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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Avengers #344 (Echoes of the Past) - yeah, that's Steve's signature there... The Good - It's a no holds barred fight between The Black Knight and The Swordsman!!! What else do you want?!?!?! Seriously though, a blast seeing Dane take on the Swordsman, and come away with a 'win' as it were, he did take advantage of an opening...like anyone would. Jarvis and Marilla butt heads in the kitchen. Sersi's back...and there's something brewing there. The Bad - Once again, most of the Avengers are taken out of the fight with little to no effort. Thor get's blasted out of the sky, Vision gets tossed for a loop and Herc gets pummeled, Only Dane and Crystal really do anything productive in the fight. The Ugly - Apparently whatever Sersi saw in the mirror. Not necessarily ugly in and of itself, but bad enough somehow to waylay her from trying to help. This one also sets up the beginning of Operation Galactic Storm...more to come once the issues are at home...
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: I've never actually read the fill-in issue. I always skip it when I reread this run. (which after all these posts I may have to do soon) Skip 340 to be sure...but 341 and 342 at least give explanation as to why Rage is not on the team...and are not a bad read themselves.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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LOVE the Dane/Philip battle! Philip was so much cooler than the first Swordsman IMO. Of course it helped that he was clean-shaven. Nothing against guys with 'taches, but the first Swordsman had a very cheesy one. Originally posted by Dev-Em: Once again, most of the Avengers are taken out of the fight with little to no effort. Thor get's blasted out of the sky, Vision gets tossed for a loop and Herc gets pummeled, Only Dane and Crystal really do anything productive in the fight. Yeah, but Magdalene kicking Herc's ass shows what a badass she is. I love Magdalene (who, if anyone was wondering, was a Marvel analog of Big Barda.)
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: I liked the "lightsaber." I thought it was a good way to circumvent the Comics Code.
As for Herc's "voice", I've always imagined the late, great Roger C. Carmel (Harry Mudd on Star Trek TOS and Cyclonus on Transformers G1; he also played a Russian spy on an episode of Hawaii Five-O, where he had a full beard and I swear he even LOOKED like Hercules!) Like I said, I understand why they changed Dane's sword. My thing comes in that as soon as they did it, they had him fight someone with a real sword. Ah well...it wasn't a big thing to me really. Personally, I just always imagined Herc (in the Marvel Universe anyway) to be very bombastic and always pushing the edge of being over the top. Harras gave him some of the best lines no matter how you view him.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: Originally posted by Dev-Em: [b]Once again, most of the Avengers are taken out of the fight with little to no effort. Thor get's blasted out of the sky, Vision gets tossed for a loop and Herc gets pummeled, Only Dane and Crystal really do anything productive in the fight. Yeah, but Magdalene kicking Herc's ass shows what a badass she is. I love Magdalene (who, if anyone was wondering, was a Marvel analog of Big Barda.)[/b]No doubt she was proven a bad ass in this issue. She took on Herc, the Vision and Crystal...and bounded away from them with nary a scratch. Good intro for her, but another bad showing for the powerhouses on the team.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: I know from reading other posts of yours in this forum how much you like Crystal, and I was wondering if you'd care to share some thoughts on her in this thread. Well, at first it was her exotic, yet girl-next-door looks and her very underrated, and understoried, super powers that caught my attention. She was a favorite of mine before the Harras era of AVENGERS that's recently been discussed. In fact, I can't quite remember just when she became a 'pet' character. In the 70's, Marvel reprinted stories from the 60's quite frequently. So, appearances of Crys in 'contemporary' Marvel (like her wedding to Quicksilver) might be on the stand next to her introductory stories in Lee/Kirby FANTASTIC FOUR issues. There, I discoverd a girl who escaped the constraints of her somewhat oppressive (too strong a word, I suppose) family to satisfy her curiosity and sense of wonder about the world. I identified with that. There's a bit of the princess from the movie ROMAN HOLIDAY in her- though I don't think she's at all like Audrey Hepburn. Her close relationship with one of comic's best 'superpets', Lockjaw, also made me her fan- since I'm a definite animal-lover. I always think of him as 'her' dog, more than Black Bolt's, who is always identified as his owner. That old