Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Ah. Okay. It's still funny to imagine, though.

(Killraven is another Davis work -- besides Superboy's Legion -- that I still don't have in my collection. )

"That's the first I've heard about it. I'll definitely put it on my list of back issues to search for. The Star Wars Team Supreme on Flash Gordon...sounds awesome."

Al Williamson worked on FG 3-- or 4-- times that I know of. He did a brief run in the mid-60's on the King Comics comic-book. I have one issue-- WHOA!!!! Every panel a stunner.

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=20977&zoom=4

I believe he worked on the newspaper strip-- briefly-- but I'm not really sure when, or for how long. The one that bugs me is, Goodwin & Williamson did the comic-book adaptation of the 1980 FG movie-- and I've never found a copy of it! I can only imagine it looks (and probably "reads") better than the film. Then around 1992, they did a 2-issue series, which apparently fits in with the original continuity of the newspaper strip (I'm mostly familiar with the Alex Raymond run, the decades since have ben at a loss), but also paid tribute to the movie serials. It actually featured Azura, Queen of Magic, who'd been in FLASH GORDON'S TRIP TO MARS-- but treated her with more respect than that half-baked bad sequel did. (I found out some years ago Universal went thru 3 distinct periods where it was owned by different people-- and as it happens, the 3 FG serials were made by 3 completely different managements! No wonder the 1st & 3rd are so good, but the 2nd one sucks so bad!)


I did get the entire short run of MARVEL UNIVERSE; fun book! Stern brought back the giant "dragon" submarine that had appeared in one of the Simon & Kirby issues of CAPTAIN AMERICA. That was the only INVADERS revival that really interested me.


"There's a Busiek interview on the net from shortly after he left Iron Man, where he talks about how he had wanted the book to be what it was like during the Bill Mantlo era -- which I interpreted as, "pretend like the two Bob Layton eras never existed!""

Interesting; this is the first I've heard that. What I did notice is, Busiek's IM run reminded me of Roy Thomas' 2nd DR. STRANGE run, in that, despite so many years in between, you felt like you were reading a genuine continuation of the EARLIEST stories from the mid-60's-- instead of the book's history having a disjointed feel with different eras, it made you feel like, YES, the entire history of the book is somehow consistent.

Bill Mantlo was the perennial "fill-in" guy. He did so many fill-ins on IM when others kept blowing deadlines... he eventually took over the book, along with the returning George Tuska on HIS 3rd run. When Tuska left the last time (I'm not sure if he ever came back again), they "updated" the art somewhat, and it was at that moment I felt Mantlo was finally coming into his own as a writer. I was really beginning to enjoy his work on the book... when WHAM! He was gone, replaced by Michelinie & Layton, who apparently strong-armed their way onto it in some behind-the-scenes office politics power-play. SURE, they did good. SURE, they were BETTER than Mantlo. But to this day, it still feels "wrong" to me, how they got on the book in the first place.

I felt seriously let down when they revealed Bethany Cabe was still married... and then left the book. To my eyes, it went to HELL... and then Denny O'Neil spent 3 years DRAGGING it thru the mud. When things finally got back to reasonable, he left it to more chaos. I was glad Michelinie & Layton returned. At least half of their 2nd run was fun reading. But then they decided to Tony's life was going too good... BASTARDS. (It was the "Frank Miller syndrome" taking over, that's what it was.) I kept reading the book for around 2 years after they left the 2nd time, but NEVER enjoyed a single issue, and finally quit. Heard HORRIBLE things about it afterwards, and was so happy I missed it all.

The Kurt Busiek-Sean Chen run put the book back on top, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I found myself enjoying the book MORE than I had when Michelinie & Layton were doing it. The reason I figure this was, Michelinie & Layton seemed to me to have too much "attitude"-- they wanted it to be "THEIR" book, "THEIR" characters. Busiek seemed to want to give readers the "REAL" Tony Stark, not some re-invention of the latest know-it-all hot-shot egomaniac writers. But that's me.

One thing I never completely "got" during the entire run was, what the HELL was going on with Pepper & Happy? Apparently they were separated-- but I don't think anybody EVER found out why! As it went on and on, Pepper surprised me by becoming one of my FAVORITE female characters in the whole Marvel Universe. (And Sean Chen drew her cuter than I'd ever seen.) Frankly, when she & Tony looked like they were getting closer, I didn't mind. If her marriage was really done and over with, maybe it was about time. But then Busiek left, and Stern-- true to form-- said, "UH UH". I love Stern's work, but has anyone but me noticed he has this BAD habit of BREAKING UP longtime romances??? (Peter & MJ, Dr. Strange & Clea, Tony & Pepper) When I mentioned this to my comics-shop guy, he made a funny comment about it, but I'm not sure I should repeat it...

