Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

"The thing here is when the comic inevitably comes out with the retcon that Professor X was always an evil manipulative prick (a la the new version of the Doom Patrol's Chief)"

I'm SURE Arnold Drake would not have appreciated that...


"the story demanded that Cyclops retain his trademark glasses and Rogue have something emo to whine about"

I just call it, "BAD WRITING".


"Quesada has stated openly that he wants to kill off Mary-Jane and return Spider-Man to being an unmarried geeky no-luck-but-bad-luck sort of fellow, that he feels Spidey being married somehow detracts from the character."

They ALREADY killed off Mary Jane (when John Byrne was doing the book-- or should I say SCREWING OVER the book?). That's why I not only stopped reading it, I swore off EVER reading it again, no matter what they did or who they got to do it. Enough was enough.


"If they'd been in charge at the beginning...Gwen Stacy never would have died"

We can blame JOHN ROMITA (and by extension, his hero Milton Caniff) for that bit. If not for that, Pete & GWEN might have been married since the early 70s, as-- possibly-- Stan Lee intended when he shoved MJ aside in favor of Gwen for ALL those issues in the first place.


"the Silver Surfer would still be trapped on Earth"

We can thank Stan Lee for all the YEARS he was trapped on Earth. There's a reason I like Steve Englehart's writing as much as I do...!


"the title of the comic seems slightly ‘meh’"

That's nothing. You should read (OR MAYBE NOT!!!) the 12-issue VISION AND SCARLET WITCH series Englehart did. AWFUL!!!!!


"Actually, if there was a creative vision at all, it seemed to be Jim Shooter’s idea of the Big Bang: expand as rapidly as possible in as many directions as possible. The end result was a watered-down line of comics without any real thought as to what made each title unique."

Well put. It could be directly connected with something Bill Black of AC Comics described. After the "direct" market became such a success for so many smaller companies, the "big 2" decided to barge their way in. Result? Stores happily buying everything they possibly could from "the big 2", and not having any money left to order books from EVERYBODY ELSE. The people who made the "direct" market a success got screwed over by the unrelenting GREED of the bigger companies. they don't want competition, they don't want free enterprise, they want it ALL. To me, that's not "business"-- that lack of morality.


"bad things seemed to happen just because they were bad things"

In the wake of Frank Miller's 2nd DD run, it seemed like everybody was trying to follow his "example". Like-- "Hey-- WE can do something like THAT!"

WCA

I loved this book. So many character moments/arcs. Hawkeye as leader, Bobbi killing the Phantom Rider, Wonder Man's confidence, the competitive sparring between Iron Man and Wonder Man, Firebird(!), Tigra's mission to kill Master Panda! and most importantly DR. PYM!!!

While Stern/Buscema were on Avengers I did feel like this was the more "fun" book. It seemed like "Avengers On Vacation". They were in Hollywood and characters like Wonder Man and Tigra were living it up. From Wonder Man's horrible costume to his black/red costume.

Most importantly Steve Engleheart knew how to fix HANK PYM. Not Ant-Man, Yellow Jacket, Goliath or Giant-Man. No, he fixed Hank. He didn't try to figure out a way to bring YJ back. I can go on and on about Hank but I still cringe seeing him in the YJ costume. I loved how they used him in BEYOND! As Dr. Pym scientific adventurer.

Marvel characters are known for their weaknesses. Let Hank live with his. I prefer him not changing size unless a dire emergency.

AWC? Hey, I liked it. I guess as a kid I always thought Vision/Scarlet Witch as a mutant with a toaster.

A clarification:

Mockingbird didn't kill the Phantom Rider. He was hanging on the edge of a cliff; she saw the situation, chose not to help him, and walked away. Eventually he lost his grip (on the cliff; his grip on reality was slipping well before that) and fell to his death. Neither Hawkeye nor the ghost of the Rider appreciated the distinction.

I'm SURE Dick Ayers would not have appreciated that...

Welcome to The All Avengers Thread, Pariscub. Thanks for posting your thoughts on the current Avengers. I hope we soon see your thoughts on the previous eras of the Avengers.

