Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Personally, I like the Black Widow better than the Wasp, so I'm happy with the movie's roster. And Hank, IMO, has become such an unworkable character that it's probably better he's not in the movie(s) at all.

Secret Avengers #18 was almost as good as the previous issue, and had better art, courtesy of David Aja, who turns in a neo-retro hybrid of Wally Wood and Peter Snejbjerg.

I'm really going to miss Ellis when he's gone from SA. I never thought I'd find myself saying that about Ellis, who I used to hate before I read the best of his WildStorm work.

Ellis will be replaced by Uncanny X-Force writer Rick Remender. I'm not familiar with his work, but I've got the UXF trades on inter-library request based on Cobie's reviews and the additional recommendation of a non-LW friend.

I'm going to miss him too. These have been really great stories and a much needed break from the Bendis Avengers style of story-telling. This could have either been fantastic or awful and luckily it went the former.

Like you though Fanfie, I'm pretty optimistic about Remender coming on. He has all the right qualities for this kind of series.

I'm waiting for the TPB.

Btw, I picked up the Vision Avengers Origin (#2 or one shot)

I quite liked it! Good art, pretty good story, a battle with Ultron, a trite yet satisfying explanation of why he's called the vision. (which goes against canon but it was cute)

... and we got to see lots of the heroic Wasp. I'm hoping she will be featured in many of these since she is currently dead in the MU.

(I just said 'currently dead' as if it's a lunch break.)

Not since Tales to Astonish, IIRC.

Simon Pegg (Scotty in the new Trek reboot, star of Sean of the Dead and various other funny movies) was being floated to be part of a not-entirely-serious Ant-Man movie, but that fell apart (if, indeed, it was ever more than gossip!) because he was too busy with other projects. Presumably the Wasp would have been introduced in that movie as well, setting them both up for an Avengers appearance.

Marvel's kinda scary right now when it comes to their original female characters. Jean Grey's dead again. Scarlet Witch is only now being ressurected, and it's still not clear if she's gonna stick, since a ton of people want her dead. Wasp is dead. That leaves, of the original Marvel femmes, the Invisible Woman.

The Black Widow taking the Wasps place as a founding Avenger, for the movie, mildly annoys me, but it might be amusing if they make a nod to the Russian spy teaming up with Captain America, whom other team-members might expect to have some anachronistic problem with her, only to realize that Russians and Americans were allies, back in Cap's day, and he slept through the entire 'godless communist' Red Scare / Cold War and has no idea why an American wouldn't trust a Russian...

Let's take the Avengers movie discussion over here...

http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=003142

Several posts in this thread, which if you have not been to, you must pay a long visit ASAP have led in a roundabout way to having a new discussion about the Bob Harras/Steve Epting Avengers era in this thread.

This may sounds like a strange comparison coming from me, given my...reservations about Legion 5YL, but I really believe that this era of Avengers is the Marvel equivalent of 5YL. Both dark, complex, and challenging, both met with great hostility and poor sales upon publication, both kept alive in fandom's mass consciousness, despite lack of trades, by a passionately devoted few.

I'm exhilirated that Power Boy has expressed interest in this era. I'm always looking to introduce this era to people who missed it the first time around.

So I'm calling on fans of this era -- myself, Cobie, Dev, Pov, Tempest, Reboot, and Mystery Lad have all expressed positive feelings about this era in this forum in the past, either in this thread or in others -- to stand up and be counted and remind others of why this era is a treasure worth searching for. Now is the time to expand this era's fanbase.

I liked that era very much. I can see your comparison to 5YL in terms of tone and storytelling. There isn't the total separation from what went before happening, though.

I wish they'd release stories from this part of Avengers history in trade, as I'm not sure where my old issues are (my collection's regressed into a mess, I'm afraid) and I'd really like to reread the stories.

You think the Essentials will make it that far? It'd be years though, wouldn't it?

Anyway, readers interested at all should give them a try.

AVENGER'S ACADEMY #22: The X-men guest star. This issue contains some very good scenes between Magneto, Quicksilver and Finesse. Which take unexpected turns that are fun to follow. Emma gets a good line or two. I still miss Veil, and the old setting- but the West Avengers compound is a good substitute.

When asked about arranging meetings between the youngsters of this Academy and Utopia, Cyclops makes one of his more 'endearing' statements about survival and doom and gloom. How moronically short-sighted of him. At least he mentioned the Jean Grey Academy. No doubt there'll be crossovers in the offing. Should be fun.

