Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Okay, I'm not using Roman Numerals because I have a hard enough time keeping things straight as it is.

I have a lot of the "dark era" because it is cheap. Some of it is dreck (the monster under the sewers, ugh) some of it is good (Darkman through space pirates and Reflecto, which wasn't that great but had some good twists even if the ending was a bit pat and Grimbor's chains were such a stupid idea).

That said, low point for me is the 5YL Legion, as I do not even associate it with the original Leigon in my mind. So if I don't include that then I say the end of Levitz's run is the lowpoint for me, as you can see the Legion begining to fall apart, something that, even though Conways' plots were bland and unispired, you did not see the Legion do under his pen.

To me most of those Legion stories (post-Earth War pre-Levitz II) are stagnation, nothing really added to the mythos but nothing really taen away, they are just bland and uninteresting.

To me end of Levitz-5YL are the actual destruction of the Leigon, with no way for a good writer to go back and restore things.

Like I said, I really don't like the 5YL Legion so my views might seem a bit harsh to fans of the era, but that is simply how I feel.

I actually did like the first part of 5YL, a lot, but I know what you're talking about.

I swear, though, a good writer could have fixed it up. There was no need for 'End of an Era'. It totally could have been fixed.

Sounds like another potential spin-off topic!

Actually, I've had a topic similar to that before. One theory is that both Legions (adult and young) should've been merged into one (leaving no duplicates) somehow, or the older version could have left as the new Omega Men as was apparently being considered, leaving the Legionnaires as THE Legion.

Actually, what I would have done is this...

As v.4 approached #63, I'd have wrapped up loose ends and unveiled a time-disruption story (nothing so over the top as ZH or that Mordru/Glorith bit).

At the end of v.4 #63, Kent, Kono, and any other 1990s characters worth continuing would go back in time, and arrive at the end of the Magic Wars.

v.4 #64 would have picked up thereafter, being a sort of combo v.3 and v.4 #64, with the future members out to prevent the entire collapse/Dominion takeover.

A villain or two could also have traveled back to try to thwart them, while they attempt to prove to the Levitz Legion who they really are (some doubt by the Levitz Legion would make it interesting).

Kent, that's actually, the best idea I've heard yet about how to fix everything without rebooting! Bravo!

Yes, it would've been a kind of reboot in its own way, but 5YL still would have "happened", you know, and we'd still have those displaced members with the LSH to give the era some permanence.

One wrinkle I'd add is that the lineup from the end of Magic Wars would now include Laurel because she was "always" part of the team! So even though Laurel died in the future, she's still alive.

I'd have this "fix the future" storyline last about a year, maybe? And then, a new beginning where some of the Legionnaires retire and most of the 5YG characters stay with the group. Brave New World, anyone?

I don't mean to split hairs, but this isn't quite what I meant. To me, "worst" is different from "most forgettable."

For me, the worst period in Legion history was the early 5YL period (early Era X, by our breakdown). This was the era in which Giffen took the Legion's optimistic future, gutted it, and tried to tell his own version of WATCHMEN. On top of that, DC gutted the Legion again by throwing out all references to Superboy and redacting the Legion's history accordingly. The realization that the Legion I read about was no longer the "real" or accepted LSH prompted me to drop the series for the first time after 17 years.

Years later, I warmed up to 5YL and its adult versions of the Legionnaires, but I'm still not happy about the redaction of Legion history, even though it resulted in interesting additions such as Laurel and Kent. You might say that early Era X is memorable to me, but not in a good way.

And, congratulations, Lardy, on Page 8!

Yay! I feel loved!

Yes, I can see the difference between "worst" and "most forgettable" from that perspective. Though, for me, they are both synonomous as they pertain to the Legion.

So to take this further, HWW, would you say that even though 5YL was bad for the reasons you cite, that the 5YL era should be checked out by anyone who wants to bone up on Legion history because it's a significant era by the "unforgettable" standard?

An example of this might be, say, a longtime Legion fan who left during Conway's run and is now curious with the 50th anniversary about what he had missed. I'd wager you'd recommend the long Levitz run. But would you recommend he check out 5YL on the basis that a lot of significant things happened and that there was an "ending" to that LSH's story?

