Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

I love Rita. I didn't read Dead Avengers or the core Chaos War mini, but from spoilers I've read and things I've been told, her status is currently "unknown." It's so annoying when Marvel or DC do things like that.

Dead Avengers was amazingly good. The status of Rita and the Swordsman was left vague enough that one *could* consider it a possible 'get out of death' card, or just take it as a happy ending for the two characters, having, at least in death, managed to become the heroes that they felt somewhat cheated out of in their short times as living heroes.

I haven't read the core Chaos War stuff, although I did get the Dead X-Men and Alpha Flight stories, and found both of them to be, at best, forgettable.

Each of the six 'Dead Avengers' (Swordsman, Rita/Yellowjacket 2, Deathcry, the Vision, Doctor Druid and Captain Mar-Vell) got a page or two of flashback to their lives that were, in most cases, intriguing, and, in some cases, probably did more to humanize them / flesh them out as characters than their original appearances did!

I think one of my biggest problems with having Wolverine on the team is his gross overexposure. I don't think he's a good fit for the Avengers, either, but mostly he's just in everything! He's the Morgan Freeman of the Marvel Universe. I understand he's popular, but I think the more you have of something, the less interesting it becomes.

It's the same with Spider-Man. he already has a bunch of his own titles, then he's a member of the Avengers and the FF. Nobody has that much free time

Dead Avengers was definitely better than Dead X-Men. Much like Alpha Flight was resurrected after Chaos War, I too always hoped that Yellowjacket (Rita) would resurface alive afterward. I never knew a lot about her before, but I love her history and I loved the characterization presented in the Dead Avengers mini series. Perhaps she's a loose end Vision could try to find since he too was dead with her but now back to life?

Doubtful, but you never know.

I like that Spidey and Wolverine were finally removed from the Avengers proper title. I liked them better in New Avengers anyway and I think a lot of people would rather New Avengers be New Defenders than vice versa. While I like the idea of Storm on the Avengers, it's about five years too late. Back when she was just on Wakanda and didn't swing by San Francisco or the X-Men a lot, she would have been perfect. Now she's the co-ruler of a nation and starring in three different team titles. It's too much.

Looks like the Hawkeye/Spider-Woman romance is heating up. I'd love to see Mockingbird's opinion or have her find her own new man.

I don't know about the Dead Wars stuff but I DO know that the line-up for the Avengers seemed bloated beyond belief and there were almost no X-Men.
The Thing needs to go back home and so does the Wolverine, imo.

Spidey doesn't seem to have a home, but I think I'd like him some place besides the Avengers.
He was in them before and it didn't last very long, IIRC.

Anyway, other than Spirder Woman and Ms. Marvel, I really mostly saw Cap, Iron Man and Thor, who are pretty classic.

I don't like the Vision, so I hope he gets in a huff about the gals wanting Wanda back, and leaves for outter space or something.

I'd be happy with just a few active members with lots of others on call.
I'd go with Wanda, Cap, Stark, Thor and Carol as the permanent core with others coming in for arcs.

But, that's just me.


I just want lots of the depowered mutants brought back.
Those that want their powers back, anyway.

The Avengers are really three teams lumped into one here. Vision's newly back from the dead, so I doubt he'll be going anywhere.

Speaking of back from the dead, SECRET AVENGERS features a welcome development along those lines.

Come to think of it, so does the concluding issue of FEARLESS? <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> Valkyie briefly dies, fulfilling her deal with Odin. She has a short reunion with her long dead lover, but quickly grows bored and is relieved when Dr. Strange effects her return to life </span></span>

The All-mothers mandate the creation of a Midgard born corps of eight new Valkyrior to ward the hammers that have been what everyone's fighting about. We don't see who is chosen, or when they might be chosen and we aren't told editorially when follow through might occur. But itl's fun to speculate.

AVENGER'S ACADEMY is a book that I'm surprised more people here aren' t reading. This sees the conclusion of a guest appearancewith The Runaways. With Devil Dinosaur abd Moon Boy also cameoing.

There's a quite nice, if bordering on corny, sequence of a mystical 'walk in each other's shoes' POV shift. Sometimes corn's the only vegetable that befits the meal.

