Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Glen, it certainly was not all about Lyle, but I used him and the Survivor game results as an example that some good character work has been accomplished in the reboots, and particularly in the decade that the Zero Hour reboot ran.

As I've said before, would it have been such a bad thing to reintroduce the Legion to young Superman thru the current 3Boot/Waid/Kitson/Shooter/Manapul version? I know, they may have blown it by first trying to incorporate Supergirl, but it really wouldn't have taken much wriggling to make it work.

This way, at least, we have less baggage than resurrecting the pre-Crisis version would or will have. For one thing, we don't have all those dead Legionnaires, save for one who is kinda-sorta dead. The characters Waid established were and mostly are blank slates that Shooter has already been able to infuse with more personality, and Manapul's costumes have that modern/futuristic flair that Frank's costumes lack (as doublechinner pointed out).

So is bringing back a 20 year-old version (albeit a popular one) really the answer? Why did DC not try to just connect with this latest version, which they said was the DC's 'official' future anyway, to Superman and help revitalize the property in that manner?

If they had done that, I believe the potential was there to satisfy more fans and build the property for the future, potentially incorporating what was best about all versions in the process. I don't think going twenty years in the past is really the answer.

Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #235 was published in 1978. It featured a story by Levitz and Grell that addressed the aging of the Legion. It explained that youth treatments in the 30th century resulted in people living to be over a hundred years old. This explained why the Legionnaries who were in their twenties were still referred to as "lad", "boy" and "lass". This is is the first time their aging was adressed that specifically. The story featured Superboy. Now, Superboy would still have had to be a teenager if he was referred to Superboy. By the time he was in his twenties he had left Smallville and taken on the name Superman. The passage of time was starting to deal a blow to the original concept of the Legion. Was this a pivotal point in the the Legion outgrowing Superboy, and leading it to becoming a whole new concept? Was this a good thing or a bad thing?

I personally liked the story, and the explanation carried a lot of weight with me. It was much easier for me to swallow than the idea that the team had been around since 1959, had so many adventures, but were still teenagers. What do you guys think?

Paul Levitz hates that story, and refers to it as a mistake. And he wrote it!

And he is right. It is a bit stupid and, as a vulcanian says, highly illogical.

Buckle up, kids, this one's a long answer...

Supporters of the Zero Hour reboot always used to say that people would flock to it over time. It was around for ten years, so it can't be argued that it didn't have its day in the sun. In the end, it was rebooted by the guy who started it.

Supporters of the current three-boot argue that it should be given time to find its audience. I don't think DC wants to chance spending another decade which might not achieve the desired result, given the success of "Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes" in Action Comics, and all the hype surrounding Legion of Three Worlds. I think they want to strike while the iron is hot, but that's just speculation on my part.

This much is true: the original Legion of Super-Heroes had a proven track record of success. As a new thread on this very board shows, the Legion was the best-selling team book in the 1960s. It outsold the Fantastic Four, Justice League, and every single comic that Marvel made until 1969, when Spider-Man passed it (although the Legion switched to Action that year, and Action outsold Spidey, so those numbers are a little bit jumbled).

When the Legion got the lead in Superboy in the 70s, it continued its best-selling ways. At one point, it was DC's absolute best-selling title. In the 80s, it was DC's second best-selling title. It only lost its title when it went direct-only in the middle of the decade, and that's when the numbers started to drop. To be fair, there were two marketplaces for comics to be sold (newsstands and comic book stores), and new Legion stories were only being sold in one of them. Once the reprint title died on the stands, that just left one Legion comic in one market. Without access to both markets, it was inevitable that it wouldn't sell as well.

Then came 5YL, and we all know the mixed results that had. Then came the Zero Hour reboot, and while it did better than 5YL initially, over time sales dropped down to the 13,000 level. The series was restarted and then rebooted again, and here we are today, with a title hovering around the 30,000 mark.

The original Legion of Super-Heroes was always a best-selling book, right up until it had one of its legs kicked out from under it. People are excited about it returning in the DCU. All it has to do is sell as well as the current Legion book and it's at least a sideways step. If it sells more, then it's a step forward for the company.

