Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Vision and Vision Jr could be very different.

Vision Jr is based of the destroyed operating system of the old vision but, also some strange future Iron Lad armor, and the brainwaves of a kid that becomes Kang. all makes for the possibilities of a very different vision.

now that i think about it they're not doing enough with the possibilities!! maybe young vision has repulsor rays, is reckless, has a red and gold costume instead of green and gold!

btw, young avengers the childrens crusade was quite cool, im on team wiccan when he says scarlet witch might be innocent.
or it could be more complicated.

It's just that you seemed to suggest it was necessary in the "let the Vision be the Vision again" line

[And I was desperately trying to avoid typing "original Vision", since that's a GA alien who's been turning up in all of Alex Ross' recent Marvel projects.]

Indeed. VSr has four "fathers" - a despotic robot, a hero from the past, a failed businessman and a murdered cop; whereas Jonas has only two-and-a-half - VSr, a future despot, and the despot's idealistic younger self.

When they bring VSr back, I'd like them to take him all the way back to his original conception as an artificial human, not a robot. He should eat and drink (early on, he was knocked out by drugged wine!); if you cut him, he should bleed some sort of sealing resin rather than sparking; and if he exerts he should get tired & need to rest. And contrast that with his "son", who's all shiny, hollow, shapeshifting metal & circuitry.

And VSr should be bitter about his treatment - they could have rebuilt him long ago, they just didn't want to spend the time & money to do so (this after the previous time when they rebuilt him as an albino earless eunich "toaster". The only time they've bothered to fix him after major damage is when he was still technically online enough to supervise the job himself). That's where the "robot rescue" idea came from.

Hell, have Doom rebuild him in passing JUST to distract the Avengers while he does something elsewhere and show how easy it was in the process.

Nah, just stick VSr back in his Steve Epting suit. They're different enough already - more so than most of the New Mutants currently are, for instance.

I love the Steve Epting costume myself and would love to see the Vision come back in it, while the younger Vision could keep his current costume.

The Doom idea is a good one, 'Boot! You should be writing this series!

And I absolutely, totally agree that the Vision (Sr.) should be played as an 'artificial human'. He was always much more than just a robot and it was a shame that somewhere along the way in the late 70's/80's that was forgotten.

As a little update, I also read #2 of Secret Avengers and I continue to be intrigued by this series. It may not have the 'wow' factor of the two Bendis titles, but the writing is very tight by Brubaker and Deodato's artwork is simply stunning. What is a delightful surprise is this series feels a lot less 'spy series' so far and much more pure science-fiction. Bru is able to keep a lot of the same elements of his writing that fit so naturally into the spy genre, but its nice to see him flex his muscles in a good way with sci-fi space drama and with a team setting.

Deodato's rendition of Valkyrie may be enough to restore her popularity once and for all.

Reading Bru write Cap (and Sharon) is just so much fun. This series makes me feel a big 'welcome back Steve!'.

So far the set-up has been a bit slower, and I'm still hoping for more shining moments for most of the team, but it's solid enough to keep me invested. I do hope Bru keeps the respectful powerhouse treatment DnA have established for Nova firmly in place.

Money being what it is...I'll not be following much outside of Thunderbolts right now. This of course being the exception...

http://comics.ign.com/articles/110/1109668p1.html

Ta, but I have a 21CL "miniseries" to finish writing first

Looking forward to it!

I also read Avengers Academy #2 recently and thought it was a solid story and good enough to get me to buy #3. Finese, who had the most screen time in #2 is interesting enough to want me to read more. Her attempted seduction of Hank Pym was a great scene in making her scary to me and also allowing Hank to act in a heroic manner in the way I've wanted him to for a long time. I think Gage gets Hank much more than Slott did (and lets face it, Slott sucked at writing Hank ). Her then immediate switch to Plan B, in getting Quicksilver to help her--now that was fascinating.

Avengers Prime. Wow. I'm a huge Alan Davis fan...my favorite all time artist. Pretty good story by Bendis also. Didn't think he could pull this off.

A-Prime wasn't bad in and of itself... But if the twist ending is to be taken at face value, then the continuity went from bad to horrendous.

loving the new avengers right now.

it's got good guys who fight bad guys.

very low on the i'm evil, emotionally tortured heroes, or used to be evil, or political thriller etc.


but:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">is the ancient one really a match for dr. strange, i mean, by now i'm sure dr. strange has averted way more apocalypse's and fought with other heroes to have a more impressive resume than the ancient one. if it is the ancient one. </span></span>

SECRET AVENGERS- I'm liking this. Though I think putting the team in uniforms other than their own in the first arc is a mistake. Lots of readers from the '90's on might not be familiar with Valkyrie at all. Or get Beast as an Avenger.

