Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Giffen is way overrated,the only thing he had going for him was his art and he let that go with LSH#306,He has never done anything on his own that lasts.
He's like the Grim Reaper of Comic Book Creator's,In more ways than one.

I have a lot of respect for Keith Giffen and his early work was one of my influences, but...

Actually, I heard of a different, preumably earlier, and infinitely worse plan. Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen. Starring Jack Larson and a Superman composited from photo-doubles and stock footage.
I know - I got tired of Lex too.

For most comic runs the majority don't like (Legion 5YL, for example), there will still be a number of fans of that run not afraid to admit it. And no, I'm not a 5YL fan; that's not my point. My point is, I'm more a fan of Post-Crisis Superman than Pre-Crisis Superman, and at least online, that seems to be far more of a minority taste than 5YL Legion is.

(activates force-field belt and hopes he didn't say the worst possible thing to Legion fans)

Just like Frank Miller and Grant Morrison, isn't it? I see, this must be why most of the writers that came after him on both JL and LSh are measured AGAINST his work. Or Lobo, or Ambush Bug...
In fact, I think some artists should be Grim Reapers. Otherwise, their legacy could always be topped. I mean, I don't think I want to see a Neil Gaiman-less Sandman or a Moore-less Watchmen. Or a 5YG Giffen-less.

Giffen, like many creators, has had some highs and lows. I'd have to say he's had many more highs, personally. As I've said before, he's one of the most under-rated creators in comics. And right now, he's one of the frontrunners in the "favorite Legion artist" poll Mllash is running. So a lot of people like him here.

But I'm not a fan of his vendetta against Karate Kid at all. I remember reading some interviews with Chris Claremont about his early days writing the new X-Men. Of all those characters he inherited, he really didn't connect to Wolverine; in fact he hated him and wanted to kill him off. But instead, he focused on developing Wolverine into as good a character as he could and eventually made him into one of Marvel's flagship properties.

Giffen should have done that with Val instead of killing him. A creator of his capabilities could have done a lot with the character. Guess he just didn't see it that way or wasn't up to the challenge...

That does sound pretty awful...the Superboy show I am talking about was a different show and not a direct continuation of the Adv of Supes but they did give it serious consideration. I think they even filmed a pilot of it.

No one can change what they like...

Like Superboy says, everyone likes what they like, and that doesn't mean they're wrong.

Funny you should mention post-Crisis Superman because John Byrne was the first artist's name I ever learned as a comics fan because his was the first style that really caught my eye. Before him, I never paid attention to any creator's name; I just either liked the comic I read or didn't.

My superhero fanhood started primarily with DC until I drifted over to Marvel, captivated by Stern's Spidey, Claremont's X-Men and Byrne's Alpha Flight and FF. And Byrn emerged as my first superstar who I'd follow from project to project.

And so I followed him back to my childhood fave Superman back to DC and really got into it, knowing that it was a reboot of sorts throwing out Superboy, Krypto, mult-colored Kryptonite and even the Fortress of Solitude at first. It appealed to me because I was in on the ground floor, and being a teenager at the time, I appreciated how those 'childish' elements had been discarded. In fact I stuck around after Byrne left and followed all the Super titles into the early 2000s.

I think I actually started to drift away when it was apparent that most of Byrne's elements were themselves being discarded. It wasn't a reboot exactly, but I began to wonder what the point of Byrne's revamp was in the first place if they were basically bringing the Silver Age elements back but somehow still in the same continuity. One of those "softboots" we were talking about a few pages ago, I guess.

So where do I stand on pre-Crisis vs. post-Crisis Superman, now? Well, I guess I like both. But if they're going to make modern Superman more and more like the pre-Crisis version, shouldn't DC just bring back the old continuity and dump the new since this is graft makes him more of a pale imitation? I don't know...it's frustrating!

But I understand how you feel, Trips. I've never morphed into a Byrne-hater, though he's not my favorite any more. And most people online seem to absolutely hate him, particularly here on Legion World, so I don't stick my neck out there often. People blame him for what happened to the Legion, but ultimately, there could have always been a veto from the higher-ups. And I've read interviews where Byrne said he did try to fix things as best as possible with the Pocket Universe patch. I'm pretty sure it was the decision of DC's execs to actually kill Superboy in the storyline, not Byrne's. And the patch certainly would have preserved the Legion's hitory (if not their connection with Superman) at least if DC didn't demand things be arbitrarily taken further with his total removal...and then even further with the reboot..and on and on.....