A romantic connection is made, unwise decisions are unmade, wiser ones reached and a most welcome reunion is effected. A further one appears to be in the offing.

I was looking at Marvel micros on a site and there are hundreds, just in the S'!
I'm not sure how many of them are 'mutants' but with that many characters, maybe I should rethink my desire for Wanda to repower all of the mutants!
Amazing!

I prefer Spiderman and Daredevil as solo heroes. They can team up with the Avengers occasionally but I'd prefer they not be regular members of any team. I agree that Wolverine is not a good fit for Avengers either. Send him back to X-men or let him go solo. The Avengers seem too establishment for a maverick like him.

I liked their appearance in the big battle with Galactus in the pages of the Fantastic Four. The FF, the Avengers and Dr. Strange are in the thick of it, and Spider-Man and Daredevil are watching from a nearby building, with Daredevil telling Spider-Man something like, 'Face it, if they need our help, Earth's doomed anyway...'

(That being said, Spider-Man's power level is well above classic Avengers like Captain America, Hawkeye or the Black Widow.)

I don't really like Spider-Man as part of the Fantastic Four, either, although I've always liked temporary team-ups of Spider-Man and the Human Torch, or whomever.

If there was a team that Spider-Man might not feel too out of place on, I could almost see him fitting in with some of the more eclectic Defenders line-ups, or even, in a whacky 'Spider-Man: Menace or Threat?' situation, where J. Jonah Jameson has well and truly succeeded in painting him as a villain, pehaps even the Thunderbolts...

Maybe even Heroes for Hire. Just not the Avengers.

And if the Avengers needs a token mutant, I'd rather they ditch Wolverine and use a mutant who has already been an Avenger, like Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch or the Beast.

Or, someone completely out of left field. Kitty Pryde, for instance, might make an interesting Avenger!

Yes, Kitty would fit in. But, I like her just about anywhere.

Maybe she can become one of those new Valkyries that Mystery Lad was talking about.
She already has the perfect power for the job.
And Lockheed would make a great fly ahead type of character for her.

Ooh, Valkyrie was always a favorite Defender!

The Avengers have had a few male god-types, with Thor, Hercules and Ares, and a strong female character with mythological ties would be an interesting change-up.

Her cameo a year or three ago in Avengers Academy was amusing.

The new Valkyrior are supposed to be Midgard (Earth) born and female and would have the purpose of replacing Asgardians who now are guarding a set of ancient, powerful hammers.

I think Valkyrie's choices might look like:

Hellcat
Black Widow
Jane Foster
Dani Moonstar
Monica Rambeau
Thundra
Clea
Veil (or another Avengers Academy student, but since Veil quit the Academy, she wouldn't leave a hole)

If Marvel editorial does the choosing, it'd look like:

Storm
Ms. Marvel
Electra
Emma Frost
Spider-woman
She-Hulk
Jessica (Jewel)
Red She-Hulk

and I wouldn't buy it. Storm, Carol and green She-Hulk would all be fine. Even Emma (though I'd hate it). The rest? No.

If I picked characters I'd just want to see interact:

Polaris (Hey- she *was* a Defender for a Day)
Crystal
Darkstar
Magma
Hellcat
Mantis
Deadly Nightshade
Madame Masque

Who would you pick? Who do you think Val would pick? What about Marvel editorial?

What's the point of guarding hammers?


I'd want them to take dead warriors to Valhalla, for goodness sake.


I always love to see your creativity, ML and Set!

Marvel is owned by Disney now, isn't it?
So, I don't have a clue what the Marvel editorial would pick, I'm afraid.
sigh

For the group doing Valkyrie stuff, I guess I'd pick:

1. Shadowcat & Lockheed - yes, I'm sticking with them,
2. Dani Moonstar - I'd like to keep her as one of the 'sisters'
3. Iridia - a different Inhuman but beautiful, my childhood favorite Inhuman
4. Meggan - <3 this character and haven't seen her in forever
5 a&b. The two Power Pack girls - they should be in their middle to late teens by now. They'd ride the same horse, one for the excitement/joy of the battles and the other for the gathering in of the heroes.
6. Hope - after the Phoenix thingy that's going now
7. Electra - sorry, but I think that she might be great working with the dead
8. Nightside - the Shady from the Imperial Guard, even though I know that she's not Earthborn, she can get a special calling, to bring in heroes from the greater universe.

