Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Yeah--wouldn't it be a great one-shot GN or mini-series idea for the anniversary to revisit the 5YL and, I dunno, wrap up some loose ends? Wouldn't it be great if Giffen and the Bierbaums were onboard? (Actually, there would be no point if they weren't!) I'm sure that such a short-term project would sell well enough to at least turn a profit, dammit!

Side note, though--has Johns ever explicitly stated that he wouldn't somehow include some sort of homage or appearance of the 5YL cast in L3W, even though they're not one of the three in the title? Certainly, with the Time Trapper involved, it's not outside the realm of possibility!

I'd still give my left something-or-other for that GN or mini, though!

[WOW! 35 pages and 500th reply for this topic---SWEET ASS SWEET!!! ]

I thought that would happen. At some point two years ago, it was hinted Levitz and Giffen would do a LSH GN, at least.
Johns hasn't hinted at anything, but Pérez has. He has said he wanted to draw all 3 Legions but then added something like: I want to draw EVERY LSH that has ever existed! I am sure he meant Adult Legion (from ADV) but, hey, in spite of DC's decision to kill every character ever developed by Giffen, they may explode TMKs for good now.

I agree.
There is no need to revisit 5YG or LOtR. I like to believe the "soft boot" and the entire reboot belong to a subset of stories involving the Trapper, Glorith, Valor and the Pocket Universe Superboy. It's easily explained as a failed tangential universe spawned by the time manipulators.

It's an interesting physics problem but doesn't have much bearing on either Legion being published currently.

It hasn't?

Name one regular feature Legion story that was retconned out of existence prior to 1986?

There's not one.

The Byrne reboot removed a substantial amount of them from history...that's what broke the Legion.

The 5YG "Fix" that was in fact not a fix but an editorial edict from the Superman team...removed even more stories from continuity.

It made the broken Legion make a bit more sense, it was definitely a better explanation than the PU Superboy story, but it was still broken.

So no...the orirginal Legion was just that. all stories happened, with the characters, and in the context they actually happened...and everything or at the minimum 75% after 1986, was not.

The best example you could come up with as a negative retcon would be an editorial snafu with the Legion of Super-Villians.


You yourself admit to not even really being a fan prior to that 5YG...I was.


And if people didn't attempt to claim it was the original. I wouldn't feel the need to refute it.

I liked the original...it was my favorite book. As it was.

And more importantly...it sold well. It was popular. More popular than any version since, regardless of audience size.


Not the original past...that's not the same Brainiac 5, that's not the same Mon-El.

I am not talking minor details I am talking completely different characters, with completely different pasts.

I don't mean one or two things are different...I mean their entire origins are different.

Saying they are the same is like saying Superman is the same if he was Rocketed from Mars and became Superman after his parents were gunned down in an alley by Joe Chill

Hmmm...looks to me like the Legion as founded by Saturn Girl, LL, and Cosmic Boy...in every incarnation...which is about as much as is similar with the 5YG and the original without massive off page re-writing in your head. Ok well the names are different.


That answer works well for people not familiar with the Legion's history and that didn't love those original stories. Those stories were why I am a Legion fan.

I don't really require that they be in continuity for me ot like that Legion..but if people are saying tehy are in continuity...I am going to challenge them.


Seriously...if someone starts telling you this Action Legion is the 5YG Legion only before the gap and with the semi-Utopian future and Superman retconned back in...are you going to agree with them?

Well see...there you go, the Original Legion was nothing like the X-Men...the X-Men ripped off the Legion back then...not the other way around.

I read the Legion and the X-Men back then. I liked the Legion better. I didn't want the Legion to become the X-Men. When I wanted to read the X-men I read the X-men...


But beyond that...DC didn't really care what I wanted, they wanted new fans..and my opinion is only given weight by the fate of the book since they decided to turn the Legion into the X-Men.

I don't think it's failed to find it's happy audience due to the fact that Adv 369 never happened. I think it's because the concept of the team and the tone and scope not to mention variety of the stories are fundamentally different. As well it has no well known character. I think it's because if people want to read the X-Men, they'll read the X-Men, not the Legion. The book went from being a Richman's Legion to a Poor Man's X-Men..and I feel it's status and popularity in the comic world since then, reflects that fact 100%.

From what I can tell the 5YG is in continuity...as far as the Time Trapper is concerned. He remembers it...it was created because of his manipulations.

It was a result of Superman being removed from the Legion's history. And since that is actually what it was...that works for me 100%.

And those changes were undone, by IC, with the return of the multiverse.

At the same time....it is a different Earth, different, Superman, different Legion, different 5YG...because of the Trapper and the Crisis'.

But basically, as to whether or not it exists..

I mean...if a character remembers it, is it then in continuity? I'd say yes..and the Time Trapper seems to remember every version.