You do have a point here, but I think it must be looked at in the larger context. In the '70s and '80s, virtually no comics starring a female super-hero were successful. Ms. Marvel, The Cat, The Dazzler . . . I can't think of any others off-hand. Only Wonder Woman survived, and Glen Cadigan gave a compelling reason a few pages ago why DC continued to publish her book at a loss.

Again, I think it was because comics were perceived as entertainment for adolescent males, and few adolescent males at the time would be caught dead buying a girl's comic book.

So, if starring in a successful comic book is a criteria for being a major character, we're left with the notion that *none* of the female characters at the time were major. I don't think that's what you mean.

(Also, to expand this further: Green Lantern, Aquaman, Hawkman, and the Atom all lost their titles for a time in the '70s, the latter two permanently--yet no one would argue that they did not remain major characters.)

Supergirl, I argue, was a major DC character at the time; along with Wonder Woman and Batgirl, she was well known outside of comics and, along with those two, was turned into an action figure in the mid '70s. This honor was *not* accorded to Green Lantern, Hawkman, or the Atom (though it was accorded to Aquaman). Even the Flash didn't get his own action figure, despite remaining continuously published during that period.

My reason for arguing this point, by the way, has nothing to do with whether I or anyone else is a fan of a particular character. It has to do with the perception of some fans (I know you're not alone in this) being distorted, I think, by the Supergirl's death, which suggests that DC threw away a useless character. One must bear in mind, however, that the Flash was killed off in the very next issue of CRISIS and that his death, along with Supergirl's, got a lot of media attention at the time precisely because they were major characters. After all, killing off a major character is a good way to get publicity (see: Superman).

This is the first I've heard of the connection between the White Triangle and Carlin.

Veddy Interestink!

HWW brings up another good point about female characters and their problems holding down a series. Even now, it's a problem. There are some females holding down monthlies right now. But even Catwoman is up for cancellation this summer after having two series, both nearing 100 issues before ending.

They're hot now, but who knows how long She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel will last.

Spider-girl may be the most successful heroine going right now, having been the only one I know other than Wonder Woman to reach 100 issues in one series. Of course, her series was relaunched after 100, and her cancellation ballet has been well documented over the years.

Birds of Prey has been very successful, but is a female team book, as opposed to a solo series.

So how popular and successful was Supergirl in her time? One thing that makes me wonder if she was really so major was her lack of involvement in any team book of note. She would have been a natural as a founding Titan for instance, though her power might've conflicted with Donna's somewhat and may have generally overshadowed the others. I also don't think she was featured much in the big teamup books, DC Comics Presents or Brave & the Bold. I suppose she would've been too redundant in the JLA since Supes always seemed to be a member thru Crisis.

It seems she was almost exclusively a 'Superman Family' character (and for that matter, how long was she Superman's 'secret weapon'?). In a way it seems like she had that in common with Batgirl who also never seemed important to the DCU at large, just to her 'Batman Family', beloved as Barbara always seemed in the role. Barbara honestly seems a lot more important since she became paralyzed, and that really doesn't seem like a stretch at all.

Can anyone cite some instances where Kara seemed important to the pre-Crisis DCU at large, aside from her roles in the Superman Family, the LSH and Crisis?

Well, as with Superboy's use of the terms "major character" and "memorable," it depends on what you mean by "important."

There were very few story lines that affected DC's entire universe in those days, so it's difficult to gauge Kara's role in the overall DCU. You raise a good point that she was not a member of other teams beside the Legion, and there were good reasons for this. JLA, which had a much smaller lineup than the Legion, refused to admit characters with duplicate powers for a long time. (This is why it took so long for Hawkwoman to join.) The Titans were always a team with "smaller" super-powers. Supergirl would have far outclassed everyone else, including Wonder Girl. Because Kara didn't "mix well" with other DCU staples, it's therefore easy to conclude that she was not significant apart from the Superman Family.