There was only one Avengers/AWC writer at that time, and his name was...John Byrne. LOL

For one thing, I find Tigra creepy because I've always had a particular fear of werewolves (and were-cats and other such derivatives.)

For another, I haven't read either of the Tigra appearances you mention. In the few that I have read, she always comes across to me as being an obnoxious hussy.

I still haven't read that story, because the words "Writer: Mark Gruenwald" are an instant turn-off to me. I still might give it a chance someday, if I find it in the quarter bin.

For me, it's the only incarnation of Guy Gardner that I've ever liked.

Have you read Roger Stern's WCA mini-series? I think Stern was the only one who understood her.

And I can't honestly say whether I'd recommend giving the Englehart issues a chance; they're definitely an acquired taste. The Byrne ones, of course, I haven't read and never will.

Heh. I can't wait to snark on those books later this month.

Once again, I find your point to be thoughtful and very well made, even though I disagree with it. Since getting back into comics a couple years ago, I've had to admit to myself that I don't want to see any true-to-life horrors visited upon these fictional characters I love. If the subject had come up back in the early-mid nineties, I probably would have argued otherwise, but today, I'm a different person, and it seems that I what I want out of comics is pure escapism.

Now this I find particularly fascinating, since I feel the exact opposite: I've always seen the plainclothes identity as going into the closet, and the costumed identity as coming out of the closet.

Oh, he made me sick! I see him as Roy Thomas' attempt to give Marvel their own version of Vibe, who was created by Thomas' buddy Gerry Conway.

I disagree; it has its flaws, but I think it was an admirable attempt at portraying a superhero couple as domesticated adults. Plus, it had the Scarlet Witch making a "F*** you" gesture at Gyrich. Truly, nobody ever wrote Wanda better than Englehart IMO.

And many people obviously felt the same way, since Englehart's WCA run actually outsold Stern & Buscema's Avengers run. I just find it very off-putting the way that the tone of WCA would suddenly shift from light-hearted fun to demons and rapists. It may be argued that such a tone is more true-to-life, which, as I've said before, is exactly what I don't want in a superhero comic. The only comic book writer who can make that kind of tone work for me is Peter David. I don't know why, he just makes it work for me.

Thanks for clarifying that, BRM. I agree with Hawkeye: there's not much distinction. (The opinion of a rapist's ghost doesn't matter much to me.) But it's good to know what actually happened.

"Once again, I find your point to be thoughtful and very well made, even though I disagree with it. Since getting back into comics a couple years ago, I've had to admit to myself that I don't want to see any true-to-life horrors visited upon these fictional characters I love. If the subject had come up back in the early-mid nineties, I probably would have argued otherwise, but today, I'm a different person, and it seems that I what I want out of comics is pure escapism."

Thanks for the compliment, Stealth. I understand and respect your position. In many ways, I'm a different person, too, than I was when I first read these stories. Even then, though, I liked my heroes to be human: with all the failings and temptations that go with that. It makes their attempts to accomplish good even more heroic, in my eyes.

But 20 years and two English degrees later have given me a greater appreciation for the literary potential of comics, and for any type of story that tries to say something. Such stories require active participation from the reader: analyzing, interpreting, and reflecting. They challenge us to examine our own attitudes and experiences. To me, the best stories are those that sneak in such challenges while "pretending" to be escapism. (I think that's what lured me into comics in the first place. )

"For another, I haven't read either of the Tigra appearances you mention. In the few that I have read, she always comes across to me as being an obnoxious hussy."

In Roy's FF, she kept flirting with Ben. It was hilarious! "Will you knock it off? I already GOT a girl!"


"I still haven't read that story, because the words "Writer: Mark Gruenwald" are an instant turn-off to me."

