Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

I, too, bought v.4 # 1 off the stands, but dropped it with # 4 or 5, as I alluded to in a previous post. I picked it up again for a year starting around # 40, then bought the rest as back issues some years later.

For the record, I bought v.4 off the stands myself. I remember not knowing what to make of it those first couple of issues, but I remember being drawn in by the death of Blok in #3 and then by the Mon-El/Time Trapper battle and Mordruverse in 4 and 5. By the time the story resumed with the new timeline in #6, I was totally hooked. And from there, the title almost always stood out as my "best of the week" in the stash it was a part of and was pretty much always the first one read among those. I'd have to admit that even continued being the case thru "Legion on the Run" as those characters had such a grasp on me.

I'd also like to take a moment to comment on how refreshing the tone of this discussion of 5YL is, considering how polarized we are on the subject. Back in the DC Boards days, similar discussions of 5YL often got a little nasty! Abin's 5YCrap remark aside ( ), this discussion of it is a complete 180 from how those typically went. Yes, it's "The Legion World Way", but even here some discussions have occasionally gotten a little out of hand.

Other than LW's generally cooler heads, I think maybe time is playing a factor. As we get further and further away from the 5YL era, perhaps neither side no longer feels the need to either fiercely defend or crucify it like we used to. Honestly, I myself probably went too far a time or two in my arguments over 5YL with posters like Greybird back in the day.

I'm curious, though. Some of the 5YL supporters in this thread have conceded some of the storyline's specific flaws, as well as sympathized with those who felt the LSH's very premise was defiled by the era. I'm wondering, with this particular iron curtain of Legion fandom seeming less impenetrable now, if the 5YL haters might concede anything about the era at all that they actually liked a little (or at least didn't totally hate)?

Okay, when Lardy is chiding me about the tone of my comments...

At SDCC on 06 Kent and I were lucky enough to spend a few moments in private conversation with Paul Levitz. The conversation started about an exchange Paul and I had at an earlier panel concerning DC's plans for video productions of classic story-lines. He had asked for suggestions and I immediately brought up the Great Darkness Saga. Unfortunately he immediately listed all of the reasons why the GDS wouldn't be done on video. That conversation turned into a discussion of our favorite "eras" in Legion history. During that conversation, much to Kent's horror, I called the 5YL the 5YC. Paul seemed to take the comment in stride and because of a few other remarks made during that conversation I came away with the impression that if DC could wipe the 5YL/TMK era out of the collective memories of Legion Fans, they would in a heartbeat.

But to be fair, I believe Kent came out of that conversation with an entirely different impression, so perhaps it would be best if he posted his recollection of that conversation.


Many of the characters introduced during the 5YL seem to be worthy of being brought back. Kent Shakespeare, Kono, Celeste Rockfish-McCauley, and Devlin O'Ryan among others should get a second chance.

But understand I'm only talking about characters that were introduced during that era. The multitude of characters that were mutilated during that era should be completely forgotten.

Just say NO to Proty/Garth, Furball, Bounty, Sun Boy in Wildfire's containment suit, etc...

Hey! Mine are normally line-crossers in the sense they're a little too 'sexually suggestive'! C'mon--saying something a little racy never got a body in trouble, right?

Betcha he did! Well, Kent?

How about one of my personal faves, Laurel Gand, Chuck? Or was she too much a "mutilation" in your opinion of Kara Zor-El? If so, I'd be curious how you would marry that to Kent being "worthy" when some feel he was an obvious Superboy rip.

Also, I wanted to remind you all of this thought I solicited comments on early last page as another potential topic in our roundtable:

Well?

It's beginning to sound like you're taking this personally, Tony. No she's not a Mutilation of a previously existing character but she already received a second chance during the reboot (and wound up pretty much mutilated there) which is why she didn't make my original list. But yeah, Laurel "Andromeda" Gand deserves a third chance. And before you go there I realize that Kono appeared in the reboot also but if I remember correctly it was 2 -3 issues in an unresolved sub-plot and she never even met any of the Legionnaires.