But, even if she wasn't, so what? I maintain that the gauge of her popularity was not her relative usage within the DCU, but how well known she was outside of comics. The fact that she was turned into 1) an action figure and 2) a movie* several years apart attests to her enduring popularity, I think. (Compare, for example, Spiderwoman, who, like Kara, is a female version of an extremely popular male character, yet who is largely unknown outside of comics.)


*The fact that the movie stunk is probably a better indication of why it failed than Kara's lack of popularity as a character.

Kara did have a couple of Brave and Bold appearances with Batman. She had some guest shots in Justice League of America and Super Friends. She had a pretty big role in the Superman/Shazam tabloid. She was great in an Super Team Family appearance with Flash and the Atom. Her only DC Comics Presents stoary was a Crisis tie in. Not a lot, I guess but she always seemed like a pretty major player me.

The current Supergirl's stint in the Legion, like the Kon El Superboy stint at the end of DnAs run, was unfortunate because it failed to capatilize the "Superman" brand because of poor execution. The current Supergirl's introduction to the DC universe in Superman/Batman was very well done. It generated a lot of buzz and excitement. Her first appearance in the Legion did pump sales up quiet a bit. Some of that could have been maintained with just a little clarification of who the character was. Her own title was cluttered for months with confusion about whether her purpose on Earth was to kill Superman or not.
The "you guys are all a dream" storyline went on for well over a year in the Legion. We never know until the end who she really was, or why she was here. She came across as a nut job who the team gladly let become a member and then voted in as leader without ever knowing for sure who she was. To add insult to injury, the answers to these questions dripped out in the Action annual, World War III, and a Countdown tie in in Supergirl's magazine. DC and Waid really couldn't have made her Legion appearances a more frustrating expereince for readers if they had tried.

To me the Kon-El move failed because it seemed to me like the story became about the novelty of Superboy being in the Legion. I don't particularly like it when they take that approach. I like it much better when they're just another kid. I mean yeah there might be some initial awe there from the Legionaires, but after a while the novelty should wear off...that's the way kids tend to be.

I'd say W&K Supergirl had a similar problem as well...


It read like a gimmick...the arcs became about them being in the Legion in a way, instead of them being Legionaires.

Yes, Kone El read like a gimmick in the Legion. The other problem is that he was presented so differently than Johns was presenting him in Teen Titans at the time. It took years for the character to really get centered and find a voice of his own. Johns finally nailed him down, but he wasn't recognizable as presented in Legion. And, like with Supergirl, they didn't really explain his presence or how it fit into continuity with the stories appearing in Teen Titans until the end. How can readers relate to a character and buy into him or her being a part of the team when we can't even figure out who they are.

That's true, you do make a valid point there.

True...another reason Wonder Woman stayed in print is because her rights would revert back to the Moulton estate if she didn't.

But yes...like Levitz said, Wonder Woman is an extremely valuable character and property, she's just not particularly valuable as a solo character in a monthly title....or at least she wasn't prior to the Crisis...I think the Post Crisis WW was a successful character, by any measure.


But I say that there is a clear line there between Supergirl and Wonder Woman...Supergirl did not stay in publication, for licensing purposes or any other. She wasn't in the Justice League, she wasn't in the Teen Titans. DC did nothing to keep her name out there or raise her profile....so even they must not have valued her that much.


I agree there, but at that same time, that doesn't really disprove my point that she wasn't particularly successful.

True, but they were featured in a popular title in the Justice League...and I'd say a large part of their importance was tied up in the fact that they were second generation DC characters...Legacy characters, as much because of any Silver Age success they had had.


I would not call the Siver Age Atom a successful character at all....he's stayed around totally because of his status as a legacy name.


I'll concede you make a valid point about her being known outside of the comics world...that is a good point and I'd agree with it. I don't really think she's a good parallel to WW though, because Wonder Woman did stay in print due to her merchandising value(and the agreement with the Moulton/Martson estate) while Supergirl did not. Nor was Supergirl placed in high profile books on a monthly basis as WW was in the Justice League, and nor did she have the benefit of being a true legacy character.

