Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

I didn't explicitly say so in my post but I love the Action issues too. Its my favorite archive besides #1 & #2. Probably because it has that transition feel to it in tone.

I enjoyed some of the character stories in the ACTION run, particularly the Violet/Tenz "date" and Brin's drug addiction. Those were both cutting edge stories for the time; alas, they were the exception. Where the ACTION run failed, in my opinion, was in trying to do traditional super-hero stories with villains. There just wasn't enough space to develop those stories and characters.

Lardy, I think the ACTION run has even less in common with the Bates/Cockrum/Grell period than it does with the ADVENTURE issues. Bates, et.al., re-defined and re-energized the Legion after the series had spent the previous few years treading water.

I guess I just don't like there to be like a zillion mini-eras, I guess, especially when the Legion went through a long period without a consistent writer between Bates and when Levitz returned with Giff. The only large body of work done by one writer was Conway, and it certainly wasn't particularly well-written from what I've read and what I'd expect given his track record.

How many eras would you name starting with the Legion's earliest appearances up until the beginning of Levitz's return in the 280s?

I think it's worth quoting Theodore Sturgeon here. When some said to him: "Why do you write science fiction? 90% of it is crap," Sturgeon replied, "90% of everything is crap." There were truly forgetable Legion stories between Earth War and Great Darkness, but that has ever been so. You also had Omega/Crazy Brainy, The League of Super Assassins and the Dark Man, Brainy's recovery, Superboy's tearful departure, and space pirates (Arrrr...sprock). Any run that included in it a super hero named Matter Eater Lad coming out of retirement to eat an all-powerful device called the Miracle Machine in order to defeat an unstoppable creature created by a crazy super-genius, and going cosmic crazy in the process, THAT'S GREAT COMICS, MAN!

I'll have to give that question some thought, Lardy.

One of the problems, as I suggested earlier, is that "era" can be defined in different ways. Dictionary.com , for example, lists six different meanings for the word; the first five meanings can all apply to the Legion. The number of eras and dividing points for those eras could therefore vary depending on which definition one prefers.

How do you define "era," Lardy?

{EDIT: Lardy here in an Alt-ID, by the way! }

I would say (without looking it up) for comics I'd define it as a significant period in a long-running comic character or group's history that differs significantly from what came before or after it, often because of a creative, stylistic, structural or storytelling change.

With the Legion, for example, I'd begin with the Early Adventure era and start the second era around when Shooter came on. I'd separate it because Shooter helped the Legion begin to evolve by telling more sophisticated stories and bringing out some of the concept's potential to the next level. I'd call it the Late Adventure/Shooter Era.

Beyond that I'm not entirely sure how I'd break it down between Late Adventure/Shooter and Levitz/ Giffen because I'm not overly knowledgeable about that era. But I might break it into either two or, likely, three eras if pressed with the latter comprising all or most of the era discussed in this thread.

It's not an exact science, but I tend not to make an era too short unless it was that significant on its own.

I don't really consider all that run between EarthWar and GDS as one era...

I think Conway era stands alone as the alltime low point in all of Legion history.


When Conway was writing the book IIRC, he was writing about 5-6 other monthly titles on top of the Legion including the JLA. He was burnt out from years of prolific writing at both companies, he was overtaxed, he wasn't really into the Legion, and all of these things showed in his work.

He created some decent characters and wrote a couple of passable arcs but basically much of it was just trash being thrown on paper churned out in the greatest volume possible to collect a paycheck.

I would not insult the creators that worked with him, nor the writers that immediately preceded or followed him by lumping their work with his...the underwhelming impact of his run does actually have a tangible negative impact on their work, and that's a pretty amazing achivement if you think about it.

I pretty much break eras down by writer as they tend to have the most impact on the focus of the book. Sometimes they can be paired with an artist, especially if the artist was a co-plotter as Giffen was...but basically I go by the writer.


I don't really consider the Early Adventure Era as all one era...Binder's stuff was pretty horrible and Edmund Hamilton and Jerry Siegel OTOH are vastly under-rated, particularly in the area of character creation. They created most of the characters we all love to this day.

LardLad...

The 5YG is a hundred times better than Conway's run...


It's kinda like TMK were given a car with a blown engine and only 3 tires and asked to win the Indy 500 with it. They poured their hearts into winning that race...but they were not given a car capable of winning it.


Gerry Conway OTOH was given a cutting edge high performance vehicle with a well tuned engine and 4 excellent tires in perfect condition...and not only did he not run a competitive race, he barely got the car started.


Any writer that has written the book in the past 20 years, had they been given the Legion at the point Conway got it, would have turned in what would probably be considered all time classic Legion stuff compared to what Conway put out....just based effort and caring about the book.


His Legion run was a total clock punching hackjob...

It really isn't fair that he got the book at that point in time while most of the creators that have truly loved this book, which is most of them over the past 20 years, have been given the book under backbreaking editorial constraints and corporate mandates.