I think my first exposure to Gruenwald was on SPIDER-WOMAN, when he took over from Marv Wolfman (who had been surprisingly good) and improved the book. But he left soon after, allowing Mike Fleisher to MURDER the book. Oy. In later years, I found his letter-page editorials overbearing and condescending. And then he fired Roger Stern... (GRRRRRR.) Some people should never get promoted above their best position. They should just get more money to stay where they're at, and continue to do what they do best. If I ran a corporation, that's what I'd do...


"For me, it's the only incarnation of Guy Gardner that I've ever liked."

There was one issue recently where Patrick Gleason drew half the pages, and Dave Gibbons drew the other half-- the Guy pages. LOVED it! Some writers really are MUCH better when they draw their own stories. Gleason is an amazing "illustrator"-- but half the time, I have trouble following what the HELL is going on. Never with Gibbons' art. Loved his stuff ever since the Tom Baker DOCTOR WHO strips.


"I remember reading the Mockingbird death issue, but at the time, I hardly knew who she was (I didn’t read her stories until a few years after I read her death)."

I first ran across Bobbi Morse in KA-ZAR #3-5. I also read her solo story in MARVEL SUPER ACTION #1, the B&W anthology that starred The Punisher, Dominic Fortune, and "The Huntress" (Bobbi). MSA was cancelled before it even hit the printers, becoming a one-shot, so Bobbi's series never went past the 1st episode. That was where, if memory serves, the long-long-running "SHIELD is getting corrupt" storyline got its start. Not a good point to reccomend it, is it? Then she turned up in MARVEL TEAM-UP (I think) as "Mockingbird", I think, accused of being a double-agent (by the agents who really were double-agents). Or something...


"Once again, I find your point to be thoughtful and very well made, even though I disagree with it. Since getting back into comics a couple years ago, I've had to admit to myself that I don't want to see any true-to-life horrors visited upon these fictional characters I love. If the subject had come up back in the early-mid nineties, I probably would have argued otherwise, but today, I'm a different person, and it seems that I what I want out of comics is pure escapism."

WELL PUT! I'm tired of the "characters MUST be put thru hell" mindset of writers. To me, a traumatic "origin" story ought be hell enough for anyone's lifetime. (Example: Pete lost Uncle Ben. He did NOT lose Aunt May. THERE WAS NO F***ING REASON to lose Captain Stacy, G** D*** it!!! Never mind Gwen!) Put another way: UP YOURS, Frank Miller! (And that goes DOUBLE for Denny O'Neil...)

I noticed around the early 90's that my taste in "entertainment" was changing. I'd had enough of terribly violent or downbeat stuff. I think it was because my own life had been so stressful for so long, I just wanted my "entertainment" to actually be "entertaining". (Example: when it comes to Frank Cho, you can keep SHANNA THE SHE-DEVIL. Give me LIBERTY MEADOWS!!)

When "IDENTITY CRISIS" came out, a friend and fellow writer asked me, "Would YOU ever write a story like that?" I told him I already had... the difference being, I didn't actually KILL my hero's girlfriend. More recently, I didn't actually RAPE her, either! But I DID have the guys who TRIED disembowelled... (HEY! They ASKED for it!!!!!)




"Oh, he made me sick! I see him as Roy Thomas' attempt to give Marvel their own version of Vibe, who was created by Thomas' buddy Gerry Conway."

"'EY, man! You got new CHOOS?"

"WELL PUT! I'm tired of the "characters MUST be put thru hell" mindset of writers. To me, a traumatic "origin" story ought be hell enough for anyone's lifetime. (Example: Pete lost Uncle Ben. He did NOT lose Aunt May. THERE WAS NO F***ING REASON to lose Captain Stacy, G** D*** it!!! Never mind Gwen!) Put another way: UP YOURS, Frank Miller! (And that goes DOUBLE for Denny O'Neil...)"

Well, if the characters aren't put through hell from time to time, there's not much dramatic tension, is there? They have to face some kind of problem, and the problem better be consequential (i.e., something bad will happen if they don't accomplish their goals).

This isn't to say that every character's wife has to be raped or every character's friends have to be murdered. But those ideas can be used to make a point about something, as I suggested in the Mockingbird story, above.