Kent Shakespeare is worthy because a good friend of mine likes him enough that he modeled his on-line persona after him.

I am of the opinion that virtually every super-strong, flying, invulnerable hero with super-senses is a Superman/boy rip-off but that doesn't stop me from enjoying Mon-El and Ultra Boy in the Legion. And IIRC Kent has enough differences to make him interesting in his own right. He is a very reluctant warrior who would much rather care for the victims than chase down the perps. That alone makes him a very different character.

And to answer your second question - while covering up the fact that I just accidentally double posted - Foundations was bad for two major reasons.

1. It was a poor attempt to re-do the Great Darkness Saga.

2. It attempted to bring Clone-El into the re-booted Legion Continuity.

But I don't know if DnA ever really Jumped the Shark. Foundations always seemed more of a single questionable editorial decision rather than a trend. I believe that DnA could have recovered their momentum if they'd have been given a chance to tell new stories instead of re-doing old ones.

Actually, I'd forgotten you made the 5YC comment until you reminded me of it here. From that conversation, I recall recommending an All-Star Legion book, and discussing that there should be something special for the 50th anniversary. I do recall you asking about the GDS animated, but I don't recall the response.

good points.

one could extrapolate that any costumed hero with posthuman powers is a Supe rip off, but especially those with similar powers. Yet blantant rip-offs like Alan Moore's Supreme and AC's Samaritan have at times been better embodiments of Supe than the "official" versions.

Even Superboy, as a sort-of separate character, is a rip-off; and I prefer a Mon-El to a costumed teen Kal (if one has to choose between them). Kent was neat because he was a warrior, but not 100% invincible like Supe; and he was also a medic and a thinker.

I fully agree with Abin about DnA. Clearly by Foundations part 2, they were being steered away from the outline they intended, and steered toward the door. The tidbits Chris Batista has dropped suggest to me DnA were in the process of building a second wind.

Ok, this is going to be a bullet post

beautiful sentiments.


On to other things. Lardy, you certainly may call me Steph.

Everyone, wow, it has been great reading your posts, I still dislike the 5YL Legion, but there is a certain beauty to what you say and what YOU see in it, I don't see the same thing, but I do respect your love for it.

I read DnA's Legion after the fact but I do have the entire run of The Legion. Dream Crimes was a good arc, but I thought the "Imra fantasy" scenes were really random and really drawn out. Also, the ending felt a bit rush. But I like the set-up issues I just think they could have been more technicaly sound.

Foundations, yeah, I don't know what is up with that. First off, Clone-El Superboy was my first fave comic character, and man did DnA just dump on him. I am still confused why Cos treated him like he did, after all, they had already met/adventured with Kon twice (at the time of getting foundations I thought I had missed a reboot somewhere). So I still don't know why Cos expected Kon to be like "Superman as a boy" and a bunch of the stuff going on with him seemed really out of left field. Which most of Foundations seems like.

However, I know a lot of people love the Robitica storyline, but I've always been pretty well underwhelmed by it. Of course, getting and reading DnA in a clump you see "the blight", (only a part of Legion Lost which I will agree is Awesome) then you have the Evolution thingies of Ra's and then Robotica invades and completly demolishes civilization in a short amount of time (i swear they use the EXACT same lines in the blight storyline). After Robotica hit Earth I stopped caring, I know comics recycle stories but that was a bit too quick for me. Also, I never liked how Robotica never had to take responsibility for its actions. There were some nice character moments, but another problem I had was I don't think they were too good at writing a team. It seems that in most of their stories (Robotica and Foundations esp) only two or three people save the day and the other team members could have done nothing and the outcome would have been the same.

Legion Lost was just pure awesome (from what I've read) and the interactions of the characters were great, but once the team was reunited I got the feeling that DnA didn't know what to do with so many members and so many powers.

