Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Btw, wish I had my issue handy to reread with you guys! Perhaps even more fun, I'll sit back and enjoy the hell out of posts!

Well said, Cobie.

Sometimes we just have to relax and look back wistfully.

I'm totally on board with the new member :

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> Storm, being on the Avengers. It looks like the X-Books are getting better BUT I'm happy to have her away from them ... even if she is still in Cyclop's X-Men as the token "good guy". In fact, I was trying to think of what other mutant might join the Avengers and I really couldn't think of one that was popular and a good person. Maybe Kitty or Ice Man. Storm just dosn't fit in with the X-verse anymore. I have been waiting for her to grab the reigns away from Cyclops for years and years ... .... the X writers seem to have forgotten she led the X-Men through some of their worst times and for decades!!! It's actually rather obnoxious how side lined she has been. The only thing I'm a little "eh" about her is her being married to T'Challa and being a queen of a non democratic country. Besides she's always been such a great single female as Dr. Doom and Namor have both tried to woo her. As a longtime X-Men reader I always wanted her to end up with a mellowed out Forge </span></span>

I fear this bodes ill for Jonas at the close of Children's Crusade. As I said before, I want to see them interacting, not swapping...

Is it? Fraction has Strange, Namor & the Surfer (and while Hulk's apparently ruled out by events in his own book, he still appears in #1). And of other ex-mainstays of that book, Valkyrie's in FI: Fearless, and many of the rest - such as Hellcat, Hellstrom & Nighthawk - are MIA.

As of now, what makes NA likely to be more "Defenders" than the actual Defenders book?

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Kitty and Iceman are good examples IMO. How about Rogue? I think she's evolved tremendously during Mike Carey's X-Men Legacy run...PLUS, she was on the cover of Avengers 18 among the possible candidates.</span></span>

I didn't read a ton of Avengers during those days, but I've always been impressed with the raw power of the lady Avengers of that era.

Crystal is no slouch, and many cool characters get by with a quarter of her powers. (Earth - Terra, Elysion, Fire - Human Torch, Sun Boy, etc., etc., Air - Wind-Dancer, Red Tornado, Cyclone, Water - Mera.)

And Sersi? Good grief! I remember during the JLA/Avengers crossover, they kept showing the JLA up against the Avengers, and there were JLA members present who could have wiped out the entire Avengers roster, and, on occasion, *multiple* JLA members that outclassed an entire Avengers lineup.

And then there was a scene were a dozen super-villains flew in all directions, scattered like toys flung by an angry child, and one of the DC characters looked stunned and said, "What was that!?!" and one of the Marvel characters said, "Sersi." That was her only appearance in the crossover, and she didn't even appear on panel, IIRC, but it was cool that a group with people like Superman and Captain Atom and Martian Manhunter on their team was impressed by her.

Of all the Eternals, it helped that Sersi had the most personality. The others often came across as too serious, or too involved in their own drama, while she was more actively integrated into human society, and 'doing her own thing.'

She's particularly intriguing since it's been stated over and over that molecular transmutation is the most difficult of Eternal disciplines and *ridiculously* hard to master, which suggests that she hasn't always been quite the party girl, and has, at some point in her past, quite possibly spent *centuries* locked into a training regimen so intensive and demanding that every other Eternal on the planet has thrown up their hands and said 'screw that.'

Given the nature of her powers (and his, for that matter), I remember that the big showdown between Sersi and Exodus seemed a bit anticlimactic, since neither of them used their signature powers, they just floated above the city chucking energy at each other, which is *neither* of them's actual specialty (although, obviously, neither of them suck at chucking energy around...).

I kinda wish there had been a less unified look in that era. Both Crystal and Sersi are strong personalities, and would have benefitted, I think, from more individual expression and less of the tights-and-jacket uniform look.

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As for the spoiler-y bit, I like that choice. I haven't liked where the character has been for the last few years, and have gotten a little bit more used to the Avengers being a title that has members of other teams (or other traditionally not-Avengers) front and center like the Thing and Wolverine and Spider-Man. (Granted, Wolverine is close to the last X-Men I want to see on the Avengers, since I miss Beast in that role...)

Iceman has always felt like he was wasted in the X-books, and never really found his niche. He could make an interesting Avenger, as well.

Oh, yeah, the Sersi/Exodus fight and the issue it was in marked the low point of that era for sure. Bloodties (the Avengers/X-Men 30th anniversary crossover) was a real lost opportunity overall.