These ideas can and have been overdone. They have also been done for the wrong reasons, such as shock value or to portray an overly cynical view of the world. (I never read Identity Crisis, and I came into Spider-Man after the Staceys' deaths, so I can't say whether they fit this description.) But if writers completely avoided these topics, it would set our heroes in an unrealistic world where nothing truly "bad" ever touches them.

This, unfortunately, is what has mostly happened at Marvel and DC: Even characters who die come back with alarming regularity. (Does anybody think Cap is dead for good?) And this is one reason, along with escalating prices, why I've lost interest in super-hero comics today. If heroes have nothing to lose, they go through mindless and repetetive motions in stories that don't really matter.

I miss Mockingbird. Hopefully Superboy Prime's will punch Bendis and she will return to a happy purple Hawkeye.

I never read the story of her death, but I was disappointed when I found out that she had been killed off. It seems as if death is too easy a solution in comics these days, and too cheap, as I mentioned above.

I didn't care for Roy Thomas' WCA at all. Ok, some issues were OK but...eh.

See, I never would have known that, because the artwork was so atrocious on the main Avengers title during those arcs that I didn't realize Byrne was writing for some other artist! I'm used to Byrne stories being illustrated by him.

Characters like Sersi and the Black Knight would have probably appealed to me more if Byrne had actually drawn them, since I am shallow that way.

"I'm used to Byrne stories being illustrated by him."

There was a period in the mid-late 80's where a lot of artists-turned writer/artists decided they were tired of drawing... and wanted to "just" write. In almost every case, it was a disaster, because, for the most part, whatever "magic" they brought to their work was completely MISSING when someone else would do the drawing.

Among the "writers": John Byrne, Jim Starlin, Mike Grell, Frank Miller... (well, in Miller's case, his art got so sketchy after awhile, getting a "real" illustrator onboard was a major upgrade)


Now, when Keith Giffen did it, he kept doing layouts. In his case, it was in many ways a HUGE IMPROVEMENT to have guys like Kevin Maguire, Ty Templeton & Adam Hughes (!!!!!) drawing Keith's stories. It was only when he then decided to pencil LEGION while he was writing it solo that things turned (there's no other way to say this) "UGLY". (An' ah means... UGH- LEE!!!) If they'd has a Dave Gibbons, Chris Sprouse or Stuart Immonen drawing those stories.. I feel SURE I wouldn't have gottern sick looking at the book for 3 whole years running.

Alan Grant is, IMO, the master at that kind of story. I wish Marvel hadn't treated him so badly and alienated him, because I would have loved it if he'd written Avengers.

As an editor, he helped make possible such great stories as Walt Simonson's Surtur Saga in Thor, Layton & Michelinie's Armor Wars in Iron Man, and Roger Stern's Nebula Saga, Under Siege (Masters of Evil), and Assault on Olympus in Avengers. But as a writer, he made me cringe with his dialogue (especially when the characters would call each other things like "Klausy" or "Cutsy") and frustrated me with his inability to make promising characters and concepts live up to their potential, not to mention his weaknesses at plot, pace, tone, and structure.

And then he punches Bendis again, and the Scarlet Witch who turned evil is revealed as an impostor, while the real Scarlet Witch emerges from captivity.

Byrne was no longer writing the book when the Black Knight entered the picture.

I, on the other hand, would still have refused the read those stories even if my favorite artists had drawn them. The one issue of Giffen LSH that I read was the Profem issue (and only because Colleen Doran and Curt Swan drew it), and I found it to be one of the most ignorant, reactionary, and depressing things I had ever read.

"But as a writer, he made me cringe with his dialogue (especially when the characters would call each other things like "Klausy" or "Cutsy") and frustrated me with his inability to make promising characters and concepts live up to their potential, not to mention his weaknesses at plot, pace, tone, and structure."

It suddenly strikes me that, apart from SPIDER-WOMAN (which I enjoyed), I don't really remember much of Gruenwald's writing. He did that SQUADRON SUPREME maxi-series, didn't he? I remember that... barely. what I remember was 3rd-rate art & an interminable, unenjoyable storyline. Maybe he was better off as an arrogant S.O.B. of an editor... ?


