Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Actually, I don't want either of you to think I was running you out. I've actually enjoyed the debate. But it does seem to be going in circles a little, especially as others putting their two cents in has decreased. One thing I tried to do with that post was push things into a new direction, not necessarily end the debate.

What I see are two guys who show a great love of the Legion and are passionate about what they think it will take to "save" the Legion. What I pointed out in the last post is, in a way, there probably is no perfect answer. If we find a way to increase the sales, there are still going to be many, many fans who are going to be disappointed in it, dissatisfied and some who will outright hate it.

I love the Legion and, like Superboy, would probably continue to buy whatever version DC puts out. Like him, I'd probably also prefer to see two books, with Shooter continuing to write the version he's doing. But the signs suggest otherwise.

I think whatever DC does, it would do my heart good if they'd at least throw out all the constant rebooting, retconning and all around effing with the Legion they've done since Superboy was first retconned out. If I could read a version and know it's gonna be the same version five, ten, whatever years from now, I'd be satisfied...even if it doesn't top all other Legion stories ever written.

I thank both of you for your insights and points of view into what is going to be another era of uncertainty for the Legion.

LoL well I was enjoying arguing about it with Ricardo...they should start a sub forum for he and I to argue in


I agree, no more reboots...I'm completely sick of them. And they also need to stop teasing of returns to the original and then not delivering...it's just salt in the wounds and keeps Legion fandom from moving on.

Scott, Gary--you guys listening? I'd read it!

Maybe we should borrow the Scarlet Witch from Marvel? Instead of "No more mutants"---"<span style="font-size: 25px;">NO MORE @#$%^& REBOOTS!!!!!</span>"

As far as I know, the bump was more related to stores ordering extra imagining there would be an instant draw rather than sales. So we don't know... I think L3W might draw people to the book right now. And, as far as I know, sales have not dropped after Shooter, rather have stagnated.

Very much agreed. I liked most of what Valiant put out, even PUNX , one of the greatest Giffen works (probably the closest to a mix of LSH and Heckler that could be developed).
I don't even think he would get LSH at all. I was just mentioning as an artist who would draw people in flocks to LSH. And if you think LSH under TMK was not the Legion, Morrison would do it even less about it...

But Matt Fraction would definitely write LSH - except he is a Marvel Exclusive these days. His eulogy of LSH on the Companion is very clear on that.

I agree with Superboy on this topic 100 percent,and as someone else pointed out the Pocket Universe story was the 1st domino that led to the demise of the original Legion,Once Kal-El was taken away they kept removing more and more until there was nothing left of the original Legion,as for TMK's while it had some good and bad in it,It was still half the Legion it used to be.

The Legion had a certin status in the DCU when it was tied to Kal-El,And after he was gone they became the Red-Headed Stepchild of the DCU.

Here's another point I'd like to make.

The Original Legion that had Kal-El as a Member survived and thrived for thirty years as one of DC's best selling titles even when it had writer's on it that did not care for the character's in the book,and their stories at times were combined with less than stellar art.

While the three Legion's without Kal-El that came after started out with superstar writer's who loved the Legion and great artists ,But those Legion's did not survive let alone thrive and only one was lucky enough to make it ten years.

We all know the Legion will never sell like it did in the Silver or Bronze Age.

But I do believe with it's original history intact with Kal-El it can once again be a top ten book and one of the best selling title's at DC comics if they put the right creator's on it.

Actually, this thread is really excellent - whether the discussion is being held up by merely two people or thw whole lot of us

Thanks Lardy, for starting this...

and guys (Ricardo and SB) - keep up the good arguments... I feel myself swaying from side to side

This is what Legionfandom is about!

- AND you got me definitely interested in Valiant Comics, which I had so far completey ignored (but which in fact had been recommended to me only recently by Chemical King)

Valiant was definately a high point of that era. Archer and Armstrong was one of the first comics I ever read off the stands (I was about 11-13) and it (and others) hold a special place in my heart.