Anyway, Giffen has said don't be suprised if he returns to the book...but I doubt he'll do anything like what we've seen from him before.

Griffen better step off! After what he did to Val and 1/3 of Lu he needs to step OFF!!!

You're right about Brainiac 5. None of those background characters, as originally colored, could be matched to any Legionnaire seen later. The whole "Supergirl first" is a retcon, though I have no idea from when. As far as I can see, it either was to explain that recoloring, or it necessitated that recoloring.

This was an interesting case. A problem with retcons is that you don't get to see the new past events as they happened, as older issues still exist in their older form. This was a rare case of altering an old issue associated with new continuity.

I have no idea why anyone would've wanted this retcon - what exactly would a change in membership order help?

Supergirl was established as joining before Superboy in Adventure Comics #323, August 1964 , because Brainiac 5 was shown at his swearing in ceremony then.

As discussed here .

Which makes sense to me when one is dealing with time travel: Superboy became notable more as SuperMAN than boy and Supergirl died young, so her legend was probably exaggerated.

When did he say that? And I agree with you, Giffen would never do the same thing. In fact, his recent works have been rather mainstream-y to me. Except the marvelous Hero Squared.

As for your idea that 5YL is as much a reboot as ZH LSH... I disagree completely, but I ran out of arguments. Brainiac 5 was the same Brainiac 5, it wasn't a new wiped one with a different personality. But whatever. Your argument is simply one: without Superboy, every LSH story is reboot. Which is fine, but denies the obvious fact that for DC, only at Zero Hour LSH history was wiped out.

Sorry: it seems I double-posted it...

I don't follow your logic, Gary. What does Superboy being better known as an adult have to do with whether he or Supergirl joined first?

As I pointed out in the thread you linked to, I think it makes some sense that Superboy joined first as an honorary member and then later became a full-time member. It would then be the latter flashback that is being referenced in ADV. 323, hence Brainy's presence.

The arguments that I've heard for Supergirl joining first are mainly that her time period was closer to the Legion's than Superboy's and that the Legionnaires, awestruck by the possibility of meeting Superboy, may have felt more comfortable approaching his lesser known cousin first.

The first argument, I think, makes little sense, as we're talking about a mere 15 years difference between Superboy's era and Supergirl's.

The second argument makes more sense, but it suggests that the Legionnaires already knew that Superboy was going to join, since they introduced themselves to Kara as the children of people her cousin already knew!

(Time travel paradoxes: Cure for insomnia or good exercise for keeping the mind alert? You decide!)

If Supergirl were to be destined to die as a young woman and SuperMAN (her contemporary) was better known than SuperBOY, then the Legion would probably visit the later era first to meet both characters in one shot. Perhaps then, they may inadvertently learn that SuperMAN already knows them as SuperBOY and then go and recruit him as his younger self.

Anyway, the argument is rather moot since it's been established that Supergirl joined first in the comics for decades now.

I'm not sure exactly when they made it official but I know for certain by the time the Secrets of the Legion mini came out it was cannon.


A for why they did it, because they could? I don't know but it was a cool time paradox.

I know in the comics one of the reasons stated at one pooint was that they were in awe of Superboy/Man and felt Kara would be eaiser to meet.

I just wanted to let you 5YG Fans know...I'm re-reading it just to make sure I haven't missed anything on assessing it. I read it again about 4 years ago(and actually read the ZH run as well)...

I may have some more comments on it...


But one thing I do remember that bothered me...about the Pocket Universe Legion, the 5YG, and the ZH...and the W&K for that matter...


It was next to impossible for them do any kind of Time Travel after the Crisis..and they didn't have much to do with other dimensions either...

In particular, in the 5YG they seemed like they were doing good to have hot water much less Time Travel.


It makes no sense for the Legion to have a villian named the Time Trapper, with his goals, if they can't travel through time. Because they are no threat to him if they can't Travel through time.


And since they haven't been able to Travel through time easily...they shouldn't have been a threat to him once they no longer could.


He was created to make it more difficult for them to time travel so they couldn't solve everything just by changing the past or witnessing the future...

And in the comics, these guys were freaking masters of time travel, they zipped around in time as easily as we go to the grocery store. The pat initiation test for the Legion used to be to go back in time and psychologically terrorize Superboy...it was nothing for them to do it. I've always felt that's what put them on the Time Trapper's radar, and why they could fight him. They were challenging Time Trapper's dominace of the Time Streamm..


I have to impagine that most Legion fans are fans of time travel..because in a way, that's what they do every time they pick up the book...


Plus, if you like space ships and journeys to other distant planets and solar systems...you are a fan of time travel by default.


Again, that is something the Legion used to be able to do that added quite a bit to the type of stories they could tell, it set them apart from all other Superteams.

It's sci-fi, the Legion used to have quite a bit of it...I miss it, the book feels lesser without it..., and if writers lack the imagination to be writing those stories(as in they don't like to write them), they shouldn't be writing the Legion.