"I, on the other hand, would still have refused the read those stories even if my favorite artists had drawn them. The one issue of Giffen LSH that I read was the Profem issue (and only because Colleen Doran and Curt Swan drew it), and I found it to be one of the most ignorant, reactionary, and depressing things I had ever read."

Good grief! What a CON-JOB!!! 2/1-2/ years of art that looks like it was C****** onto ther paper rather than drawn, no wonder you picked up an issue that looked like it was done by professionals instead. I forghet who actually wrote that book (I could look it up, but the thought alone is bad enough), but I don't think it was Keith Giffen. It weas an insult all-round in any case.

I've often tried pointing out to a friend of mine (who LIKES that run) that the whole "Legion has retired / Earth is secretly controlled by the Dominators / the whole future has gone completely to hell" thing was utterly, completely wrong-headed. It was was Keith Giffen does "best" (he said, sarcastically)-- turning a series UPSIDE DOWN and doing it bass-ackwards, just to see what the results might be (and with no thought or care to the possible HORRIBLE long-standing results, which there have been in every single case).

It might have worked as an experiment, IF they'd had "real" illustrators and storytellers doing it. Keith, who proved his best talent was co-plotting & page layouts (NOT pencils) could have pulled it off, with the right "help"-- and if there hadn't been CONTINUAL, NON-STOP editorial interfence AND incompetence. (The "new" Legion's 1st editor was FIRED off the book only a few months in, for heaven's sake!!! That never happened when Karen Berger was on watch.)

I know, I know... some people LOVE that run. Doesn't change how I feel. The CRISIS may have hurt the Legion... but what happened after Levitz & Berger left RUINED it for the next 20 years. That and the blind, narrow-minded REFUSAL by the "powers-that-be" to admit their mistake, and "simply" GO BACK to doing the book the way it should have been in the first place (as it was up until the CRISIS).

Yep. It's got a lot of fans, but I'm not one of them.

It was co-written by Giffen with Tom and Mary Bierbaum. Giffen's original idea had been for Shvaughn to be killed instead of Blok, but the Bierbaums sold him on the Profem idea. I have a transsexual friend who hates that story even more than I do.

I like the TMK run, but I personally dislike that story greatly too.

To echo earlier comments in this thread, I also find the current Guy Gardner at DC to be the best he's ever been written. He's opinionated and he's a jerk sometimes, but he's heroic and the kind of person you want watching your back. Not the easiest person to become friends with, but once your friend, he's there for you no matter what, and tells it like it is to your face. In my experience, those are often the best friends you could wish for.

In regards to Avengers (and because I like keeping this thread going), I notice we’ve talked at length about a whole bunch of Avengers, particularly Hank and Wanda. One Avenger who I’ve been thinking about lately is Pietro. I feel that over the years a lot of stupid things have happened to him (by writers), but overall from a ‘larger picture’ perspective, he’s one of the few Marvel heroes whose personality has remained relatively the same, or at least grown in ways that seem natural to the character and enhance both his flaws and his highpoints. In fact, I’d say that Pietro was never one of my favorites until recent years, when I had the chance to reread the Avengers runs, as well as his X-Factor appearances.

First, I kind of like that he’s been everywhere in the MU: enemy of the X-Men, Avenger, supporting character to FF & Inhumans, part of X-Factor, Knight of Wundagore and even now. I’m not saying I didn’t like all those things at the time (I mean, his solo series as a Knight of Wundagore was tough to take at times), but I enjoy that aspect of him too. And I don’t necessarily love the character in that I would like him if he were real per se—I like the character because he’s so distanced at times, and such a jerk to people for little reason. It really makes him stand out, as arrogant and infuriating, while at the same time confident and (usually) heroic. Lately…he’s gone in a different direction. Though I hate to see the loyalty to his friends be replaced by loyalty to his father’s ideal of the ‘mutant race’, I do think its being handled good. I think his story is far from over and that comforts me in enjoying the ride for him. Some other things about him as fast opinions: (1) I do not think he should be with Crystal AT ALL, but I do like his having a previous marriage to her as part of his story, (2) I love Luna and think it humanizes him in a different way, (3) I generally prefer when he and Wanda are in separate comic books, (4) Love the idea that Magneto is his father and think it worked phenomenally well in terms of making complete sense, (5) Bova is awesome and anyone who thinks otherwise should be shot into the sun, and (6) I like his costume in shades of blue rather than green.