I know there are people here who have been with the Legion through thick and thin, and emotional fatigue is setting in. All I can say to that is, I get where you're coming from, but not everyone out there is like you. I think most Legion fans will keep buying the book no matter what DC does to it (they have so far), and I think they'll get back a lot of people who haven't read the Legion in a long while because every time they pick up a Legion comic, it's not the Legion that they remember. I think there are a lot more of those people than people here think.

I get that people personalize comic books that they like. I get that if they like a given series, they think that if only other people give it a chance, they'll like it, too. It doesn't work that way. People like what they like, and there's no changing tastes. Every month, the Legion sells fewer comics than it sold the month before. Does that mean it's not a good book? No. Does that mean that the people responsible for it aren't talented? No. It means that over the last few years, DC has done everything it can to get people to read the series, short of bringing back the original Legion, and sales continue to slump.

They've put top talent on it. No one can argue with that. They put Mark Waid and Barry Kitson on it. They brought Jim Shooter back, and teamed him with a hot, young artist. They put Supergirl in the group when she was red hot, and she boosted sales... and then the slide continued, and the book ended back up where it was before she joined. In other words, no permanent gains were made. The only thing DC hasn't done in all these years is bring back the original Legion of Super-Heroes, the version of the team that was a perennial best-seller for decades. Are they going to do it? It sure looks like it. Does it mean they'll cancel the three-boot? Maybe. Maybe they'll have two Legion titles, or maybe they'll decide that the market can only bear one, and go with the one that they think stands the best chance of success. But I think that the argument that the Legion of twenty years ago isn't the answer is a weak one.

The industry is kept alive today by readers who were around twenty years ago. That has a lot to do with economics and distribution (which, in and of itself, has everything to do with economics), but that's the way things are. If you're a salesman and you're selling ice cubes, I don't care how well they sold in Atlanta, the Eskimos aren't buying. You have to sell to the customers you have, not the ones you wish you had, especially if the intrastructure of the industry is beyond your power to fix. There are a lot of things wrong with this industry, and at the end of the day, that's irrelevant. The situation is what it is, and DC has to play the cards it has, not the ones it wants.

I get that people feel like they made an investment in the current series, and if it goes away, they'll feel betrayed. It happens. The only thing I can say to that is, how long did you think it was going to last? If there's one thing the reboot and three-boot have in common, it's this: they're not the original Legion of Super-Heroes, and they will always be compared to the original Legion of Super-Heroes (something which the original Legion of Super-Heroes doesn't have to worry about). The reboot didn't last. Why do you assume the three-boot will be different?

I always liked that story but that's because the cover is one of my all time favorites. That was definitely one I bought on the stands.

I actually never thought about the fact that Superboy wasn't aging as slowly as the Legion until you just mentioned it.

I was never big on the whole aging thing...X-Men don't really age, Spiderman doesn't. I don't see it's been a big selling point, although I do understand quite a few Legion fans do. I know that's always something Paul Levitz mentioned. Come to think of it...I think he's the first creator that really made the aging thing an issue and I think he did it beginning with that story. I can't recall aging ever being mentioned outside of an Adult Legion story prior to that story.

I don't know that the Legion became something new then, but I guess if that is where the aging thing began in a way, then it did bring something new. But I also know the Conway era came shortly after it, which isn't usually considered a high point for the book. Although he Earthwar certainly is.

Not everything people do makes sense. In any given team title, any reader will prefere certain characters. Some will only read the title for those characters. Give me a Legion book whose core team is Superboy, Timber Wolf, Element Lad, Wildfire and Colossal Boy, and I probably won't bother reading it.

Just wanted to add...the Legion also outsold Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Hakwman, Atom...they even outsold Batman half the time. In fact the only characrers they didn't outsell in the SA...were the other memberws of the Superman Family.


If you acknowledge the fact that Jimmy Olsen and and Lois Lane were basically Superman titles or not true Superhero titles because they featured non powered supporting characters...

That means the only superhero titles in all of comicdom that outsold the Legion for the decade, were Superman, and Superboy. And the Legion was written in a different style for the second half of that decade. It was written in a Marvel Style moreso than any other DC Book.

Superman, Batman, and Superboy all were featured in at least two titles from the Golden Age, until the 80's.

