superman, the JLI, and even the Grand Old JSA

...but the Legion didn't, because it was fundamentally changed.


That could be it...


At the same time, I don't expect compassion, integrity or respect from corporations. They are not human beings, and it's not a matter of should they act like human beings,...it's a matter of they aren't ever going to.

But I do expect those things from the human individuals with influence over them, to keep rest of us humans from getting squashed...and Byrne had that influence. More than any other single human at that time.

Well Superboy is a separate character than Superman, he had a separate licensing fee, separate copyright...isn't it possible that Donner/Salkinds did that because it would have cost more or been more complicated to use those rights together? Maybe they wanted to use Superboy for a TV show?


And Donner introduced a brand new Superboy just a couple of years ago...


Never seemed to hurt Spiderman being the first of his era...


Look people like John Byrne I understand it...but I don't really see how his actions are defensible, he tread upon us heavily.


No...but I can guarantee you they'd have been on my S-list as bad as Byrne if they had.

I never understood the argument that it made him more Marvel like...Marvel had a ton of heroes start out as teens...including Spiderman and the X-Men.

More likely what those creators didn't like was the overly simplistic stories the chracters is associated with...but Alan Moore proved that's up to the writer...

Which character did the anti-christ eliminate from Legion history? *checking notes*

True...he's not sparing us any sympathy, he's being completely blunt, is it wrong to respond likewise?

Truthfully? I don't think Byrne is smart enough to hit a perfect bullseye like that...only Karate Kid could find the weak spot that effectively. Still...it feels good to blame Byrne for it.


And personally I think he enjoys playing the Villain to Legion Fans.


I know but who you get mad at about it at DC? It doesn't feel as good to get mad at DC about it...I almost expect them to do that sort of thing. If the creators don't watchdog, who will?

If it makes you feel any better, I am mad at Levitz about it...but I already know what will happen if I let my opinion fly on him here.

There are some other Byrne Fans...you aren't alone, pretty much anytime I get on an anti-Byrne rant he's got fans that will defend him.

That confuses me, because I never attack his art...

Corporations are not human beings, but they are comprised of human beings. Jenette Kahn was Editor-in-Chief at the time. She, Dick Giordano and, yes, Paul Levitz were among the human beings who were the power players at the time at DC. Do you hate them, too? If not, why not?

As has been brought up before, why didn't Paul stop it from happening? He wasn't just a writer; he was one of their biggest execs even then, leading to his present role as President. He was one of those "...responsible for hiring..." Byrne for the job! Why didn't he work to spare Superboy? Or did he think the Pocket Universe fix was good enough?

If Byrne was the LSH's ultimate super villain, then Kahn, Giordano and Levitz (and Carlin) rounded out his Fatal Five!

I'm fine with people wanting to hate Byrne; that's they're perogative. But when it comes to what happened to the Legion, I can't help but wonder why our man Paul Levitz doesn't get a lot more flack for it than Byrne does. I guess it all boils down to Byrne's overall rep vs. Levitz's, and no one wants to look closer in this particular case.

Yeap...I will always view her as part of the machine.

Part of the machine...


It's hard to hate anoher Legion Fan? Especially one that wrote arguably the greatest arc ever.

I've thought about this, I could have seen this as easily being something Levitz would have mentioned behind close doors...he's not a confrontational type...I doubt he'd have wound up the publisher if he was.

But yeah...he's part of the machine, sadly.


None of them are champions of the people like the creators are supposed to be.

It's like we support them in their fights against the corporation for their rights etc, and they keep us from being tread upon by using their influence in a benevolent manner when the opportunity arises...if they don't do that, they are part of the machine.


Because Paul Levitz the Legion writer lost the battle to Paul Levitz the corporate ladder climber...and I do think Paul mentioned it..and probably was refuted...


Just like he was with his attempt to bring Supergirl in as Sensor Girl.


But he is part of the machine now...and he's not my favorite creator either. Nor is his Legion soley my favorite. I don't like the end of his run. And I dont' really want to see him back on the book.


Levitz is Nemesis Kid...Byrne is the Time Trapper.

IMO, it's like that.

No...I'm just not foolish enough to go after Levitz on this board. Besides...he did write the GDS. And he did try to bring Supergirl in.

Well, the FF were first in that era, but I'm not arguing Superboy's teen-ness at all, just that having a whole earlier career can be argued as lessening the later career when Superman is the core of the mythos.

Spider-man was a teen when he started and aged from there. I think Superman was definitely more widely known when he grew up in continuity, but he still had this career as Superboy first and was publicly known, though possibly to a lesser extent than he would be.

It's different than, say, telling a tale of Logan before he was Wolverine because the stories aren't about Young Wolverine fighting super villains and being in the public limelight and essentially being Wolverine before he was Wolverine!

That's what I mean. Does that make sense?