And if another fan followed Cockrum to the X-Men, leaving the Legion behind and never looking back 'til the 50th, would you advise her to check out the era this topic is about (our VII) or skip to Levitz?

(Note: this isn't entirely hypothetical, if you think about it, as some lapsed fans may approach the Legion World table at San Diego with these kinds of questions, and they could easily buy scads of the comics in question at the dealer tables on LWers' recommendations!)

Anyone here have a take on what I think was a brilliant "fix" by Kent for the 5YL story at the end of its run that would've been an alternative to rebooting (as well as my addendum)?

Well, I would first try to find out what such a fan liked about the Legion in the first place so I could base my recommendations accordingly.

Fans who believe the Legion should be eternal teenagers would probably not care for 5YL (except maybe the LEGIONNAIRES spin-off). Likewise, those who are tied to the 1950s-style simplicity of the ADVENTURE era should probably pass it by.

On the other hand, those who are not tied to the chronology (as I was) or who like somewhat riskier stories (as I do) might appreciate 5YL.

The above scenarios generalize, of course, but I wouldn't want to make a blanket recommendation of "essential" LSH eras based solely on my own notions. If this board has taught me anything, it's that every era is someone's favorite and every era is equally deemed forgettable by some.

Re: Kent's idea.

I like it, but it leaves me wondering if the timeline would "start over" from the Magic Wars, with Kent and Laurel being stranded in the past, or if at some point they (and we) would return to their "present."

I must, however, take exception with the premise of this scenario, which began with steph asserting (and Matthew echoing) that 5YL represented the destruction of the Legion "with no way for a good writer to go back and restore things."

Steph does not support this statement, so I'm not sure in what way 5YL represented the destruction of the Legion to her. Certainly the era began with the Legion having disbanded and being regarded as failures as heroes. But, had Giffen been allowed to tell the story he wanted to tell (according to his interview in LEGION COMPANION), 5YL would have ended with the Legion fully restored and becoming even greater heroes. I'm all for that. Heroes become heroes through facing adversity, and Giffen deserves credit for giving the Legion the greatest challenges they had ever faced.

But other forces intervened with Giffen's masterstroke. As I mentioned above, one of those forces was DC's meddling in order to "fix" the Superboy conundrum. Other meddling occurred after Giffen left, when DC removed Tom & Mary Bierbaum from the book. In doing so, the company excised the final standardbearers of Giffen's vision (not to mention two of the best dialogue writers LSH ever had). These creative changes may have led to what steph describes as the Legion's destruction.

In either case, however, I would have preferred to see the Legion go forward instead of backward. I liked the older Legion whose members had families, a shared history, and younger proteges (such as Devlin O'Ryan) to train. This is what the Legion should be about, to me -- not endlessly going back to "fix" the past, which is what we've had ever since 5YL ended.

I would leave Kent and Kono "stranded" in 2989; the timeline they came from would no longer exist for them to return to.

My take on Laurel was that of Lardy's; she was not a time-traveller with Kent (she was already dead) but rather a ret-conned member of the prior team (DC policy in 1994 was still a Legion history without Supergirl).

I saw 5YL as the Legion overcoming their most serious setback - all through 1958-1989, they almost always had government backing, adequate funds/resources and public support; taking away some/most of that, bouncing back from forced disintegration, was a fresh challenge this Legion overcame. The only way to "top" GDS was to find a more intrinsic challenge; you can't keep out-Darkseiding Darkseid.

I also liked the older L:egion with families, and would rather have seen an alternate course after the end of Terra Mosaic. As beautifually handled as the destruction of Earth was, it closed too many doors... and post-TMK, it truly did fall part, depsite Immomen's wonderous art.

My #64 approach was based on the assumption that the "fix" would be devised and implemented at the end of the line as an alt to a reboot - and to try to reach out to Levitz-era fans abandoned by 5YL.

I too generally favor going forward.

Had Earth not been blown up, had LOTR not been concocted, I could see an older Legion focusing on apprentices and family and the socio-political complexity that made that era glorious, leaving the out-and-out superheroics to SW6.

I also loved 5YL and see absolutely no reason why it couldn't have gone forward after end of an era without having to reboot. More than anything a gradual change in style and tone could have worked wonders on getting that across as plot and character arcs evolved.