So at that point of the Byrne retcon...he didn't just remove a meaningless obscure fringe character from the Legion...

He retconned the third most successful Superhero in history(basically spanning 50 years of history) up to that point out of existence, and the Legion was built entirely upon the mythos of that character.


That's not a minor retcon...that's a nuclear annihilation.


And there were two guys at the meeting where it was done that new exactly what it was going to do the Legion IMO..

One of them was John Byrne...from his own words. His idea was to turn the entire Legion into an Elseworlds Continuity basically.


The other one was Paul Levitz...who knew better than anyone...and said nothing.

Why? He probably glanced at the title "Publisher" on Jeanatte Kahn's door and then bit his lip.

The rest of DC didn't have a clue what they were doing...until the Legion sales plummeted after that retcon, and it went from being a top 20 comic for virtually all of it's history...to being one that struggled to stay in the top 40. That's what lead to the PU Superboy story.

And that struggling to stay in the top 40(Hell the top 60 most of the time)

is a trend that has continued all the way up to this day.


For comparison, imagine the X-Men retconning Wolverine out of their history, to where he couldn't even be mentioned. I guarantee you they wouldn't be the same book. I don't care if they retconned SabreTooth or even TimberWolf into his place...it just wouldn't be the same.


Imagine Star Trek retconning Kirk or Spock out of their history...and replacing them with Picard.

Hell...imagine them retconning Kirk out and then retconning Spock, or better yet Uhura and saying ok, Uhura is now Kirk and all the stories happened. That's what they did to the Legion...it's no mystery why this title has struggled since that decision was made...it's spelled out in floodlights, and I can't really understand why there is so much debate over it.


Well actually I do know why there is so much debate over it...because many vocal hardcore Legion fans don't like Superboy, for whatever reason, but the impact of the character on this title is undeniable. And the failure to acknowledge that is akin to cutting the Legion's own throat.

Johns instantly gets that...and that's probably why he's one of the most successful writers to come down the pike in a while...especially with DC characters. And that's why his Legion picks up from before that decision was made...and that's why it's easily going to be accepted as the Original(evne by the fans that don't like Superboy)...no matter what other changes he makes.


IMO, he's going to retcon all sorts of stuff into their that was never there before. Probably having to do with Superman's development. But the main difference...is his retcons won't be taking stuff away(from the original anyway), they'll be adding stuff to it...whereas the Byrne and most Post Crisis retcons...subtracted more than they added. And those retcons had the dual negative impact of severely limiting the types of stories that could be told with the Legion. Basically rendering them a typical Superteam at the conceptual level, instead of one which could tell any type of story imaginable(the best thing comics have going for them as an entertainment medium), sometimes even using the most legendary character in all of comicdom.

Superboy

Even though I grant you some of your arguments (the importance of Superboy to the foundation of LSH, most of all), you seem to be over-valuating some points for the sake of placing Superboy as the main LSH character (which he is not).
Various comments here show that reasons unrelated to the presence of Superboy/Superman hurt Legion sales. Or the other way round.
You can't even begin to compare DC's situation today with the 60s. It's not a LSH thing: it is a company thing (DC has just one title around the top 10 - and that was due to its writer, not its title - and this is a trend that is evolving since the 80s: the author's comic book).
I think it is a bit pretentious to say that in one hand you had Byrne machiavelling against a powerless and power-hungry Levitz. DC decided to give Byrne full reign over Superman and it was very, very successful. Deal with it. It hurt LSH? In a sense, but not at all more than Legion on The Run. Legion was a strong seller for a decade after moving to Baxter format. It was the leading Baxter/Deluxe Format title for a long time.
I can't even begin to discuss the comparison between Wolverine and Superboy in their own teams. Superboy was an inspiration to LSH and his presence was always seen as an special event. Wolverine was X-Men's main character, present in every single X-team for 40 years. I'd say Brainiac is the Wolverine of LSH in that sense. Hell, Jonn Jonzz is the Wolverine of JLA and nobody is giving much of a tear for his obvious absence in Justice League.

LSH is not a Superman title, in my opinion, and it shouldn't be. It's not even a Superman and the Outsiders-type of book. It's a team INSPIRED by Superman legacy. But it lives on its own time, chronology, mythos and characters. As about ten years of SOLID storytelling after the retcon proved.