The new lineup for the official AVENGERS is <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> Captain America, Red Hulk, Protector, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Storm, Spider-Woman, Vision, and Quake (Daisy Johnson(?)). Are Quake's powers as straightforward as her name suggests? I remember her using them, but I don't recall the details. Is she more or less a female Rictor? </span></span>

What do you think? I wish the character contacted here that didn't join, would. Along with a return visit to his former stomping grounds that resulted in a return to the former status quo.

I love when Emma looks at Tigra, in her two piece bikini, and says, "Love the outfit. Don't let anyone tell you it's inappropriate for a teacher."

I'm not sure what I think .... seems like the Avengers were just reformed ... with a big to do ...

They said they were leaving the New Avengers alone but, <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> I think I'd put Ms. Marvel on this team, and since they took Spider Woman ... from New Avengers, I might switch Spidey and Spider Woman since Spidey is more popular for the BIG team.

Also, I think Storm is a great great addition, why she hasn't been before, except in an alternate dimension story is beyond me.

She's great for this big public team, she's now a queen, uber powerful, and since she's still heroic ... she's a great one to be the token mutant. Everybody trusts Storm. </span></span>

I didn't like the character contacteds ... costume ... I prefer the less military more seamless look.

It IS funny how so few of the originals or early era Avengers are still around ....

I would've liked to see an attempt to get some other early Avengers back in the mix. (Starfox, Sersi, She Hulk, Photon, etc.)

I don't know, maybe they are all dead or something ...

I have just returned from the CBS, with a stack of Avengers comics (from Fanfie's list) ...


It's a rainy day and they turned out to be 80 cents each because of a sale!! What else am i gonna do? (well actually I have some work too LOL)

Thank you for chiming in, Todd. Good point about the lack of a gap, I hadn't thought of that.

I know from reading other posts of yours in this forum how much you like Crystal, and I was wondering if you'd care to share some thoughts on her in this thread.

Sadly, I doubt they'll ever be collected, even in the Essentials, for the same reasons 5YL has never been collected -- too much fan hostility, not enough demand.

YAY!

I very much look forward to your thoughts on them.

As for the latest Avengers lineup, I feel nothing but...numb indifference. Bendis has been writing them for what, six years now? No one but Roy Thomas has written the team for that long, and even Roy overstayed his welcome. I think we've seen Bendis' entire bag of tricks, and it's time he stepped aside. Does anyone know how Avengers sales have been over the past year-and-a-half or so?

The remain pretty strong. Maybe a slight dip but basically dominating everything else save this recent DCnU. You'd think Bendis would burn himself out by now.

I've enjoyed his run enough to continue to buy it (and like it), though I wouldn't rank it among my favorite runs of the series. A lot of what fandom complains about is IMO nonsense; however I could use a change of pace on some of his lesser mentioned bad habits such as the roster effectively being the entire MU every six issues (whether Marvel makes it official or not) and his lack of any antagonist with any real depth. (One might argue Norman Osborn but that was Bendis piggy-backing on Ellis' interpretation and even them making him quasi-Lex Luthor).

Time for a change. I'd prefer it to be someone unexpected.

In recent times, Marvel have/are collected/ing the Clone Saga, CapWolf and Spider-Man Chapter One.

If they collected Capwolf, they can collect this Avengers era.

I need to dig my issues out and reread them...plus the appropriate crossover stuff.

I will say that part of my enjoyment of them comes from Dane being my favorite Avenger (except for Hawkeye at times) and his role in these stories. Never enjoyed the book as much once he left.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Daisy has seismic powers, so like a female Rictor. She has a lot of control, though - she was able to induce a vibration in Magneto's head once that KOed him. Not sure if Rictor's that adept.</span></span>

I haven't followed the Avengers religiously, but I did look in on them from time to time, like during Operation Galactic Storm. I think they're like the Justice League, in a way. Membership keeps changing, and sometimes they just have to invent silly reasons for some members not wanting to rejoin/ not being invited to rejoin.

Firebird, for example, once really wanted to get an invite. Where is she now?

Monica Rambeau/Photon once led the Avengers, and during the Kang War IIRC, when her team was trapped by the pyramid thing, her "fantasy" was becoming Avengers chair again. So... why not make a try for it now?

Would be nice to see them again.

I managed to make it through Avengers issues 335, 337, 338,339, and 342.

334 The Collection Obsession Part 2

Starts off very much like the current Avengers series, I have to say, and the art is a bit wonky ... suffering from the anatomically incorrect 90s.