I also like 'forward moving' approaches to the Legion. If the preboot continued on after End of an Era, introducing some new concepts/antagonists/characters would have been the way to go. I do not like retreading of old ground, which despite my liking specific aspects of the Reboot, 3boot and John's Legion (some more than others), there is a lot of that there.

That all said, I think Kent has a brillant idea that I would have also found shockingly great and would have loved.

Also:
Great, great analysis. You put into words something I've only really ever 'sensed'.

I like Kent's suggestion as it makes sense to me. Not having read many 5YL stories I don't know how the 'fix' would have appealed to fans of that era.

As for why I think the 5YL gap lead to the destruction of the Legion, I'll provide a more in depth response soon, but bascially I did not see the future as optomistic (as I think a Legion future should be) but also the Legion quits, and the Legion should never quit.

Now correct me if I'm wrong (because I could be and then I would feel like a big idiot) but the Leigon gives up and disbands somewhere between Magic Wars and the start of volume 4 (or whatever it is). It's called the Black Dawn or something.

To me the Legion would never quit, they have been through too much and have lost too many to simply ignore their sacrifices and go home. So much of what occurs in the 5YL Legion (that I've read which is VERY little) seems to steam from the fact that the Legion disbanded and I just don't see the Legion disbanding. These are the ones who faced Darkseid, Mordru and a thousand other threats, Long Live the Legion is their battle cry. I just can't equate THAT Legion with a Legion who would give up, regardless of it they have money, government support or public adoration.

I would love to see the Legion grow naturally, I find the idea of Khund Legionnaires simply awesome, get rid of the member limit rule, let the Legion really expand into the galaxy, have members (the older members) drift in and out as they feel (do they spend time with family or with Legion) but NEVER have the Legion quit, never let them forget what they stand for and their brave friends who have died doing what is right.

Again, maybe somewhere along the way I was misinformed and the Legion never disbanded and the Legionnaires never simply went home in defeat, and if that is the case please let me know what happened and maybe I can look at the 5YL Legion with different eyes, but to me it will always be tainted with giving up and giving in and that dramatically changes who the Legion is.

It's fine if they come back from really bad times (as all heroes do) but it is hard to care as much if they gave up to begin with. Quick tangent, I'll never look at Peter Parker the same again, they can tell great stories about him, but to the taint of his decision in OMD will always be with him and I have a hard time caring as much/or respecting a character who would rather be tied to his mother figure's apron strings than grow up and be a man. The Legion having quit presents a similar taint.

Which is why I think Kent's fix would work, in that the new characters could and stop that taint from entering into the Legion AND you could still get to see the Legion grow and expand.

The disintigration/disbanding of the Legion did occur off-camera, due to secret pressures of Earthgov/the Dominators, the economic collapse of the UP, the Braal/Imsk war, and other factors. Not just Black Dawn.

While it would be easy to find a way to keep a Legion around regardless, I was impressed with the risk, shaking up the entire formula, to show a stronger family that could overcome all obstacles.

To me, the disbanding made sense; aver Conspiracy (v3 46-50), there really was a sense that some Legionnaires were moving on; it really felt like the old gang was fraying at the edges. Rokk and Garth were retired, Brainy, Mysa, Thom, Nura Blok and Shady were off doing their own things, Mon was dying, Kal was dead, Quis was gone, Lu lost another body... it just seemed that despite all the Legion's victories and accomplishments, so many of the core group were moving on.

That happens in real life. Those who were members since the Silver Age had essentially served the team for 16 years of their lives, from early-mid-teens to 30ish. It's rare that anyone in life commits to something that age and remains committed for so long; the urge to do other things, to have families, or to go "solo" and prove oneself without longtime peers creeps in.

16 years ofd service is hardly quitting; many of those who had been anchors of the Legion had new responsibilities. Some ran planets, others ran families and/or businesses. Some continued the Legion traditions as best they could - serving in the SPs or related fields. Yet as 5YL showed, no matter what happened, when the call went out they were still Legionnaires, even without official sanction or a HQ.

Steph,

You are essentially right in your perception--the Legion did disband at some point during the 5YG. However, it didn't even happen immediately after Black Dawn, but it was one of the proverbial straws that broke the camel's back, along with Magic Wars itself.