Joe Quesada's BRIEF run as writer was a warm-up for his longer run as EIC. Loud, in-your-face, shocking "event" stuff, not much class... I don't even remember who came after him. I just know the writing AND the art was HORRIBLE, and despite numerous hype about this or that big-name talent on the book, I've never been tempted back. I've had enough of "bait-and-switch".


"I think that that so-called "epic" is the biggest waste of space since bloody Korvac."

It looked good when it started. By the end... AAAUGH!


"The villain resurrection that particularly pisses me off is Zemo Junior."

This is always one that I have a hard time connecting with at all. This guy appeared in ONE fill-in issue written by Roy Thomas (if memory serves) in the middle of Steve Englehart's all-time classic run on C.A. And I always got the feeling Roy killed him off at the end of that ONE issue. When someone reminds me that Stern killed him off... I'm left wondering, how was it he was still alive for Stern to kill?


"Davis left because he was only ever contracted for six issues while Kilraven (IIRC) was in limbo."

That's the other thing that got me about Davis. He left AVENGERS-- which was going really good at that moment-- for KILLRAVEN ? Now, for anyone who's never seen it, Davis' art bears a STRIKING resemblance to Neal Adams'-- who drew the first issue of the 1970s KILLRAVEN series! So, you could say he was a good fit. But the story, as it turned out, did NOT-- REALLY-- fit into the original continuity! Fans-- like me-- have been waiting years for the story to be continued. When the original series ended, it was in mid-story. Years later, Don McGregor & Craig Russell did their graphic novel, and if you read it back-to-back with the earlier issues, it feels like it was written the next month. Just picks up like no time had elapsed. They were hoping to do more... but somehow, NEVER DID. So all this time later, I hear they're doing KILLRAVEN... but no McGregor, no Russell, and, apparently, it's an "alternate version". SO WHO CARES?????

I'm not completely sure... it's possible the Davis KILLRAVEN might fit in between a couple of the earliest episodes (the ones before McGregor), but something tells me not.

If Marvel could get Moench & Gulacy to do a brand-new MASTER OF KUNG FU mini-series, then dammit, it's high time they got McGregor & Russell to do a new KILLRAVEN mini-series. (And the same goes for Englehart & Brunner on DR. STRANGE.)

Davis' Kilraven was a pet project of his he'd been angling for for years. And a reboot.

Avengers Volume Three # 1-22 & Annual 1998

Honestly, it puzzles me that the Busiek era is so popular. Maybe it has something to do with not reading it in real time -- as I said earlier in this thread, I wasn't into comics during the late 1990s and early 2000s and didn't start catching up until 2005. Maybe it's a technical thing -- I don't think Busiek was particularly good at pacing or at writing action sequences. Maybe it's a generational thing -- Busiek is one generation older than me, and he was captivated by a different Avengers era than I was. One particular point of contention that I have with Busiek is that he seems to be part of the sizable margin of Avengers fans who put the first 200 issues on a pedastal, whereas I think that there's a lot of good stuff there, but also a lot of not-so-good stuff. Then there's Busiek's tendency to belittle my beloved Harras/Epting era, which leads me to believe that he's jealous -- after all, Harras & Epting came up with something different and exciting that revitalized Avengers (creatively if not commercially), while Busiek rode the warmed-over nostalgia train straight to the bank. Busiek was pretty damn lucky that he had superior artwork for most of his run: Perez, Pacheco, Immonen, Epting, Davis, Reis -- it made his stories a lot more tolerable to me, on the first reading at least (each time I re-read them, which isn't often, I find something else I don't like.)

Perez, of course, was the artist who got the book up and running, and in my opinion, his second run on Avengers is some of the best art of his career -- I feel that there were several years, from the late 1980s through the mid 1990s, where Perez wasn't quite as good as he was capable of, and these Avengers issues are a complete return to peak form.