Alternate if Nightshade can't join - Wanda - she needs a bunk and this would be a good place for her, I think.

Hmmm. Guess I have to go more into what led up to the Midgard Valkyrior. The hammers cause whoever wields them to become stronger-than-Hulk class. They also are intensely corruptive.

The back story of Valkyrie, the former Defender, was told throughout FEARLESS. Odin made her a promise that one day she could rejoin Sigmund (I think it's Sigmund) in Valhalla after honoring the terms of his offer to lead the Choosers of the Slain.

By the time of the events of FEARLESS, Val was world-weary and ready for Odin's promise to be made good. This was on the back of her mind as she fought through Avengers, Fantastic Four members and X-men and, especially the Red Skull's daughter (and company), in quest of the hammers- an extension of Odin's charge. Sin merged the hammers into herself and Val died fighting her.

Odin's promise was granted, but Val was immediately bored in the afterlife and welcomed Dr. Strange's effort to return her to life and finish off Sin and etc.

The new purpose the All-Mothers offered was the creation of this new Valkyrior corps of Midgard-born women, one for each hammer (presumably). Valkyrie and, by extension, her Valkyrior, is no longer a chooser of the slain.

It's not clear yet if she still *could* take a soul to Valhalla, or if she still has the death-sense. What is certain, is that she's no longer obligated to do so. Her contract with Odin is concluded.

So, just what 'Valkyrie stuff' they'd be doing on Earth/Midgard remains to be seen. Though it might at times include bearing souls to Valhalla, that wouldn't be this group's primary purpose.

Before you say that they should be called something besides Valkyrior, remember that Marines don't just fulfill water-related missions.

I'd quite like this- especially seeing Lockheed and Aragorn interact.

This, to me, would be the 'gotta be' of the whole thing. I'd be pretty disappointed if she isn't included.

I love this idea! I liked Iridia, too (just not as much as the Amalquin sisters). I'd be great if Iridia became connected to the Norse goddess of spring- maybe getting 'spring' powers. Or something.

This character's currently appearing in X-FORCE. And I imagine she could turn up in SECRET AVENGERS, since her husband's now a member of that group.

The oldest is in AVENGERS ACADEMY and the younger girl (still Franklin-aged) is in FANTASTIC FOUNDATION book.

Not fond of her. A poor replacement for Jean, for me, anyway.

Not the purpose of these Valkyrior. I think she's overexposed, anyway.

Cool and quirky idea. Iridia and Nightside- fun choices.

I have a feeling Wanda will end up elsewhere, but if Marvel *has* to 'double book', she'd be a good choice. Plus, Valkyrie should have Barbara Norriss's memories of working with the Scarlet Witch before. I'm not really clear about whether Brunnhilde still has that kind of recall, though. At one time, she did.

Aragorn from the book(s) and movie?
I didn't know she was in the Marvel universe!

And who are the Amalquin sisters?
gads
Other than flying, I don't know what powers, if any, that Iridia has. Given her rebirth in the mists, I thought that she might be interested in bringing warriors to a comparable experience.

Thanks for the info on the PP gals, I'm glad to know that they're being utilized.


I'm not sure when Jean died, this time, or who Hope is, but I liked her in the A xs X books I've just gotten.
And I like her kidness.

I know that the original idea was to guard hammers but, I think that that's a pretty silly thing to do, even if they're Moljor type weapons.
Let the boys guard that crap.
imo


My group ideas are for a classic group of Valkrior.

And I didn't know that Electra was over used.
She's been around forever and has only been in a handful of books, that I know of.
She's in everything now I take it.
sigh

I just like Wanda and would like to see her used at a power level that makes sense and keeps the character on panel, ya know?

You certainly know them all better than me.
:forsure:

Aragorn is the name of the flying horse that Valkyrie used to ride. No relation to Viggo Mortenson's character.