And I'd say that even in the event you are right, and she was important prior to her death in COIE, IMO, her status in the DC Uni still went much much higher after her death, regardless of what it had been previously. I think she attained A-list status in death...I don't believe she had it prior to her death.

I agree...and you bring up a reason why I think Johns is going to be successful in returning home with Superboy so to speak. Look at what he's done with the Kingdom Come Superman in JSA, he's completley integrated that character into the team...without it seeming like a gimmick. And it is a total gimmick BTW.


Johns is really good at integrating characters..and I also think that if anyone can pull off an integration of the ZH and W&K Legionaires into the Action Legion...it'll be Johns. I've heard some say that if they were the characters surving in an alternate time line, it'd make them crazy...but Johns has 3 characters from alternate Earths in the JSA, KC Superman, Power Girl, and Starman...and it works. Plus...we've had to adjust to alternate realities as readers...why can't these heroes who routinely fight battles at the dawn and end of existence? I think Johns can do something similar with some of the alternate reality Legionaires that he's done with some of the alternate reality guys in the JSA should he attempt it.

The irony is that Shooter is now helping the Legion find its voice, and what has been presented of the Legion so far by Johns, for me, rings hollow. Characters that were solicited as the "original" Legion had no similarty to what I consider the original. Perhaps it can repaired. We'll see.

I'm in the process, as we speak, of reading the "Superman and the Legion of Super Heroes" arc for the first time (having recently finally acquired it thru mail order), and I'd have to disagree with you, Jerry. Halfway through, this feels absolutely like the the Legion I grew up with! So I'll have to agree to disagree with you.

Man! It feels so damn good to read a story featuring Wildfire, Dawnstar, Polar Boy, Colossal Boy, Shadow Lass and the rest for the first time in AGES! They're a little older and a little more rough around the edges than the last time I saw them--but dammit, they're THE LEGION!!! I don't think I realized exactly how much I missed them until here and now when I'm finally reading a new story featuring them in well over a decade!

Geoff Johns is the GREATEST!!!

(I hope you'll all forgive this unabashed enthusiasm out of nowhere--okay, back to the next chapter! )

I'm glad you are enjoying the Action story, Lard Lad. It does have some merit. I typically enjoy Johns as a writer. Franks is, at times, a great artisit. I didn't like the new costumes, for the most part, and the eyes thing got out of hand.

I have no problem with the concept of putting a Legion, or even, this Legion, into the current version of Superman's mythos.

I do have a problem with the lack of definition of some of the basic story elements. This version is sometimes called the pre-crisis Legion. They have never defined a breaking off point. Johns has mentioned the end of the Baxter series or around the time Superboy was removed from the Legion's history. Well, which was it? Was the break off point Crisis on Infinite Earths, the pocket universe, or the end of Magic Wars? It makes a difference, and I would like to know. I would like to know what the people putting the book out think, not just what fans speculate. I want to know why Karate Kid was alive again before he died. I want to know who Una really was. Perhaps the three worlds min will clarfify some of this. We'll see.

A few pages back on this thread, I asked if people considered the pre crisis Superman to be the same as the post crisis version. Most people said that he is a different version. So, the plan to making the Legion successful again is to match the pre crisis Legion to the post crisis Superman? I'm not so sure I follow that.

The framing sequences tell a different story than the one that I have come to know about how Clark Kent first met Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, and Saturn Girl. The final issue seems to suggest that he wore the Superboy costume in his adventures in the 31st Century. Again, I have no problem with that. It does appear to me that it is a different Legion, however, and not the original. If we accept that this is the original we have to throw out some of the stories that occurred as presented the first time around. See the previous Supergirl converstation. Any trips to Smallville that involved working with an out in the open Superboy, the Super Pets, the Luthor storeis, etc.

I have no problem accepting any of these changes. I do have a problem with the those who insist that retcons and shifts in reality the first time around were so destructive that they destroyed the "orignal "original Legion, and couldn't accept the 5YL as the real team, and now gladly embrace this new version of the Legion as original, conveniently ignoring their own arguments of the past couple decades. (Wow, major run on sentence.)