The first few pages had me thinking:

"What did I get myself into ? Those holographic covers of the 90s WERE a sign of bad interiors! I was right to drop comics in 1991! "

But I kept reading.

We've got som log entries int he beginning by some Avengers, they are fighting an alien warrior race called the "Brethren" led by "Thane Ector", his babe "Sybil Dorn" and his fool. They're blue. and seem to be midway to conquering the world.

There is TONS of "Sybil Dorn ... you dare" and "I, Captain America leader of the Avengers a ... blah blah blah organization" tons and tons of characters explaining other characters to us. So even jumping in midstream I was a bit fatigued by it all.

I really appreciate those little bubbles now, that tell us everyone's names and powers. (although we don't seem to get any more, but less story nowadays)

Ok, The Avengers engage: White Vision, Captain America, Sersi, Hercules, Black Widow, and Rage. (there've been worse Avengers teams RIGHT! and weaker ones too.)

They fight, Thane Ector takes them down, Captain America gets to show how valiant he his, Thane Ector falls for Sersi. (as so many have in history)

Thane Ector defeats Cap and the Avengers (which at this moment I was very disbelieving) AND KIDNAPS SERSI. hmmmm
I'm thinking "COME ON" "this is the avengers ... who is this guy."

(wait for it)

The 2nd half of this issue is inked by TOM PALMER .... and he has the magic to spiff up Eptigs panels to make them look Buscema-esque. Not as good but still ... I love Buscema so that's a compliment.

The second story involves the Black Panther, Hank Pym, and Beast, along with Quasar using their considerable brainpower to try to wake the Collector to figure out the mystery and determine a way to defeat the Brethren.

First of all, The Beast comes to life! Best Beast voice in ... like ... forever ... maybe since he was in The New Defenders.

They get the Collector up and running, in a clever way I might add by using the resources of the Titanese Eternals, and he promptly attacks them. A clever battle scene ensues, they take the Collector down through team work ...

later ... it turns out the Collector has captured/collected many whole civilizations and .. the Brethren is one of them, the Brethren have escaped! and are conquering the Earth now.

One of the nice things, since Hank Pym is not so coincidently included, is that the Collector shrinks down his conquered civilizations for storage ... three of the Avengers set off with the Collector to explore this micro verse while Hank stays behind (because at this time he can't shrink).

The Collector promptly leads them into a trap.

END OF THE FIRST ISSUE I READ

and half way through I was like .. "There's a lot of text." "maybe I should get my glasses."

While I wasn't quite sold at this point, I was interested for more, there was enough story in this one issue for a 4 parter by today's standards.

--------------------------------------------------


337

Has one of the best opening scenes i've read in a long time. It's Shakespearean. We've got the Brethren "fool" giving "Thane Ector" a tour of the sewers of Earth.

We're introduced to the dichotomy of the Brethren, Thane Ector is a warrior/leader with designs on glory and raising his species to heights but the fool keeps explaining that they are at home in the muck and myre. and appears to eat sewer. after a several page debate, the fool tempts Thane Ector with sewer water ... and it's cringe worthy .... when Thane Ector finally submits to drinking the sewer water ... with passon!

"What the hell is going on!" After this scene i knew, I'd have to finish this story line. at least.

....

Cut back to the off world team exploring the Collectors minaturized realms to find a weakness for the Brethren.

i missed an issue, they picked up an alien friend, oh yeah AND the Water Uatu has shown up ... "you know you're in trouble when..."

.....

Back at the Ranch:

Crystal appears to have shown up just in time to save everyone's hash.

Crystal says she wants to make up for her past by being an Avenger. As far as I remember her past includes lots of poor boyfriend choices. The Black Knight reminds us that she's a former member of the FF, and an Inhuman royal coming through for them in their hour of need. I'm glad Harras got THAT out of the way, "no flighty melodrama Crystal will be in these books!" he says.

.... cut to Sersi "Imprisoned". I confess, if there was one thing that made my skeptical butt want to revolt and whine ... it was seeing Sersi "imprisoned". Not only is she super super tough BUT she can transmute .... anything ... even PEOPLE.

She gets in a fight with Thane Ector's babe, they fight, and "Sybil Dorn?" ('cause we're still intorducing everyone every time they show up)

And sybly turns into this weird blob, Thane Ector rescues Sersi.

I've almost had it when ... Sersi convinces Thane Ector to tell him the Brethren's secret. They're bonding a bit over both being augmented races by the Celestials when .. Thane admits ... they were not augmented humans BUT augmented Bacteria!