Now, where the actual stories are concerned...the first arc, where almost everyone who was ever an Avenger assmebles to battle Morgan Le Fay, is good fun for the most part, with some enchanting medieval-fantasyland imagery, but it also establishes a recurring weakness of Busiek's that's similar to one of Shooter's: the villain is so powerful that he or she can only be defeated by a plot contrivance -- in this case, Morgan suddenly acting like a psychotic two-year-old; I just don't buy it. The follow-up issue, where the Big Three plus Jan & Hank come up with a new lineup, has one panel that makes me angry just thinking about it: Sersi, back in that horrible green bikini, rejecting the offer to rejoin but telling them to invite her to the next party, as if the Harras/Epting stories had never happened; the only way I can cope with that panel is by telling myself that it's a shape-shifter posing as Sersi, and that one day, my Sersi, the real Sersi, will return. The final lineup includes ex-New Warriors Firestar and Justice, both characters I like, but not the way that Busiek would consistently mis-characterize them. The new team's first official battle is against the Squadron Supreme, who are being mind-controlled yet again, as if Busiek couldn't think of anything better; eventually -- in the 1998 Annual, drawn by Pacheco -- the two teams combine forces, with some help from Swordsman II and Magdalene, to battle Imus Champion, an obscure villain who was forgettable back in the early 1970s and even more forgettable in the late 1990s; at least Philip and Magdalene get a dignified exit at the end. Next, there's a mini-crossover where Busiek cluelessly tries to tie up some loose ends from the Harras era, involving the Kree renegades and the Supreme Intelligence; this also provides a showcase for Busiek's inept long-term fall-rise-redemption storyarc for Carol Danvers (there was NOTHING in her previous appearances that suggested she was an alcoholic -- so much for Busiek's supposed respect for continuity.) Then, Busiek's forgettable creations Triathlon and Silverclaw (who both remind me of the token minority members from Superfriends) step into the spotlight, while the villain this time is Moses Magnum, if ever there was a more stuck-in-the-1970s villain. :rolleyes: After a battle against the Grim Reaper and a pack of zombie ex-Avengers returned from the dead, there were humdrum guest appearances by the Thunderbolts, the New Warriors, and the Beast, as Busiek started introducing villains of his own creation: Jonathan Tremont and his self-help cult, the Triune Understanding, Lord Templar and his Avatars, and the all-brawn-no-brains Pagan, all of them with potential that was never lived up to in the long run. There followed a very dissapointing three-issue arc guest-written and guest-penciled by Jerry Ordway, who is capable of better things. But it bought Busiek & Perez enough time to put some extra effort into their next, and arguably, best arc, Ultron Unlimited. I feel the same way about it that I feel about David Michelinie's Taskmaster arc: it hits all the right notes, and it's a good read, an anomaly of its era as far as my personal tastes go. Plus, there's the clever revelation that Hank programmed Ultron with his own brain patterns, one of those "But of course! Why didn't somebody come up with that before?" moments. If Busiek had managed to come up with equally good stories during the remainder of his Avengers run, I would have a more positive opinion of it.

I had originally intended to add a review of Busiek's 12-issue time-travel limited series Avengers Forever, but after a few issues I had to admit to myself that it's borderline unreadable, even with the copious footnotes, and I ended up mostly looking at Pacheco's wonderful art and ignoring the text.

Next week: Perez, Immonen, Epting and Davis keep the book afloat, but rough waters are just around the corner.

Well, she was the only Eternal who got panel time AND was still mindwiped at the end of Eternals #7, so... *shrugs*

Heh, I think the return of Giant-Man might've been more excitement from your dad! jk. I can see one of the originals returning injecting some excitement after the kooky quartet was getting old.

But I also think John Buscema helped alot. His work was head & shoulders above the rest at that time.

I agree with Stealth that after #48/49 is when things got good. Infact, IMO this is when superhero soap opera was born.

I'm going to try to go in order in respond to some of these posts cause they are so good.

"Honestly, it puzzles me that the Busiek era is so popular."

Maybe it had to do with what it was following? I stopped reading Marvel IN GENERAL about 6 months after Harras took over AVENGERS, so I missed a lot-- and everything I heard made me think I wasn't missing anything. Busiek & Perez were part of "HEROES RETURN", that promotional push that felt like a apology for "HEROES REBORN". Also, Perez' art was better than I ever remembered it being, and this time, not only did he stay for a good, long, consistent run, but whenever they ad fill-ins, they tended to have as good or better art.


"Then there's Busiek's tendency to belittle my beloved Harras/Epting era, which leads me to believe that he's jealous"

Maybe he never read those issues? Sure would make it easier to ignore tham or pretend they never happened...


"it made his stories a lot more tolerable to me, on the first reading at least (each time I re-read them, which isn't often, I find something else I don't like.)"