The latter probably better illustrates the "Marvel-like" quality, I think. But Marvel also didn't take a marquee character like Iron Man and tell stories of him as Iron Boy set in his past, either. (Again, I'm not criticizing the Superboy concept, here, but playing devil's advocate)

It's okay...I did it for you!

Dude, I'm not that big of a Byrne fan, anymore. That's not where all my defense of him is coming from. I'm more objective on the issue, I guess, and I want people to see things from a more objective perspective. Byrne's treated like Hitler in Legion fandom, and I don't think that's fair.

And as an addendum, losing the "Superboy" name may actually help DC fix the lessening aspects Superboy had on Superman (as I discussed above) in the way they're handling Johns' version. If I'm reading this correctly, all of young Clark's adventures would have only happened in the future (and possibly in the present, but covertly, like in the Smallville series) without there being any 'super boy' preceding Superman publicly in the DCU. Kind of a nice nip and tuck there if this is indeed what DC's doing.

Re: Byrne's reasons for disliking the Legion and Giffen's reasons for repeatedly killing off Karate Kid.

It's comments like these that make me think that some comics creators should seek counseling.

It's obviously impossible to know what another creator would have done with the Superboy-less Legion, but Byrne's comments seem geared to draw fan ire to him like flies to a dung heap. It could be that he does this intentionally in order to generate controversy (after all, look at how much space has been devoted to discussing him in this thread, and none of it even references any current projects he's working on!) It could be that he's an arrogant SOB who really doesn't care what Legion fans think.

In any case, it's easy to second guess him, Levitz, Kahn, Giordano, and the rest at this remove. I prefer to think that they thought they were doing what was best for the company overall, even though it involved some hard decisions.

I'm less willing to cut Waid slack, however; that he and KC Carlson couldn't think of a way to salvage Legion history other than rebooting does not increase my confidence in his creativity. You want to salvage Legion continuity? You want to return it to a former period of glory? Two words: Bobby Ewing.

Of course, having Shady wake up from a dream and finding an uninjured Mon-El in the shower might have upset Legion fans, too. But we'd have gotten over it much quicker, I think, than we have gotten over the reboot (which some of us still haven't put behind us. )

If I was to assign Legion roles to Legion creators, post crisis it'd go something like this:

Byrne = Time Trapper

Kahn
Giordano
Carlin = The Dark Circle(or maybe the Khunds)

Levitz = Nemesis Kid

Giffen = Brainiac 5(not just the good one, the one that creates Computo as well)

Waid = Dev-Em(getting cloned by the Dark Circle) or maybe the Pocket Universe Supereboy

Most of other post crisis writers = Dev Em's Dark Circle Clones...or maybe the Pocket Universe Legion.

I shouldn't do it, but let's go. I'll try not to quote in here, because there are far too many things to be quoted...
One spoiler, however: books arrive 2 months old in here. So I just got my package with Dreamwars #1, Action Legion final ish and LSH 40.

Lard Boy got once again Superboy in his weakness (hahaha), IMO. Any return to any period of LSH would be arbitrary. I don't think it is logical, for instance, to return LSH to the period before the Pocket Universe Saga. One could argue that the Pocket Universe didn't deny the existence of a Superboy and much less his inspiration to the LSH. So, one could say that the nail was at LSH v4 #4, where any reference to Superman was officially erased. Something else else true to this day, at least as we say the true LSH book.

Whatever Johns is cooking is clearly a overtly retconned/rebooted LSH book/history. He might do what I think it was one of TMK's idea (and also Mark Waid - he was LSH editor at that time and this apparently came up on a lettercol), which was to fill in the "original" retconned story of LSH during the run and over special editions, which obviously never came up except for one item. Remember: Mayfair's book on LSH had a LOT of unseen info on 5YG and probably anticipated all ARGs by over a decade!!!

After finally reading the final chapter of Action Legion, it seems to me that the burden of Multiverse/52 Worlds soon-to-be-shaken status will fall on L3W. Final Crisis will deal with aspects of the DC Universe that seem unrelated to the multiverse, so far. In fact, Morrison hardly dealt with that during his tenure on 52 and 7 Soldiers. All these decisions seem to be falling on Johns. Since he clearly mentioned that the Crisis ends in the 31st Century, that might open the possibility for a major retcon.

And, no, I didn't enjoy the ending of it. Coy and frankly nostalgic, it is a 180 degrees spin on Superman history post-Crisis. I see our Superboy cheering. I don't. I never thought Superboy was an essence of Superman and, as you said, he was a different character. So much Superboy was never the loner that even Johns concedes to Superman on that final chapter.

But I am stretching too far now...

PS: As Lard Lad perfectly says again, Superboy always seemed to detract from Superman. And that's for me the major strength of Byrne's concept. His major weakness was maybe transforming Superman into a more God-like figure, while his previous persona was much more ambiguous.

I think Byrne obviously enjoys his role as a Legion Villain...at the same time, I think we've been enough of a pain to him to where he feels obligated to explain why he did what he did to the Legion in the FAQ at his site.