I for one have always felt that the limits on Time Travel were something that was again dictated by DC...not the Legion creators.

Giffen seems exactly like the guy that would enjoy the challenge of writing Time Travel stories...it forces the writer to think in unsual ways.

That Time Travel limit seems to have changed now as well looking at the Booster Gold Title. Hopefully...the Action Legion seems to be able to do it relatively easily(as they always could Pre Crisis)...


Anyway...back to the 5YG.

I think every limit or rule DC tried to impose on the universe after the Crisis was abandoned years ago.

I am very, very sure that during Zeho Hour, one of the most important issues Dan Jurgens wanted to introduce was the DIFFICULTY it would be in time travelling from then on. Time travel was creating too much confusion, according to DC at that time. It was also this policy that kind of kept LSH very isolated in DCU.

Again, I'd have to beg to differ with our Superboy. I am not a fan of time traveling stories per se. In fact, I don't like gratuitous crossovers and time-travel stories in comics usually have this aspect. I also like the idea that LSH lives their own time. I'd rather see them crossing galaxies than time. In fact, if they were so skilled in time travelling, they should go to 2500, 1500 etc.
Booster Gold is using time travelling in a good manner, I guess, because it makes more sense and it is part of the storyline.

By the way, for those who are reading Dreamwar... There is a 5th LSH team there... hahaha

To me, the ADV 323 explanation doesn't really help the case as it was probably a continuity error where the story was written and drawn and the editor didn't catch it. I'll bet (without checking) that the Legion's costumes from ADV 247 weren't featured in that issue either, right?

Certainly, the concept of tighter continuity in comics universes was starting to hatch at that point in the Silver Age, but it was still in its infancy. Yes, prior stories were being referenced more and more, but it really only began to evolve with the advent of the Marvel Universe. In any case I seriously doubt the scene from 323 was meant to place Kara joining before Kal. It was just an error!

So I guess this order was acknowledged in Secrets of the Legion and elsewhere as canon based on these posts. No disputing that, but I would've preferred someone wrote a feature or backup or something that explained exactly why she was inducted first! It actually probably would've been a pretty neat story! But nooooo...let's take what was an obvious error in a flashback in ADV 323 and make it canon without putting any real effort into explaining it, instead of just overlooking it for the error it was! Sounds more like Marvel's old annoying No-Prize contests than an exercise in real storytelling!

I'd say Kara's induction story is/was more a WTF moment than that silly flashback ever was or could be! I mean, Kara was supposed to have joined a next-gen LSH in that issue--it was stated explicitly! All the Comic Book Guy-type fans seemed more willing to overlook that but couldn't let Brainy's presence in a stupid flashback go? Well, I say to whomever decided to make Kara's prior induction canon based on that 'evidence':

Interesting theory, Gary.

You're right that the argument is moot, though I feel a fanboy need to quibble over it, particularly since SECRETS OF THE LEGION has been used to establish the "canon" of Supergirl joining first.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, SECRETS gets at least one thing wrong by contradicting ACTION COMICS # 267. The earlier story shows Cham, Colossal Boy, and Invisible Kid as Legionnaires before Supergirl's unsuccessful bid for membership. SECRETS says they were applicants and that Cham joined in Supergirl's place.

So, there's canon and then there's canon.

But, to tie this issue into the present, it shows how writers have always reinterpreted past stories to suit their present needs.

I don't know if this makes Geoff Johns' reinterpretation of the "original Legion" more palatable or not, but it does show that what he's done isn't unprecedented.

That's simply not true...it wasn't the same Brainiac 5.

The Pre Crisis Brainiac 5 was a genius who was descended from the Coluan child protege of the Android Superman Villian Brainiac. He invented a working time machine that enabled him to meet Superboy, Superman, Supergirl.... He was in love with Supergirl, Supergirl as in Superman's cousin, as in Superman who had an arch villain named Brainiac.

It's like Romeo and Juliette...with Time Travel.


The Post Crisis Brainiac 5, like the 5YG Brainiac 5, and like the ZH Brainiac 5, was descended from the CLONE son of the Coluan Superman Villain Brainiac. The Post Crisis Brainiac 5 is an idiot who never invented a working time machine, or at least not until he had made fools of everyone of his teamates and played a leading role in destroying his entire time continuum...

How do we know his didn't work? If it had, he'd have figured out he was the Time Trapper's fool.

If it had...he'd have figured it out when he met the Justice League and the JSA(and Superman), like the Pre Crisis Brainy did...because you know...all the stories, they happened.


He invented a machine that made the Legion think they were going back in time, when really they were going into a Pocket Universe...his time machine didn't let him meet anyone from another time...in fact, he never even invented a working time viewer( or at least not until much later).