I hate when that happens with movies. Bad movies is one thing, but there's movies I really LIKE where, each time I sit thru them, their faults get bigger and bigger. Like THUNDERBALL, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, and THE SPY WHO LOVED ME. (I once read an article which tore SPY apart scene-by-scene-- every criticism stood out so glaringly because they all made sense, it was a sort of "keep things moving so the audience won't notice this", and as a result, while the film still looks great, I've never been able to appreciate it as much since. Logically, it makes NO SENSE AT ALL.)


"The final lineup includes ex-New Warriors Firestar and Justice"

I had no idea who the hell these people were, and the way they were written didn't make me wanna care, either.


"The new team's first official battle is against the Squadron Supreme, who are being mind-controlled yet again, as if Busiek couldn't think of anything better"

Instead of "Justice League done right", every time they'd pop up, they'd make the JLA look great by comparison. (Was Busiek taking under-the-table money from DC??)


"Busiek's inept long-term fall-rise-redemption storyarc for Carol Danvers (there was NOTHING in her previous appearances that suggested she was an alcoholic -- so much for Busiek's supposed respect for continuity.)"

I wonder if it isn't something about her starting life as a supporting character in CAPTAIN MARVEL, the book "nobody" wanted to work on? Gerry Conway cast her as a partially-amnesiac POWER GIRL wannabe (who was a swipe of Supergirl, who was a swipe of Mary Marvel...), Chris Claremont claimed it took him 2 years to figure out what the heck to DO with her (so much for that era's #1 "hotshot writer"), David Michelinie treated her like CRAP, then Claremont treated her EVEN WORSE as a way of getting back at Michelinie... I mean, DAMN. All that time, I just wanted my strong, intelligent, confident & gorgeous blonde powerhouse, not all this "so damaged she can't even stand up" crap. (There's a character like her, oddly enough, in the STORMBOY comic I've been working on-- I wonder if the thing will ever get finished. I treat her with more respect than most of these guys have treated Carol over the years.)


"Jonathan Tremont and his self-help cult, the Triune Understanding"

Good God, was there ever a storyline that just dragged on forever as badly as this one? He keeps trying to convince people he's on the up-and-up, Triathlon, who started out interesting, turns out to be involved with this conspiracy, HE doesn't say anything about it, then he comes on real strong as if, so what, they're okay guys... by the time it was over, I just wanted Tremont DEAD and gone-- permanently.


"Ultron Unlimited"

Ohhh-- I HATED this thing! One more case of bringing back an old villain, AGAIN, and upping the ante, higher and higher, to simply monstrous proportions. And this wasn't even the LAST story with Ultron, was it???


"I had originally intended to add a review of Busiek's 12-issue time-travel limited series Avengers Forever"

Oh don't wimp out on us now! C'mon, SOMEBODY's gotta refresh my memory about that thing. It was too deeply involved in the overlong mess that followed.

Wow, I loved Busieks run, and the stuff he ignored was stuff I didn't happen to like anyway...

And Avengers Forever rocked, IMO. I love continuity porn. I couldn't tell you what it was about *now,* but I couldn't even tell you what the hell Darkseid was up to in the Great Darkness Saga these days, I just remember liking and understanding it at the time.

Avengers Volume One # 358-379

The 360’s – the first time I ever noticed gimmicky covers. I remember thinking, ‘Hey, this is kind of cool’. Talk about overdoing something though—I hope we never see them again.

Proctor/Gatherers Saga continues – the Anti-Vision was awesomely portrayed as creepy and villainous and served the purpose of returning the Vision to his colorful roots. And it kicked off the next leg of the Saga, which only furthered the excellence of the then current Avengers. The return of Cap is great, as is his amazement at Sersi, Black Knight, Herc and others and the angst they are feeling. The Black Knight continues to develop into my favorite Avenger with his ‘whatever it takes’ attitude, and the love triangle b/t Dane, Sersi and Crystal heats up to a point where it becomes my favorite in Marvel history. To say I love this era is an understatement. I’ve repeated myself so many times that I almost don’t want to get into it again, but I could talk for post after post about why this era was so great. Each Avenger clicked, complete with personality flaws and dramatic moments and each issue was better than the next. Proctor’s mystery was truly intriguing, and the gradual deterioration of Sersi was scary and terribly interesting, as we wondered what exactly was going on. And through it all, Crystal and the Black Knight become closer and closer despite themselves.