Read the Dr. Maylava (or whatever) story last night, it wasn't till I read this thread that I realized what I had (I have heard it referenced but it never clicked). It seems that I have all the bad and none of the 'good' from this era. I do have the Darkman saga (also read last night, enjoyable) but only the very end of Reflecto and none of the Super Assasins. Just my luck, you know.

Some of this is painful, but like I said, the Darkman is a pretty solid tale (even if some of the dialouge is cringe-worthy) and it is always cool to see the Fatal Five. Plus I thought Light Lass turning the gravity off on the entire ship was really cool, as I have never seen her use her powers on something that big until WaK (of course there are MASSIVE holes in my collection).

Of course, being someone who has come late to the show, original legion is original Legion to me so I'm happy to have what I can get and enjoy anything that is a pretty decent read and doesn't dump on the characters.

However, as good as the Legion was (supposedly, as I only have a few issues prior to this period) before this I could see why fans reading it in chornological order or as it came out would be HORRIFIED by the quality level of this 'era.'

I don't think this is anyone's favorite era, but that doesn't mean there aren't some diamonds in the rough, just don't pay too much for it or you will hate yourself later.

Hey, I loved 5YG--I just used it to compare with the era in question because it is probably easily the most polarizing era of the preboot Legion and thought it a likely contender for least favorite preboot era vs. the other for that reason. Personally, Levitz's entire run spanning 286ish thru all of V3 is probably tied for my absolute favorite with 5YG.

I guess you could call Conway's stuff the "Conway era", but to me the whole run we're discussing seemed like filler (with the exceptions of a few good-to-passable stories) between one good era and a great one.

And you are quite right, if someone passionate about the Legion (read: not Conway) got the job, there was no limit to the what could've been done during those years--probably the equivalent of what Claremont did with the X-Men! It could've dwarfed what Levitz eventually did, especially considering the crushing constraints Levitz more and more had to be bound by. Guess we'll never know...

That sounds fair.


Going by your definition, then, we have the following eras:

I. Pre-series (1958-62) [which should be included, I feel]

II. Early Adventure (Siegel and Hamilton): ADV. 300-345

III. Late Adventure (Shooter I): ADV. 346-380

IV. Backup Series Purgatory: ACTION # 377-387, 389-392, and SUPERBOY # 172-195 (sporadic appearances in the latter)

V. Superboy starring the Legion Rebirth (Bates/Cockrum/Grell/Shooter II): SUP 197-224

VI. Superboy and the Legion Growing Pains (Levitz I/Sherman/et. al.): SUP/LSH v. 2 # 225-251

VII. LSH Doldrums (Conway/Staton/Thomas/et.al): LSH 252- 283

VIII. LSH Second Rebirth (Levitz II/Broderick/Giffen): LSH v. 2 284+

After the eighth era, it gets a little murky, as Levitz's tenure continued through LSH v. 3 under different artists after Giffen left. We can debate whether or not Levitz's seven-year tenure should be considered a single era (in my opinion, there was a marked decline in quality in his writing after the LSV War, if not before), but the above paradigm at least answers your question of how many eras existed up to and including the Conway, et. al., period.

This is, of course, just one interpretation. If, for example, we use Superboy's (the poster, above) preference of going by writers, we'd have a somewhat different paradigm. For example, Shooter's first run spills over into the ACTION run (until # 382); also, Cary Bates came on as writer with SUP # 173, and he and Cockrum began their rebirth work with # 193 (when some of the Legionnaires' costumes changed).

Another point of debate is that Levitz returned as writer with LSH # 284, but the art didn't dramatically improve until Broderick's arrival two issues later. It's therefore highly subjective whether that era should begin with # 284 or 286.

I'd start the Late Adventure Era with #340.

That's a pretty fair breakdown, HWW, and more or less in-line with my thoughts on the matter.

As for Levitz 2 (VIII), part of me wants to make it one long era through the end of Vol. 3, but I'd probably split it in two with IX starting right after the LSV War (VIII would include the original "Tales" stories) because of the split from Giffen's influence. And, really, the death of Karate Kid was the first Legionnaire death in quite some time. Certainly, his death was a harbinger of things to come.

So IX encompasses Levitz's collaborations with other artists (primarily Lightle and Laroque before Giff eventually returned at the end) who would be less creatively involved than Giffen was, allowing Paul to make the Legion even more his own. I don't really think IX began immediately a huge decline in quality, however, at the point you specify. For me it began with "Conspiracy", but that's subjective. It could certainly be argued a slow decline began early in Vol. 3, though. But I'd be reluctant to break Levitz's long run down to three parts even with Giffen's return.

As for 5YL, it could either just be X or there could be an XI encompassing the issues after Giffen left and creatively driven by the Bierbaums, Immonen and Al Gordon and the overall decline of the storyline.

