Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

I like Sal's Hulk run too, but I think his best work was his really long stint on Spectaculur Spider-Man. I think Marvel really gave him a tremendous amount of freedom there. I generally still think of SSM as 'the Sal Buscema Spidey book'.

"I feel the opposite way, I think Sal's Hulk is the definitive "Savage Green Hulk" -- he always had a flair for monsters. I also think that his first few years on Hulk rival his early issues of Defenders as his best work."

Well, that's how it goes. My own opinion was formed reading Sal's long run on THE DEFENDERS. When he-- of all people-- replaced Herb Trimpe, I was flabbergasted. When Sal then went on to quite possibly set the all-time record for most issues drawn by anybody of THE HULK... !!! (It was kinda like Ross Andru setting the record for issues of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. Not sure he still holds it. Anybody know?)


"Oh, yes. Sal with Ernie Chan inks...I'm fangirling just thinking about it."

Yeah, late in Wein's run. Ironically, I got those as back-issues. After, there was Alfredo Alcala, Joe Rubinstein (has Joe EVER done a bad book in 30 years??? I haven't seen one!!!), Joe Sinnott, Bob McLeod (!!!), Jack Abel, Mike Esposito (during the brief period when someone got on his case to do better work than he had been doing and stop spending so much time at the race track). But then Sal started inking himself, and by that point, Sal was no longer what he'd been in the late 60's.


"What about his JLA run?"

Would you believe? I've read almost none of his JLA run!


"I've always felt that he...should have stuck to editing in the 1980s"

I felt the same way! Len's run as editor of BATMAN remains, to me, the LAST time I genuinely liked the character. When that BASTARD Denny O'neil took over after the CRISIS, things progressively went to HELL and kept getting worse for the next 20 straight years. (You see the strong, violent feelings that man has inspired in me? GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...)


"And his subsequent editorial stint brings to mind the old saying about seeing in ourselves the things we dislike about others."

WELL SAID!


I actually quit buying THE DEFENDERS for several issues when Gerry, Keith Giffen & Klaus Janson (AUGH!!!) took over. But after Conway left, I gave the book another chance... before long, Janson was replaced by different inkers, and I suddenly noticed that Giffen was actually doing interesting work. (It was interesting to note, after-the-fact, that Conway & Giffen went straight from JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA to DEFENDERS-- each company's "#2" super-team. Too bad they didn't bring Wally Wood with them...!) When Dave Kraft finally took over (seemed he worked with a lot of other writers for the first several months), I was shocked that I began to like the book even MORE than when Steve Gerber & Sal Buscema had been doing it. (Damn shame Keith screwed himself up so much around then.) Kraft & Giffen-- and Kraft & Hannigan-- remain my all-time fave DEFENDERS issues. Too bad it didn't last...

"I generally still think of SSM as 'the Sal Buscema Spidey book'."

Good example of what I was talking about before. Compare Sal & Mike Esposito in the 1st issue (written by Gerry Conway) and the work around #19-22. Mike's inks are MUCH better at that point! I hate when I know someone isn't doing work as good as they're capable of.

Same thing happened on ASM, between the beginning and end of Len's run, Mike went from MURDERING Ross Andru's art to doing really decent work. He slacked off again within 2 years, but for awhile there, I didn't mind seeing his name on books anymore.

Sal did some very sharp and energetic storytelling during that time; unfortunately, J.M. De Matteis' scripts turned me off more often than not.

A good, and reasonably priced, place to start is the Crisis on Multiple Earths Volume 3 trade. It reprints four Bronze Age JLA/JSA team-ups, three of which are written by Len. He brought back the Seven Soldiers of Victory, the Freedom Fighters, and Sandy the Golden Boy.

I can't believe I forgot about that run. Solid scripts by Doug Moench, wonderful art by Don Newton and, later, Tom Mandrake (Gene Colan was past his prime by then, though) I'm gonna have to re-read those issues.

"Gene Colan was past his prime by then, though"

Oh my God! Don't let the fanatics at the Gene Colan yahoo group hear you suggest such a thing!!!



Don Newton remains one of my favorite Bat-artists. In an interview with him printed recently, I was delighted to learn that HIS 2 favorite inkers for his work were also mine-- Dan Adkins and Alfredo Alcala!

Paul Gulacy also made his Bat-debut on a 2-parter during this time. Stunning work. After the CRISIS, Gulacy's occasion Bat-stories were always THE highlight for me, especially the 5-parter "Prey" in LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT #11-15. (A much-later Moench-Gulacy collaboration, "War", I'm afraid was "poisoned" by the mid-90's degenration of the character and the series in general. I was shocked that those 2 guys could work on a story that bad, that lacking in any kind of common sense or rationality.)


While I liked Gene's Bat-work, I was never as thrilled as I'd have liked to be. However, I was happily surprised when Gene wound up doing VASTLY better work years later on other projects, notably THE CURSE OF DRACULA and PREDATOR: HELL AND HOT WATER (both from Dark Horse, both printed from Gene's pencils!!). Gene continues to do commission work, among the most stunning stuff I've ever seen from him. Pretty damn good for a guy who had such serious eye problems...