Galen Kor – and suddenly it shifts gears back to the Kree fallout, in what may be the best story arc of the entire run! The introduction of Deathcry, which as Stealth says, is incredibly seemless, leads right into the follow-up of Operation: Galactic Storm in a kick-ass story. Herc, Dane, Crystal all captured by the Kree! Hank Pym returns as Giant-Man—yay! Giant Man kicks the crap out of a Sentry—double yay!! The entire Earth in trouble! The ultimate kick-ass battle with Magdalene and Deathcry helping out! I was blow away.

Giant-Man – I admit, that at the time in my youth, it was the return of Giant-Man that tipped things over the edge and made me love this run more than anything. I’ve said before that Giant-Man is one of my Dad’s all time favorite heroes (tied with Spidey and Iron Man), and that has influenced me from the first time he read me a comic—probably Avengers #1, though my memory plays tricks on me. I personally love Hank as Giant-Man and Goliath, but loathe him as Yellowjacket and hate when he’s plains-clothes Dr. Pym too. His return as Giant-Man was a ‘cheer’ moment for me, and it was executed beautifully. And Harras does what he does best, just like he was doing with Vision at the time. He was moving the characters forward, albeit in a way that made old fans cheer, but not dwelling on the past. There was no trauma or all the other baggage the character has being addressed, there was just kick-ass Giant Man as part of the team. I loved it. Busiek made some very heavy mistakes later by retreading old ground with Hank. If anything, I prefer him as Goliath, but Giant-Man is just as good.

Deathcry – despite feeling that I should hate her, I kind of have a soft-spot for her. Agree completely with Stealth about Busiek and other’s criticism. I mean really—Triathlon?

Bloodties – you know, I remember loving this too. At this point IMO, the X-titles were pretty awesome at the time too, and the combination of both of them and Harras’ Avengers made for a superb crossover. AWC was still weak at this time, but US Agent shined a little. Of course, the story got off-kilter at one point and didn’t turn out to be the next great Marvel Crossover, ut overall, I thought it worked well. Exodus makes for a great villain and the use of Luna here showcased how central a role in the MU she has. Crystal was awesome here, and I like how Wanda and the Black Knight are portrayed. I haven’t read this in years though, so I probably have rose-colored glasses.

The End of the Proctor/Gatherers Saga – and the final issues of this story from #372 – 375 are damn near perfect in my opinion. The Gatherers continue to prove to be a threat, while the drama between the Black Knight, Crystal and Sersi deepens, now with Quicksilver (FINALLY!) added into the mix. Sersi’s apparent madness becomes more and more understandable and the Black Knight finally reaches a point where he is able to break the Gans Josen (know I spelled that wrong). All the other Avengers shine with a bunch of guest stars included, and Quicksilver and the Black Knight finally learn the truth about Proctor in what has to be one of the best final pages of any Avenger’s story. The final battle is amazing, and even the inclusion of Thunderstrike gave a sense of completion to Harras and Epting’s entire run. It truly is one of the greatest Avenger’s stories ever told—if not *thee* greatest.

The end result was the exit of the Black Knight and Sersi and the end of what is my favorite Marvel romance of all time, that between Crystal and the Black Knight. On the one hand, I recognize brilliance when I read it and love the finale, but on the other hand, it was heart-breaking to read. But to a young boy, the Black Knight’s heroic decision to go with Sersi seemed *so* powerful.

Deodoto and later issues – Deodoto has always been hit or miss with me, and this was an era where his art was just way to over the top. And the line-up began to be more pronounced, so that Deathcry had more screen time, Giant Man was done well, but needed better interaction, and now Quicksilver became a full-time member, which meant it was nice to see a follow-up on where his and Crystal’s story would go from here (as well as get him back in Avengers, where I feel he belongs rather than X-Factor), although I didn’t like him wanting to reconcile with Crystal. The Taylor Madison/Herc story felt kind of like a cop-out, complete with Zeus involvement coming out of left field, so I can understand how people may have hated it.

The Crossing – perhaps the worst Avengers story ever told. Completely all over the field, it was impossible to keep track of read and made little sense. Mantis as the surprise villainous, Kang’s continuity-messy ‘hidden history of the Avengers’, Iron Man betraying them and then teen Tony arriving…it was just crap. It was the epitome of what was wrong with the 90’s. Really, I almost can’t find words venomous enough to talk about it.

Pre-Onslought – right before Onslought, Waid came in and attempted to get the book on track, but ultimately it was too discombobulated.

Heroes Reborn – Awful. Really, there isn’t one good thing to say about it. Ok, it beats the Crossing, but c’mon.

Busiek era? I loved and hated it.