I was never a huge Valiant fan (too many universes back then-- I was into DC, Marvel, Ultraverse and the Dark Horse 'verse and couldn't handle anymore), but I was and am a huge Giff-fan, so I *had* to get PUNX... PUNX rox, although (iirc) there was a never-published 4th issue. The PUNX MANGA SPECIAL shouldn't be overlooked either! Fun stuff, all of it.

I tried Valiant after Shooter had already left. Judging by those comics, I was way too late! I'd certainly like to read those early Valiants some time, though.

The early issues of Valiant were by far the best. Shooter had a clear vision for his universe and it culminated in "Unity," the company-wide crossover.

This was at a time when I was burned out on crossovers and very resistant to reading another one. Yet "Unity" worked. The story never lost its excitement or focus, and the fact that it was told from multiple characters' viewpoints enhanced the reading instead of distracting from it. Even today, I regard "Unity" as the only company-wide crossover that was ever worth the effort to follow.

(One caveat: Valiant decided in its infinite wisdom to withhold the final installment from readers unless they had bought *every* previous installment. I can't recall how many comics Valiant published at the time, but it was a significant number. If you were like me and didn't happen to read one or two titles, you were excluded from being able to buy the final issue of Unity!

This absurd marketing strategy was the beginning of the end for Valiant; Shooter was fired while the penultimate installments of "Unity" were still on the stands, as I recall, and every book took an almost overnight dive into pointless, meandering, and dull story lines.)

But while Valiant worked, it *really* worked.

Am I crazy or didn't Valiant get it's own companywide reboot at some point, like somewhere near the end of its run, in hopes of enticing new readers with new number ones? Right or wrong?

I recall something to that effect but by then my interest in Valiant had waned. (I've never actually reread any of the stories, only read them when they were coming out then).

I think around that time most of the series were cancelled and the timelines were changed in some (Magnus and Rao?). Somehow this led to a Dan Jurgens run on Solar near the end of its run at Valiant which was actually a last-ditch effort that resulted in a very excellent, but brief run on the character.

yes, post-Shooter Valaint was rebooted as Acclaim, and in my opinion what followed was better than what preceded.

For a reboot, it actually examined the repercussions and details moreso than a DC boot ever did. It actually was cohesive, coherent and made sense, internally and externally.

It's funny that you mentioned it, but I never actually had a look at Valiant until I got on this board

The talk about Shooters big time there made me curious and I just recently started hunting down Valiant stuff on German ebay. Got the Harbinger HC (and the rest of the series as a whole package for 22 Euros) and currently try top track down all that Unity stuff.

But I have to say that the Harbinger HC did not convince me on the same level than 5YL. It is certainly good, but the first seven issues are missing the "big picture" somehow...

As for you and Ricardo debating, keep it on, I love it (though I hardly have the time to actually READ it all )...

As for Giffen: Just got his Aquaman Mini from 1989... not all that bad...

As for an excellent essay about the rise and fall of Valiant comics...

... read this: http://www.sequart.com/columns/index.php?col=13&column=835

It will immeadiately bring you up to date with what happened back then even if you have never heard a single bit about the Valiant universe. very entertaining, by the way...

The last tme I checked idustry sales figures was more than a year ago. I'm not sure if the numbers I'm remembering are from then or the time before that, which might've been in 2006.
Marvel titles dominated the top of the list, and both companies' hits were mostly minis and one-shots. The top-selling DC regular series were Superman, Green Lantern and Supergirl. Apparently, the return of the Silver Age holders of those names brought the titles great success. Has that lasted?

Supergirl...now there's a topic!

We've had a number of versions of Supergirl since the original died back in Crisis on Infinite Earths:

1) The one who originated in John Byrne's follow-up to the Pocket Universe story. She kind of rattled around for a while until she landed in her own series that lasted about 80 issues and featured some of Peter David's best work, IMO. In the debut of that series Matrix was merged with a human Linda Danvers. But at this point it's murky that she ever existed in continuity as there have been so many nip-and-tuck retcons in the Superman mythos since that series ended (ironically, eliminating pretty much all of the mythos Byrne brought to the table in '85).