Ant-man, in particular, had a good scene, I thought. I wonder what the deal is with Nick Fury. LMD, mark 50321?

This is a title in which ongoing subplots would be welcome. That's sort of been absent from Avengery books lately. Other than ones dealing with Luke Cage and family, anyway.

I wonder who Nova's replacement will be? Who are the likely candidates? I hope Richard Ryder comes back for a more Nova-as-Avenger story or series of stories. But, I'm curious about who will take his place.

Set posted this in the "what did you get this week thread" and I think he sums up the major problem of Avengers Academy. There just isn't enough happening yet from a plot/action perspective on an issue to issue basis. I may be done with this title.

Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the hell out of the two Bendis Avengers titles, which are at the top of my read pile. The main Avengers title is all over the map in terms of the threat they are facing but in a good way. And New Avengers is just a fun solid read with Bendis writing characters he loves. As you'd expect, Bendis loves the Thing and naturally writes him in an awesome way--it made me suddenly wish there was a Marvel-Two-in-One title with the Thing teaming up with someone every month; New Avengers will suffice in capturing that.

(I've not yet caught up on Avengers: Prime or Secret Avengers).

I've made no secret of my loathing for all things Bendis, and yet, for once, I look at a character he has dragged into an Avengers book (Spider-Man, Wolverine, Spider Woman, Luke Cage, Dr. Strange) and, this time, I heartily approve.

Ben is a great choice to be an Avenger, and I am reminded of those behind-the-scenes poker games that used to happen between Ben, Nick Fury, Simon Williams, Steve Rogers and Hank McCoy.

(Sue might have also been an interesting choice.)

As for Avengers Academy, the writer has already spoiled online that at least one of these characters goes on to become a villain. Finesse and, to a lesser extent, Hazmat, are being foreshadowed for this. Veil and, to a lesser extent, Mettle, are being 'pushed' the other way. Veil would therefore be the most shocking choice. Striker would be too easy. Finesse, too predictable. The 'big mystery,' I find not terribly riveting. I don't really care about these kids enough. Three issues of little more than talky-talk, and none of them have 'stuck' yet.

About the only thing that has really stuck out in this last issue is Danny Rand / Iron Fist giving a training lesson and spouting off some eastern philosophy, and the asian student snarking that he wishes he was born asian... (And, the wrap-around-irony that he does indeed know more about eastern philosophy than her, regardless of her heritage, so while she's dissing the white guy for talking the talk, she's hardly walking the walk.)

Thought I'd share a post from another board...


It took Buscema awhile to really "get" THE AVENGERS. His first batch of issues, the characters don't really look or "feel" ("act"?) like themselves. It's nice, but it's as if from one episode of a TV series to another, ALL the actors were recast. Roy wasn't much help, his plotting and dialogue were both of the annoying "fanboy" variety. Roy had the exquisite advantage of LEARNING ON THE JOB. He got better. I'd say the issue that introduced The Vision was when it all finally "clicked". Plus, George Klein (FIRED from DC because Carmine wanted to "weed out the old guys") was one of Buscema's BEST inkers, ever. And Buscema was one of the pencillers Klein's inks meshed with BEST, right up there with Curt Swan!

When I re-read that entire run of AVENGERS, and when I look back on it now, thumbing thru pages, I can't shake that DON HECK-- yes, DON HECK's version of the characters is somehow more the "definitive" one. The problem-- and boy is it a BIG one-- is that the longer he stayed on the book, the WORSE the inks got. Early-on he had Dick Ayers, who wasn't doing him any favors, but then in quick succession you had WALLY WOOD, JOHN ROMITA, and Frank Giacoia. I mean, EVEN Frank Giacoia, teamed with Heck, and the results were GORGEOUS. Wanda NEVER looked so good. Heck (with the right inker) made Wanda look MUCH BETTER than Jack Kirby!!! (Yes, that's what I said.) But when Don started inking himself... AAAUGH! Let me put it this way, when George Roussos is an improvement, you can see how bad the problem was.


Imagine if Heck had stayed on the book, with inkers like GEORGE KLEIN and TOM PALMER. Hell, Buscema could have gotten on X-MEN and tried to make it fly. It AIN'T right to kick a guy off a book he's been on for so long and shove him onto something else, but that's what happened to Don... TWICE. (3 times if you count CAPTAIN MARVEL, and I do.)