He was in love with...no one...yet stupidly built a Robot Replica of her because he missed her so much. Because you know...all the stories, they happened.


Ahh then comes the Mon-El retcon, no more Superboy, in comes Laurel..and all the stories really exist...or do they?

Does the PU Superboy story even exist? Not really becuase they couldn't mention Superboy. Although they did say that he did, in a sourcebook somewhere...

So if the PU Superboy story exists after the Mon-El retcon, but Superboy doesn't...does that mean Mon-El is from the Pocket Universe in the 5YG Legion, like he as in the Post Crisis? Does that mean he was the one killed in that story? Or was it Ultraboy?

You know why they did that note in the source book? Because the M'onel(or is it Valor) retcon did not fix it....they just don't acknowledge that in the comic.


All the stories are in continuity? They all happened? They could not even get the ones from the Post Crisis Continuity to fit...much less the Pre Crisis.


But I digress...


Then he was in love with a strong blond daxamite chick that really doesn't have anything to do with the Superman Villain Brainiac or Superman...although she is distantly related to M'onel...who also really doesn't have anything to do with the Superman Villain Brainiac or Superman, although he did give him his name Valor(or is it M'onel), ...although M'onel(or is it Valor) was once a teamate of the clone who spawned the 5YG Brainiac's 5 entire lineage. But there's really no reason to call him Brainiac anymore, and there's nothing particularly amazing about him being in love with some 30th century daxamite , and any connections you want to draw between her and M'onel(or is it Valor), and Vril Dox II...are hokier than anything you'd find in the Silver Age Legion.


But I digress...can you say, Romeo and Romeo's great great great granddad's work buddie's 435th cousin?

Let's just call it Pebbles and Bambam, in the 30th century. Or something like that.


And to make things even worse for the 5YG Brainiac 5...the ZH Brainiac 5 did eventually invent a working time machine, and the W&K Brainiac 5 has at least invented a time viewer....before they got played for fools and wrecked their entire time continuum.


Ricardo my friend...if you can reconcile that in a way that makes sense...then all I have to say is I wish you had been writing the Legion in 1986...and you should change your name to Brainiac 6.

Sorry, Superboy, but you are nitpicking.
5YL doesn't deny the Time Travel Machine. In fact, Computo is a big part of the whole Domination/Earthwar. If Computo was still a Brainy creation, so his past was still there. Retconned? Sure. Wiped from scratch? Not really.
ZH LSH simply decided to retell the story. Does it mean they shared history? No, of course not. More homage than re-telling, in my opinion, since there was no compromise to the past. And that's not what 5YL was about, huh? In fact, one can ponder if they didn't get TOO tied up in that messy chronology.
So, as you see, different premises. 5YL had problems because it had to try to stick as much as possible to a past/chronology they couldn't control. ZH LSH and W&K had problems because they had NOTHING to hold to.

:lol am I nitpicking? It's only when I try to reconcile the 2 continuities.

Well just so you know...I'm not attacking the 5YG Legion, I'm not attacking TMK...it may seem like that but really I'm attacking the editorial policy that broke the book. I mean don't get me wrong...the way it turned out I didn't like hte stories either, mainly because my favorite characters were getting whacked or written out of the book....

Forgetting about all that stuff for a second, the way it turned out...and looking at what Giffen actually wanted to do...


I actually think it would have turned out well, if Giffen hadn't been interferred with and he'd have gotten to finish the job. I like his full plan. I like the Omega Men idea...and he wanted to bring Superman back...because he knew that continuity was broken beyond repair.

He'd have left the 30the century stronger for it. They'd have had 2 books, the Omega Men and the Legion fully launched in the 30th century. The Old Fans could have read both, no longer pissed...and Omega Men would have appealed to the older audience and the SW6 batch would have gone for the younger audience..


I think his full idea was pretty brilliant(including realizing he had to bring Supes back)...he just didn't get to execute it.

I am so not defending 5YL. All my considerations include the dreadful LOTR and everything up to the reboot.

My point is: history, as much as it was changed, retconned, twisted etc... was still there. There was not a blank sheet. And you know that.

Dan Jurgens - and most probably Mark Waid -, who were the "Geoff Johns" of that period, gave LSH a blank sheet with ZH. The idea was to make LSH as big as the X-Men (I remember an interview at that time saying it in those words). They said that they wanted to RETELL some stories, but they wouldn't follow it. This was impossible for 5YL - the maximum they could do was to change some of the characters in a certain story. But never "wipe it out".

That's what I am talking about. It's not a defense of TMK or McCraw. It's a "defense" of what is a reboot and what is a retcon.

A little while ago, I realized this.
It seems (was it earlier on this very thread that it was pointed out?) that most 5YL fans consider it a retcon, and most of its detractors consider it a reboot. So a "retcon" argument can (I won't say should) be taken as a defense of 5YL.