Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Len Wein's DCU: Legacies

The Brave and the Bold series was notorious for stories that really didn't fit with the continuity of either Earth-1 or Earth-2. The "Earth-B" label was applied by fans to account for these stories.

I guess these are sort of an inspiration for JMS's B&B. While JMS's don't necessarily contradict anything, they are nonetheless difficult to place.

Seems off considering the less continuity-intense DC of that era. Was the prospect of Rock surviving so "out there" that it had to be labelled as such? It doesn't seem as outrageous as some of the other team-ups, anyway.

By the way, a couple articles I've read on Rock say that Kanigher himself established the character's survival beyond WWII in Our Army at War #168. Apparently, he later recanted and affirmed his death at the end of the war in the letters page or something. So he wasn't always firm on Rock not surviving (if the info's correct).

Thanks, Edie! Interesting stuff!

The Batman/Rock teamup had problems other than Rock surviving. It has Batman beginning his career during WWII, but continuing to be active well into the 70s (apparently without aging), without marrying and with the yellow oval, etc. So it's inconsistent with both Earth-1 and Earth-2.

And yeah, I think JMS is consciously echoing the iffy nature of the continuity in the old B&B series.

It isn't just Rock surviving to present day, really. Contradictions in Wayne family history, like Bruce's brother, probably had as much if not more of an effect at the time.

Earth-B is a fan-based thing, though, so it wasn't necessarily DC harping on the continuity here.

^Okay, I'm starting to get the picture. With all those Earths they'd already established, it's kinda funny that DC didn't just officially recognize it at some point. I was a youngster when I read those stories, so I didn't catch any of those quibbles, though.

Y'know lore like Earth-B (which I'd never heard of before) is part of the reason I've generally always loved DC more than Marvel. Damn, I missed those multiple Earths that Crisis so beautifully did away with for a long time! I hope DC gets back to Earth 2 stories/crossovers real soon!

I finally read #4...

WOW! This was my favourite issue yet! And I have loved every issue so far.

Beautiful artwork and a story that is really speaking to me.

I wonder if readers who aren't as big of a DCU buff as I am are enjoying it too? Since I've read or at least am very familiar with all of the events and characters within this title I'm loving seeing them all again through the respectful eyes of Wein. Would someone who didn't know anything about the Crime Champions or Mister Twister or the 'Doom of the Star Diamond' or Jenet Klyburn get the same excitement from this book though? Who cares! I'm enjoying it and that's good enough for me.

Loving all the easter eggs too. Like Jenet! Where has she been for the past 20 years? It seemed like there was a period where every time a book involved S.T.A.R. Labs she was the scientist on duty. And then she just disappeared. Such a nice touch for Wein to remember her. Shame the colourist didn't get her hair right. Or Vicki Vale's. They're red-heads!

That bit with the Doom Patrol was great too. I forgot how heroic their last stand was. And using it as the turning point in showing how 'serious' the DCU became after that was a nice touch. I wonder if they'll go into the O'Neil/Adams Green Lantern/Green Arrow 70s 'issues' period of the DCU much next? Doesn't look like it since next issue is the Crisis already. That seems wrong to me. There should at least be one more issue before the 80s IMO. We certainly do not need 5 issues of post-Crisis stuff!

I'm surprised how engaged I'm becoming with the Paul Lincoln framing story too. Wein's a good writer to get me caring about a guy and his family so much in just a few quick scenes in a few issues.

Finally, the War-characters catch up story was beautiful. (And ironic considering my post earlier in this thread.)

Since I've stopped worrying about continuity issues in this book I'm fine with the Losers' appearance here. This story took place on an alternate earth as far as I'm concerned. Maybe even Earth-2. (Did the War characters exist on that earth?) In my own personal DCU continuity they died in WWII - and I'm sure any future reference to them within the books will also stick to that continuity (and also ignore that execrable Creature Commandos relaunch of about a decade ago that had one of them come back as a cyborg. Ugh!). But mentioning their deaths here would have distracted from the purpose of this story, which was to celebrate the touching final moments of you-know-who.

One question though - I knew all the rest of the War characters, but who was the Ben Hunter guy they said was absent?

Great book and I can't wait for the Crisis issue. I may even buy both covers for the Perez awesomeness and that is something I *never* do.

The leader of Hunter's Hellcats, in a series that appeared in Our Fighting Forces.

Thanks OM. I always thought Hunter's Hellcats was a Marvel property. Good to know.

Read # 4 tonight and loved it. After reading everyone's earlier comments about The Losers, I felt guilty for loving the backup tale. My experience with war comics is nil, so I had no idea about Rock's fate or that the others were supposed to have died.

Mystery Lad made an excellent point earlier... the Doom Patrol should be the most-loved characters in the DCU. I want this addressed.