Sorry, Prof, but I have to disagree. In my opinion, John Buscema's choreography and sense of dynamics were always far superior to Don Heck's, and I think that Buscema found his footing as early as the second half of the Red Guardian story. Towards the end of Heck's run, his pencils were deteriorating at the same rate at the inks, if not even faster, and even at Heck's peak (the Wood/Romita issues), his layouts and figures were stiff and unimaginative. I think Roy and Stan made the right decision by taking Heck off the book. John Buscema not only defined the look of the Avengers, but also the look of all team books from the late 1960s on.

picked up Avengers Prime, was pretty good, liked the witty banter.

few things i find fault with.

a) Tony's goatee.
b) Enchantress' poses by the brilliant Alan Davis are looking a bit been done before many times by the brilliant Alan Davis ...
<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">c) I don't think Tony would be cringing so much about showing his privates, who cares about vanity when you're gonna get killed by trolls .... and half the women in the marvel universe have seen it already. </span></span>
d) why are Asgardians so week lately in the marvel universe?

but overall great fun. I'm so dying to see WASP, HANK, and even the Hulk!!!!

Well, the "Scared Strait" issues of this comic gave the title a reprieve on it's cancellation. I think it was a great step in the right direction and there is still hope for this comic.

Knowing Hank is ditching the ridiculous 'Wasp' persona to become Giant-Man again is a big bonus for me.

I've got a big "Has Bendis ever read a Thor story, especially from the past ten years? A clue: No." vibe from this series. Amora was last an ALLY of Thor, Hela's been virtually depowered and trapped in Vegas...

Brushing up on all things Avengers:

Avengers Prime
As the series moves on, I'm enjoying this miniseries more and more. Continuity aside (which Bendis possibly addressed with a potential fix in the latest issue involving time travel), this mini has been very well done. Two things specifically are excellent: the incredible Alan Davis, whose work here IMO has the master back to his best work and Brian Bendis' ability to showcase the camaraderie between Cap, Iron Man and Thor return to prominence. He even has both Tony and Cap joking around in a way that feels natural and easy; it's like the Silver Age all over again when both would do that casually from time to time. For the first time, Bendis seems to get Tony & Thor (he's always had a handle on Cap).

Avengers
The main Avengers title is one I'm enjoying as well. While I wouldn't rank it in my top 10 favorite comics, I certainly think it's one of the stronger superhero team comics on the market. The artwork by JR Jr. is top notch and I think is absolutely stunning. The writing is fun and fast-paced, with a hugely grandiose storyline that feels like it absolutely matters to the future of the Marvel Universe. I also like how Bendis has a handle on the Avengers he's chosen to use here: he especially is using Iron Man, Spider-Man and Spider-Woman well; Noh-Var is a welcome addition; his Thor is part of the team but still grandiose; and his Hawkeye is the excellent every-man relatable character he always was.

New Avengers (should really be called Defenders)
New Avengers, out of all of them, is the one that is pure off the wall fun. It's absolutely the Defenders with another name and a tribute to all the team and team-up comic books of the 70's if there ever was one. The storyline is epic, though it involves magic and IMO is a bit hokey. But that's okay because the comic is really about this cast of characters interacting with one another, and I think it works well. Each one has a moment to shine each issue: The Thing, Spidey, Wolverine, Cage & Jessica, Iron Fist, Ms. Marvel, Mockingbird and the three magic users: Strange, Voodoo and Hellstorm. Marvel should be doing something to try and promote this title as something to give to younger readers, because it certainly has that appeal.

Oral History of the Avengers back-ups
I'm still loving these! The 4-5 page text pieces in back of the Bendis Avengers comics are a lot of fun and for Avengers history buffs they are such a cool bonus.

Avengers Academy
I decided to give this title a stay of execution and I'm glad I did. It seems to really be picking up steam as we go and now is hitting a point where the characters are becoming more developed and much more interesting. If anything, it reminds me of the original New Mutants comic. Finese has emerged as my favorite but Hazmat and Veil are a close 2nd. I'm also liking the recent revelation in #5 about one of the boy's motivations for being on the team and what he is willing to do. I fully expect by #12 the team will have changed with 1 or 2 members having moved on to villainhood or at least disgrace. But I'm hoping the others are able to make it. Christos Gage does a good job at making every issue feel like it contains somewhat of a revelation, and I like that feeling. I can't wait to see Hank Pym as Giant-Man and I hope Quicksilver has some more screen time. This is also Mike McKone's best artwork perhaps EVER.