2) The short-lived Seagle version (with the dark hair) in the short-lived Seagle run as a Superman writer. I think she was from the future and may have descended from Supes and Lois. Not sure how that ended, but I'm pretty sure she's never been mentioned since.

3) The current version who basically has the same origin as the Silver Age Supergirl. From what I've seen and from all accounts, she's a pale reflection of the original who is plagued with zero personality and bad stories.

Of these three (and yes, I haven't forgotten the version of Kara from the Jurgens Superman/Aliens mini or that Power Girl is essentially the Earth-2 Supergirl). I really peferred the Matrix/Linda Danvers version, especially as written by PAD. But I'm pretty sure she's never even mentioned anymore (and wasn't even mentioned when 2 and 3 were introduced), and that means she's probably retconned out. I hear, by the way, that PAD had her appear in some manner in a recent Fallen Angel story.

Honestly, I was never really keen on pre-Crisis Supergirl, except for her relationship with Brainy and her appearances in Levitz's Legion run and in CoIE. Nonetheless, her death in the latter was really an emotional and sad experience for me as a reader. I think Crisis showed me the potential that character always had.

We've heard some arguments about Superboy and saw some strong cases for his being a part of Legion mythos--but what about Supergirl? The current version's recent tun with her on the marquee was pretty unanimously underwhelming, true. But if we're in for a Legion with the ties restored to Kal-El, should Supergirl be included as well? And if so, what version of her and in what capacity?

One thing I always agreed with Byrne was the idea that Superman should be a loner, the only true survivor of Krypton. Not fond of Krypto or Supergirl, whose best story was her death.
I also think the concept of Matrix was really good, as a way of shaking up the mythos and giving a sense of "uniqueness" to Supergirl.
In fact, by staying 2 years away from Superman comics, I simply do not understand what is going on.

I like the uber-powerful Legion...so I am generally pro-chracter, I don't think I've ever wanted to see a Legionaire killed or dropped from the title...well ok there is Sneckie...but I especially like the powerful ones.

I don't think the Legion could serve it's purpose as a multiplanetary or even galactive level Superteam, without a lot of powerful characters...in fact even with a ton of powerful characters it's still hard to sell them as a galactic level team. But anyway, the bigger the better IMO.


So I am in favor of Kara Zor-El..but I'm also in favor of Laurel Gand. I may the only person that likes both of them and wants to see both of them in the title someday, but it's true. I think that'd be cool. Shouldn't have to be an either or choice IMO...


And I think putting Laurel Gand in the book with SuperGirl would actually help her to be viewed less as a Supergirl ripoff...and then it's not like the Legion takes a huge loss is Supergirl is not in the title for a while or anything..but I do like the relationship between her and Brainiac 5...

I also want Thunder back.


I just think'd be $#@%$#%#$ awesome to have a team with 6 Kryptonian Level characters in it...at least. There should always be something going on somewhere to where they are all busy....so it should never be a problem writing stories around them if the writer should want to do so. It's pretty easy if you think about it...there's always going to be some planetary evac or something like that going on somewhere.

Actually, I'm not quite sure - she didn't show that much before the 3boot, did she - apart from that time around GDS?

Can somebody freshen up my memory?

"Pro-character" - there's an interesting term. Though I'm not a fan of an unlimited-power Legion, I do agree it should be a large team, and I wouldn't want to see a character dropped just because I personally wasn't interested in them. (Unlike Keith Giffen and Karate Kid.)
This is why I *don't* want unlimited power in the Legion. Somewhere, I heard someone point out that many Legionnaires are powerful enough to be a planet's champion. (At least one explicitly calls herself that.) But the Legion work as a team. Therefore, any problem that can really challenge the whole Legion usually has to be more than planetary in scale.