On the aging thing, it is my belief that had Weisinger stayed on the book a few more years, he would have aged the Legionnaires into the Adult Legion. He was already doing this kind of thing with Supergirl, and there are hints that he was thinking quite a bit about the fistory of the Legion late in the Adventure run (check out the stuff revealed in lettercolumns). I think the introdution of Chemical King with his adult-sounding name is one indication of this.

I'd never made that connection before, EDE. We all knew CK was going to die (we'd already seen his statue didn't we?) but Shooter's original story didn't tell us WHEN Condo Arlik was going to make the supreme sacrifice to save the Earth from a world war.

Chemical Kid would have been just as alliterative and more in line with the the team names everyone else possessed..and just as likable a name. That does hint at a deeper purpose behind Chemical King taking the oath.

Incidentally, did we ever get to see that version of Quantum Queen?

..and don't get me started on issue #300 and the Shadow Woman/Science Asteroid stuff.

I liked that story, too, Jerry, or at least the idea behind it. I didn't care for its execution: The Legion brainwashing Superboy into not wondering about their secret not only betrayed their friendship, but it suggested that the Legion could not trust Superboy, even though 1) he was the greatest hero in history, and 2) he was a regular visitor to the 30th century and must have seen countless miracles that could have prolonged the lives of his loved ones.

Still, I loved the idea of the Legionnaires aging and still being called "Lad," "Lass," etc. It was a convenient and logical explanation--and one that was never referred to again, nor did it need to be. In one swoop, Levitz opened the door for the Legion to really grow up, a theme he would pursue throughout his second and highly acclaimed tenure as Legion writer.

It is for this last reason that I find Levitz's later denunciation of the story ironic. After all, it only opened the door for such changes. Levitz didn't have to guide the Legion through that door in his second tenure, but he did.

(Glen, did Levitz say why he hates that story?)

As you note, Jerry, SUPERBOY # 235 also opens another door--the unfortunate discrepancy between Superboy's age and the Legionnaires' ages. But I suggest that this discrepancy had been going on for years. If one accepts as literal the idea that the Legion held leadership elections every year, then they must have passed Superboy's age by the end of the ADVENTURE run. (In fact, going over it in my head just now, the ADVENTURE leadership terms were held by Cosmic Boy*, Saturn Girl, Saturn Girl, Brainiac 5, Invisible Kid, and Ultra Boy--which means that Cos would have aged from 14 to 19 during that period. Superboy, in keeping with contemporary 20th century traditions, would likely have started calling himself Superman around age 18.)

SUPERBOY # 235, therefore, did not create this discrepancy; it only made it harder to ignore.

But, even so, it's a discrepancy I more than learned to live with, as Superboy's presence in the Legion was so valuable. Whenever he appeared as a guest during the later runs, it truly was an event. It overshadowed such "logical" considerations as his age regresson.

One has to accept a certain amount of suspension of disbelief in super-hero comics, and that certainly was on issue I was willing to grant them. (Plus, certainly a writer of Levitz's caliber could have come up with an explanation for why 18-year-old Superboy continued to hang out with his 28-year-old comrades--or, better yet, just start calling him Superman!)


* Cos was later retconned by Levitz into having two leadership terms. This, of course, would make him 20 at the conclusion of the ADVENTURE run!

Good observation, Eryk. Like Yellow Kid, I'd never made the connection before. I'd always thought the name Chemical King was kind of odd (perhaps it indicated that Condo was egotistical?), but now it makes sense.

Around the time that Levitz was writing the Legion for the first time, he was also writing ALL-STAR COMICS, in which he approached aging from a different perspective: by showing the Justice Society to be middle-aged.

Of course, the JSA had been aging since they were revived in the early '60s. Jay Garrick was shown to have grey hair at the temples. The Golden Age Robin was introduced as an adult around 1970.

But in the late 1970s, Levitz wrote an article for Amazing World of DC Comics, in which he postulated the JSAers to be in their late 50s. That was a conservative estimate--members such as Dr. Mid-Nite and Johnny Thunder would certainly have been past 60 (Mid-Nite was a physician in 1940, and Thunder's birth year was established to be 1917)--but the JSA had been aging before the Legion.

