Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

"*choke* I hope its the actual issues of Spidey's mag and not my reviews that were painful!"

Yes. I was telling a friend (and fellow comics fan) about your thread, and I told him, this guy so clearly loves these books, it wouldn't be polite for me to dump on 'em, just because of how I've come to feel over the years.

One of the reasons I wanted to pull out my 60's comics and re-read them was so i could experience all over again the stuff I DID enjoy. Just as someone here said they refused to read the Simonson AVENGERS issues on principle, there's no point in going back over comics you DON'T like. There's too much good stuff out there-- you just gotta find it!




Of course, this doesn't explain the lengthy reviews of the late-60's CAPTAIN MARVEL I did for Klordny. that was more like watching a train-wreck in slow motion, and not believing what you're seeing. It can't POSSIBLY be THAT bad-- can it? Oh my God-- IT'S WORSE! (How do things like that happen???)



I admit, it cracks me up that, to date, the only 2 series I've ever done in-depth reviews of for my a.p.a. were CM and GL-- 2 "sci-fi series GONE BAD". I suppose it's interesting-- and frustrating-- to see something with a ton of potential gone horribly astray...

C'est moi.

And thanks to the internet and to publications like The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, it's possible to find out what happened in those stories without even reading those comics in the first place.


Avengers Volume One # 305-333

By this time, changes had taken place in Avengers, none of them for the better. John Buscema had left after # 300, and his eventual replacement as regular Avengers penciler was Paul Ryan, whose pleasant but low-key style was all wrong for Avengers; Mark Gruenwald had left after # 303, and his replacement as editor was the infamous Howard Mackie. Worst of all, John Byrne, fresh from commiting character assasinations over in WCA, now became the writer of BOTH Avengers books! At least Tom Palmer was still around to provide an attractive finish to the art.

While I think Byrne did some great artwork during the 1970s and early 1980s, I've never had much time for him as a writer. I don't think Byrne ever really mastered the craft of writing, because his first regular writing gig (Fantastic Four) was an immediate commercial success.

Byrne's first crime was in de-stabilizing the Avengers lineup so that he could pick and choose any characters he wanted for particular stories. If he was a better writer, he would have realized that without a stable lineup, Avengers would become unfocused, which it did. Then there were the matters of structure and pace -- his Eternals/Blastaar story (the one with the most potential to be a good story, IMO) was compressed into only three issues, and spent way too much time on the setup; on the opposite end, his Nebula/Stranger story was painfully stretched out across five issues (Byrne didn't even finish this story because he quit both Avengers and WCA so abruptly -- Fabian Nicieza's last-minute resolution was pretty lame, but I think Byrne's would have been even worse.)

Byrne's single positive contribution to the Avengers was bringing Sersi into the team, although Byrne and the other pre-Harras writers stuck to Sersi's established characterization as a one-dimensional party girl in a stupid-looking green bikini.

As noted above, Fabian Nicieza jumped aboard to end a story that Byrne left unfinished. Nicieza stuck around long enough to plot and script a six-part bi-weekly story arc entitled The Crossing Line. I've long felt that Nicieza's prolific writing falls into three categories: 1) stories he passionately cares about; 2) energetic but half-baked stories; 3) outright hackwork. The Crossing Line falls into the second category -- on one hand, the pace never lets up and the tons of guest stars (Soviet Super Soldiers, Atlanteans, Alpha Flight) all serve a purpose; on the other hand, it plummets from the sublime to the ridiculous after the nuclear bomb detonates. The rushed-looking art (inevitable on a bi-weekly schedule) doesn't help. These six issues each had a five-page backup story written by Mark Gruenwald, in which the members of the Avengers' staff each become mind-controlled by villains from Captain America's solo book. This culminates in the self-contained, Gruenwald-written issue # 325, one of the single worst Avengers issues every published. If Gruenwald was hoping to attract readers to Captain America's solo book, it's more likely this story had the opposite effect.