What are your thoughts on that breakdown, HWW? And given that breakdown, would IV still be your least favorite/most forgettable?

Ad to other readers of this topic: what do you think of mine and HWW's breakdowns? And is the VII of this topic your choice as the most forgettable of all the preboot eras?

I would go with a much broader definition of era. I would argue that an era can be more defined by change in writing, art, and editorial direction coming together in some kind of perfect storm that sends the team and concept in an totally different direction. Each era contains multiple creative teams and ups and downs in quality.

1. Adventure Era - pre-Adventure/ Adventure/Action
2. Disco Era - Cockrum redesign through Reflecto
3. Levitz Era - LSH #236 through Magic Wars
4. 5YL - LSH v4, Number 1 through Zero Hour
5. Archie Era - Reboot until DnA
6. Late Reboot - First DnA issue through the end of the Legion
7. 3boot - WaK, Bedard and Calero, and S&M
7a. Lightning Saga

And, no, I wouldn't agree that number VII is the most forgettable. It's a dip in quality that lasts the longest of all the dips but, for me, Legion on the Run, End of an Era, and Team 20 are just as forgettable.

Why?

ADV. # 340 marks the introduction of Computo and the death of Triplicate Girl's third self, but is this any more significant than, say, the first appearance of the Time Trapper or Lightning Lad losing an arm?

That sounds reasonable, particularly your point about Giffen's influence being absent from the final product.

My other choice for dividing v.3 would be issue # 12, when the three founders left. Levitz clearly intended that to mark some turning point for the team, as the founders "grew up," and so did the team, which no longer needed its "parents." (Of course, Saturn Girl's eventual return somewhat negated the impact of that change.)

As for the Five Years Later Legion, I see no problem in dividing it into Giffen and Post-Giffen eras. Giffen was such an integral force on that series that his absence was definitely noticeable (for better or worse) on the later issues.

So, to amend the previous paradigm, we now have

VIII. LSH Second Rebirth (Levitz/Broderick/Giffen): LSH v.2/TALES # 284-325 and LSH v.3 # 1-5 or 12

IX. LSH Levitz's Own (Levitz/Lightle/LaRocque/Giffen II): LSH v. 3 # 6 or 13-63

X. 5YL Part One (Giffen III): LSH v.4 # 1-38

XI. 5YL Part Two (Post-Giffen): LSH v. 4 # 39-62

That's certainly a valid paradigm, Jerry, though I'm sure you mean LSH # 286 instead of # 236.

Because of the length of the preboot and its unified timeline, I preferred to keep it separate from later incarnations of the Legion, but there are equally valid reasons to include them.

I assume that Curt Swan's art is the relevant change googoomuck has in mind. Though the change in writers a half-year later seems to me much more significant a break.

Yes, although the SUPERBOY part of that era was more memorable to me than the ACTION part. Perhaps this is because Bates could tell more interesting short stories than E. Nelson Bridwell could, or because once Bates was paired with Cockrum, something was starting to gestate.

All in all, though, very few of the stories from Era IV had a lasting impact on the Legion.

I agree. Swan had, after all, drawn the Legion before, in SUPERMAN, JIMMY OLSEN, etc., and on ADVENTURE covers. So, his arrival as series artist seems less significant than Shooter's contributions. (Though this in no way diminishes Swan's contributions.)

Yes, #286.

Actually my thought was the 2 part introduction of Computo followed by Starboy being being expelled and the Super Stalag of Space 2 parter. I feel that the story telling in those issues was better than it had been before. To quote the forward to LSH Archives Vol 5, "#340-349, the beginnings of the Legion's first Great Era."

{7 pages--Groovy }

goooomuck cites a good quote to back up where he would start Late Adventure. Of course, part of the purpose of the Forward is to hype the contents of what you've just bought...

Overall, I'd probably back up HWW's assertion that it should start with Shooter. I'm feeling the Death of Triplicate Girl/Computo angle goog is shilling, but: a) the death was really downplayed at the time and the deeper ramifications only delved into years later and b) Shooter is such a rockstar with Legion fandom and his first run so rife with growth for the Legion, it seems only appropriate to begin this era with his debut.

I mean, are there any two writers more celebrated in Legion fandom than Shooter and Levitz? Think about it!

Also, Jerry's list definitely has some appeal to me, but it just somehow feels wrong to break all of the preboot into just 4 eras!

So...in an effort to get back on topic (I'm seeing a need for a new topic spin-off ), if one accepts mine and HWW's combined era breakdown, where does VII (mostly comprising the material from this topic) rank for you in the preboot? HWW says it is second-worst/most forgettable, while Jerry says it ranks well above XI (late 5YL). Remember, we're only comparing preboot eras here, not either reboots or their eras.

From what I've seen and read myself, I'd definitely put VII at the bottom. Second-worst is IV which spans the backup era in Action and Superboy.