Speaking of Superboy...



http://www.coolfrenchcomics.com/superboy.htm

Oh oh..found this just now..

Rein of the Superboy

Interesting...that Superboy title ceased publishing original stories with issue #247.

It's just uncanny...that number.

He was...during the peaks of the book's popularity. And I don't know that "main character" would be the words I would use to describe his impact on the book. More like a presence...that helps the book and sets them apart from any other book.


Comments are one thing...but there is scant proof of those conclusions...and really, I don't know how anyone cane make the claim that losing the most recognizable chracter is going to increase the books relevance or chances of success.

How about the 70's?


I'd disagree with that...I'd say it's due to a variety of factors, inclding the characters being used, and the fact that it is a relaunch.

And it's still DC's top seller and that writer hasn't been on the book for 10 issues now.


I think the success of books was always creatively driven...evne when the creators weren't credited. That's nothing new.

But that's just one factor...

Creator driven
Event driven
Character driven.

See the 30k sale bump the Legion got from adding Supergirl to the title if you doubt.


I look and still see the same titles that emerged in the Bronze Age doing well in this era...with the exception of the Legion....which has fallen off the map.


Think what you like...but I was basically paraphrasing John Byrne's recounting of the meeting...by his own words Levitz said nothing. And Byrne challenged his forum members to ask Levitz why.


They could have done a dozen things that would have been just as successful...events can stil drive Superman...see the Death of Superman in the 90's for a better example of this.

Deal with it? I read it....I deal with it gleefully now that Byrne's version is retconned out.


Depends on your definition of strong...it dropped out of the top 20 and lost readers after the COIE, as the rest of the market surged.

No it never was...it was outsold by the Titans and Marvel Fanfare...always and it didn't sell as well as it did prior to the direct market.

How about the fact that the X-men were around for a decade before Wolverine was? While the Legion was not.

Absolutely false...he was in nearly every Legion story from 1958 to 1979. It was not unique at all for him to be in a story...and this was mirrored by the writers at the subconcious level IMO.


Ditto Superboy for 20 years...with the difference being that a handful of Legionaires were spun completely out fo the Superman mythos...whereas none of the X-Men were.

You know what happend when the Legin removed Superboy? The X-men passed them...everyone passed them.


And I'd say that if you took a picture of Brainiac 5, Superboy, Wolverine and the MM and showed them to people you meet on the street...90% of the people you meet would dispell your impression of the importance of Brainiac 5 and the Martian Manhunter.



Revisionism at it's finest, for that is not the truth at all...and revisionism the belief of which, is largely responsible for the Legion's sub 50 sales rank since the revision was made.


There is nothing unique about being inspired by Superman...by default, everyu character, every team, was inspired by Superman, whether it is stated, or not. Nothing unique about that...that mqakes the Legion typical, not unique.

After the Crisis the Legion's sales and sales rank dropped drastically, even as the rest of the market surged.


You say times changed...I say Spiderman, the Teen Titans, the X-Men...stayed at about the same status with a few tides and ebbs, the Legion did not. And the Titans dropped because they lost all their popular members.


Back to your original point about comics being creator driven...they're totally creator driven if they haven no inherent appeal on their own...and I'd say that's exactly what the Byrne retcon regelated the Legion into being. A book that has to have a good writer to sell...actually it doesn't really sell when it has a good writer either. And additionally the fan base that is reading it is unhappy with the product.

Like I say Ricardo...I want you to show me an era of the Legion where Superboy was a part of it that proves your point that concept lost it's appeal and it's time passed and that the market rejected it.

That's simply not true, there is not a shred of credible evidence to verify that point...you will not find that era, for it does not exist, but you can find plenty of eras of the Legion losing relevance, commercially and critically when forced to fend for itself.

You want the Legion to be just another team book? Only one with no tethers to anyone or anything else? You better get Alan Moore to write it...

And since he's a Superman fan(Silver Age Superman Fan at that) he probably wouldn't think it's a good idea either.

Just like Waid.
Just like Giffen.
And the Bierbaums.
And Levitz.
And Geoff Johns...

And even John Byrne, the guy who did it in the first place.