Secret Avengers
I love Brubaker, love Deodato and I love the majority of this team but for whatever reason, I'm feeling like Secret Avengers is the weakest of the bunch. Whereas the "Team Cap" stories in Captain America in recent years IMO were excellent, SA seems to be picking up a few of Bru's bad habits from his Uncanny X-Men run in which it takes him multiple issues to advance the plot even slightly; it's almost like he's overwhelmed by the sheer number of characters. The LMD Nick Fury twist is 'okay' for me but it's not really a plot I'm thrilled about. He's paid tribute to Steranko so much in his Cap run that I feel like by going back to the Steranko run of SHIELD again here he's started to milk it a little too much. In a way Bru owes Steranko quite a lot for his Cap/SA work much like Bendis owes Miller quite a lot for his DD run. But there is a point where it starts to move a bit towards 'too much so' so Bru needs to be careful. The artwork, however, is absolutely incredible on this title. Deodato is just fierce in his composition and character shots these days!

Some stuff:

New Avengers
I really liked the latest issue, #7, of New Avengers which helps establish the status quo for the series after the initial story-arc. It was definitely a welcome slowing down of the pace that focused on character interaction and what the series will be about. Having Squirrel Girl & Wong join Victoria Hand as the supporting cast makes the set-up all the more enjoyable.

I enjoyed a lot of the in-jokes, particularly Nightwind saying "I don't get it; this is clearly the Defenders but you're calling yourselves Avengers?". I also like Dr. Strange permanently becoming a member, making it all the more like the Defenders.

Oral History of the Avengers
I'm loving these still. I hope they go on forever. Bendis really seems to be rereading those old stories and those of us who have read the entire Avengers run are getting a treat.

SPOILERS


whoah lots of well read Avengers fans here. I've never really followed the Avengers ... I've got a bunch of West Coast Avengers by Byrne and The Avengers by Buscema from the 80s. (which is awesome) but I'm a fair weather Avengers fan.


That disclaimer, here's a review of The Avengers #8:


'Return of The Illuminati'
by Bendis and Romita


Medusa is on the cover with 5 other members of the Illuminati, a secret group of super hero manipulators that meet to deal with major evils. so ... on the cover is Medusa (who's husband black Bolt is usually the member of the Illuminati) Dr. Strange, Prof. X, Mr. Fantastic, and Iron Man. No Namor on the cover, seems to be reasonless 'cause he's in the book. (ftw)


Long story short:


the Illuminati are meeting because several of them have secreted the Infinity Gems away and the Hood has punked Mr. Fantastic and Black Bolt, and is now in possession of the gem for power and the gem for reality. (Black Bolt just left the reality gem in the Himalayas when the Inhumans relocated to the Moon. This allowed the Hood (Parker Robbins - former host of Dormamu and later holder of the Norn stones) to easily grab the Power stone from Mr. F, defeating his defenses and the Thing.

Moving on: The Illuminati meet, surprised to see Medusa ... she tells them Black Bolt is dead. Apparently she just found out about this group. Oh and we get to have LockJaw the pet teleporter in this book.

Snarky comments go all around for about 4 to 6 pages. The Iron Man breaks it down that the Red Hulk crashed into Avengers tower EARLIER saying he got beat down by 'a guy' (our latest uber villain Parker Robbins, the Hood)

Apparently, the Red Hulk is stronger than the Hulk. ( I have no idea who the Red Hulk is)

Red Hulk said the guy had one or two gems. So Red Hulk ran to tell the Avengers (not the Illuminati - our pals spidey, spidey woman, thor, steve rodgers, iron man, hawkeye, wolvie, etc.) so of course Iron Man runs away to the Illuminati first thing.

Back to the present, the Illuminati take off to the Himalayas to investigate, they find dead bodies (the Hoods pals whom he killed)

LockJaw is barking .... and here are a lot of Avengers and Steve Rodgers asking 'Tony ... What are you doing?'

so ....................................................................................


The big deal with this issue is the Illuminati, a secret organization of our heroes, who've been meeting - in secret - to be crazy manipulators (yeah ... it's the big thing now ... sleazy heroes). Anyway, now all their friends and colleagues know. They're upset.

Unless page one or two of Issue 9 is a mind wipe by Charles Xavier or a spell by Dr. Strange.


This issue kinda drags if you're caught up on your recent Avengers books. no action besides a flashback to the Red Hulk's beating. lot's of talking ... and half of that is people being catty to one another.

that's about it. John Romita JR. is still kicking butt. IMO his best work since he was doing X-Men in the 80s.

If I gave out stars I'd give this like a 2.5, get it for the art not the story. I'm sure if anything happens in Issue 9 you can just read that first page summary to find out hat happened in this issue.

This issue reminds me of an afternoon soap opera. 1/3 catch up 1/3 new material, 1/3 commercials.

