Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

About Supergirl, one of the things many of you are missing is that she was continually published from her debut until her death in CoIE. I am a big DC archives fan and did not realize this until learning it on an archives forum a few years back, but Supergirl had a very long run in Action in the 1960's. Basically while the Legion was running in Adventure, Kara was in Action. Eventually the two features switched places, and then we got the brief 1970's Supergirl solo title. After that Supergirl moved to the Superman Family title (along with Jimmy and Lois)in the mid 1970's and had a long run there until the early 1980's Supergirl title was launched.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the early 70's bronze age was much like the golden age in that only a handful of characters headlined titles, but the backup series were just as important in selling the titles. Green Lantern, Aquaman, Hawkman, and Atom all went to backup status. The Titans were cancelled and Legion of
course had its own struggles. So Supergirl was in good company with these other major characters.

During this time Supergirl was very well known to the general public though due to licensing. Besides the Mego action figure, Supergirl was all over DC merchandise of the day - from lunch boxes to organizers on down. After Wonder Woman, Supergirl (and then Batgirl) was DC's next female character they would go with for licensed products. At that time, it was typical to see this character assortment on licensed goods : Superman, Batman, Robin, Wonder Woman, Supergirl, and Shazam. Note - no Green Lantern, Flash, Green Arrow, Aquaman, etc.

As mentioned previously, until CoIE turned the industry on its ear and company-wide crossovers became the norm, it was still rare that characters would cross over from one title to another in the 60's and 70's. With Supergirl, she was under the control of Weisinger, and he rarely let his toys out of the toy box for others to play with. But Supergirl DID belong to a team during this time, she belonged to the Legion!

One other thing. I think the reason Supergirl's connection to the Legion was played down in the 1970's was due to the time paradox. You've got the Legion title following Superboy's timeline, which is in the current day DCU's past. But you have Supergirl as a member and she is from current day DCU and Superman's time, and SuperMAN is in the Legion's "future". Confusing no?

It will be interesting to see where Johns takes things in Lo3W because we will have a Legion with Superman, a Legion with Supergirl, and a Legion with Superboy Kon-El - which seems like something he would pick up on.

Now, THAT's a good argument, CB! Probably the best arguing her pre-Crisis significance to date, actually. Lunch boxes? Organizers? A mego figure? Continuous publication? Pretty compelling!

I'm still working my way through the 5YL series (Largely due to the fact that I'm working 12 hrs a day seven days a week right now) but I have to admit that while I like some of the characters introduced during the 5YL much more than I thought I would, the art and storytelling are even worse than I remembered.

I'm up to LOTR and will be finished soon, I'll have some more specific comments in a few days.

Appreciate the timely update, Chuck, and I look forward to your more in-depth analysis when it comes. Good to hear, at least, that you're getting some good out of your investment!

(sorry to hear about the rough work schedule, by the way. )

Good point. Worldwide, more people are aware of Alfred Pennyworth or Lois Lane than the Blue Beetle or Metamorpho the Element Man.
Still though, lots of folks, even some that aren't comic oriented, have heard about a super hero team that has aa insane number of members. Roll call can last for weeks, it's quite a joke at nerd parties.

I remember that GWB once claimed, in the heat of a campaign speech, that he and the Governator together were "..a legion of super heroes!" It's the only example I can think of where a sitting (or any for that matter) President makes a reference to a comic book.

So the Legion has some sort of official subculture status even in the mainstream. I don't know if that earns us any brownie points but it really can't hurt.

Yes--and an interesting thing I just found out : He was voiced by Pat Harrington, Jr., later Schneider of One Day at a Time.

Yep. It was Mego. Here's a current eBay offering.

RE: Supergirl

Well gang consider me convinced...never let it be said that I wasn't willing to change my opinion on something when given evidence to the contrary.

I wasn't aware Supergirl was that merchandised during the 70's.

Anyway, I did concede that she was a name known out of comics...

But I still contend she was bigger after Crisis than she was before...it happens.


He Who...I think being a legacy character does make a character more important, but I don't think it guarantees importance...I think it's a factor. And it depends on the legacy as well..with GL and Flash and any of their inheritors immediately becoming a high profile and important DC Uni character...a central character, a cornerstone of the Universe.


All of the Legacy characters get some sort of boost just from the name....even the Atom, although I don't think the boost was enough to make him truly relevant, even with his publication in the JLA.