While I really liked the Harras era I didn't think it was perfect. And then Heroes Reborn really made me miss the old Avengers. So Kurt going old school was fine by me. But yes his ignoring some of the more recent Avengers history was good and bad. I guess it depends on the reader.

I really didn't care for the Triathlon story at all. Or the villain Templar, etc. What really made angry was what he did with the Vision and Hank Pym.

The Vision and the Human Torch were now two sepereate androids. Good. I hated the Vision always owing everything he is to others...Ultron, Wonder Man, Human Torch I. I rather him be his own android. Kurt made him a chrono-clone...ugh. Anyways, that is not as big a deal as hank.

Pym returns as YJ? ARGH?!?!?! That was very forced. Infact, I didn't care for Harras returning him as Giant-Man. But ok that's fine. But YJ? The split personality thing?

Engleheart did awesome by making the character Dr. Pym. He was a sci-fi doctor type of hero and it fit. Then the writers want to return him to the hero he was long ago...and it never worked. Still doesn't. YJ???

Avengers Volume Three # 1-22 & Annual 1998

When Busiek and Perez came on, I was beyond excited, and I can still see why. They did a good job in returning the Avenger’s to the ‘Avengers’, especially after the recent years of Heroes Reborn and the Crossing before that. Nostalgia was heavy, but it felt like genuine Marvel Super-Hero action again. But I agree that the run was complete with flaws, for some very real reasons. But first, some of the good:

Perez’s art – talk about knocking it out of the ball park. Every issue was like getting a present. It was breath-taking.

Using old Avengers – Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hank, Jan, Wanda, Clint, Vision, etc. So many Avengers that are true ‘core Avengers’ were brought back into the line-up and I felt that was very welcome. Especially Thor and Iron Man, who despite some fans thinking they’re part of the ‘big three’, I personally love their involvement in the team—more so than Cap.

The interaction between Avengers, with the everyday moments the dialogue, and the bureaucracy they had to deal with. That was fun and interesting to see.

Nostalgia – and yes, a lot of the nostalgia was nice. Thor yelling ‘Eric!’ to the once again dying Thunderstrike struck a cord with me, and Hawkeye struggling with his old role on the team was good. But in thinking about Busiek’s nostalgia, it hits on one of this run’s biggest flaws, in that it was way too nostalgia-centric at times. And ultimately, Busiek did things that brought he characters right back to the mid-70’s, ignoring tons of things before him. The Vision was no longer the same Vision he was back then and had been through quite a few changes. Hank was not the same ‘broken man’ anymore. Busiek felt the need to do a sequel to Avenger’s stories of old, not taking into account that sequels had already been done, with sequels to those in continuity too. He retread old ground *so* much that a great deal of history was ignored. Suddenly whole eras were lumped into ‘Heroes Reborn’ when there wasn’t any need for that.

And Busiek did the same thing Bendis does, in playing favorites. Sure, every writer does that, we all know Stern and Englehart did. But they were respectful to the past—which could be seen time and time again. But Busiek showered us with Traitholon, Silver Claw, Justice and Firestar, while at the same time ignoring many he didn’t like, just like Bendis does. It was that, and his focus on getting some Avengers stuck back in their old roles which I didn’t like. It felt like it was putting the Avengers back on the poisonous old path of being stale, which ultimately would lead to something as shitty as Avengers Dissassembled. Hate what was done to Carol, disliked his ignoring the Harras era (including changes to Vision, Sersi, Crystal, etc.).

I hated the Jerry Ordway arc. Here he had the Black Knight and Photon, two Avengers just waiting to be used again, and he pretty much mischaracterized them the whole time, on top of a boring story.

But I don’t want to seem as if I hate this era. Not the case at all—like others, I dislike parts of it, but love parts of it too. I liked the “Ultron Unlimited Arc” and thought it was fantastic. Earlier arcs with the Grim Reaper and the first few appearances with Lord Templar and Pagan were very interesting, and I couldn’t wait to see where it went. Generally, the first 25 issues of the run were pretty excellent, with only some minor things that were annoying. But those things would continue to become more pronounced later.

Avengers Forever, I actually loved. I thought it was very well done, and I loved the tributes he paid to various earlier eras, especially with Hank and Jan in tow. Songbird and Captain Marvel III (his first appearance) were interesting and the revelations were all exciting. It was like he came and ‘fixed’ all the stupid things over the years with a really great story that roped in the Kree, Srkulls, Kang, Immortus, Rick Jones, etc. It was really awesome. I think if he only retreaded old ground here most of us would have been satisfied.