Fave Pietro issues: Silver Age Spider-Man appearance, guest-shot in Byrne’s FF, Silver Age X-Men/Avengers crossover, when he insulted the Vision and pissed off all Avengers fans, X-Factor (1st and 2nd runs) and especially Harras’ Avengers run. Great, great character—what, in the classic sense of the phrase, is a true ‘Marvel character’.

Pietro makes an interesting character study for all the reasons you cite, Cobie. A victim of prejudice himself, he nevertheless was prejudiced toward the Vision and disowned his own sister when she fell in love with the android.

Pietro had a long and distinguished career as an Avenger, but he was also arrogant and very selfish. He gave up his heroic career to marry Crystal and live with the Inhumans -- and I largely lost track of him until the Son of M mini-series last year. After losing his powers, he tried to kill himself, was rescued by Spider-Man and given a what-for for his role in rewriting history, via the Scarlet Witch. (At least this is how I remember it; I didn't read the mini-series that preceded it.) In a way, his negative and self-important attitudes came back to bite him on the a$$.

The mini-series then became confusing, with Pietro journeying back and forth in time and running off with Luna, and then Luna becoming the focus of the story (which then left the door open for some other story line!). So, Pietro never learned the lessons I thought he was going to learn, and never grew as a character. But the potential is still there for his story to reach some satisfying resolution.

I'm a Pietro fan as well. He's a character that I also enjoy as a jerk. But I'm not sure if he's your friend he will always have your back. Why? It depends on the situation. He's a complicated character. But as hero or villain I'm a fan of his.

I like when he's a complicated anti-hero/villain personally. When they just make him seem crazy and possibly mind controlled? Eh. Don't care for it.

Marvel has lots of shades of gray and Pietro just goes along with that.

My favorite stories with him are probably the ones by Stan & Don Heck during the year or so after he joined the Avengers. He had an air of superiority and aloofness about him, yet was in no uncertain terms determined to do the right thing and prove himself one of the good guys.

Then later writers (ROY THOMAS???) decided to have him say "Screw that!" and just get all full of himself and self-serving...

Last year I read ESSENTIAL AVENGERS Vol.5, where he disappeared during the 3rd Sentinels story. This week I'm plowing thru ESSENTIAL FANTASTIC FOUR Vol.6, the 2nd half of which I have the originals of. So now I got to read Quicksilver's story in the right sequence... and it STILL sucks. Roy broke up Johnny & Crystal for NO DAMN GOOD REASON other than to inject some lame-ass soap-opera crap into the characters' lives. Never mind Reed & Sue-- Johnny & Crystal were meant to be together, AT LEAST UNTIL Roy got done with them.

The height of stupidity had to be when Johnny considered checking up on Dorrie Evans-- that hard-headed, self-serving bossy BITCH he used to date. HOW STUPID are we supposed to believe this guy is??? Even more absurd is when she mentions that he dumped her... NO HE DIDN'T!!! It was the other way 'round. D'ja ever notice some writers just force things to happen in their stories, no matter how wrong or how little sense they make?

What astonishes me is, re-reading these stories now, that Gerry Conway's issues are actually better than Roy's... who'd a thunk it possible???