Crystalia Amalquin and Medusalith Amalquelin Boltagon, I think are their full names.

*

With the hammers granting Thor-like strength and toughness, and being inherently corrupting, there's quite a few I wouldn't want holding them, because it either feels 'wrong' for that particular character to become a 'tank,' or because that particular character has a history of 'going dark.' Ilyanna, for instance, or Moondragon, might be poor choices.

Firebird, formerly of the West Coast Avengers, seems like someone who might have the strength of character to resist corruption, and yet, adding Thor-like strength and toughness to her pre-existing powerset feels a little odd.

Thundra, while occasionally over-the-top in her depictions, is both strong-willed and already a 'tank' character, based on strength and toughness. A hammer would just be more of what she's already got, and she's often used some sort of bludgeoning weapon, so it would, IMO, 'look right' with her visual aesthetic (partiicularly the chained hammer that the Absorbing Man used).

Patsy Walker / Hellcat already has some experience with corruptive influences (between her own experiences, using Devil-Slayer's cloak for awhile, and marrying the Son of Satan!), although her becoming a Thor-class brawler would, IMO, radically change her look and feel.

Mantis might fit, but I hates her, precious, I hates her sooooo much...

Snowbird might think that she's perfect for the job, and, who knows, she might actually be. The sight of her with a Thor-hammer would be jarring, at first, but she'd be an interesting fit, since she represents a completely different mythology than the Asgardians, which has some story potential (an Asgardian Valkyrior who is *also* an Inuit demigoddess? Whee!).

Jessica Drew / Spider-Woman has had a wild run of strangeness, losing her powers one by one, and then having them restored, bouncing around the Marvel Universe in an odd fashion. I could see Bendis trying to get either her, or Jessica Jones, assigned to one of the hammers. Jessica Jones, who, IMO, has always felt like a fifth wheel, might be a better choice, at least visually. Spider-Woman with a hammer would feel odder, visually, and an inevitable image of Jessica Jones with a Thor-hammer in one hand and her baby in the other hand, preparing to dispense an epic smack down to someone who threatened her family, could be cool.

From the X-folk, there are a few already strong and tough ladies out there that would look thematically okay with a hammer. Frenzy/Joanna Cargill would be my first choice, although she doesn't exactly scream 'incorruptible,' given her past allegiances. Monet could be another interesting choice, but I'd rather not, just because she's in X-Factor, and it's one of the two Marvel books that I *do* read, and would rather not have tied into this hammertime business.

Of the Avengers Academy, Finesse seems like an interesting choice. She's coldly logical, and as unlikely to be seduced into evil as she is to be won over to good.

Sersi needs more cosmic god-like power like the Beyonder needs another wide-lapelled baggy trousered pimp-suit.

Clea would be a top choice, if she's not currently running the Dread Dimension. Other interesting sorceress choices could be Amanda Sefton or Jennifer Kale, both of which have fought off some evil corruption in their day.

Ahhh, Crystal and Medusa.
K.
And Valkyrie's horse.


I hates Mantis, too, and Moondragon, I'm afraid.
Clea isn't a favorite, either.


After Set's examples, I see what the idea is.
I certainly wouldn't want Iridia mucking about with a hammer, or the PP kids.
I'll have to think about it.

I just reread the issue because something was bugging my memory. The eight Earth Valkyrie wouldn't be the ones warding the hammers. They're replacements for Asgardian Valkyrie who have hidden them and will presumably guard them.

Freya's charge "And yet my sisters Gaea and Idunn agree it is time for the Valkyrior to ride once more... and this time with a calling greater than simply ferrying the fallen to Valhalla.

Eight women... selected as symbols of valor and honor and reward for those who adhere to their standard. Eight heroes... vigilant in their post against evil... fearless in the execution of their duties.

But this time... they will not be chosen from the realm of Asgard.

As our kingdom in now upon Midgard, so too shall our shieldmaidens be chosen from among the heroes of Midgard.

Chosen and commanded by you." ("you" being Valkyrie)

Sorry for my spotty memory.