LEGACIES has been a treasure so far, despite the nightmare is must be causing continuity cops (I'm not one for the most part).

^ The Losers originally all died in Crisis #3 at the hands of some shadow demons. (In a really well-written, respectful scene by Wolfman I thought - that was my first time seeing those characters and I was instantly sorry for their loss).

http://www.comics.org/issue/40058/cover/4/?style=default

A few months later a Losers special came out that gave them all a less super-hero-ey, more realistic death at the hands of some German soliders.

http://www.comics.org/issue/40830/cover/4/?style=default

And then Darwyn Cooke memorably had them all get eaten by dinosaurs in New Frontier.

http://www.comics.org/issue/209299/cover/4/?style=default

So until this issue of Legacies it seemed that the one constant with the Losers is that they always all die.

But don't feel guilty for enjoying the story Lash! I normally like my continuity adhered to and I'm loving this book too!

Bleahh-- I'm no fan of the Crisis on Infinite Earths, and happily sold my issues years ago so it's little wonder I don't remember that.

While I like that a Special came out soon after and gave them more realistic deaths, it's amusing the Crisis was being contradicted AS IT WAS HAPPENING.

I've been reading the issues I've ordered for my buddy Mike, and I'm almost regretting not ordering a copy for myself with #4. I find I like Wein's everyman narrator, Paul Lincoln... moreso than Waid's KC counterpart Norman McCay. Maybe because McCay is embedded too deeply into the story as KC Superman's moral compass... I'm pretty sure I've got copies coming of the CRISIS issues, and plan on getting the full series when it's collected.

P.S.-- Garcia-Lopez is THE MAN.

Pov, I, too, like Paul Lincoln better than Norman McCay, and, for that matter, better than Phil Sheldon from Marvels. Paul still has a twinkle in his eye, he's not embittered like Phil is.

I don't necessarily see the Special contradicting the events of COIE, as much as cementing their deaths on the post-CRISIS Earth... much like Byrne's relaunch of Superman, or Perez's Wonder Woman.

I'm ashamed to say I'm not that familiar with MARVELS...

I'm pretty sure I actually *have* it, at least an issue or two. I probably only grabbed those after reading KC...

Marvels is overrated anyway.

How can it not be? It's Busiek and Ross!

Oh, yeah, I went there.

HAH!

After reading #4, I think it was also my favorite issue so far. The reasoning is because of that damn fine Jose Luis Garcia Lopez art, which was fall-down amazing, and then the back-up Joe Kubert artwork, which was gorgeous with a hint of grit and a real pleasure to see, since Kubert was so instrumental in weaving DC's war character tapestry.

Just imagine if Garcia Lopez & Wein were doing the current JLA/JSA crossover...but I digress...

I'm of the opinion the Losers all died in WWII, so much like earlier in this mini, I see this whole things as existing entirely outside of DC Continuity, almost like an elseworlds. I'm okay with that, I can still enjoy a good story.

Everytime I see it, I love that image of the Golden Age Atom leaning down to shake the Silver Age Atom's hand. And I love seeing Batman when he's friendly, such as his eagerly shaking Dr. Fate's hand.

For the comparison to Marvels, I don't think this is as good as Marvel's was (which was excellent and certainly Ross's best work ever), but this is still terrific.

The Source has the preview for the next issue (the Crisis one).

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/09/09/it%e2%80%99s-a-crisis-level-issue-of-legacies/

I didn't realise George Perez was doing the interiors too? Awesome! Can't wait!

UGGGH! That page with Batman/Joker just ENRAGED me... *puts on old broken record: *I HATE THE JOKER!!!! And Batman as well as anyone else who has ever not taken a chance to kill him is just as indirectly responsible for what has to be by now the thousands of people he has murdered!!!!! I counted 19 people in that scene alone, and there were probably more off-panel!!!!!!!!!*

I totally share your Joker hate MLLASH so I didn't even bother reading that page in the preview. I'm guessing it wasn't a good one.

The Joker = the Sylar of the DCU IMO. An unwelcome presence who has stayed around LONG after their use-by-date and who's existence just makes everyone else look bad. God, what I wouldn't give to see him gone.

In happier news - I just love the way George Perez draws Green Arrow (especially in that costume). I always have. I would love to see a Perez/Green Arrow mini. (So long as it had nothing to do with all this doom-and-gloom crap that's been ruining the character for the last few years.)

I thought Legacies # 5 was excellent. I was especially impressed that Jimmy seems genuinely rehabilitated rather than the entire series having a running sub-text about childhood friends of whom one's good and the other bad.

Wasn't so impressed with the back-up story; it was pretty much all Adam Strange. I guess you need Space Ranger if having a shape-changer like Cryll is an essential element of the story. But Tommy Tomorrow was just a waste of space.