Umm... Avengers Forever was not only NOT Genis' first appearance, he'd ACTUALLY HAD HIS OWN MINISERIES a couple of years earlier.

Oh, I know that . It was a pretty awful mini too (though Beta Ray Bill showed up). But at the end of two long posts, I was getting sloppy. I meant mainly Genis first appearance in that costume. Really, its the first time he appeared that it counted, but I guess that's all a matter of opinion.

Nit-picker

I actually liked Legacy. He first appeared in the Silver Surfer. He made a few appearances there. I want to say next was Cosmic Powers mini? Then his own mini. I liked him in space better.

But yeah AF is when he actually mattered. Poor Genis. He got the shaft.

So there is hope for Sersi after all, just like there's hope for Rita, the female Yellowjacket. Yay!

Oh, Busiek's read those issues, all right. He never misses a chance to pompously pontificate about how superior HIS issues are, how HE didn't try to make the Avengers more like the X-Men. *&)()&*%^% arrogant, clueless jerk! I enjoyed Harras & Epting's Avengers because it WASN'T like the X-Men, and I actually half-heartedly followed X-Men at the same time as Avengers, until the ridiculous resolution of the whole "Who's the real Betsy?" mess.

I would highly recommend reading the Firestar mini-series (now available in digest form) and New Warriors Volume One # 1-25.

LOL I think bigger is sometimes better, when it's done right. And as far as I know, Ultron didn't reappear until just this month, in Mighty Avengers # 1, which I haven't browsed through yet, but I've read some spoilers and it sounds eye-rollingly bad. :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I can't do it -- I don't want my brain to melt.

Thank you, Cobie, for once again covering the issues I don't have. I'm wondering...my Avengers collection ends with Busiek's last issue. Would you like to take over the chronology from Johns through the present day?

Amen to that. Especially the part about putting the Avengers back on the path of being stale, which led to Avengers Disassembled. If Busiek was a better writer (and less of a stick-in-the-mud), he could have gradually evolved the team so that it went from overly-familiar members to fresh new members. Instead, the book got so grindingly stale with the status quo, that the pendulum swang too far the other way, and the book was shattered, perhaps forever. This is why I have no patience for people with very rigid ideas of what the Avengers "should" and "shouldn't" be. The book spent its first 30 years taking chances and getting better and better thanks to those chances -- there is a lesson to be learned here.

Stealth, I'd love to take over chronology wise, though I only see myself as a deputy performing duties for you for the issues you're missing It won't be too many either, the John's issues can basically be covered pretty fast. I'm a John's fan, but his Avengers run wasn't anything special (and Austen...heh, Austen...).

Looking forward to thoughts on the second half of Busiek's run--which actually began with what I thought were some fine Avengers moments, only to end up going through one of the more drawn out stories in Avengers history.

"And as far as I know, Ultron didn't reappear until just this month, in Mighty Avengers # 1"

I just took a quick glance down my index, there was a one-shot called THE ULTRON IMPERATIVE (Nov'01) written by Busiek (w/ plot assist by Roy Thomas!) and with dialogue & art by a nostalgic ARMY of former & new AVENGERS creators (Roger Stern, Steve Englehart, Jim Starlin, etc.)

I'd also love for someone to review the Hellcat-related stories, AVENGERS INFINITY, the completely over-the-top absurdity of MAXIMUM SECURITY (some story ideas just go TOO DAMN FAR) and CELESTIAL QUEST.

By the way, I also looked over my index, and noticed that the editor in charge of the entirety of Busiek's run-- and Johns' run-- was Tom Brevoort. When I started adding editors to my index, that's when I noticed that nearly every major turning point in a series or change in creative line-up coincided with changes in editors, which told me editors often have more influence on a book than writers. It's pretty obvious Brevoort is also a nostalgia freak, which is not necessarily a bad thing (especially when I see how so much of Marvel & DC have degenerated over the last 15 years).

Let's put it this way... whenever something happens-- good or bad-- ALWAYS blame whoever's in charge! (As Captain Kirk said on at least one occasion-- "It's MY ship-- and MY responsibility.")

Okay, here's what I want to know. Maybe it's been asked before... whatever.

Anyway, in Civil War: The Confession Tony said-- and I quote-- "The Avengers avenge, X-Men defend, the Fantastic Four explore." Which, yeah, okay, we already knew. But what is it that the Avengers are avenging? (Also, side note: If the X-Men defend, what exactly do the Defenders do?)