And I do feel what you were saying about the Legion we knew and how their disbanding should never happen. As you say, they'd never give up.

However, how many of us are ever just as passionate about a cause that we were passionate about as teenagers by the time we "grow up" and hit 30 or whatever? Teenagers are an odd lot...often they either seemingly care about nothing other than themselves, or they can be more passionate believers in whatever cause comes along than just about any adult ever could.

Many of us get worn down by life to some degree as we age, but when we are young in high school and college, that hasn't happened yet. How many protests have been historically organized by college campus organizations? Are they the only ones who do this? Heck, no! Are they more likely to either be started by or at least strongly supported by this demographic? Heck, yeah!

So imagine being a teenage superhero and channeling all that young passion into saving the world! Sure, it would keep them fired up for a long, long time...but what happens when they start to settle down, marry, have kids? Would they still be able to sustain that passion? And what if the world changes around them, so much so that the enemy is no longer super villains so much as people in suits, alien powers, governments or whatever? How do you punch beauracracy in the face?

Sure, along the way you recruit younger people to be your successors, so you can move on with the rest of your life--but will they have enough inside of them as the next generation to maintain and build upon what you started? Is it always a sure thing that a son will carry on the family business successfully? Sometimes, yes...sometimes no.

This is why the concept of 5YL, that the Legion disbanded in the interim, works for me. That's why it's one of my favorite eras, despite some of its fault. The Legion grew up, and it wasn't exactly pretty. But it felt real. And it felt that much better that they fought back, reunited and overcame their failures.

Wow! While I was thinking about and composing my last response, Kent posted and echoed the main thrust of my post in the meantime! Great minds yadda-yadda, huh?

But, regardless of that point, that doesn't mean everyone had to like 5YL (as if everyone would!)for that reason, though I think it justifies the core concept behind it. 5YL was stylistically and thematically so much different from traditional Legion (or even, generally, from that of standard superhero comic books) storytelling and some of the twists to out of left field (Sean/Shvaugn & Proty/Garth) that I can understand why it wasn't many peoples' cup of tea.

I'm glad the story was told, though, contoversies and all. And I often find myself missing the friends I made during that time, instead having to satisfy myself with younger, oddly both familiar and unfamiliar, versions of those friends--or in some cases friends never really seen since (ironically, Kent Shakespeare among them).

I agree. Take away the funding and support of the UP and the Legion would have found itself cast out into the world like children without an allowance.

I think of 5YL as the Legion growing up and discovering that life is harder and much more different than they thought it would be. Suddenly, they were no longer the universally loved superstars they had once been. In order to adjust to that reality, they had to reassess who they were and what they stood for. This occurred through disbanding and questioning whether or not a Legion was still needed.

You and Lardy offer eloquent explanations for the other factors that led to disbandment: The older members grew up and had other responsibilities and callings. And, as Lardy notes, sometimes hand-picked successors don't live up to their potential. History is full of great kings whose mediocre heirs couldn't keep the kingdom together.

Yet steph also has a valid point. Giffen never really set up or explained the disbandment very well. It happened off-camera and we were given only a smattering of details: It seems that many long-time members left in rapid succession, essentially abandoning ship. If I recall correctly, Sensor Girl quit while she was still leader! I don't remember being given an adequate explanation for this. It would be very unlike the regal Projectra to do so.

This, unfortunately, is what Levitz kept trying to do through the LSV War, the Time Trapper, and the Magic Wars. I believe this is the principle reason why the quality of his writing declined in v. 3: He had only one great story to tell, and he kept re-telling it.

And back to "fixing" 5YL after End of an Era--I'm one of those who has argued in the past that we were left with no choice but to reboot in some way at that point, mainly for the reasons that HWW alluded to: things were taken too far. No Earth, 2 Legions, tragedy beyond compare...how do you follow that and still keep readers interested?

Would it have been impossible to move on? No, but by the end, readership had deteriorated so much that I'm not sure moving forward with the cards the Legion had been dealt would've attracted enough interest to get even another ten issues. Maybe focussing on the SW6 Legionnaires with the older members as mentors would've worked, maybe it wouldn't have. Maybe it would've just alienated half the feeble readership that had remained.

