Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Finally, something positive to report:

Essential Avengers Vol. 6 is out this Wednesday, collecting the entire Celestial Madonna Saga as well as crossovers with Captain Marvel (the end of Jim Starlin's first Thanos arc) and the Fantastic Four (the wedding of Crystal and Quicksilver.) Highly recommended to anyone who hasn't read these stories or who needs to replace their old issues.

You know all the hype the Kree-Skrull War gets? I wasn't really impressed that much when I got the treade.

BUT the Celestial Madonna trade? I loved it! I thought it was going to be reversed.

The Celestial Madonna sequence is one of my favorite Avengers story lines of all time. Steve Englehart at his prime.

Me too. It was the coolest thing ever when the Avengers team continued to get slimmer and slimmer and the danger only became greater and greater.

There's so much good about it. I just reread the whole thing less than a year ago.

Jorge, I like the Kree-Skrull War, but I don't deny that the ending falls flat. There's potential there for some really good "What If?" stories and/or fanfics.

HWW, I agree it was Englehart in his prime, and I think Englehart in the 70s is the equivalent of Roger Stern in the 80s, Peter David in the 90s, and Geoff Johns in this decade.

Cobie, good observation about Englehart making the Avengers team shrink as the threat keeps growing; Shooter should have learned something from that, instead of putting together twenty heroes and then using them mostly as cannon fodder.

"good observation about Englehart making the Avengers team shrink as the threat keeps growing; Shooter should have learned something from that, instead of putting together twenty heroes and then using them mostly as cannon fodder."

Didn't he wind up doing that with EVERY character he wrote about?


"I like the Kree-Skrull War, but I don't deny that the ending falls flat. There's potential there for some really good "What If?" stories and/or fanfics."

I've read the entire thing 4 or 5 times over the years, and each time it impresses me LESS. Generally, I feel Neal Adams style is not as suited to superheroes-- particuarly teams-- as one might expect, and the story seems to flounder as lng as it's Earthbound. Plus, Roy Thomas' dialogue is so STIFF!!! It's like watching a bad episode of ST:TNG. The moment they leave Earth and go into space-- YEAH! It finally gets somewhere. Unfortunately, that's when Adams blew a deadline, John Buscema had to fill in, and-- according to interrviews decades after-the-fact-- the storyline was SEVERELY cut short of how it was originally intended.

It seems Neal Adams got pissed at Roy Thomas for having the temerity to have a "fill-in" artist (John Buscema, for cryin' out loud!), even though it was Adams who clearly couldn't handle the deadlines. Had one or the other done the entire story, I'm sure it would have felt better. In the long run, I feel Buscema is a MUCH better storyteller, and much better suited to the book-- a shame Stan the Editor kept yanking him away to do other things!

It's also my understanding that some of the "outer space" epics of the late 80's (90's?) were virtually designed to "make up for" what we didn't get to see way back when.


Meanwhile, I came in on Englehart's run with The Collector issue and the Zodiac, so apart from some early introductory episodes, I pretty much got to experience the "Celestial Madonna" story right as it happened. GIANT-SIZE AVENGERS #2-- full art by Dave Cockrum (!!!) remains my favorite episode of the whole thing. I wish Dave had managed to do full art on both GIANT #3 and 4.

A friend recently forwarded to me an interview Steve Englehart did for THE COMICS JOURNAL about 3 weeks after turning in his novel, following a period where he actually had no intention of ever writing comics again. His view of Marvel & DC around 1981 is disheartening, as it paints a really bleak picture of how bad both companies (especially Marvel) had become since he'd "left comics" some years before. (Of course, there was still a sort of "Golden Age" of independant companies and the Direct Market-- but after too few years, that went to heck as well, thanks to the greed & corruption of "the big two"-- these later events spelled out in another interview I read with Bill Black.)

I'm always defending Shooter. I guess I first started under Stern but Shooter's back issues are the first back issues of Avengers I read.

Shooter made the team pretty small when it was Cap, Thor, Iron Man, and Wasp?

It's been years since I read the Kree-Skrull War, but, as I remember, I liked the ending better than the build-up.

The early issues were all over the place. It started with the Avengers as a quartet (Vision, Wanda, Pietro, and Hawkeye-as-Goliath), then they are unceremoniously dumped in mid story to make room for The Big Three (Thor, Iron Man, and Cap), with a guest-appearance from Ant-Man that slows down the momentum of the story. It was jarring that the focus shifted to a different set of Avengers in the middle of the story.