(which may have been more gross in '91, but I don't find it out of the box now, having origins in bacteria is allright with me )

It is an interesting take on a warrior species though, (even today 20 years later) they are 'cleansing' and moving along the decay process by conquering and destroying worlds. That's some sci fi s***.

....

back to hank, beast, quasar, and controller. the Watcher is subtly helping them. They have found the Brethren's homeworld ... and it's devastated.

the alien friend they picked up dies immediately.

I also want to just say, all this story is coming out in a bi-weekly format. Harras is on a two week schedule and the book is crammed FULL of dialogue and plot. with a huge cast of characters, in at least three different venues.

-------------------------------------------------

338 "The True Enemy Revealed"

Beast, Hank, Quasar, and Collector take time to burry their friend they barley knew 'cause they 'respect all life'. (listen up kiddies) and they find an elderly Brethren ...

...

Sybil Dorn, Thane Ectors betrothed is plotting to kill him because he's all hot for Sersi. (who can blame him, she's the Sersi of myth?)

...

ok HUGE FLASHFORWARD.

Beast, and Hank's team are with Captain America's team, and plan to interrogate the Brethren elder to find a weakness to the Brethren.

.....

Thane Ector's fool is up to something, he's been spying. He plans to stop Sybil's coup on Thane Ector.

which is currently ongoing. The fool reveals the Collector is with the Avengers ... the Brethren all go psycho and take off to kill the Collector.

....

Back at the Avengers, someone kills the elder Brethren that the Avengers are interrogating ??? The Brethren invade Earth. Jarvis is scared.

There's a big fight ... and Hercules' dialogue made me rejoice.

"I say thee most assuredly nay, creature of germ and things most foul."

"you are NO warrior."

gotta love Hercules when he's written well.

so, there's a BIG fight, and it turns out ... the Collector is .... super evil ... and kicks Thane Ector's butt. (after pretending to be weak ... that psycho) and he transforms into a much less *photogenic* Collector.

----------------------------------------------------

Issue 339

At this point, I'm like "What the hell is going on, I need to finish this!"

and ... there are some Mcaulley Culkin Home Alone ads in the inside cover.

The Avengers throw down with the new suped up Collector.

He explains, he let the Brethren escape ... to conquer Earth, in order to kill most Earthlings, so that the Collector can kidnapp the remainders for his collection ... and it would make the remaining Earthlings even more valuable.

He's always wanted the Earth apparently.

....

FINALLY. Sersi clocks the *fool* saying she's just been playing them this whole time! "Oh shut up!" "You lived up to your name fool, when you bought my shrinking violet routine!"

yessss. Sersi bring it home!!

...

We get the Collector explaining in detail that the brethren are just evolved bacteria by the Celestials.


(i don't mind, we all gotta evolve from somewhere)

But the proud warrior race of the Brethren don't like being called germs.

The Collector then devolves them all into germs.

The Avengers run around trying to prevent these germs from spreading.

The Vision and Sersi come up with a plan (more complicated than I'm willing to summarize) to use Thane Ector and the Fools telepathic link with the Brethren to .....

fortunately ....

turn into their version fo a frickin UNI MIND. which attacks the Collector ... and

"ARGGHHH" Collector go bye bye.

Sersi summarizes, she dosn't understand how she could've cared for Thane Ector, or that a destructive race could've saved the all.


...

My summary of this story arc is while I wish the art was a bit better, there's enough story in one issue to fill a TPB by todays standards!!

The dialogue is great, (there are clunky parts but Harras is great when he stops introducing and lets his characters speak)

I can *hear* characters like Sersi, Crystal, Hercules, and Beast especially well.

The plots are jammed packed with twists and suspense.

INTENSE!

......

I did read #342 (which is not on fanfie's list) but I did enjoy it enough.

art was ok, cover was amazing, it's a story about the Hate Monger using his powers to cause racial tensions ... the Avengers and the New Warriors get involved.

We find out Rage is 14 and the Avengers know ... and they say it's ok to train him.

We get a message about tolerance, while a bit heavy handed, I'm happy the book at least has a message.


...

This review is soooo long because there is sooooo much to review!!!!

Don't know when I'll get to the next arc, these reviews may take me f o r e v e r.

In a good way.

Peebs, WOW!! Thank you so much for the long and detailed reviews. More, more, more!

I'm a bit short on time right now, but I'll give them a more considered read later, and comment appropriately.

Firebird, as far as I know, has been MIA since Civil War. Shame, I like her.

I like Monica, too, and I agree she needs a second turn at Avengers leadership.