And this becomes a problem for all of us because DC keeps rebooting the @#$#$@ book.

I won't show you what other people has shown here... I don't even think I am that good in proving so. If DC knew, they would add Superman to all their books, or maybe Superboy. It would add 30k to their readership, at least. Why don't they do that?
It is a simplistic way to prove my point, but I never doubted that Superman would drive sales to LSH. This was not the main point. The main point is that LSH can sell well (under DC's circumstances) without Superman. Better with? Probably, but then again, JLI would sell better with Superman but it went fine otherwise.
Batman would also add sales to LSH? What about a LSH featuring mostly versions of actual DCU heroes, kinda like a Titans of the Future?
Sorry, this is not how it should be handled. LSH is a fine book that, well written, can go well without Superman. It wasn't just another team book, for reasons I've also mentioned (adult, not chronologically restrained, long history baggage, sci-fi). The presence of Superman DOESN'T change that necessarily, but would not make it different from any other book (Superman is the leader of the JLA anyway).

And, again, in my opinion, the reboots are caused for destroying ALL LSH concepts, not for Superboy's being retconned. LSH doesn't grow, characters are flat-out boring, the Lad concept should be gone by now (hey, they were adults!)...

Could you link me to where they show it?

Is it that graph by Michael Grabois?

If you notice his latest version of that graph is drastically different than the one you have been posting...due to the fact that he can't get accurate numbers for the first 10 years of the direct market Legion...

Here's what I believe to be the most recent one:





I have the luxury of going by memory, for they published the sales rankings in Amazing Heroes and CBG back then.


The Pre Crisis Baxter Legion was DC's second best selling direct market title behind the Titans(ahead of Infinity Inc., the Omega Men and Vigilante) and it sold 80-90k copies monthly. By the end of the Crisis it was selling 60k....even as Frank Miller and Alan Moore were making comics legitimate foundations for college courses, and the hot topic for literary intellectuals to be discussing...

The Legion was arguably the most adult oriented team book of that time...yet it did not reap the benefits of that audience expansion...that adult audience expansion. It sales dropped...coinciding exactly with the Byrne retcon.


Well they do...he does appear in a great many titles.


But see what set the Legion apart(to their benefit), was that they were firmly entrenched into the Superman Family as Jimmy Olsen or Lois Lane...

And their removal from that branch of the DC family tree...not only hurt them, it hurt Superman as well....just like removing Lois Lane would.


Superman has never been the same since the Legion was removed from his mythos either.


It takes much more effort and work to get the Legion to sell well once those ties are severed...


Like I said Ricardo...Alan Moore isn't walking through that door to save us.

In fact a great number of the hottest writers and artists over the last 20 years have attempted just that, and failed...in fact, they were the worst selling Legions ever.


Olivier Copiel
Stuart Immonen
Mark Waid
Roger Stern
DnA
Gail Simone

Jim freaking Shooter...

Failed Legion writers at the commercial level(comparitively)...everyone of them.

It's not the writing Ricardo...


And I'll say this as well...it takes a better writer to have sustained and original success writing about dark complex themes than it does just to write a straight Legion with it's unlimited story telling potential.


Batman appearing regularly with the Legion is not realistic at all...and never has been. He's not a routine time Traveler as Superman was.

Maybe the Flash and GL...other than that it wouldn't be a good mix.


When and where?

That TMK Legion you are so fond of, was constantly teasing fans about returning to the original concept...

That's you're opinion...but there are scant few professional opinions that agree with it.


All that is silly...Superboy was a time traveller...he could interact with them at any age, ditto they him.

Superman could team up with the youngest version of the Legion...

The 5YG age Legion could have gone back in time to interact with Superboy...

Time travel...the age at which they intersect is not a barrier.

It's funny reading the exchanges between Superboy and Ricardo (seems this thread and the Shooter thread have morphed into The Great Superboy/Ricardo Debates ), absorbing the arguments and counterarguments and seeing how the crux of the argument plays out:

Superboy equates stronger sales (in the form of Superboy's presence) with quality and longterm viability. Reattach Legion to the Superman mythos, where he says its always belonged, and it will again be a top seller like it hasn't been in about a quarter century.