I mean the Red Hulk getting beat down flash back is over 5 pages of no text .... in the middle of the book. Even JR jr is not that good.

I refuse to read any Avengers team that has Wolverine on it.

good luck with that. he's on two Avengers teams now ... that I know of. He's even got several appearances in Young Avengers.

The Avengers #8 was actually very low Wolverine content. only one line, pictured in two panels and the intro page headshot.

AND he's not even on the cover!

maybe it should get another star.

For random review month;

So, three different books with 'Avengers' in the title have made it onto my pull-list, which is a total first for me.

Avengers Academy #7 is *still* not firing on all cylinders. It's been seven months, and the book has some good wit, and some good character moments, but lacks something. The action, such as it is, tends to be particularly meh. (Granted, given a choice between good action and good characterization, I'll take good characterization every time, but is it too much to want both?)

A sharp comment regarding Tigra's toddler;
Hank - "Look at him. You did something amazing!"

Tigra - "No. I procreated. Any idiot can do that. If I raise him to be happy, healthy, responsible, to do good things and live a good life, *then* I'll have accomplished something."

Long term effects of the sort of 'keep them unconscious' technology used on criminals is explored. (The Absorbing Man describes it as being like an endless nightmare where you are struggling to remember who you are, and can't ever wake up, and pleads with Pym to come up with a containment system that doesn't trap him in this waking death.)

Hank changes his codename from The Wasp back to Giant-Man, and, thank Thor, changes that godawful costume he was wearing.

He also gets over his obsession with restoring Jan to life, which this fan, at least, has been expecting ever since he mentioned in the Mighty Avengers that he'd designed 10,000,000 Jocasta's, insinuating that they were functioning as neurons maintaining the brain activity of the 'mostly dead' Janet. He decides that restoring her before he's able to ensure that she isn't traumatized by the process is more important than restoring her *now,* and that he has to stop living for the day she returns, and get on with just living.

All in all, Avengers Academy 7 is a great Hank Pym story, but doesn't really deal much with the kids in the 'Academy.' (Although Veil, suffering the same sort of fate that Jan has suffered, leaving this world behind, is seen in the last scene, possibly questioning if Hank is going to give up on her as well, and let her fade away...)

IMO, it's a stronger Pym story than what we saw in Mighty Avengers, which, for all that I like the character, felt a lot like Gary Stu fanfic, with Hank Pym as the fluffed up centerpiece. (Especially, the whole Scientist Supreme crap.)

Random Avengers review 2.

Avengers: the Children's Crusade is up to #4, and while I love seeing the team again, there's just way too much guest-star going on.

Quicksilver, Magneto, the Scarlet Witch (kinda), Doctor Doom, and now the Avengers (Wonder Man, Wolverine and some other people who don't get to talk much, including Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, Iron Man, Luke Cage and some version of Captain America. I can't even tell anymore, is it Steve? Is it Bucky? Do I care? Not really, I don't think he even got a speaking line.).

Good grief! Speaking of no speaking lines, Vision and Stature get none. Two of the actual Young Avengers, and they get to stand around, and then be seen doing stuff in a fight scene involving Young Avengers, New Avengers, Quicksilver, Magneto, Doom and some Doombots.

Wolverine continues to act like a chode, boasting about how he's gonna kill Wanda, for 'wiping out the mutant race,' which she didn't do. She took away their powers. Some of them died later in various other incidents, but none of that is on Wanda. Wolverine is acting like a mutant without powers is some sort of un-person, and that by depowering people, Wanda pretty much destroyed the only part of them that he considered important, which is pretty damned racist of him.

A surprise appearance by Iron Lad at the end is very welcome, because I've always wanted to see him back (and, frankly, never much cared for this version of the Vision they've had as his replacement), but in this book? Yeesh, he's gonna be competing for face-time with Doctor Doom, Magneto, Quicksilver, Wanda, Wonder Man, an entire team of Avengers, and Wolverine, who will not shut the hell up about wanting to kill Wanda (and Wiccan, just in case he could become a threat, because apparently that's how he rolls these days, killing people who *might* be powerful someday).

I love the team. The art kicks all sorts of ass (much better than Avengers Academy, which is a flat-out better story, and wisely sidelines the characters who are not central to what is going on), and is full of little details, like the swirly fingerprint patterns on Wiccan's headband, or the fancy patterns on the corset Wanda is wearing (before she changes into her wedding dress!).

Yeah. The Scarlet Witch marrying Doctor Doom? Yikes. And I thought the Black Panther / Storm wedding came out of nowhere...

Good luck getting Magneto to give away the bride!