The ending, however, has them together in an epic battle, and features a surprisingly pivotal role for Rick Jones, the perennial sidekick. It also ends with a mystery of what happened to Goliath to propel us into the next story.

I agree that Buscema was much better suited to the story line (and to the Avengers in general) than Adams. Unfortunately, it was Adams' artwork that drove the prices of those middle issues sky high as collectors items. I had to wait until Marvel published a two-issue KSW reprint in 1984 or so to read the entire story. I was glad I hadn't wasted my money.

In my opinion, Englehart did a much better job than either Thomas or Shooter of working the Avengers' cast into the story lines. This was particularly true during the Zodiac arc, when Cap is absent from the first issue (he was accused of murder and on the run in his own book), but then shows up unexpectedly and triumphantly in the second issue to bail his comrades out of a jam. Englehart also did a much better job of making me care about the characters than most other writers have.

Speaking of Buscema has anyone seen what has happened to the Olympian gods over in the Incredible Hercules?! ugh.

I think of the Olympians I think of Buscema's awesome rendition. Now they went with the typical gods masquerading as humans thing.

That's simply following their status quo from the last Hercules mini.

Yup and I hated it in the last Herc mini as well. It's not like Marvel to follow up on a story like that.

Welcome back, Prof.

And I'm very glad they did that.

But I think it goes further back than the 80s. I'd say the first example would be Avengers # 125, the crossover with Starlin's Captain Marvel where Englehart took a breather from his own plots to set the Avengers against Thanos's space armada. John Buscema inked by Dave Cockrum -- oh, yeah! And Englehart still managed to sneak in some brief but great Wanda/Mantis/Vision moments.

Then there was Avengers Annual # 7, the crossover with Starlin's Warlock. This time Starlin himself did the creative honors, and in the Avengers' second battle with Thanos they actually fight him face to face (and then, off-panel they get defeated and imprisoned between that chapter and the finale in Marvel Two-In-One Annual # 2, but it's still a great story -- and Avengers Annual # 7 stands on its own independent of the rest of Starlin's saga.)

Then came the wretched Korvac Saga, followed by a moratorium on anything cosmic or space operatic (allegedly because Shooter was pissed at the mixed reactions to his story) that lasted until Roger Stern & John Buscema's Nebula Saga. Even with the pestilent presence of the Beyonder -- gotta have that Secret Wars II crossover :rolleyes: -- # 260 is still a terrific space battle issue.

And then, of course, Operation: Galactic Storm, which I've repeatedly sung the praises of in this thread and in other threads. All I can say now is: if anyone reading this hasn't read O: GS, go and buy (or borrow) the trades (two volumes.)

I'm not sure if Harras & Epting's Kree invasion arc qualifies, since it mostly takes place on Earth. Either way, I still think it's a great story.

About Busiek's two dabblings in Avengers space opera, Live Kree Or Die and Maximum Security, I have only one word: BLEAH!

There hasn't been an Avengers space opera since then, but thankfully DC has satisfied that craving in recent years, with Adam Strange, the Rann-Thanagar War, and the Sinestro Corps War.

I, personally, found the battle truncated, and ending it by using Rick as a deus ex machina to render all the aliens immobile felt unsatisfying to me. The stories I named above gave the battle scenes room to breathe and stretch out, IMO.

Yes, but the villains he came up with were not exactly Kang-level threats.

On this we agree. I don't get the appeal of that approach, and I wish it would stop -- I've lost track of how many recent comics have used that particular gimmick. And I think Stern & Buscema's Olympus arc is quite possibly their very best work on Avengers.

You could be right. I had the experience of reading the conclusion (# 97) first. As it featured Buscema art, instead of Adams, it was a lot cheaper than the middle issues. (There's no accounting for taste in pricing back issues!) As a result, I had to accept # 97 on its own terms, instead of as the conclusion to a multi-part story.

I think I was also elated to see the Avengers' complete lineup -- as they should be -- instead of the truncated, depowered unit that dominated Thomas's run.

Thanks for elaborating. I can see where you're coming from better now.

"Unfortunately, it was Adams' artwork that drove the prices of those middle issues sky high as collectors items. I had to wait until Marvel published a two-issue KSW reprint in 1984 or so to read the entire story. I was glad I hadn't wasted my money."