I get so angry at writers who fall back on the "party girl" persona. At least Neil Gaiman set up a potentially good character arc for her in the Eternals mini-series by hinting that she had become AFRAID to be herself and was insisting on hiding behind the party girl facade. But ever since then, the appearances of her's that I've read have portrayed her as a generic super-woman. I skipped Chaos War because I generally don't like Fred Van Lente, so I don't know if she was any closer to herself there.

I didn't miss this- I'm formulating those 'thoughts'.

By the way- in Marvel's Feb. solicits, an upcoming omnibus of The Crossing was listed. Surely, if they'll print *that* (and in an omnibus, no less) they'll print the 300's of The Avengers!! With a movie coming out, and all.

I haven't read a lot of Avengers comics, but in general the Avengers women are certainly something. Crystal, Sersi, Scarlet Witch, She-Hulk, Firestar, Ms. Marvel, Photon... even the less powerful ones have strong personalities, like Tigra, Wasp, Moondragon and Mockingbird.

Moondragon does indeed have a strong personality, but she's definitely not one of the less powerful ones!

A powerful enough telepath to mind control an entire planet and to penetrate the psychic shields of Galactus, she's also a little bit telekinetic, a world class martial artist and scientifically capable enough to give other people super-powers!

There are very few Avengers women I don't love. I even liked Silverclaw (who doesn't seem very popular)! The Dead Avengers mini gave me new respect for Deathcry, as well (and I always liked the short-lived Rita DeMara Yellowjacket).

Mantis? Not so much. I never got Mantis.

Moondragon moves up from "less powerful" to "awesomely powerful"!

Yeah, she's no Sersi, but Moondragon rocks!

Her and Snowbird and Madrox are in a three-way tie for my favorite Marvel characters.

<----- had a big stack of avengers comics to read and review while at moms house for thanksgiving ... And I just found out I left them on my desk at home. 4 hours away!

Okay, read issue 334 (The Collection Obsession Part 1) today.

The good - Man, comics should go back and take note of how to move things along. This would be an issue and three 3 issue mini's nowadays.

We're introduced to all the major players, given the thrust of the story, and left with a surprise ending.

Andy has some good art here throughout, although...more on that later.

The Bad - Nothing much really. There is a little bit of clunky dialog for exposition purposes, but nothing too distracting.

On a personal note, I hate the Watcher when he shows up in stories like this. I do not remember his full role here as it has been a long time since first reading this. He shows up and says how cannot interfere...and yet somehow always manages to do so at some point.

The Ugly - Not to uch here either, just as some of Andy's figures are great, a few are just woof ugly. Sersi's entrance on page 8 is way out of proportion...Liefeldesque in some ways. There are a few panel layouts that leave me scratching my head as well.

Nice review, Dev. Thanks.

IMO, Andy's worst artistic sin is the foreshortening on Thane Ector's arm in one panel. I don't know the exact circumstances of his departure from Avengers, but it appears his heart was just not in this story.

Thank God for Steve Epting.

Yeah, most of the issue is solid work from Andy, there are just a few spots where it looked like he gave up halfway through the panel or something.

Having Steve step in and take over is a good thing to be sure...keeping in mind the shopping schedule and the situation he came into will help with some of the artistic shortcomings of the next few issues. Flipping through the next two, he turned out some impressive work given the circumstances.

One thing, I forgot how much I loved Herc in these stories. He's such an ass at times (pushing Rage with more weight, and then leaving him to flirt with Sersi), but the guy you want backing you up in a fight.

Harras "got" Herc the way that no writer before or after him has.

One of my favorite thing about Harras' Herc was that he genuinely seemed like someone who had been through hell and back (his brutal beating by the Masters of Evil during the Stern/Buscema era) and had learned some lessons.

Avenger #335 (The Collection Obsession Part 2)

Peebs summed up the issue pretty well in his post. Again, the issue moves along at a decent pace. It is split between the Earth bound Avengers Fighting Thane Ector and those on the Moon trying to revive The Collector.

The Good - Good plot movement with both sides of the story, and we're left with some good cliffhangers. Sersi kidnapped, and Cap down...with Rage crying over his body. The Moon Avengers being attacked by a creature that the Collector led them too...possibly by accident, since he is indeed with them and in peril himself.

Also, Herc is a joy to read, and the Beast...as well as the others in the Brain-trust on the moon are written very well. The Beast is especially written with a fun joking personality that he should have imho.