Batman's in the Avengers now?

Well, why not? Everybody else has been?

LOL

I hope Batman has a secret plan to oust Iron Man.

Oh. My. God.



Bendis does it again!

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">First She-Ultron, now She-Carnage. Is Dave Sim a Bendis fan, and/or vice-versa? </span></span>

Sorry, Frank Cho fans.

Come on, Frank, tell the truth -- you left because you couldn't deny anymore that each of Bendis's scripts was worse than the previous one.

Well, Bendis' Mighty Avengers continues to be awful--complete with Sentry's wife being killed off almost off-handidly with about zero emotional impact to the reader. Black Widow stands around yelling at people but essentially doing nothing. Ares yells a lot. Hank Pym does something great for once, but Bendis continues to try and convince us that everyone hates him (and fails).

On the other hand, New Avengers has moments where I can really get into it. Obviously, b/c Bendis loves these characters more and is better at 'street-level' types of stories. I like the Hood and I like what Bendis is trying to do there. I also like the Dr. Strange/Night Nurse romance.

Some people may be angry at Tigra's beat-down though, and I'll be able to see where they're coming from. My biggest complaints about Bendis here are (1) he's making Luke too much of a 'Mary Sue' at times and it could end up giving Luke the 'Wolverine Effect' (re: readers will hate him because Bendis tells us to love him so much) and (2) editorial mistakes, which are rampant at both Marvel and DC are distracting (the Griffin was killed by Scourge, etc.). I am glad he's doing something with some of those villains, but I'd like him to treat most of them with some respect (still too early to tell if he is).

Huh, I like Bagley's art there. Not enough to buy something written by the BiMBo, but still.

As noted by a poster on that other forum, he does have a fondness with making all of the big bad villains evil wimmin. I also wonder what Bendis' Dr. Doom will look like with bosums.

As long as he doesn't introduce a female Kingpin (Queenpin?), I suppose...

I agree with Cobalt. What has Black Widow done? Pose? I can't explain the ways I hate the Sentry. They have no idea what to do with him yet they keep him around.

I agree about Luke being overused by Bendis. Suddenly he's the leader. Problem I have with that is Luke has never really been a leader (Iron Fist neither).

I do like the Hood stuff but I don't care for the Tigra beatdown.

And I don't hate Hank Pym at all. I love HANK. I hate Yellowjacket.

Interesting choice of 'big bad.' The Hood.

I guess the Fabulous Frog-Man was busy and Batroc ze Leaper was too top-tier to be a Bendis Avengers villain.

I heard he wanted to use Ace but Tom Brevoort objected (finally).

love the Marvel Universe Appendix.

I've seen posts on other forums where even Bendis fans are saying that Mighty Avengers is crap!

Tigra's beatdown didn't bother me as much as Wolverine having his privates shot off. it just seemed... gratuitous.

My only problem with the Tigra beatdown though was that Tigra should've been able to put up a better fight.

That's my problem with the fight DrakeB3004. Tigra is always shown as a pushover. I think she can give Spidey & even Wolverine a tough time. The Hood? eh.

So I haven't read it but the Illuminati #5 has a big reveal. eh.

Stealth, I think the Marvel Universe Appendix is the coolest comic site around! I don't count messageboards/forums like this one...which would be #1

Jorge, have you read any of the Marvel Legacy specials, covering the obscure and the (sometimes understandably) forgotten of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s?

If you missed them, like I did, there's good news: all four of them are now collected in a trade, which I bought today and have been enjoying tremendously. There's some overlap with the Appendix, but there's a lot of stuff that even the Appendix doesn't have.

This quote from Jorge in the Last Defenders thread lit up a light bulb in my mind:

This skill, of course, was most notably demonstrated in the pages of Avengers by Roger Stern, especially in Stern's last 30 issues.

And so, while I don't have much interest in Last Defenders, that mini-series could be seen as a testing ground for how Casey might write the Avengers in the present day, something which many people have been calling for ever since the first Earths Mightiest Heroes mini-series three years ago.

Now, personally, I think Casey is an overrated writer with an obnoxious public persona and a gooey nostalgia streak where the Avengers are concerned. BUT...I would be willing to give him a fair chance to see if he might surprise me and turn out to be the next Roger Stern.

So my question is, do people think Casey has the right stuff? And once Last Defenders is over sometime next year I would ask that question again.

I've never read anything by him that I've enjoyed. But I actively stopped buying his stuff after the first few times, including his X-Men run.

Sorry Stealth didn't see this. I've heard of it but I haven't read them. I will get the trade thanks!

So Stealth are the Last Defenders progressive enough for you?! Blah! Progressive isn't always a good thing!

Hope you enjoy the trade.

Despite the lame lineup and my other misgivings, I will be browsing through Last Defenders at the store without buying it.

Amid rumors that Mighty Avengers will be cancelled later this year* after the Skrull mega-crossover foolishness is over, that book has gotten a "permanent" artist. Fresh from nearly ruining Peter David's mutant terrorists arc in X-Factor, put your hands together for... Khoi Pham!


* file under "There Is a God!"