5YG:

I am surprised at so much confusion over why Johns didn't bring that back as the original...it's simple, because Superman wasn't a part of it, the same reason many of us have cited it could never be the original. I never thought it was a minor retcon...Johns obviously doesn't either. I don't think Giffen and the Bierbaum's consider it a minor one either truthfully.

And at what point is the 5YG brougth back and who brings it back?

Before Giffen left? The fact that a creator would define the continuity pretty much hammers home the point about it not being the original. And most 5YG fans I know of, hate the part after Giffen left.

Who brings it back? Johns writes nothing like Giffen does...

If Giffen brings it back at the points he wants, they are going to be clones of the original Legion and wind up calling themsevles the Omega Men.

Me personally? I don't want it back beyond the Superman reasons...because so many characters I liked were dropped from the title, or killed, or changed to a completely unrecognizable form.

I like Sunboy...I like Wildfire(in the suit)...I like Phantom Girl, Dawnstar. I like them much better than I ever will the 5YG Legion.


Now if you are talking about the SW6 aspect of the 5YG, with Superman retconned back in...

That could work...but that team was basically Adventure Era...you will cut out a lot of Pre Crisis stories if you take that approach.


As for the Johns...
Is this one truly the original? No, in fact it's a different Earth...but it's closer to the original as I define it, than the 5YG is...it's even closer than the PU Superboy Legion is due to the fact that the Legion stories with Superman in them, are now back in continuity(like the JLA JSA teamup).

Better example?

My favorite Legion story ever didn't happen in any recognizable form in the 5YG Legion...Adventure Comics #369-370, the introduction of Mordru. This was a huge issue to me...huge.

That's my favorite Legion story, it's the reason I am a Legion fan...and I consider it to be one of the best comic stories ever, not just a Legion story...and it didn't happen in the 5YG Legion in any way remotely resembling the Pre Crisis version of the story. It couldn't have...I am not even talking about one or two characters being changed...I am talking about the entire setting of the story.


As for some of the other points brought up by Jerry:

It has been stated Superman had a covert career as Superboy in Smallville, by Busiek and Johns at the beginning of Busiek's run...the reason you haven't seen it is because of the Superboy litigation.


I'm not even sure Supergirl wasn't a part of this Legion. KK and Una may have had their minds blacked out the same way Superboy's often was.

A lot the questions you want answers too will probably be answered in the L3W...but ultimately if the 5YG is your favorite...those answers are not going to satisfy you. I will continue to feel it is more of a stretch to consider that the original Legion, than I will the version I have seen from Johns.


Even if Superman was retconned into the 5YG Legion, as Giffen wanted to do..I would still have a hard time calling it the original, and it still would not be my favorite version.


But you are absolutely right...the details become much more of an issue when you don't like the Legion in question.


As for calling it the original...I try to call it the Action Legion, but it doesn't bother me near as much to hear it called the original, as it has for 20 years now when I hear the 5YG called the original. THe way you probably feel is much the same way I felt when I was told the 5YG was the original. Welcome to my world.

As for the Vi Yera deal...maybe the anti-alien sentiment was greater than their differences? And their mutal survival depended on them getting over it?


In any case...it isn't truly the original Legion...I'll admit that easily. But it's as close as we are likely to get IMO and it's looking like it will be close enough for me.


I don't consider it adding the Pre Crisis Legion to the Post Crisis Superman...the current Superman isn't the Post Crisis Superman...the Post Crisis Superman wasn't Superboy, this current one was.

Superboy... I was just having fun with the whole Supergirl being important/not-important and then you come slashing through 5YG thinking you would come unnoticed?

One: Johns is not considering the 5YG simply because it is not even considering The Magic Wars or anything that happened AFTER Crisis. That is the whole premise of L3W. Any other explanation would be not only too arbitrary but plainly stupid, considering it is a Final Crisis tie-in.
Again, 5YG is more LSH than Action Legion will ever be. The first one made history its strength. Action Legion makes nostalgia its strength. Hell, I just became a LSH hardcore fan AFTER 5YG. This run made LSH find - for me - its true potential as an ambitious plain for storytelling.
Like it or not, 5YG was always about LSH legacy and history, in spite of retcons, reboot or whatever you call it. Without those past histories and foundations, it would be an excellent book, but not even 1/3 of its full potential. Hell, I had to go through finding old LSH stories to dig through it! That's how challenging it was! And that's the biggest homage to LSH history I can find.