I have no problem with a bisexual Dawnstar or Wildfire in a Red Tornado body. I have a feeling that neither of those Lightning Saga bits will ever be picked up on again. I have a major problem with Yera and Vi being on the same team. In the orginal Legion this would never have happened. Vi was way too angry. The original Vi would not have allowed it. That's too big a change in character for me to swallow. I have a problem with the way Garth was portrayed in the follow up issue - a practical joker who taught the young Clark to loosen up. Well, I don't really have a problem with that. It's kind of a fun concept. I have a problem with calling it a return to the original, when that isn't the relationship that Clark and Garth had in the Adventure run.

I'm a true blue 5YL fan. I have no problem with those stories being moved aside for the concept to continue. I am a bit insulted by the joy that some seem to take in the process. I'm disheartened that the quality of what is replacing them seems be inferior.

The timing is all suspect. Bringing Shooter back but not giving him center stage. Heavily promotiing a competing version of the team, while he is working so hard. I don't know the story behind all this. On the surface, it all appears odd and disrespectful. Maybe, I'm wrong. Maybe three worlds will reveal a genius of a plan that hits the right notes. I'm open to seeing what happens.

Bottom line: I'm totally okay with another reboot of the Legion. I'm totally okay with Johns writing this new version of the Legion. I'm not okay with it being called the return of the original Legion. From what we've seen so far, It simply isn't.

In my enthusiasm last night, Jerry, I probably misportrayed what I was feeling. Yes, they're not exactly the Original Legion, to be sure. But those characters certainly had that feel to them at least. I mean, it's been sooo long since I've read a story with Wildfire, Dawnstar, Blok, Polar Boy and Jacques in it and together! It was just a lot of fun for me.

I haven't read the "Lightning Saga", yet (waiting to get a missing issue of the latest JSA series to read it all together). But I have read a lot of the criticisms and questions about the Legion's portrayal there. It seems obvious that what we have in this Legion is an approximation of the pre-Crisis (or pre-Pocket Universe or whatever) Legion. More particularly, from the Action arc, it seems they are older than they were at that time. They all seem about Superman's age, though the dialogue would suggest at times that the LS didn't happen so long ago for them. So conceivably the Action arc may take place a couple years or so after whatever point in Levitz's run the LS was supposed to coincide with. Certainly, the situation on future Earth as portrayed in Action must've taken some time to develop. So in the Action arc particularly, it seems we're somewhere beyond the Levitz era and in new territory contradicting the 5YL timeline, kind of an alternate future for the same characters.

I'm a 5YL fan, too, as you may recall. So I take no joy exactly in it being moved aside. But it is simply nice to see something approximating the Legion that existed for over three decades. I don't think there's any way to bring it back exactly at a certain point, exactly picking up certain plotlines, after all this time, so an approximation is probably the best we could hope for. And it's nice to see a talented writer like Johns at the reins.

And the timing is suspect--it's one of the main things we've been talking about here for several pages. My hope is for two Legion books. Hopefully, both will survive longterm but probably not. We'll see, I guess.

I'll be anxious to read your thoughts on Lightning Saga when you read it. The Cockrum designed costumes added even more to that feeling of seeing old favorites. The use of Dawnstar was one of the highlights for me, as well. She is much to good a character not be used, and it is a shame that it took so many years for her to make a comeback. But then there was the disappointment of not seeing statues of Chemical King and Tyroc in Superman's fortress along with everyone else.

An approximation of the pre crisis Legion is as good and realistic a description as I've heard or can think of myself. As is fitting for the tone of this conversation, so far, it is also very diplomatic. Perhaps it would be easier to accept that if the fans who didn't like the post Morduverse Legion, had called it an approximation of what came before rather than a destruction.

Nothing? Not even turning her into an action figure and a film?

Well, I guess our difference of opinion boils down to different criteria for what success means to a comic book character.

Your criteria seems two-fold: A character has to star in his or her own comic book title for a number of years, and/or they have to be a part of an established team, such as the JLA, in order to receive exposure.

My criteria is how well known they were outside of the comics universe in which they appeared. (Let's face it: the DCU and MU are fairly insular hobbies; what is "important" in them remains largely unknown to the general population.)