thought that people who animals like and are drawn to must be good folk is one I kind of believe. Though not the opposite of that adage. Later, her sexuality became pretty much the sum of her characterization. I disliked the limitation placed on her- though I think three or four partners is hardly prolific. I miss her sunny, flirtatious side. In a way, I think of her as Marvel's character counterpart (definitely *not* in the superheroic sense) to Donna Troy. Niceness is a big part of her character, or should be. A lot has happened to her over the years- resulting in a certain stern note to her. There's a little bitterness and world-weariness to her. Integrating the seemingly disparate qualities would make her a very captivating character, I think. I'm a fantasy novel reader, so her earth/air/water/fire powers appeal to me. I can imagine so much potential for her as a superheroine. That's a common theme for a lot of characters I 'champion'. Imagining creative uses for their powers or characterization. I guess that fosters a certain sense of investment. Across the board, I find I really like almost all the gals who became 'one girl to a team' crashers. Polaris, Scarlet Witch, Hellcat, Lilith Clay, Black Canary (on two teams!)... I really like this crop of heroines. And find it sad that 2/3s of them have been so very underused. Her relationships to Invisible Girl, to her sister, Medusa, her former sister-in-law, the Scarlet Witch and most recently to Polaris have been pretty interesting. I kind of hate the way the sweet status of Crystal babysitting for Sue turned into a hotbed of resentment. I like that the way she relates to Medusa is complicated and melodramatic. There was a graphic novel featuring the Inhumans where Crystal helped hide her sister when she gave birth. She also finally purged herself (at least for awhile) of that pesky vulnerability to pollution weakness by turning it into a sort of strength. We haven't seen her do it since, but in that story she created a monster from all the toxins around her. That could be handy- with Reed, Hank(s) and Iron Man's input. Crys and Wanda, unfortunately isn't associated with much other than Crystal's worst moment (cheating with the realtor) and acting like she'd never even seen Wanda before during the dreckfest, AVENGERS DISSASSEMBLED. Crys and Lorna shared some great scenes when they were both relegated to outer space- I hope there's follow-up. Earlier, I mentioned the Quicksilver/Crystal wedding. That's a strange couple of issues. The various teams- the FF, the Avengers, the X-men and the Inhumans-- interrelate to each other in a way they never do elsewhere. I kind of loved the spectacle of the pre-wedding events. But it doesn't really seem to fit in with anything published around it. I loved the art, but Crystal really isn't presented all that well, here. This is making me want to dig out some old issues and have a rereading festival. With the mess my collection's in, that'd be a much bigger chore than it sounds like, though.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Unseen, not unheard
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Unseen, not unheard
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I'm not familiar with the Avengers, but Crystal (along with Monica Rambeau) are two of my top "pet" avengers too. Underutilized, powerful, and heroic are three words that would sum the up.
With Crystal, her scenes in Operation Galactic Storm and its What If two-parter play a big part in why I'm such a big fan. She had to mourn the Black Knight in the What If, but she was still an Avengers mainstay to the end. Her line to Cap - "If you let Dane's sacrifice be in vain, I'll kill you" - was chillingly powerful and showed how much love she had to give.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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Thanks for sharing thoughts on Crystal, guys. Both of you are very insightful.
Mother, warrior, princess, elemental, heroine. She's always been such a potential star, but even moreso since her stint with the Avengers. She evolved and matured in ways that subsequent writers have ignored.
I'm waiting for her to reveal that she kept the bomber jacket out of sentimental value.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 280
Active
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The Harras-Epting run of the Avengers were the very first comics I read waaay back when I was 10 or 11. I didn't come in till the later issues, when the whole gatherers storyline was in full gear, so I missed most the issues discussed so far...
But as far as Crystal goes....am I the only one who thought she was kind of... well... a bitch? Sure she *seemed* sweet, but she came off to me as passive-aggressive and manipulative. Always talking about how she wanted to patch things up with her "estranged" husband while she literally threw herself at Black Knight. Sersi had dibs on him anyway.