Ricardo, I already know I'm not going to change your mind...I'm not even going to attempt it. I'll just say that IMO, Giffen himself backs up the point that it isn't the original...even if you don't take into account he wanted Superman in it...he was going to make them clones.


So I'll ask you and all the 5YG fans the question again..

If the 5YG was to be brought back...

At what point in it's continuity is it brought back?

You yourself admit to intensely disliking the book after Giffen left.


Who brings it back?

Only Giffen could bring it back...

And you know what Giffen is going to do if he brings it back?

1. He's going to ressurect Karate Kid(old and young versions) and kill them again.

2. He's going to retcone Superman back into it.

3. He's going to make the older Legion the clones, kill a bunch of Legionaires off, and spin the older survivors off into a title call the Omega Men.


And you know what he'll do if he doesn't do that stuff? Something else else completely different that no one will conceive of before he does it.


I mean do you guys honestly think you are going to get Keith Giffen to write the stories you want him to tell? Impose your vision of his team over his own?

Giffen doesn't work that way. At all.


IF every one likes his art...he'll change it into something completely different.

IF everyone likes his writing, he'll come up with something completely different.

If everyone thinks they know what kind of stories he should and will be writing...he'll do nothing of the kind.

You cannot impose your vision on him...he will do just the opposite of what you want, if only just for the hell of it.


If everyone all of a sudden embraced his Clone Omega Men Idea...that would no longer work for Giffen...he'd probably turn them into cats or something.

He's been doing that his entire career...especially to Legion Fans.


I am just curious as to what you 5YG fans think would happen if that 5YG were brought back.

I think you are sticking to much into the idea I am looking for the "original" Legion. As far as I know, people have proved here that LSH hasn't been exactly "original" from the start. However, 5YG is rooted into LSH past. ZH LSH is not. 3boot is not. Everything happened before has NEVER happened. 5YG does change some facts, but the core is the same - past is retconned, but not wiped/ignored. You have to consider that.

I never asked for Giffen to come back necessarily to "restart" where he left off, even though the fanboy in me want that (and my cut would be exactly where he left off, LSH #40). But I am aware it will never happen.

What I want and would expect is an adult LSH written in the same level of experimentation and maturity of 5YG. How to do that? Well, we can always do what Johns is doing: come up with a twist that makes it work. Maybe the SW6 came from an alternate timeline where adult LSH still exists. Or Superboy-Prime (the cannon fodder of Johns) wants to bring Earth back from destruction. I don't care.

What I don't want is a series focused on:

- Cool names such as XS and Gates
- Nice spandex ("I think Gary Franks design for Wildstar does not respect blablabla...")
- Lots of action/ fistfights
- Small core group (like Waid did)
This is X-Men for me. And since Claremont, I have no interest about them. Except for that wonderful X-Force by Milligan & Allred.

By the way, I don't expect this to happen ever. Just like Wolfman & Pérez had the best and unsurpassed run on Teen Titans, I think 5YG was the pinnacle of LSH history. Nowadays, I just expect some good read - and Shooter & Manapul are doing it.

It's safe to say she is... her line of clothing and accessories can be found at gas stations here... (yes, I was as surprised as anyone)

Is it fair to knock points off the story for what DC solicited? I mean, nowhere in the actual ACTION story does it proclaim "The original Pre-Crisis LSH is BACK!".

DC likely needs to knock their solicit-hyperbole down a notch.

Well said.

If people actually prioritize hype/advertising over the actual story, that is not the writer's fault - the blame lies with the ad people - and maybe even the consumer.

Kudos to Ricardo, too.

re: Bringing back the 5YL continuity...

Why bother? This excellent tale has been fully told, as far as I am concerned, in LSH # 1-50 (with select moments from the following issues). I just don't see the need to revisit it.

I agree. And I, like Lash, love those issues. I reread them probably every two or three years.

But the tale was told and I don't see the need to revisit it.

Even though I also am a very large fan of 5YL, I also don't think it's necessary to bring it back. it would be just too confusing for everybody (but us ) ...

I am willing to sacrifice 5YL continuity-wise - I can still always reread it, and I probably will do it more than once over the rest of my days - to get back classic Legion Lore. Though Johns first two Legion stories may have been a little bit over the top, I am getting exactly what I want from him: Legion stories based on the legacy of Jim Shooter & Paul Levitz. I don't care if there are minor flaws, it's just "the right read" after Archie and Woodstock Legions for over ten years

By the way: Even though 5YL had lived though some retcons, it still was very strongly based on Legion history, a fact that made it so special - not just a great SciFi story, but a great LEGION SciFi story...