(By the way, I consider the Silver Age Atom to be a successful character for the same reason: He was featured in a cartoon series (the Superman/Aquaman Hour, I believe), and so was exposed to a lot of viewers who might never have read his book or been aware of his "legacy" status--a distinction that would only matter to DC fans.)

In a way, this argument proves my point: Supergirl was well-known outside the comics industry *in spite of* not staying in print in her own title during those years.

I'm not sure why this matters in terms of her popularity or any other character's popularity. Characters sooner or later must stand or fall on their own merits, not because they carry on another character's legacy.

You've been gracious in conceding points to me, so I'll concede this one to you. Death is certainly a career move, both in real life as well as in fiction. (John Lennon had his biggest hit, "(Just Like) Starting Over" in the weeks after his death.)

Here, I agree with you. I've always seen mass audience recognition as paramount. This does have interesting consequences. More people are familiar with supporting and recurring characters from A-list titles than with the main characters of B-list titles.

Even in the Silver Age, as a recent thread showed, the top-selling titles still didn't reach a large segment of the population.
The Atom was on TV in the 60s?

Obviously, Jerry, that period is among the most polarizing among Legion fandom, and probably the most polarizing. It's kinda funny that it could be more polarizing than either reboot considering 5YL at least attempted to preserve as much of what went before under the circumstances.

But even moreso than the retcons, it was the overall darker, more extreme change of direction that caused the polarizing. The retcons were out of the creators' hands, but the direction was all their doing.

I'll say it again: I loved me some 5YL up until things started to unravel with Legion on the Run. I believe it respected what went before as much as possible while pushing the storytelling in a daring new direction.

One thing about this thread, Jerry, is that when we discuss 5YL here, it is the most civil discussion on the subject I've ever seen, even with the polarization among the responders views of it still being present. So it would seem to indicate some respect forming among our fandom over the issue as time goes on. I know the discussions have been really, really heated in the past, with both sides speaking very harshly to the other and at times getting too personal with the comments. I think that is what you're speaking of, Jerry.

(BTW, we haven't heard from anti-5YL poster Abin Quank since he recently purchased all the 5YL issues with intent to read them all. Wonder how it's going/went?)

The big difference with this "approximation", Jerry, is that it comes about a decade and a half after the era it tries to emulate whereas 5YL came right on the heels of one of the most successful periods in Legion history and was perceived by its detractors as tearing apart everything that made that era so successful. Time, it seems, is the big difference here.

But I do feel the pain of those who loved 5YL and feel it deserves to be revisited as much as the Levitz era.

I guess one problem with your "well-known" argument is that she was well-known among the general public for having an absolute flop of a movie and for the publicity surrounding her death in Crisis shortly thereafter. Those are two pretty ignominious reasons to be well-known for!

Now, though, I doubt many people in this murky general public we refer to actually remember either of those things. If she's known at all at this point, it's either for her appearances in the Superman animated series and in the Smallville series. In the latter, I think she's only referred to as "Supergirl" in promotional materials since Clark still isn't Superman in that show, and it would be quite an upstage if she got the superhero name before him.

In any case modern parallels are beside the point since we're talking about her popularity at, or just before, the time of her death. Superboy has a point in that she had not and has yet to grow out from beneath Superman's shadow. I feel comfortable saying that Barbara Gordon has definitely grown out of Batman's, though not as Batgirl admittedly.

Batgirl at least appeared on the popular (but campy) '60s Adam West TV series. Did Supergirl ever appear in any of Superman's anis prior to the '90s version? Did she ever show up on Super Friends, arguably the biggest, most successful television outlet for DC characters even to this date? I don't remember any appearances. Did she?

I'm actually really surprised to learn she had an action figure! What line was it in? Mego? If so, that's pretty impressive! Any links or images?

In any case I think the 'public recognition' thing may not apply to Supergirl as much as other examples for the reasons I've cited. In her case it really should be all about her importance to comics fans and publishing before her death. And by that measurement, I'd definitely have to rate her a 'B' character.

That said, I'd still like to see her featured and acknowledged, along with young Kal, in any future de-boot Legion comic. She was certainly underused, but when she was, it was often something special!