That's it for now, I will have to chew on everything that has been said about the 5YL Legion as some great points were made and wonderful thoughts shared.

PS238 is a wonderful comic by Aaron Williams about a grade school for Metahuman Prodigies. (There are fourth grade equivalents of the children of Hulk, Green Lantern, The Fly, Plastic Man, etc. for example.) But one of the focus characters is a little girl named Susie who's upset because she's the 84th person with the standard superpower set -- flight, invulnerability, super-strength. They're so *generic*, and never get the recognition or appreciation that more unique powers engender.

This sums up my feelings about DnA, as well.

It's hard to remember specifics at this point, but the fact that so little about their run stands out to me after only four years or so is telling. DnA seemed obsessed with writing the BIG STORY: The Blight, Widening Rifts, LOST, Robotica, ad nauseum. In this sense, they were a lot like Levitz in constantly trying to outdo themselves. Unlike Levitz, they didn't have the love of the characters and knowledge of Legion lore to fall back on (or maybe they had less of the latter to work with).

After Robotica, I remember that stories seemed very padded in an attempt to make them ready for trade editions. Stories that should have taken two or three issues to tell took four or six. To me, this diluted the impact of Dream Crime, for one.

DnA also managed to tell a Darkseid story and make it forgettable! How talented is that?

DnA did have good points. In some ways, they deconstructed the Legion much as TMK did to show the human side of heroes and the sacrifices they make. For this reason, LOST stands out to me as their crowning achievement.

DnA started to falter especially with the Fatal Five/Timberwolf two-parter IMO. Dream Crime I found to be extremely boring and a typical Universo-rehash, which we've already seen done to death, starting with the first major Universo-rehash, the Universo Project, which was also very boring. By Foundations, it was just unbearably awful, although I did like the first part where we meet the Academy, etc.

Still...DnA never reached 'terrible' territory, and now via knowledge through Batista, we can see just how much editorial interference there really was.

Overall, DnA suffered from what HWW mentions. Even in their other non-Legion work, including comics they do that I generally like (i.e. Nova), their writing flaws can still be widely seen. They have trouble writing themselves out of holes and giving endings to stories that are satisfying. They also are sometimes too plot-centric and not charater-centric enough.

They didn't have one of the best runs in Legion history, but I can say in all honestly that for a brief period they made me really enthusiastic about the reboot again when I thought I'd all but given up hope. And I didn't really think they hit their stride until the finale of Legion Lost, Legion Worlds and the first twelve issues of the Legion series.

Ah, DnA. I really did like most of their run, though it lost steam for me as time went on.

As I believe Steph stated, it did become redundant, each arc trying to outdo the takeover threat of the last. I adored Legion Lost, Damned, and even the initial team rebuilding. But the further we get from it, the more I realize the Robotica arc really wasn't that good (I did love the JLA vs Legion on War World though). Like Cobie said, arcs afterward seemed like rehashing.

I always felt overwhelmed by Legion World. It didn't feel like the team had a true base with so many delegates and SPs running around. We rarely got to see the team take action against a threat that wasn't connected to Earth, Legion World, or the Kwai galaxy.

My complaints about Foundations are the same as everyone else's. It was just trying to reboot the GDS, which wasn't necessary. I'm not big on Superpeople being forced into the team either, especially when we're not even talking the originals with actual connections. I wasn't a fan of Kon even before his inclusion. He really had no point to being in the book other than a sales boost. No prophecy to fulfill, no personal changes to be made to that character, etc. Cos not being Kon's biggest fan is leftover from the early postboot, but I agree it wasn't handled well.

I still appreciate DnA's run, and I adored their first two-three years on the title. The last year or two, which most of my negative comments are geared toward, left me underwhelmed after getting excited again for the first time in years for the title.

After I posted that bit, I realized it sounded a little edgy, Chuck. Maybe it was a residual reaction to the "5YC" thing? But mostly I wanted to see whether you counted Laurel among the 'mutilations' because she was a replacement for Kara's spot in Legion history, at least. I'm glad you don't feel that way about her, actually!