In this case I think it is fair. In an interview, Johns did say something to the effect of this would be the original Legion in the way that the Green Lantern currently being published is the original Green Lantern. Many pre crisis fans were absolutely gleeful when that was said. Some continued to hold that position after the story was published. Others tried to find another word or phrase that fit, such as "classic" or Lardy's gem "approximation". Certainly the story holds more weight than solicitations or advertisements.

However, 5YL critics have traditionally not held back in using quotes from interviews and supposed behind the scenes information to argue the point that Byrne hated the Legion, Calrin had an ax to grind, or that Giffen was out to destroy the Legion.

Many fans have argued that the Legion hasn't been as successful in today's market because numerous reboots have made it difficult to find a core audience, and have split the fans to such a degree that the franchise has been damaged. For these fans, a return to the original represented a hope that that we would all have a team that we could rally around, and that sales could return to pre crisis levels. I never shared that view, but I was inspired by their hope. Those fans, it seems, are the last ones who would ever be satidfied with another reboot. In my opinion, we got another reboot. Perhaps it is a close enough approximation that they will be satisfied by the story. Perhaps it isn't. Perhaps it isn't worth splitting hairs over. But after being on the receiving end of 5YL critics splitting hairs for years, I'm not hesitant to point out some of the current inconsistencies. As Superboy said earlier, "Welcome to my world."

My major point, is that we need clarity. Hopefully 3Worlds will deliver. Given my recent experiences with DC mini series, I have to be a bit skeptical. I really hope that I'm wrong.

Yes 5YL had it's run,and Looking back at that run,I think it makes for a much better Elseworld's Legion continuity.
Because The Original Legion continuity I remember with all it's little quirks,The one that lasted for 30 years,Well they had a member named Kal-El for a long time in their history and 5YL did not.

If 5YG makes for an Elseworld, why couldn't it become a "Tangent" like universe? I mean, if Red Rain is able to be an Universe itself, I think it is only fair that Baxter Levitz/Giffen+TMK's gets their dues. Red Rain sold much less than Magic Wars or TMK.

In the "Shooter off Legion?" thread, Superboy, said:

This is something I've heard in the past, and it puzzled me then and continues to do so...the supposed fact that Supergirl was inducted before Superboy in the Legion's chronology.

IIRC, this is based on a background detail in Superboy's induction, where an unnamed Legionnaire present at his induction is apparently Brainiac 5. Therefore, since Brainy joined with Kara and was present for Superboy's induction, she must have been inducted before Superboy, the logic went. Is this the basis for that "fact"?

If this is the entire basis, isn't it true that in the original Adventure #247, the background character later identified as Brainy was not colored the same way? In fact, that color was changed for later reprints? So this supposedly 'canon' induction order is based on recoloring done for reprints? And Brainiac 5 was obviously created later than Adv. 247, so we know Siegel probably didn't yet have the character in mind, right? I mean, hell, the original Legion story was actually published the year before the one that introduced her!

And really, it just doesn't make any sense that they'd induct her first over Superboy. It's no knock on Kara, but why would they induct her first if Superboy was always said to have been their inspiration? A dry run? Can someone give me a reason that makes sense, maybe something said by Levitz or whomever from DC who backed this up, other than a stupid re-coloring retcon?

Maybe I missed something that explained it in an actual Legion issue or an article or something, but if this is purely from a coloring retcon, even if DC has backed it up somewhere as canon, it just irks the hell outta me!

[Dr. Evil]Throw me a frikkin' bone here![/Dr. Evil]

You're absolutely right, Ricardo. If something as comparatively insignificant as "Red Rain" is the basis of one of the 52 Earths, why the hell can't one of them have 5YL/TMK as its future? It's not that big a stretch at all that one of these Earth's had no Superboy and Valor filling that basic role. That'd be one earth for TMK and one for the reboot Legion, seeing as how they both diverge out of that basic premise.

But, nooooo--let's waste one on "Red Rain" continuity, comprised of a whole three graphic novels worth of story instead!

Red Rain is still better than Tangent though... As much as I love Dan Jurgens as an artist, all his writing (except maybe for Superman, and that's before Death of Superman) sucked. His JLA was below ordinary.
But those in the know should tease Dan DiDio about it. It would be a great 50th year anniversary project.