Thanks FL, I thought I would jog people's memories with the script ... plus I think Harras put so much effort into the mystery of the Brethren and how he told that story it was worth reciting.


A couple more things I liked ... in one of the first issues the Avengers discover the Brethren killed some people by removing all of their bacteria, and humans need bacteria and are full of it ... this is a clue as to the nature of the Brethren but also ... I just liked it, I thought it was smart and Harras had researched his story well.

I just started chuckling to myself, about Sersi's "capture" and how I wasn't buying it ... SHE CAN TELEPORT ... lol, so funny I didn't think of that before ... but Harras made it clear she was just using her capture to fish for information and manipulate Thane Ector ... she even "had to pull her punch" when she escaped so she didn't kill the Fool. LOL.

...

I have #348 waiting for me ...

I decided to provide running commentary on each issue that Peebs reviewed.

335

Yes, Epting's Avengers debut was less than stellar, but that was because of abysmal working conditions -- originally Epting was supposed to alternate with Andy Kubert, but then Kubert flaked out or something after he'd drawn part 1, and Epting suddenly had to draw five issues, shipping on a bi-weekly schedule! That's also why Palmer didn't ink the entirety of Part 2.

I agree that Harras really got the Beast's voice. Everybody sounded like a distincitive character, as it should be in a team book but so rarely is.

337

The scene in the sewer is a classic for sure.

Crystal was the one established Marvel character that Harras brought into the book. FYI, Crystal's main source of guilt was her cheating on Pietro, in the Vision & Scarlet Witch maxi-series. Harras did an amazing job of taking a character who had been such an oft-unappealing little princess and evolve her into one of my all-time favorite Avengers.

The origin of the Brethren was pretty wild and ahead of its time.

338

Totally agree on the way Harras writes Hercules. THAT is what Hercules is ALWAYS supposed to sound like, as far as I'm concerned.


339

That scene between Sersi and the fool is IMO where Sersi first comes alive as a character. I didn't like her at all in her pre-Harras, and for that matter, post-Harras, appearances.

Glad you enjoyed the story overall.

And I agree that it packs more stuff into one single issue than most modern stories do in a whole trade.

What comes next is even better, but I think it is necessary to read the whole run chronologically in order to appreciate what Harras achieved.

342

The only reason 341 and 342 weren't on my list was because Harras didn't write this two-parter, Fabian Nicieza did, so even though I think it's a pretty good story, it's not essential other than explaining how Rage left the Avengers and joined the New Warriors.

It seems you liked 342 well enough, so you might as well get 341, too, if only for two scenes: one where Namorita smacks Rage and calls him a "hyper-thyroid side of beef," the other where Falcon gives Rage some words of wisdom (one of my favorite Falcon scenes of all time.)

Take all the time you need. This is a thrill for me, someone sharing their thoughts as they read these beloved stories for the first time.

Okay, grabbed issues 334 - 344 tonight while at the parents. Gonna start reading them this weekend, for the first time in years.

Awesome, Dev. Looking forward to your thoughts.

So the new Avengers line-up. I'm actually quite enthusiastic about it!

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">The best surprise was the return of the Vision! How it happened was a little underwhelming but WHATEVER--he's a favorite and has been sorely missed! Its about time he's become essential to this era, and he is a major powerhouse and distinct voice. I was expecting this but figured Young Avengers would tie it in.

I've been expecting Storm to join the Avengers for years, even pre-Bendis. Lets face it: of all the X-characters, she's the best fit. She's probably Marvel's single best female hero in terms of grandeur, power, leadership, diverse make-up and a host of other things (and please no one even think Carol or She-Hulk can even compare). Most importantly she's been woefully and criminally under-used for 20 years and it's about time he cut from X-land and shined. I was surprised she's still married to T'Challa though--they didnt retcon out that lame stunt?

Speaking of the Black Panther, I love the character and would have enjoyed his rejoining.

Daisy Johnson is another one who obviously Bendis would have join the Avengers before his tenure ended. He's been building to it for years since his Secret War mini. I'm ambivalent--stories depicting her going forward will decide for me if I like her. For those that dont know, she's the daughter of Mr. Hyde.

Perhaps the biggest news is no Wolverine and Spider-Man! Woohoo! Thats huge! About time! Sure, they're still in New Avengers but that's really 'the Defenders' (likely more so than the upcoming Defenders relaunch which unfortunately is written by Matt Fraction).

Now I really hope Bendis can do something with The Protector, who just looks cool in the background most of the time.

My big prediction? Scarlet Witch joins before 2012 is out. </span></span>