I was lucky on that score. I believe I got all of them from my 1st comics store when they went out of business. It seems it wasn't too much later the 2-issue "Deluxe" reprint came out. Years later, comparing the two, I can attest-- the quality of the line reproduction in the reprint AIN'T what it shoulda been. I'm GLAD I bought those originals!! (I also got the ENTIRE Adams run of X-MEN in the original printing around the same time, in fact I got those issues back to X-MEN #49, the 1st Steranko cover on the series).


"John Buscema inked by Dave Cockrum -- oh, yeah!"

My first exposure to Dave Cockrum (well, that I noticed) was when he inked Buscema-- and then Bob Brown-- on AVENGERS. Mike Esposito was doing 3rd-rate inks around that time, and Dave was several notches up. I remember thinking something like, "Hey, looks like they've got another potential Joe Sinnott here!" Bob Brown had a thing for drawing VERY sexy women, but the only 2 inkers at marvel who really brought out the best in him were Cockrum, and Paul Gulacy (DAREDEVIL #108). I thought AVENGERS #126 has one of the SEXIEST depictions of the Scarlet Witch I'd ever seen! And THEN Dave did full art on GIANT #2... WHOA!!!

I recently got ESSENTIAL AVENGERS Vol.5, and was amazed at how many people Cockrum inked in there, making all of them look fantastic. (Well, except maybe Don Heck-- Dave made Don look bettere than just about anybody else was around that time, but Don's pencils were not what they had been, and I got the feeling Don was actually dragging Dave down right then!) Imagine if George Tuska's IRON MAN issues had gotten inking that good on a regular basis! (Esposito? COLLETTA? Ptui!)


"Then there was Avengers Annual # 7"

AH yes! Starlin had been getting inferior inks for a couple of years at that point... until here, along comes this new guy outta nowhere, JOE RUBINSTEIN. Wow. I've seen so many inkers start out great and the quality of their work goes to hell within a couple years. NOT JOE! 30 YEARS on, I've NEVER seen a single bad ink job from him! How does he do it? (Him and Jerry Ordway are in a special class in that regard...)


"Then came the wretched Korvac Saga, followed by a moratorium on anything cosmic or space operatic (allegedly because Shooter was pissed at the mixed reactions to his story)"

WTF was/is that guy's problem??? Everything centers on what HE thinks is the only one right way to do anything, PERIOD-- "BECAUSE HE SAYS SO!!!"

Hey, maybe the Korvac story would have gone over better if George Perez hadn't been doing 3 or 4 books at the same time and blowing multiple months worth of deadlines on all of them... (heheheh) Dave Wenzel (who I tend to remember for several SOLOMON KANE stories in SAVAGE SWORD OF CONAN) was really in a bad spot-- I don't think it would have mattered what he did, people would have looked down at it in comparison to Perez. Then again, given the "Marvel Method", I suspect Perez was suplying AT LEAST 50% of the story we saw, and without him... well, all you had was Shooter.


"All I can say now is: if anyone reading this hasn't read O: GS, go and buy the trades (two volumes.)"

One of these days...


"About Busiek's two dabblings in Avengers space opera, Live Kree Or Die and Maximum Security, I have only one word: BLEAH!"

AGREED!!! (pulls out a giant gavel and slams it down on the table) "Maximum Security" was one of those stories whose very premise was SO ridiculous, I think it damaged the fabric of the entire Marvel Universe, from a reader's perspective...


"There's no accounting for taste in pricing back issues!"

As I recall, I got AVENGERS #92-100 all at the same time. Those 3 Barry Smith issues were a jarring change! For years, I thought John Buscema's run on the book was a LOT longer than it actually had been. Turns out he kept being yanked away by Stan to do other things, leaving Brother Sal and others to fill the gaps. It's amazing, when I think about it, how, years later (and after years of his going on record as "hating super-heroes"), Buscema came back and did a LONGER and more consistent run-- and had Tom Palmer for pretty much every issue of it! Wow.

Yeah, the reprints do have more than a few hazy spots, but they also have those eyeball-searing neon colors that I love (how I miss Baxter paper.)