Seriously though...I think Byrne enjoys his villain role. He plays it to the hilt in the comments on his forum.

Thanks for the suggestion, Lardy. I'll look into it.

To me it makes perfect sense...it's always been the spot I thought they should start up from. Because it's the spot where things to started to go badly for the book. That's where it stopped being the Legion...and losing popularity. That's exactly when it started. Dead perfect bullseye. \


The fact that Johns sees this sort of thing, is why he's so successful at revamping characters.


It's easiest to fix the Legion if you pick it up where Johns is picking it up from.


I'd say Byrne's version was the nostalgia version...his Superman from the movie, and Superman from Action Comics #1.


If DC put this Action Legion in a title..it will smoke any Legion produced since the COIE in terms of sales and popularity IMO.


Superman without Superboy is not the modern Marvel version...it's the Golden Age Dawn of Comics version...the Legion was the modern addition. Not the nostalgia.

RIght now as we read the Action Legion, these are the only inconsistencies Johns has left to deal with for every Pre Crisis story to be in continuity:


1. Supergirl. Unlike Waid, Giffen, Jurgens etc he's got Kara Zor-El. Her role in the crisis may be screwed up...but her role in the Legion is easily fixable...all Johns has to do is put her in it...and they all happened again.


2. Superpets - Comet and Streaky are all he has to come up with...that's easily done.


3. Honorary Legionaires - Pete Ross, Instec Queen, Jimmy Olsen

All he's got to do is say they were in there...the memories of the Insect Queen could have been erased.

After all...Turtle Boy Olsen just headlined the penultimate battel of Countdown...Elastic Lad in the Legion is too hokey?

4. Karate Kid's solo series and his death at the hands of Nemesis Kid. The solo series could easily have happened...and all they have to do is go clone him or go back in time and save him to bring him back from the dead.


5. Tyroc and CK. They are written out of storylines or dead. Why wouldn't he bring them back? All Johns has to do is say they existed. Boom...problem sovled. They aren't a challenge in any way.


6. Wildfire/Red Tornado - Maybe Wildifire and Red Tornado hooked up after we last saw the original Legion...Johns didn't say Wildfire had alays been Red Tornado...maybe he got an improved suit(RT's body).


Those are the only issues he has to deal with to fix every Legion story....

The snag always, in every fix, the impossible one was Kara Zor-El...and she is back. Unlike the situaton at the time of the 5YG and ZH.


Ricardo...the PU Story destroys any chance of Supergirl being in the Legion, and all tales of the Legion to the 20th century(and there are many, not just in Superboy stories)...that's why it's a bad pick up point. It didn't work at the time they did it.

Oh yeah, one other issue...Superboy, Supergirl, Mon-El being able to travel time without a time bubble...personally, that's something that needs to stay gone, or at least be more limited beyond deus ex machina level...but just for the sake of argument...

Believe it or not, Jim Shooter just provided that piece of the puzzle in the most recent issue of Legion...


Unlimited Speed for Flight rings....Boom.

If you have Invulnerability...maybe combined with Superspeed, those rings can break the time barrier on the right characters(gotta be able to use speed and invunerability at the same time).

You forgot that so far in the whole history so far of the new Superman, he didn't even mention the existence of a LSH. It makes even less sense he kept it as a secret. Also, his portrait of "becoming Superman when he is in the future" sounds bogus, to say the least.
Sorry, it is as bad as Pocket Universe. Which works as a story, but it doesn't change the gravity of the retconning.

And that's not to say it is awful or something like that. It's just to prove that IT IS AS MUCH AS RETCON as anything prior to Zero Hour.

This Superman has only been around since the first issue of OYL at the end of Infinite Crisis...Apr of 2006 or so. Superboy was mentioned as returning at the end of IC...and the Lighting Sage Legion was introducd in the JLA in Apr of 2007.

One year isn't long...especially since that first year was chronicling One Year Later, and not Year One.


This is a new Superman, this is not the Byrne Superman. This Superman has elements of Pre and Post Crisis in history...and none of the original Legion stories involving him have been eliminated from any known continuity. Nor is he required to be replaced by Valor in any of them...

In fact Valor is gone, and Mon-El is back..it's easy to see they are different characters.

It's not as much of a retcon...not nearly, it's also not a negative retcon. It's a postive retcon...it's the negative retcons people don't like.


Like I say...tell me a Pre Crisis Legion story that you know hasn't happened to this Action Legion..with the original cast and in the original setting.


There's not one...not a single one has been eliminated. People are just speculating that they have been...


That said...it's not going to be the original Legion exactly, but it's maybe an inch away from it, as opposed to the mile or further away from it of all Post Crisis Legions.


IF Supergirl isn't around...then we'll start talking and comparing it to the Pocket Universe. .

It'll still be better though...it's got the Superboy that was Superman back...so more original stories will fit...like the original JSA JLA Legion Teamup.