Ricardo sees Superboy as a crutch and would like to see the Legion progress to its full potential, complete with aging and more mature storylines. I believe Ricardo thinks that committing to a more mature and innovative approach will eventually bring the sales with it.

It's not hard to figure out which eras of the Legion that each poster is a fan of. And both arguments are sound.

From a more neutral perspective, I'd have to say that both posters are absolutely right. However...both posters are wrong at the same time.

How is Superboy right? Well, it's hard to argue that tying the Legion back into the Superman legacy would be a smart business move for DC regarding the Legion property. I mean, look at how they decided to tie him into the recent cartoon--ultimately it only lasted a couple of seasons, but would it have ever even gotten the greenlight without including Superman? And the sales data is very persuasive, not only the sales trends over the Legion 50 years but the sales of the Action Comics arc. The Legion would almost certainly be a sales success for possibly quite some time given that data.

Why is Ricardo also right? Well, certainly good, innovative writing with dramatic changes in direction on characters who've been around a while has proven successful in recent years. I mean, just look at Captain America, for one. Cap had really struggled to carry his own book for any length of time over the last couple of decades. Now, the book has a top-caliber writer with a really mature look and feel and a longterm storyline including really dramatic twists--and its a big, big seller and earning awards up the wazzoo. It's not a stretch to see that happening with the Legion, really. They've had staying power and have attracted huge fanbases at times.

Now, how could Superboy be wrong? Well, part of what's wrong is that DC can't call young Superman Superboy for the foreseeable future. Hell, there's even the possibility they could eventually lose Superman altogether! What would THAT do to the Legion? Even if that happens, would "Superman and the Legion" or "Young Superman..." or "Clark Kent..." really connect in the way "Superboy..." did or would with the nostalgic fans that Superboy cites continually? And also how well have ancillary Superman titles done in recent years? Remember when we had four ongoings and a fifth week quarterly? The Kon-El Superboy title? The Linda Danvers/Matrix Supergirl title? Steel? Is the Kara Zor-El title going strong? (not sure exactly, though I've heard the title is a real stinker of a read) Superman/Batman and JLA are pretty strong because of his direct involvement, and that would imply Kal would need to remain directly and continuously involved with LSH to sustain it. Who's to say that will even work again?

{b]How is Ricardo wrong?[/b] Well great, award-winning writing and a daring, innovative direction are far from a guarantee of success. I mean, how many critically-lauded runs on comics have been cancelled? Basically, the only mainstream superhero comics that are healthy in sales longterm, as Superboy says, have their roots in the Silver and Bronze Ages. Anything else that is "new", like Runaways or the current Manhunter, have to fight tooth and nail to survive and still may not be around next year for all that. Legion qualifies as having been around both eras, but it's certainly been on the fringe for a long time. Maybe it can be reborn like Iron Fist has recently in this manner, but will it, as Iron Fist probably won't, survive a creative change when that initial infusion decides to call it quits? Creative team are pretty mercurial these days, so don't look for someone to commit for more than a couple of years, if even that.

So my point is that neither of these approaches come with any guarantees, gentlemen. It seems like the Legion has been on the verge of being cancelled altogether for twenty years. And yet somehow, it's survived, if not exactly thrived. In any case the decision is pretty much certainly out of our hands.

Yes, I'd put money down that the rumors are true, and we'll soon see a relaunch after L3W which will be something pretty close to what we saw in that Action Comics arc, probably with heavy involvement from Superman. And, as usual, I don't expect that relaunch to satisfy all or even most of the fans. Is it the right thing to do? Only time will tell. I just hope in another few years, DC won't change their minds again, or worse, we won't have any Legion to enjoy at all, other than our back issues, trades and Archives.

And one other thing...Superman adds to the Sci-Fi potential...not limits.

#1. He is time traveling. A cornerstone of Sci-Fi.

#2. Superman is the greatest Science Fiction character ever created and his mythose were constructed entitely by Science Fiction writers...hardcore Sci-Fi fans.

Even when Mort was ripping them off...he was ripping off the best.


And as for the Levitz Legion which is constantly referenced as a period of success for the Superman Free Legion...


Superboy was back in the book as a full member when he began his second run.

Levitz had Superboy appear in 7 of his first 10 Legion stories...