It really does lose any sense of direction after Perez leaves, doesn't it? Because of the new Alan Davis ClanDestine mini-series, I recently re-read Davis's JLA: The Nail, and I thought, wow, Davis achieved what Perez reportedly intended with Korvac, to do a story with an entire superhero universe of characters! It actually can be done!!

I'm gonna have to edit that part of my previous post. How could I have forgotten to list other options, like borrowing copies from a friend or from a library?

Fortunately, MS seems to have been quietly erased from continuity, with the Kree back to being themselves.

I think he secretly enjoyed working on Avengers, not just because of the challenge of "blocking" those scenes with so many characters in them, but also because, on many occassions, he happened to be on the book at just the right time, whether it was Roy Thomas coming into his own as a writer, or Roger Stern taking the book (literally and figuratively) into the stratosphere. And Tom Palmer did make that the second run better in so many ways -- I wish he had been available to ink those early Buscema Avengers issues that were ruined by inks from the likes of Bell/Roussos, Colletta, and Tuska. George Klein was every bit Palmer's equal, though; then again, Palmer was a generation younger than Klein and yet was already doing spectacular work less than a year after Klein's passing.

"Davis achieved what Perez reportedly intended with Korvac, to do a story with an entire superhero universe of characters! It actually can be done!!"

I sometimes thing CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was initially concocted just to make up for what happened with the Korvac story. Unfortunately, it caused more problems than it solved... and we're STILL paying for it!!!!!


"George Klein was every bit Palmer's equal, though; then again, Palmer was a generation younger than Klein and yet was already doing spectacular work less than a year after Klein's passing."

George Klein remains, to this day, my favorite inker for Curt Swan, especially on the LEGION. Klein actually inked FF #1 (and possibly part of #2, that bit is still a bit blurry). Reportedly, regular SUPERMAN inker Stan Kaye retired, and Klein took the job for a LOT more money than Stan lee could pay him. Too bad for Marvel! Years later, Carmine Infantino reportedly FIRED Klein as part of a general "weeding out" of the "older" guys in favor of newer, younger hotshots. BASTARD!!! The LEGION dipped in quality right then. Marvel did benefit, no question, though from what I've seen the results were quite variable depending on who Klein was inking. His inks on Gene Colan (on a SUB-MARINER) for instance, looked a bit "rubbery". Over John Buscema, though-- WOW!!!! Perfection. Klein was the epitomy of "CLEAN", while new young hotshop Palmer (who debuted on DR. STRANGE first as penciller, then as inker with the very next issue) was the epitomy of "mood".

I had a "day-glo" poster of DR. STRANGE from that single Palmer-Adkins issue... it's around somewhere.

An awful lot of Palmer's work over the years, I believe, was done over "layouts", so he tended to do a lot more than just "inks". When Buscema left the 2nd time, Palmer stuck around-- and stuck around... and stuck around! He really was to THE AVENGERS what Joe Sinnott was to FANTASTIC FOUR. (Which was a perfect fit, as even from the very beginning, THE AVENGERS' membership was awfully full of themselves, overly-serious and pretentious... heeheehee)

If I remember right, I paid $3.75 for AVENGERS # 97, circa 1980. The Adams and Smith issues were $10 each -- an exhorbitant amount back then. Somewhere along the way, I paid $5 for # 98 (featuring Smith) -- the most I'd ever paid for a comic book then.

As an odd postscript, I picked up # 100 (also Smith) at a convention for only $3.50! Convention prices are often cheaper than those in dealer's stores, but not that much cheaper. I've often wondered if the dealer didn't know the issue's value.

Well, a job's a job. It's a testimony to Buscema's professionalism that he didn't let his personal feelings interfere with the quality of his work.

Let's see, I paid...

92 - $4.00
93 - $20.00
94 - $10.00
95 - $10.00
96 - $15.00
97 - $6.00
98 - $10.00
99 - $10.00
100 - $10.00

Of course, I paid $70.00 for TALES OF SUSPENSE #39... (in the late 70's) but to this day, that's still the most I ever paid for a single comic-book!


"I've often wondered if the dealer didn't know the issue's value."

I felt that way when I got SPECIAL MARVEL EDITION #15 (the debut of Shang-Chi, Master Of Kung Fu) for only .35

Though I always liked Avengers as a kid, I never became a true fan - mostly due to the fact that it was qhite difficult to get German Marvel stuff in the late 70s and after. I waited 20 years to finally read the conclusion to Avengers #69 (Squadron Supreme anyone?). The translations I got were lousy to top things.