I really do miss me some Laurel Gand, by the way. Not 'Andromeda', but Laurel Gand. Despite SW6 and the reboot versions, I feel we haven't really seen the Laurel I absolutely adored since McGraw & company murdered her in the finale of LOTR. She was bad-ass in a way all those wannabe bad-ass alpha fems in comics only wish they could be. Sadly, with this latest awful Supergirl version we still have running around the DCU, we may never see my Laurel ever again.

Excellent point. Kent's wit, thoughtful nature and passion for medicine definitely distinguish him from Supes. Laurel's warrior mentality distinguished her from those Kryptonians, too.

And as for DnA being mistaken for "redoing GDS", I feel compelled to point out that at least on message boards, there had been somewhat of a clamor for the reboot to attempt its own version of the Legion battling Darkseid. Routinely, certain preboot classic stories were brought up and discussed as to whether there should be a reboot retelling of that story, and GDS was way up there.

I'm not saying anyone else posting here wanted that, but I'll admit I was one of those proponents. And when I first heard Darkseid was going to be involved in "Foundations", I was pretty damned excited. Obviously, when it came out, I ended up being rather underwhelmed, but I can't say that I and many other fans didn't get what we wished for. Just proof of the old adage, I suppose!

That's been one of the more eye-opening things about the 5YL portion of this thread, as I said before--people on opposite sides of this particular jagged fence understanding why the other side felt like they did and respecting their reasons!

I've been a MB poster for about a decade, and I've never, EVER seen this much mutual respect for a differing opinion during a 5YL discussion!

Absolutely heartwarming!

I think this kinda sums up the DnA criticsm among the responses. I dunno, the BIG STORY is kinda what got DnA (and the reboot Legion itself when it had been floundering) noticed in the first place, so I guess they felt obligated to keep that vibe going. For me pretty much everything thru Dream Crime was absolute money and didn't derail until "Foundations".

I'll just bet if DnA had focussed on smaller stories primarily when the ongoing arrived, fans would've been having the opposite problem with them: "Where's the next epic, guys?"

I think they're approach was: "we've got this over-the-top super-hero group with a zillion members, so let's tell stories that are as big as they are!" And I really appreciated that approach.

And they could do character-centric stories, too. Each issue of Legion Lost was told from a different character's point of view. And the stories in Worlds were smaller and focussing on a handful of characters at a time. And I thought both series were fantastic.

Yes, I do feel things got a bit unruly for DnA when they got all the characters in the ongoing. All their previous stories found ways to focus on smaller groups one way or another. They returned to that with Dream Crime, I feel, and I really enjoyed that story for it.

"Foundations" moved away from that and in hindsight, it absolutely was editorially driven. Kon was already a Teen Titan, so it made little-to-no sense to force him into the Legion. So I believe this kind of editorial interference is at the 'foundation' [natch!] of why DnA started to falter. I'm still angry that they weren't even allowed to tie up all their loose ends before being cut loose, after all DNA had done to revive the Legion from oblivion!

I can certainly see how they might think that way, but there's a difference between "large" and "over the top." "Over the top" is having an entire artificial planet as your headquarters -- a move that I think was ill thought out. (NEXUS did a much better job of exploring the possibilities of a hero who has his own world -- or moon, in this case -- and the political situations that spring up when others come to live there.)

I thought LOST was more successful than WORLDS because of the urgency and desperation of being so far from home. WORLDS had its moments, but most of the stories lacked that sense of urgency or any real importance. Mostly, it was just a setup for what DnA would do in the regular series, and, even then, some of the plot lines seemed to have been abandoned or delayed beyond the point of my interest (e.g., Mekt's involvement).

I did like the Tinya/Brin issue, though.

I've only read them once (when they came out), but remember really loving the Mon-El issue (#1), the Ayla/Mekt issue and the Ferro/Val issue. I'd probably have to reread, but I recall being pleased with the different pace that each one of the six issues had.