Through the whole Crystal-Dane-Sersi triangle I was rooting for Sersi. But then I always, preferred Veronica to Betty.
(not trying to rustle the feathers of any crystal fans, just playing the devil's advocate)
"are you forgetting that I was a professional twice over- an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist."
-Tobias Funke
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Joined: Jul 2005
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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Thanks for chiming in, KidChaos, and no offense taken.
Crystal could be passive-agressive and manipulative for sure -- she was a princess after all -- but I think when the chips were down, she rose above her faults, like a true heroine. I do think her sweetness was genuine, though. She was complicated, that's what I loved about her.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Okay, one almost dislocated disk later (stupid boxes...this is why I need to get these things bound) I have all the Avengers and other related issues to finish the run through 375.
Aside from just the Operation Galactic Storm and Blood Ties crossover stuff, I also grabbed the 2 issue What If...? OGS issues. I'll actually cover those right after I finish the main story.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Cool. Looking forward to your reviews.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Captain America #98 (Operation Galactic Storm Part 1) The Good - Mark Gruenwald gives us a good introductory step into this undertaking. Rick Jones has a dream of Hala being destroyed, and somehow Cap is there...but he isn't. The rest of the issue is setting up Rick and Cap having a talk after years of not talking, and then they are attacked by Warstar. Rick escapes but is then taken by Oracle (no, not that one...the other one, the Imperial Guard one.) One thing that I want to mention here is that I enjoyed that the Avengers had staff that they interacted with at this point besides Jarvis. It was a nice touch that gave them a broader feel to me. The Bad - Not the greatest art in the world, but passable...definitely not the worst art I've seen either. The Ugly - The Supreme Intelligence and Supremor pretty much have that covered.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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My favorite thing about that issue was that Gruenwald gave Peter David's Hulk a plug. We even got a cameo from Delphi, the Pantheon's seer.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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That was a nice touch, and gives you a mental picture of other aspects of the Marvel Universe at that time.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Avengers West Coast (Operation Galactic Storm Part 2) The Good - To quote Keanu ...Woooooah. Massive info dump in the first three pages regarding Rick's history with Capt. Mar-Vell. All good info that is relayed in an easy to understand manner. We're then introduced to the Avengers that operate on the West Coast (More on this topic a little later.) Cap gives them a call and Iron Man and the rest (sans Mockingbird) are off to pick him up. From there they track down Rick and fight not only the Imperial Guardsmen that took Rick, but also a Kree Sentry. Guardsmen get what they want, and get away with Rick. The Avengers beat the Sentry, but loose Rick. Quasar is brought into the story, but cannot catch up to the IG in time, and they're off. Good story pace is continuing. New characters being introduced pretty smoothly, and after two issues of info dumping, I still do not feel overwhelmed. The Bad - The idea that the Avengers located on the West Coast are somehow inferior to those on the East Coast always bugged me. Seemed counter productive and invariably leads to lots of stupid 'arguments' between the two teams by characters that should be above petty crap like that. Always felt forced. The Ugly - Not much really. A few wonky panels here and there, but a overall solid effort throughout by everyone.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Quasar #32 (Operation Galactic Storm Part 3) The Good - There is someone after the Nega Bands located in Mar-Vells tomb. After a quick side trip to the sun, Quasar goes to help Starfox with whomever has breached the tomb of Mar-Vell. After being attacked by what seems to be the entire Imperial Guard, Ms. Minerva and Capt Atlas (of the Kree, natch), get hold of the Nega Bands. Capt. Atlas bangs them together, and as soon as you can say 'holy switcharoo', Rick Jones is now in airless space. The Bad - Not much. Plot moves along nicely (aside form a couple panels to keep Quasars own regular stories going.) The Ugly - Not much - Greg Cappullo provides some pretty clean art here.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Avengers West Coast #80
To the "ugly" I would add the excess of cheeseball comedy lines, and the very presence of Living Lightning, whom I've always found an offensive stereotype.