But wait -- it gets even worse! The next Avengers writer was Larry Hama, who wrote excellent stories for G.I. Joe, and terrible stories for any superhero title unlucky enough to have him on board. Hama's Avengers issues just reek of his smug contempt for superheroes. He tries to be jokey, deconstructive, gritty, and topical all at once, and fails in every way. To give but one example, Hama's pet character, Rage, wants to clean up the streets, so he demolishes a crackhouse, the implication being that none of the people inside deserved to live. Another example -- when reporters ask Captain America about ex-villain turned Avenger the Sandman's criminal record, Cap replies, "He got a full pardon. If it was good enough for Nixon, it's good enough for him." Obviously no one told Hama that Nixon turned out to be the villain in one of Cap's solo stories. :groan:

I'm glad to have put all that awfulness behind me. Next week, Bob Harras & Steve Epting finally arrive, beginning my favorite Avengers era ever!!

Avengers Volume One # 305-333

Uh…as Stealth says, another groan-worthy era. Most of this era is unmemorable, and I’ll add a few comments to summarize my thoughts:

- Byrne on both Avengers titles – Byrne’s typically declining work during this period as his stories continued to worsen and his character moments and set-up seemed more and more forced. Basically, there just wasn’t enough ‘oomph’ for an Avengers title.

- De-stabilizing the line-up – as many writers have learned over the years, this is a sure-fire way to lead the team into a period where no one is generally caring about the stories because no one is caring about the heroes, since you never know who is going to be around. This also generally feels like the period where a sense of ‘anyone can be an Avenger’ begins to take hold, despite there being past members that some might not consider Avengers material. This probably has more to do with Byrne’s style of using whoever he wanted.

- Sersi – I never generally cared about Sersi at all until the upcoming Harras/Epting era. But her addition here, although she didn’t have much of a personality yet, marks the beginning of another character that would later begin to ‘feel’ like an Avenger in another traditional sense that the Hulk started and some others followed (including possibly Mantis) – that of one that you didn’t really want to rely on.

- Quasar – I also remember this as a period when Quasar was in the Avengers, which to me is more of marker of the time period this era falls into in the general larger picture of the Marvel U. Quasar is yet another character that I’ve never felt any real passion for, even though I don’t dislike him. I liked the notion that he carried on for Captain Marvel as Protector of the Universe (though what Marvel is thinking these days in regards to this is anyone’s guess).

- Larry Hama – Here’s a quick note that someone might find funny. When I first really got into the internet, it was on the old DC Message Boards, generally on the Legion Board, which most of you know led to the creation of this board in some form or another. But I also was on the Batman Board’s quite a bit, and there used to be a camaraderie of posters there equivalent to the LMB here on the Legion Board. Well, during this time period (Spring 1999), Larry Hama was on Batman for probably no more than a (6) issue arc, but it was SO BAD, that the posters there deciding to hold Larry Hama accountable and we created a genuine ‘The People versus Larry Hama’, in which he was tried (and even was given a defense team), and actually found guilty of attempting to destroy Batman and all of Batman’s fans. I generally feel that whether he means to or not, Larry Hama has continually been a part of horrific runs on comic books like this over the years.

- Rage – a rather annoying character and one who didn’t belong as an Avenger. At best, he worked semi-well in the New Warriors, but in reality, he was nothing more than the transition of the old African American stereotypes pushed into a new stereotype (whether with good intentions or not) and forced into an Avengers story.

- Sandman – I like Sandman too, being a Spider-Man fan, and I didn’t even mind him being quasi-good (though I do prefer him as a villain/antagonist). But he also did not have a place in the Avengers. I can see how it was somewhat reminiscent of the Swordsman, but honestly, the execution was so poor (and worse, boring) that it wasn’t worth having him locked in as an Avenger for future stories.

Luckily, all of this above was relatively brief and there was some extraordinary stuff to come, with perhaps my favorite era of all for the Avengers.