Weirdly enough, the Cos/Vi/Chuck issue was 'okay', though I really appreciated the Dyrk Magz focus.

I can say that by Legion #6 or so, when Ayla had rejoined and Gates had been found, I felt like yelling "alright, here we go!" and it was good to feel that way about a current Legion comic. I certainly have not felt that way since (and that was in the year 2001-02).

I miss *that* feeling. Like I've got something to cheer for.

That's pretty much how I feel. And Foundations - they didn't even try to hide that this had been forced on them. I mean, they spent over half of #25 setting up plots that they were then forced to drop (the Cadets & Mekt, not to mention the ongoing D-Storm subplot).

What strikes me is that I don't think they ever had any intention of using Darkseid after Dream Crime. Universo explicitly says (paraphrased) "I made that up to throw Dreamer off my scent - I couldn't stop her seeing that *something* was wrong, so I made her see that old codger." But Wacker developed what I call "Lizard Syndrome"* and demanded that the next arc focus on Darkseid, as well as the Superboy nonsense (I wonder if that was hurredly retrofitted from a Valor arc concept, since DnA had made noises about that in Legion Worlds #1 - and I also wonder, since they were so clear about it being Braal threatened by the D-Storm in TL25, if they were planning to have Cos follow up on filling Magno in and having something happen there).

And, of course, not letting them have the *three issues* they asked for was a crime. Doubly so since we got For No Better Reason (such a well-named arc...) instead.


*Re: "Lizard Syndrome":

Just as a side note, Tony, this discussion gave me the push needed to fill in my collection and get the 5YL issues I was missing.

They'll arrive with my next regular monthly shipment, at which point I intend to read/re-read V4 1 - 60 and see how I react to them now.

I doubt I'll feel much different, but you never know...

That's nice to hear, Chuck, though I doubt you'll truly feel much differently. The only x-factor here for you is time.

What issues did you already have, Chuck? Did you have to buy a lot?

And while we're still on 5YL, I'd like to mention one of my most favorite aspects of it: how TMK made me like several Legionnaires I wasn't particularly fond of previously.

Really, from a fave Legionnaires standpoint this series should've been a complete disaster for me. At the time the volume began, I was all about Wildfire, Sensor Girl, Timber Wolf, Dawnstar, Dream Girl Polar Boy and Lightning Lad (essentially, some of the biggest stars of the Levitz era) among others. But these characters either rarely appeared during the bulk of the TMK storyline or else were severely altered from what they had been--or both!

Instead we got primarily a core group of Rokk, Cham, Jo, Brainy, Jan, Mysa, Ayla, Vi and Tenzil (combined with several newcomers like Laurel, Kent and Kono). None of these characters were even in my top ten Legionnaires at the time! And of all the guys to include--Matter-Eater Lad?!!? Say what?!? If I'd known this lineup going in, I honestly might not even have picked it up!

But it worked, dammit! I came to care for all these previously non-essential characters more than I ever dreamed possible! Matter-Eater Lad? Hell Yeah!

Let's take Jo, for example. Pre-5YL--yay, another Legionnaire with the Kryptonian powerset, only this guy can only use one at a time! And his personality? Kinda your average jock-type, homecoming king and all. Had a homecoming queen-type steady GF. *yawn* Wow, he really stood out...not. 5YL Man, suddenly the homecoming king is in a street gang and doing some really questionable stuff! Wow, this Rimbor homecoming king came from is like a big slum--he grew up here and somehow managed to rise above it to be a Legionnaire, but now he's back. He lost his homecoming queen and with her, his moral compass. And the pain of her loss just drips from him even after several years. Now, he's got more of a Han Solo-vibe, and it works for him! Much more interesting than that homecoming king!

I could go down the list and tell you something TMK did with each core character that made me love them and appreciate them like I never had before. And I think that, more than anything, is why I love 5YL so much and possibly plays a role as to why I love the Legion itself the way I do to this day.