And let's not forget that all of this happened during the time the comics industry crashed in a big way. Better to move forward with a concept that had been played out or try to start afresh? We know which way DC decided to go with it. DC felt this was the Legion's best chance, I'd guess. Hell, few would've blamed DC if they stopped publishing the title altogether given the economics of the time.

So I said, and still say, that a reboot of some kind was probably required at that point. But Kent's idea (a softer reboot) is the best one I've seen that could've satisfied old and new readers without totally starting over, without jetisonning everything as DC ultimately decided. Kinda makes me wish Kent was a big dog in the DC brass at the time!

(Note: I actually did enjoy most of the reboot, start to finish, despite these posts. But in retrospect, especially with the reboot itself being rebooted ultimately, fantasizing about what could have been at that crucial juncture becomes more and more appealing!)

By the way, I'm LOVING this topic!!!!!!

And I'm not going to continue to spin it off, despite how it drifted because I don't want to dilute this energy any time soon!

BUT--does anyone think I should edit the title to more accurately reflect what it's morphed into in case more posters want to jump in? And, if so, any suggestions about what I should change the title to?

Thoughts on why or why not to change, plus suggestions on what to change it to if in favor, are more than welcome!

Actually, it was Kent who alluded to those things.

I actually liked (if that's the appropriate word) the destruction of earth -- it was a bold move that no one would have seen coming and it was delivered with poignancy and grandeur. I also do not think it signalled the death blow to the Legion itself: They could always have found another world, named it Earth II ( ), and continued on as before. "Legion On the Run" was far more damaging than the destruction of earth, I thought.

I think the title could stand modification to show the drift we've taken.

How about: Lardy's Lounge: Now discussing 5YL
That way, if the topic drifts again, it can be updated, while keeping the Lardy's Lounge "brand name," letting people know it is a continuation throughout future name changes.

I too did enjoy enough of the Reboot. I can enjoy basicalyl anu version of the Legion to at least some degree, even Waid Threeboot and even Conway.

I can also respect those who consider 5YL to be beyond their scope of what Legion is to them. Steph does raise good points; I spent so much effort replying that I forgot to recognize that. Thanks, HWW.

Lardy, I sometimes daydream about what I would have done with various characters/books had I been in control at various points. LSH 259 is usually the one I think on the most.

HWW-
LOTR was definitely more damaging, and the destruction of Earth was extremely well told (much better than I expected, knowing it was coming from filling in back issues peicemeal).

But for a post-Earth storyline to really run solidly, it needs to be extreemly well thought out and well executed; well-established home turf in an ongoing series offers an inherent stability and familiarity.

For example, ST:Voyager. An interesting premise and a decent cast, but without a well-thought out, well-executed plan, it stumbled along rather lacklusterly. Without the stability of known UFP space, the creators kept introducing other beings/concepts that somehow also drifted into a distant quadrant; also, numerous 'new' races they encountered were scantly different from what they knew at home.

To continue 5YL without Earth was possible, certainly. It would have taken as much attention to socio-political detail as the earlier run had, at a time when DC was itching to push it closer to more standard/traditional formatting.

(sorry for the confusion when I "quoted" you, HWW--I need to fact-check better! )

Just to clarify, guys, I never said that I disapproved of the story of Earth's destruction--indeed I remember welling up a little, it was so well-done. But in hindsight, doing so did alter the LSH concept drastically as it had always been Earth-centric and could make the LSH less relatable to readers.

That said, New Earth had potential; I'm just not so sure that potential was limitless. I'm sure the plan was to eventually find a new planet for all those domes. And that could've been interesting indeed.

But pursuing that storyline could've put the Legion more squarely in the sci-fi category and less in the superhero category. The Legion had always straddled both concepts but was still more a superhero book all in all.

Could the Legion have survived indefinitely as more of a sci-fi book. I'm thinking not, as DnA explored that side (though not as extremely in a way) years later, and their run eventually ran out of steam.

And, yes, had the quality not dipped down during LOTR, we may not have ever heard of a reboot. But we'll never know for sure, will we?

Kent, I went with your suggestion but decided on "Lardy's Roundtable" because I thought that was more reflective of the tone here. Hopefully, it'll work!