The Bad - The art is a bit uneven, but as Fanfie has pointed out, Steve Epting was thrown a bi-weekly series after Andy Kubert bailed after completing only one issue.

The Ugly - The amazingly ease at which the Vision and Quasar are taken down by their opponents. These are two of the arguably strongest members at this point, and they should not really be taken out that easily. Cap lasts longer against Ector than the Vision.

Yeah, I'd put down Cap's endurance to sheer tenacity and never-say-die, but in the end, it's not convincing, especially as Dev has pointed out that Vision and Quasar didn't last nearly as long as they should have.

A side note: Quasar has always been defeated way too easily throughout his entire existence. It's a shame that he exited Harras' lineup just as Harras was hitting his stride. Can anyone confirm whether Mark Gruenwald ordered Quasar removed from the Avengers so that he could send Quasar on that interminable shark-jumping cosmic quest?

Loving the Harras era anecdotes guys--keep 'em coming!

In the meantime, a little rundown on my feelings regarding all the various Avengers series:

Avengers by Brian Bendis and artist of the month is undergoing yet another line-up so I'll withold any type of grade for it and just say I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes.

New Avengers continues to entertain me and I like the way Bendis writes this line-up of obvious favorites of his combined with all the biggest fan favorites in Marvel history. It's an odd thing--I could easily hate this comic if the stories weren't good but I feel Bendis does his best Avengers work here. Plus, Deodato brings it home each and every issue. The latest Norman Osborn issue where he assembles a plethora of Marvel U villains (yay Monica Rappaccini!) was pretty awesome.

Avengers Academy is a really solid series that never gets any of the hype or praise it deserves. It's also had a slight shuffle in its cast but IMO in a good way (it appears to me that Veil will remain a part of the series albeit not a team member right now). Not only does Gage write the best Hank besides Harras, he writes the best Tigra PERIOD and the best Pietro since...Stan the Man? It's also the best superhero comic starring teeangers around.

Secret Avengers has really been a revelation these last three months. Warren Ellis & friends are proving to me that all that hype about Warren Ellis actually does pan out from time to time. His simply yet brillaint approach to each issue works on every level for me and he has a masterful ability to respectfully showcase each hero every issue. They are competent, intelligent and courageous and Ellis has me rooting for them. Surprisingly, this is my favorite of the four.

The Young Avengers series has its own thread and its probably my favorite of any Avengers related series too.

So all in all, I think the entire Avengers franchise is pretty good across the board with some series actually being truly terrific. Certainly worthy of its place as the top 'franchise' in comics prior to the DCnU--and we'll see if it regains that spot over the next 6 months.

No love for PAD or Harras?

Oh I love them both--in fact, they wrote the definitive Quicksilver after many years before (and since) of Pietro being a character who made no sense or was impossible to relate to. But I think Gage is really doing a fantastic job keeping the tradition going! (And yea, my post devolved into hyperbole...)

Avengers #336 (The Collection Obsession Part 3)

The Good - The plot moves along at a decent pace, although the concept of defeat after defeat of the Avengers against the Brethren forces kid of makes any eventual victory seem unlikely here. The problem with setting up your villains as totally unbeatable, is that when you reveal the way to defeat them...it seems contrived most of the time. I'll save final judgment until I get to that point in our story.

Once again, Harris has a great grasp on most of the characters. His Beast is delightful (top Hank - "Did anyone ever tell you that you have the most heavenly blue eyes?").

Everyone else comes across good as well. It's great to see Dane waltz into the Avengers again...even if he does get taken down rather quickly...although to be fair, so does everyone else.

The Bad - the aforementioned ease that the Avengers get taken out against the Brethren forces. I'm not against my heroes facing near impossible odds, but let them do something constructive and take down at least one of the Brethren on their ow.

The Ugly - Nothing that I can see. Art is very solid throughout, and a huge improvement over last issue. Giving me the impression that this issue was in the bag and Steve had to rush to get the last issue in to Marvel.

I think that applies to a lot of Jim Shooter's Avengers stories (Korvac, Nefaria, Graviton.) Why those are considered by many to be the golden godhead of Avengers stories is beyond me.

I do think Harras pulled it off with The Collection Obsession, but I won't spoil anything.

I also think of most of the Thanos appearances. Wasn't it once said to, or about, him that he was the one allowing the heroes to win...because he really didn't want to.