I mean, the X-Men are defending mutants from humans (and humans from mutants if the House of M debacle is any indication) and the FF exploration is basically self-explanatory but... yeah. What is there to avenge, exactly? Or who? And why are these people doing it?

Brevoort then is responsible for the current nightmare. What's wrong with the middle road I say?

Tis the job of the Avengers to avenge all attempts of attack and subversion upon the normal folk of Mid-Guard as noble Thor once said!

In 40 years of history, this has never truly been explained though. It was just such a cool name in the 1960's!

"In 40 years of history, this has never truly been explained though. It was just such a cool name in the 1960's!"

Jan said something like, "We need a name like The Avengers, or..." Sheesh.

Sure seems to me Stan Lee (& Marvel in general) spent some time gutting existing tv shows for their names...

THE AVENGERS
THE DEFENDERS
THE INVADERS
THE CHAMPIONS

At least you can't confuse the JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA with anyone else!




I guess when THE X-FILES started it was "payback". Had it been a comic-book rather than a tv show, I suspect Marvel's lawyers would have been all over them...

Thanks, I appreciate it. Sometimes it's more fun to review mediocre-to-bad comics than good comics, isn't it? Real cathartic.

Here's a little advance sample:

The Kulan Gath/Origin-of-Silverclaw storyarc reminds me of those hokey old black & white jungle movies that Joel and Mike and the robots used to make fun of on Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Sounds moderately intriguing. If Busiek's name wasn't on it, I probably would put it on my list of back issues to search for.

Hellcat-related stories? Do you mean the Avengers and T-bolt annuals where she's brought back to life?

I once considered buying the back issues of Avengers Infinity, because Roger Stern is one of my favorite writers and Sean Chen is a good artist. But when I found out it stars three of my least favorite Avengers -- Starfox, Tigra, and Moondragon -- I decided against it.

I feel so lucky that uncannyxmen.net has detailed summaries of Maximum Security, so I could find out what happened without wasting money. Just as with the mini-crossover Live Kree or Die, Busiek proves he shouldn't be let anywhere near the sub-genre of superhero space opera.

I haven't read Avengers: Celestial Quest, and I've never really felt much curiosity about it. I guess it's because I think Thanos should never have been resurrected, and his presence in any comic book is an automatic turn-off to me, even with Steve Englehart writing it.

It would be interesting to use that reasoning on the Avengers editors who came before Brevoort. At the moment, I don't have access to my copies of the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers (the 1990s update of the original), and I need them to reference the exact dates and issues. But I definitely will come back to this subject very soon.

I have a feeling that neither Stan Lee nor anyone else at Marvel gave any serious thought to the true meaning of the name until Bob Harras referred to it twice during his run, raising interesting questions about whether or not to take the name literally, and where to draw the line that heroes shouldn't cross. Forgive me for being vague, it's just I'm afraid that if I go into detail, I'll spoil the stories.

No one since Harras has ever addressed the subject, but hopefully that will change sometime in the future.

My indexes aren't completely updated, but I thought I'd see what I did have and pass it on...

STAN LEE -- #1 / Sep'63
ROY THOMAS -- #103 / Sep'72
LEN WEIN -- #133 / Mar'75
MARV WOLFMAN -- #140 / Oct'75
ARCHIE GOODWIN -- #150 / Aug'76
GERRY CONWAY -- #151 / Sep'76
ARCHIE GOODWIN -- #158 / Apr'77
JIM SHOOTER -- #171 / May'78
ROGER STERN -- #173 / Jul'78
JIM SALICRUP -- #192 / Feb'80
MARK GRUENWALD -- #222 / Aug'82
HOWARD MACKIE -- #304 / Jun'89
RALPH MACCHIO -- #335 / Aug'91

I stopped buying a few months after this...

TOM BREVOORT w/Gregg Schigiel -- #1 / Feb'98
TOM BREVOORT w/Frank Dunkerley -- #28 / May'00
TOM BREVOORT w/Marc Sumerak -- #38 / Mar'01
TOM BREVOORT w/Marc Sumerak & Jeff Youngquist -- #47 / Dec'01
TOM BREVOORT w/Marc Sumerak -- #52 / May'02
TOM BREVOORT w/Marc Sumerak & Andy Schmidt -- #58 / Nov'02

I don't know how much assistant editors influence books, but I figured I'd include them on this list.

Ultron also appeared in Frank Tieri's last Iron Man arc (v3 #45-49 or thereabouts), following up on Ultron Imperative and explaining away Quesada's Sentient Armour (and something else Quesada introduced...).