And the he constructed what is arguably the Legion's greatest story...the GDS.

The GDS is built around a Superman Villian(Darkseid) who first appeared in Jimmy Olsen no less. Not only is Superboy in it...but Supergirl is in it as well...not to mention the Superman clone...and an entire planet of Superman based characters and Superman powered villian...

That's not distancing itself from the Superman mythos...that's a taking a head first plunge into them.

And then what did Levitz do? He used Supergirl more than any other writer in Legion history.


And he had plans for a big arc featuing Superboy and Supergirl(per the lettercol of TLOSH #318) that he never got to use due to the COIE.


Paul Levitz used the Superman family...he had just been edting the Superboy strip in Adventure before he came back to the Legion...he was the VP of circulation...if anyone knew the impact, it was he. And he said so in those lettercols.


Did Levitz use them in every story? No...but he also let it be known that they might appear at any point, just like any other Legionaires...and he never removed Superboy as an active member until 1985, when I assume DC dictated that he do so.

See IMO, Levitz found the perfect balance...you don't use him every story, but you also don't eliminate the chance of him appearing...that balance was destroyed at the time of the Crisi, not by Levitz either.

Lardy...I'll give you your thread back...Ricardo and I just going at each other saying the same things over and over again probably isn't particularly entertaining to anyone other than us.


But what I will say in closing is this...I have not been leading some kind of charge against every version but the original...I've read them all.

IMO, the 5YG would have been a hell of a lot better with Superman in it as Giffen himself intended...but it still wouldn't have felt like the Legion to me.


My favorite version of all the Post Crisis Legions is the W&K Legion. I am not in favor of it's cancellation...at all.

I am in favor of two books...


Even if DC only publishes one...I am not in favor of retconning other Legions out of existence...why not just leave htem on a different earth...at least then you can go back to them without a huge contrived storyline.


And finally most of us agree that the Legion is a Sci-Fi book...I will just say that Superman is a Sci-Fi character, and he has among the most elaborate, fantastic, and well constructed Sci-Fi mythos in all of comicdom...those are a tremendous resource for the Legion.

You make Brainiac 5 a Superintelligent(often slightly unbalanced) decendant of Brainiac in love with Superman's own cousin...and you have some intersting aspects not readily available to most characters...

You eliminate that and he's a smart green guy.


Mon-El? You eliminate Superman and instead of being tied into Superman's mythos at the personal level, he becomes an imitaion of Superman.


I'll read whatever Legion books they put out...but to me there's something missing without Superman..and I understand completely why those that read Legions after the retcon do not miss that...at the same time, there aren't enough of them, and we're all in the same boat of getting rebooted and retconned ad infintum if the sales aren't there. So they are important...

I just wanted to add that I don't find that my ideas of what LSH should be are anything closer to what would sell more. Superboy is probably closer to the truth than I am. I just wanted to point out that having Superman back is not a guarantee that LSH will be a good best-selling title anymore. Much less a good read.
And despite Shooter being a great draw to the title now, he is hardly a writer, these days, who would be attracting any one but us. Hell, not even the return of Levitz or Giffen would, in my opinion.
Give LSH to Grant Morrison or Matt Fraction and THEN we would see what would happen.

Unfortunately Shooter isn't much of a draw...that's the problem. But he did provide a nice bump when he took over the book...everytime something is done with this book it gets a bump, that tells me the interest there...but DC hasn't put it all together yet.


Did you ever read any of Shooter's Valiant stuff? It was extremely complex...particularly Unity. Some consider the crowning achievement of 90's comics creatively.

When listenting to you and Chemical King talk about the kinds of stories you like...I keep thinking you guys would have liked the Valiant stuff under Shooter.


In terms of the mechanics of writing, particuarly sci-fi IMO Shooter is on the short list of the greatest minds ever to work in comics.

His dialogue will always be fairly cheesy though. I think it's intentional.
Common ground...sign me up for a Morrison Legion...although looking at the success he had with AS Superman which is basically a modern interpretation of the Silver Age Superman...I'm not so sure it would bear much resemblance to a straight Sci-Fi title.

Alas for all of us...Grant has said that after Final Crisis he's not going to be doing anything but writing Batman for a while.