Quasar #32
I love that most of the issue takes place in outer space.
Capullo did a decent job. It looks kind of like John Romita Junior circa 1984 with a really good inker.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Wonder Man #7 (Operation Galactic Storm Part 4) The Good - I'm going to admit something right now, I have a soft spot for Simon. He's probably third on my list on fave Avengers. So my thoughts here are a little biased. The art is very good here, as Jeff Johnson puts in a nice effort. The story is basically one huge battle between Wonder Man and Capt. Atlas. Things get tricky for Simon when Atlas figures out how to use the Nega Bands to his advantage. No big surprise that Simon gets the better of him in the end. Liked that Wanda stuck up for Simon when Rick was ragging on him. Nice to see little tings like Simon getting ready to be gone for an extended period of time. Something else else that always seems to be overlooked...not that it needs to be shown constantly, but every now and then it is nice to see. The Bad - Ricks attitude towards Simon seems a bit misplaced. It's not like he hasn't hung out enough with heroes to know that wonky things happen...especially with the Nega Bands involved. The Ugly - Nothing here. Art is good, Story is sound, if not feeling like a tiny bit of filler, but it is entertaining enough to compensate for that.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Wonder Man #7
Sometimes I go by the old adage that if one hasn't got anything nice to say, one shouldn't say anything.
This is one of those times.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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The Avengers #345 (Operation Galactic Storm Part 5) The Good - Part 5 and our heroes are on their way to try to stop a war. Like any good plotting, the first third is setting everything into place, and getting ready for the second act. The Shi'ar launch a fleet into Earths system and are met by Thor, Sersi, Quasar and Vision. They deal with the threat, but not really in a way that Capt. America likes. The plot moves our heroes into three teams. Earth, one for the Shi'ar, Kree and Earth based teams. Hawkeye get's stuck on the Earth team, but gets hold of the growth formula and becomes Goliath again and get's to go along with the Shi'ar group. The Bad - Not much. The Ugly - Some attitudes flying around, but that's also the sign of great characterization, as not everyone sees eye to eye here.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Iron Man #278 (Operation Galactic Storm #6) The Good - The Kree contingent makes it into Kree space and comes across a vessel. They board and are attacked by Shi'ar soldiers who disintegrate upon defeat. All while Iron Man hacks the system. Shatterax is activated by the Kree and Iron Man fights him, and then surrenders on behalf of the Avengers. The Bad - Kind of stretched out issue of a simple fight and surrender. The Ugly - Iron Man's armor at this point...not a fan.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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Avengers #345
Good observation about proper plotting, Dev.
Now might be the time for me to mention that Fabian Nicieza was an uncredited co-plotter (with Harras and Gruenwald) of the overall OGS arc. And X-Cutioner's Song, the X-Men event from the same year, was mostly Fabian's baby. I don't think it's a coincidence that they're my two favorite events of all time.
Epting's drawings of all the Avengers' faces in rigid panel grids as Captain America puts together the lineups are wonderful.
And Harras really "got" all the characters, even the ones he wasn't writing on a monthly basis. Even John Walker came alive for me here.
Iron Man #278
I liked this issue more than you, Dev. This was the beginning of Len Kaminski's run on Iron Man, which I consider the most underrated Iron Man of all time. Even at this point, I think Kaminski's already showing a knack for tightly plotted hi-tech thrillers. But, like you said in a post above, different strokes.
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Re: The All Avengers Thread
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Re: Plotting - this is a lost art for some event writers today (looking at you Johns). It is very plainly at least a 17/18 issue story (with the one official Cap aftermath issue.) 5 issue in and we have the main plot laid out, the characters heading to their destinations...explaining what the next steps are, and even some new mysteries popping up. Her showing up at the end and talking to Quasar. Totally agree on Harras. He gives them all distinct voices that are true to their characters. His characters are dynamic. Re: Iron Man, it's not a bad issue, just felt a little drawn out to me for what they actually accomplished...
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