So I became a Legion fan - their comics were hard to get as well, but at least their German publisher went broke five years later than their Marvel counterpart, those five years being very critical to my childhood days

Recently, I read the whole Essential Avengers run up to volume 5, and some of the later stuff which is obtainably in TPB format. Like you, the Korvac Saga left me with a huge question mark - never got into the story (though I always love Perez' art) and especially not into the Korvac character. Who was he, when did he become good or bad or good again, well, talk about an anticlimatic storyline. Did Korvac ever reappear?

Much as I hate the character, I have to admit he's got a detailed, well-organized Wikipedia entry which should answer most or all of Chemical King's questions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korvac

I especially like the quote from his creator, the late great Steve Gerber:

LOL

This thread from Paul O\'Brien\'s blog goes wildly off-topic and turns into a discussion of everything that's wrong with Bendis's Avengers. There's a lot of very sharp and very funny criticisms. Now if I could only find a thread that totally trashes Mark Millar, I'd be walking on air.

Stealth, this has little to do with the Avengers, but I know you'll see this

Many people are very displeased with the new status of Spider-Man. I have to say, I've been reading post OMD and am shocked at how much I'm enjoying it. I'm actually loving the new stories, though I hated the actual One More Day story. Why am I posting this here? Well, latest rumor is that Roger Stern may soon become part of the rotating group of writers on Amazing Spider-Man. And oh man, if that's the case, I'll be more thrilled for a Spidey writer since...well, I guess since the last time Stern was writing Spider-Man!

Rich Johnston has this as a green light 'likely' in his weekly column. I recall with some great memory Stern's part in the weekly Superman stories of the 90's (b/t the four books) and the high quality of his issues there, which I believe is some of his best work ever. So this could be great, and could actually bring in some Stern fans to Spidey...

Cobie, that's...well...amazing!

And in the interim, Stern's writing a story for a Hulk special due in May. I posted about it recently in the Giant Size Hulk thread.

I've always felt that the Marvel Universe brings out the best in Stern. Most of Stern's DC work leaves me cold, with two exceptions: his first year or two of Superman, and, more promisingly, his JLA Classified arc which just wrapped up.

Stern is, as I've said before, the one former Avengers writer who I'd like to see do a second run. I see him as being to Avengers what Paul Levitz was to the Legion of Super-Heroes, and Levitz had two runs.

BTW, I know Stern had a run on the Reboot LSH, but I've never read it. Like I said earlier in this post, I don't go out of my way to collect his DC work.

And now for something not that completely different!

MLLASH'S VERY IMPORTANT MOST HAPPY FAVORITE AVENGERS STORIES FROM HIS CHILDHOOD

It's Avengers tales 2 kewl 2 B 4gotten by Kid Mllash now that he's become an adult!

# 1 is a series!

The Mantis/Celestial Madonna Saga

I can remember buying/reading Avengers 129 and Giant-Size A. 2 off the rack, plus the following issues featuring the Mantis saga.

Why is it a happy favorite?

Cockrum artwork, Mantis was cool, I actually enjoyed the soap-operaey aspects of the Swordsman/Mantis/Vision/Scarlet Witch quadrangle.

It was where I first learned that chicks could kick ass (Scarlet Witch takes out Thor in GSA 2). I also learned NEVER to discount ANYone... as Kang finally realized when Swordsman and Hawkeye handed him his ass on a platter.

Then we have the Legion of the Unliving-- umm, how cool was THAT? VERY, to pre-tween MLLASH.

The whole Mantis/Cotati (sp?)/marriage of Mantis to an animated glowing plant as drawn by Don Heck stuff that followed was all a little weird, but this remains one of my earliest and most favorite comic-book memories.

And to li'l MLLASH, Cockrum and Staton's art was the frikkin' shiznit. To this day, Staton's best art in my eyes except for his ALL-STAR COMICS stint. Li'l MLLASH never did warm to Don Heck, although a few years later he learned to appreciate the man's art on TEEN TITANS (mid-late 70s revival).

It should be noted:

I still have the original issues (mostly second time buys 2-decades plus ago from the back-issue bins) but they are near to falling apart, so I purchased the CELESTIAL MADONNA trade that came out a few years ago. I need to re-read it!

more Avengin' MLLASH mem'ries later!