On a more absurdist level, something hit me this week that never crossed my mind before... and it's pure "Roy Thomas" fan-boyishness. Roy, John Buscema & Joe Sinnott introduced this 7-foot-tall, incredibly strong, ultra-macho BLONDE babe-- THUNDRA. Who, we find out down the line, comes from some other world (universe, dimension, whatever). And she's got this lightning bolt as part of her costume. Ring any bells? A few years later, Roy's pal Gerry introduced POWER GIRL-- Earth-2's version of SUPERGIRL. A year later, Gerry introduced MS. MARVEL-- Marvel's version of PG (sort of). I think THUNDRA was Marvel's version of MARY MARVEL...!!! (And never forget, SUPERGIRL was DC's version of MARY MARVEL!)

I think a fight meeting between THUNDRA and POWER GIRL is long overdue...

prof, Roy Thomas is a legend in the Avengers. He basically created the superhero soap opera (vs. drama). And I agree with you 100%.

The guy forced so many things that in hindsight I didn't like. I notice Stan Lee Marvel is very different than Roy's. Roy tried to make it the DC.

It's nice that he tied Timely into Marvel. But the Vision being the Human Torch? He's already based on another Timely character. It was just too much. Forced as you say. Hank Pym as YJ? That was a crazy story. I recently read it and well he does show Hank to be crazy. And he had Hank create Ultron.

I'm thinking of reviewing ESSENTIAL F.F. Vol.6 in more detail for the Kirby yahoo group, but it was such a painful read... (and the WORST stuff in the book was by STAN, not Roy or Gerry!!!)

Roy's 1st issue, a fill-in, was pretty good --apart from the odd, annoying bit here and there which just scream "ROY THOMAS!" at you. But his 2nd issue, the 1st of his regular run, was abomniably bad. Stan already had the FF at each other's throats, as if a decade of character development had never happened. Roy upped it. Then he had Reed & Sue separated, Johnny & Crystal break up (over QUICKSILVER???). Seems to me Gerry Conway's entire run was just stuff Roy would have done already, only with somehow less-annoying dialogue. (Unbelieveable, ain't it?)

I heard Roy, eternal Golden Age fan that he is, wanted to bring back The Vision. But Stan nixed it, suggesting an android instead. It's funny how the almost-identical thing happened in JLA with The Red Tornado-- isn't it? Making him The Human Torch seemed unnecesary. How many times since have we seen writers (Claremont or Byrne, especially) tie in unrelated characters together?

I always thought Roy's Marvel was just a too-serious, morose place, compared to Stan's more light-hearted place of wonderment. (Well, if you don't count Stan's SILVER SURFER issues...I think there's a reason those didn't sell!)


By the way, I contacted Roy today, he said he always thought of Thundra as a variation on Kirby's BIG BARDA. I can see that...!

Thundra and Big Barda? Cool.

Magdalene is also a Big Barda analog.


I've been wanting to share the plans I had for my alternate-timeline fanfics, but upon re-reading my outline for the first time in a while, I had to admit to myself that it's a mess. So what I'm going to do instead is go through my plans for each individual character.

The timeline diverges at the end of Roger Stern's last issue, once the adventure in Olympus is over.

FIRST ROLL CALL (alphabetical order):

Black Knight
Captain America
Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau)
Dr. Druid
Marrina
Namor the Sub-Mariner
She-Hulk
Thor

LATER MEMBERS:

Valkyrie (Dani Moonstar)
Yellowjacket (Rita De Mara)


BLACK KNIGHT:

- With approval from Avengers leader Captain Marvel, the Black Knight upgrades the defense systems on Hydrobase and builds a new Quinjet with not only air capabilities but also land and sea capabilities.

- She-Hulk, who had flirted with the Black Knight in one of Roger Stern's issues, asks him out on a date and the relationship blossoms from there.

- To save the soul of deceased Avenger Dr. Druid (details on this coming up in Druid's entry), the Black Knight must return to the 12th Century and face the mystical villains last seen in Steven Grant's story from the mid-220s. In the end, Druid is saved and the villains defeated, but at the cost of the destruction of the Black Knight's sword. Once back in the present, the Black Knight creates an energy sword similar to the one he used during the Bob Harras era.

Next: CAPTAIN AMERICA