Eh, it was a fun digression thinking of which mighty Marvel femmes would look hawt with a Thor-hammer!

For just hiding them somewhere and serving as 'guardians,' characters with some sort of access to a secret stash-away place would seem ideal.

Magick, for instance, could tuck her hammer away in Limbo. Monica Rambeau could keep hers hidden somewhere in space, or even inside the sun, that she can get to at lightspeed, and most other people couldn't get to at all. Clea's got the Dread Dimenion on call. Now that Dagger has Cloak's powers, she could absorb a hammer into the Darkforce Dimension. If Thundra can still get to and from Arkon's dimension, or Patsy Walker can still get her hands on the Devil-Slayer cape, they've also got option.

Others mentioned, like Elektra or Kitty Pryde aren't as well-suited to that sort of thing (although something could be cobbled together, such as giving Elektra a spiritual link to K'un-Lun, or Kitty being able to store a hammer out-of-phase inside herself).

The Wasp, if she weren't dead at the moment, could shrink a guarded hammer down to microscopic size and store it under a fingernail or something, while the Scarlet Witch could, in theory, just re-arrange quantum probabilities and go all Schrodinger's Hammer and cause it to 'not be' until she calls it back into existence.

Regardless, Moondragon probably shouldn't be trusted with one.

Yeah,

I was intrigued by the visuals that you mentioned, Set, combining myths and things.

So, I gathered all of the team pics that the 3 of us made, including ML's pics that he thought that Valkyrie would make.
Then, I looked them all up, sigh, and picked some that I liked.


These are the first 3, hammers or not (they're not visible anyway), that I've gotten pretty well to the satisfactory stage.

The originals are by Razor, with some adjustments from Blancett and from the Micro-Heroes Conpendium with combining and coloring and some graphics of my own (especially Kitty.)

These are Byzantine designs, rather than Asgardian, but they're so beautiful I had to go with them.
I added various froms of Thor's helmet wings, to indicate the Valkrior status and Asgardian connections.

They are Magma - suggested by ML, Snowbird, from Set, and Shadowcat with Lockheed, my pick.
Edit: Had to rework Snowbird, Kitty and Lockheed.
sigh

Someone at another board asked people's opinions of the period reprinted in ESSENTIAL AVENGERS #8. Here's mine...


I always thought the outfit Wanda had when she was "possessed" was the hottest one she ever wore. Kinda wish someone had adopted it as her regular costume, but nobody ever did.

It's a shame there was so much chaos on the bookj, behind the scenes. Seems like they couldn't hold onto any artists for very long, or the ones they got kept missing issues. And then of course there's all that horrrendously bad inking by Dan Green...

On top of everything else, I can never shake the feeling that we lost something really wonderful when Gerry Conway ran Steve Englehart off the book, because HE wanted to make extra money writing on the side while being Editor. And then he didn't even stick around that long. In retrospect, the best thing I can say about Jim Shooter is, when he first got on the book, he WAS an improvement over Conway. But that doesn't make his work better than Englehart's. Conway had a lot to answer for.

I also think it's a shame George Perez hadn't gotten over the bad influence of Rich Buckler back then. that is, doing 3-4 books at once, and blowing deadlines on ALL of them. My favorite work of Perez back then was AVENGERS (with F.F. coming in a close second-- but if I had to choose, I feel he was better-suited for AVENGERS). Imagine if that entire period had been wall-to-wall Perez work, without all those fill-ins.

I wish I'd seen the Perez work on the Avengers and the FF.
sigh

On the Valkyrior, sorry if what inspired me doesn't inspire anyone else, but that's the way it goes most of the time, anyway.
sigh

Here's my version of my candidate, Nightside.
Still based on Razor's work, but this is mostly mine, with some help from JR and Future:


I have another that's almost done that should be interesting for Dani fans.
I hope.

Shady, I love your little valkyriors! I particularly like Nightside and Magma. I wonder if all the heroines would embrace the Asgardian costuming?

Would they have the choice? Hah!

I also wonder if they'll all get winged horses... they wouldn't seem like valkyries without them. Though if a character can fly on their own...

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Dani. Thanks for doing these.