I don't like the all-blockbusters approach Morrison's JLA took, or DnA's attempt to bring that format to the Legion. It gets tiring, and leads to writers focusing on "topping" previous stories. If you design a Legion to need that sort of problem, then that's what you'll get.
I've often heard fans say they like both. I always liked Superman, but never Superboy... but I like Supergirl possibly more than Superman. And Laurel Gand was definitely one of the good things to come out of 5YL.
I'd specifically like to see how Andromeda and Dream Girl would get along - there wasn't so much opportunity for that in the past boots.
Now *that's* one of my desires I don't see duplicated nearly as often.
That was what they did in the Silver age. Often, Superboy, Mon-el and Ultra Boy were off on a mission. I didn't like that. I don't like when writers feel they have to write around some major element of a series.

For lack of a better one


That was me that wanted the Legion to have many(not all) members capable of serving as a sole planetary defender.

And you have to understand...with the science of the 31st century there should also be plenty of technology capable of negating those powers as well.


I like underdog teamwork stories...but that's not all I want to read, and if it is, I'll read the X-Men. They've been doing it longer, they do it better, and they've ALWAYS got top level writers and artists. Unlike the Legion.

I see limiting the powerlevels as just that...a limit.


And what sets the Legion apart...is that it's Universe is umlimited...at least it was, and should be again. As should the scope and nature of the stories being told.

Not limited....unlimited. That's what the Legion does that no other team book can. Right down to sticking Superman smack dab in the middle of a story...you don't think the X-Men would like to able to do that? Marvel has been trying to create a Superman for as long as they've been Marvel. But the subconcious and emotional impact of the S Shield can't be imitated...no matter how good the writing is...it is truly Legendary...and not just because some writers are saying it now is. It's more legendary than any writer as well.

I agree 100%, at the same time, I don't like the no blockbusters approach either. I like a balance...not a limit.


You wound me.


She's one of my favorites. I've noticed that I like nearly every original character(and we'll call her an original) of the reboots...it's the screwing with the older characters I generally don't like.

I like Gates...I like XS, I like Gear...wha tI don't like is making Jeckie a snake...just create a snake character if you want a snake character. Don't take away Jeckie, when you can have both. Sure you've gained a snake...but you've lost Jeckie.

Again, that's a limit, that's a subtraction...not an asset.


It's completely realistic when you think about the fact that they have multiple planets to defend...possibly more..


It's really realistic when you consider that what sets the Legion apart...is that their arena of battle was not just planetary, it was also interstellar, extra dimensional, chronal...

The removal of those elements again, served to limit...not to expand.

You don't have to tell stories about all of those elements...but why would you not want to ever be able to tell stories about them?




In fact...it's in the very name of the team...they are Legion.

Def:
Legion - A large military unit trained for combat; an army.
3. A large number; a multitude. See Synonyms at multitude.

Throw in the term Superheroes...and you get the scope of the Legion.


They should be like Star Wars, Dr. Who, and Superman, all rolled into one.


Our guys have a bigger responsiblity than the JLA, JSA and Teen Titans etc combined...

Therfore their power and numbers should be greater than the JLA, JSA, and Teen Titans combined...heck...throw in the Time Masters and the Linear Men while we're at it..


When they take on a guy bent on destroying the Universe, the JLA aren't going to come and save them.


That's just my opinion...it's not so much that I dsiagree with what you think the Legion should be...I just don't think that's all it should be.


And if that is all it is...there are books out there that have done that longer, better, and that are more well known. And why put the Legion a thousand years int he future and anchor them to an Interplanetary Federation like the United Planets if that is the sort of story you want to tell...you can tell that kind of story in a contemporary time setting. And you really wouldn't have any need to call them a Legion either.

Preach on,Brother Superboy.

On Supergirl... I would've preferred they stuck with the idea of her as a "second generation" Legionnaire rather than as a member simultaneous with Superboy. Interestingly, if they'd stuck with that, many of the members we associate as "early" Legionnaires would'nt have joined until much later on, as they were first introduced in Supergirl stories.

On the size/power of the Legion... I've become increasingly convinced that the Legion should be huge. Roughly the size of the GLC, I'd say. Have them stationed in groups of twenty-five on planets throughout the United Planets, and focus the book on one particular group (the Earth-based team, perhaps), but the rest of the group would be "out-there", even if they aren't being focused on at the moment.