Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine Jerry Falwell passes away

It isn't meant as an argument, just a statement of personal belief. I never said that people shouldn't speak ill of the man. If you read the rest of my post, you will see I had a lot of negative things to say about him. I would never advocate keeping quiet about Hitler's atrocities. We must remember and learn from the past. However, I beleive we can respectfully state the truth and remain civil in our conversations most of the time.

My personal philosophy is one that involves striving for an evasive concept of "human dignity". We treat people well for various reasons. Our motivations can be broken down into three concepts:

1) Honor - Treating someone well because of their position. Examples: Honoring your elders, standing when a judge enters the court, singing "Hail to the Chief" for the President.

2)Respect - Treating someone well because of their behavior. Examples: Giving medals for service, employee of the month awards, buying a gift for someone because you appreciate something they did for you.

3) Human Dignity - Treating someone well simply because they are human. Examples: Feeding the poor, treating a customer well regardless of the amount of money he or she spends, making sure that prisoners have minimal health care.

The concept can be taken a step further to include the belief that a higher level of human dignity can be attained by treating someone well even if they treat you badly. In business, this concept can be applied to customer service to train employees not to lose their temper or respond in kind when a customer is getting angry or belittling them.

As far as fundamentalists go, I think Fred Phelps and his cronies provide one of the ultimate examples of a lack of human dignity when they protest at the funerals of people who died of AIDS related illnesses or fallen soldiers. I choose not to respond in kind by celebrating the death of Jerry Falwell. That doesn't mean I wouln't love to chuck a water balloon at Mr. Phelps. I do think it would be hypocritical of me to say to the fundamentalists, "Hey, you guys need to show some basic respect and human dignity at a funeral", but then turn around and celebrate the death of an opponent in the cultural wars.

Again, this is a personal philosophy I strive to achieve. I'm not arguing that it is easy, that it is for everyone, or that I always succeed.

I know that Jerry Falwell can evoke strong feelings. Rather than letting things get so hot flaming starts, I have requested that the moderators close this thread.

what happened to free speech?
no ones fighting, or at least in my opinion, everyone has their opinion and they are entitiled to it.

Quislet, I would like to see the thread remain open. The thoughts and opinions people are expressing here are very real and need a place to be expressed. I can't think of a better or safer place to work through this than here with fellow Legion Worlders.

Well, I have made a request of the moderators. The request comes from me as the original poster of the thread, not as a moderator myself. If the moderators in charge of this forum (and the founders) feel that the thread should remain open or closed, it is their decision.

If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all, huh?

"..."

I have nothing to say about Jerry Falwell.

About out poster Jerry, I would like to say that I admire his posts here.

(moderator hat on)

Hi, folks.

After further review, we've opted (and by "we" that includes the OP) to keep this thread open.

It's the kind of topic that can attract strong opinions, and that's cool. Strong opinions are good.

Disagreements can be good too. Having one's ideas challenged can lead to a better exchange of ideas.

What isn't good is when the expression of that disagreement goes overboard and becomes an attack on the poster instead of a critique of the ideas or opinions expressed. We don't need that here. I haven't seen it come to that yet in this thread and I trust you guys enough to believe that it won't happen.

Just in case anyone hasn't read the posting rules, I offer them here

So, have at it. But be cool to each other. OK? OK.

(moderator hat off)

I agree. LegionWorld Jerry rules!!! and I'm going to use his treatise on the concept of dignity in my everyday life and interactions with others.

What OM said...

That said I will add that he damaged this country in ways that are still not totally understood by working so hard to erode the seperation of church and state through his work with the "Moral Majority."

Here's hoping he's in a place where he can finally get the real true Word.

Who?

Damaged the country?

Naw, not buying it. No more than Jesse or Al or any number of others. Stated his convictions publicly, hid nothing. Much better than little secret societies/Wall St. heh.

Dialogue.

Brings progress, I believe, generally for the good.

Sensitive to this board so....

Homosexuals used to be demonized by the practicing churches almost exclusively, both as humans and in practice. People afraid to speak out against their denominations until dialogue brought out those that sided, the "loud" were not necessarily representative of scripture.

A religion cannot deny its scriptural base, but a church can fight to keep it from being twisted by hate.

God and his mysterious ways.

some believe they speak for God.

"Naw, not buying it. No more than Jesse or Al or any number of others. Stated his convictions publicly, hid nothing. Much better than little secret societies/Wall St. heh.
"

It depends on how you feel, I guess, about the rise of the politically motivated religous right, in which Falwell was a major factor. Though, on the other hand, if the rest of us voted, the religous right wouldn't get their way. Heck, they often don't get their way anyway. If they're the only ones who want to vote, we deserve the country we get.

This is what I'm saying too. It hidden agenda's to be feared.

At least in my church, a conservative, non-denominational church with five services averaging over a thousand per...I would say Falwell "raised" issued into the public forefront of church service. We recently had a three issue series on sexuality (imagine that 10 years ago). During lecture on homosexuality the question was asked, "how many know someone that is homosexual?" Nearly the entire congregration raised their hand. That also wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. Maybe still wouldn't many places, but progress is slow.

BB has a valid point in that it is usually better to get agendas out in the open.

I do realize that some evangelical/fundementalist Christians hold/held Falwell in high regard (for reasons that escape me), but I would hope people saintifying him recall (1) he was a staunch segregationist, (2) he was a staunch supporter of apartheid in South Africa, (3) he and Pat Robertson were openly gloating on 9/11, thinking they were finally getting ther apocalyspe and blaming gays for the attack, and (4) he actively worked to replace American democracy with his vision of theocracy.

On the whole, hving observed several different boards, I must add that Falwell "opponents" have been far more respectful during his time of passing than Falwell himself was of others on 9/11 or at other times (as evidenced by Reboot).

Peace.

I actually think I agree with BB pretty strongly.

Falwell's beliefs may have been pretty despicable, but, like it or not, he did give voice to opinions that were held by a significant number of people in this country. And, at least from what I've read about him the past few days, there's actually a surprisingly lack of hypocrisy in his career, when compared to other religious leaders who've been involved in politics, or most other political figures generally. Ironically, I think the case can be made that by giving voice to anti-gay sentiment, for example, he may very well have advanced the cause of gay rights, by making the issues something that people on both sides talk about rather than sweeping under the rug.

So, to be fair, while he's hardly someone I'd consider a heroic figure, I think there are far more dangerous or "evil" political forces within this country. And, unfortunately, that includes the current and previous Presidential administrations and most of the people running for that office at the moment.

The way I see it, he's done far more damage than good. As one of the architects of a fundamentalist movement which has little if any, regard for the separation of church and state, he's actually helped to create an environment which fosters those dangerous and evil forces EDE mentions.

For me, this negates any perceived "good" he's done by galvanizing the movements and groups he opposed. He was, in fact, aiming to eradicate them. Or at the very least bend them to his will. So his opponents were responding to a threat. Their survival was at stake. Though their actions may be lauded, it doesn't make sense to me to give any praise, however mild, to the one doing the threatening. My thoughts.