Quasar's early Avengers appearances were so unmemorable, I forgot while I was writing my review that he was in the book at all during that era.

I came to like him after Operation Galactic Storm, and when I decided to use him as a point-of-view character in my first Imperial Guard fanfic, I started to really like him over the course of writing that story.

He certainly deserved better than to be killed off (or was he?) during Annihilation.

Great story, Cobie. Thanks, because I needed a good laugh today.

Actually, I probably know him more from your fanfic than anything Marvel has actually done! He just never interested me in the MU.

In Annhilation, he died at the end of Nova #3, but apparently, there is a new Quasar series on there horizon, though I can't remember anything about it.

Glad you liked the Larry Hama story. It was as ridiculous and over the top as you can imagine, complete with an Alt ID as Mr. Freeze being the 'icey' judge.

"At least Tom Palmer was still around to provide an attractive finish to the art."

Yeah, he really became for THE AVENGERS what Joe Sinnott had long been to FANTASTIC FOUR (at least, until John Byrne decided he wanted the art to look really ugly on purpose-- a tribute to the "George Bell" era, no doubt?).


"Byrne didn't even finish this story because he quit both Avengers and WCA so abruptly"

He seems to do a LOT of that, doesn't he? ("I'm gonna take my ball and go home!")


I remember at first thinking Rage was really Luke CAGE, in disguise, since he was MIA at the time and wanted for a murder he didn't commit (and which John Byrne exonerated him for-- in NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER, of all places). The truth of his identity & background was quite surprising, but to me, somewhat disappointing.


Larry Hama first impressed me as a penciller, on 4 of the first 5 episodes of IRON FIST (all inked by Dick Giordano). Great stuff. Later, he wrote the even more brutally violent SAMURAI series in EERIE magazine, all illustrated by Val Mayerik. (This was later continued in a book titled YOUNG MASTER, also by Mayerik, though i forget if Hama wrote it). I recall his AVENGERS being not that bad... but then, I'm sure there were a lot MORE, WORSE books I was reading at the time. I suppose one could say it was the culmination of Gruenwald, Byrne, Hama, Nicieza AND early Harras that finally made me stop reading the book. Oh well!


"Quasar's early Avengers appearances were so unmemorable"

Anybody remember his debut in CAPTAIN AMERICA, as "Marvel Man" ?

Cobie, what would you think of the idea of putting Bendis on trial in this thread?


Avengers Volume One # 334-344

The striking cover to # 334 makes it clear what has been lacking in Avengers for the last few years: a sense of urgency. As Captain America charges to rescue Quicksilver from the assault of new villain Thane Ector, one can feel the intensity and the darkness rushing through Avengers again -- something not seen since the Roger Stern/John Buscema era. From here on, the raw energy of Bob Harras's story builds and builds across six bi-weekly issues -- Ector and his warlike race, the Brethren, attacking first the Inhumans' settlement on the moon, then Earth; Sersi bringing out shades of grey in Ector; the team of Black Panther, Beast, Quasar and Hank Pym investigating the origin of the Brethren; Crystal earnestly volunteering to join the Avengers; the shocking cosmic-level revelations involving both the Brethren, and their former captor, the Collector; and at the end, a rousingly good final battle.

Where the artwork is concerned, there are still
the rough spots inevitable to bi-weekly releases. As Steve Epting tells it in a 1993 interview:

Had Mackie not been replaced as editor by Ralph Macchio, it's quite possible that Harras would have been only the latest writer to pass through the revolving door. Harras himself confirmed it in a 1993 interview:

Following a fill-in issue (# 340), Fabian Nicieza guest-wrote a two-parter guest starring the New Warriors (pencilled by Epting, showing for the first time on Avengers just how good he really is). The main purpose of this story was to write Rage out of Avengers and into New Warriors. Nicieza's story, dealing with racial tensions (this was during the aftermath of the Rodney King beating) is much better-written than his previous Avengers story, although it is definitely more typical of New Warriors.

# 343 is where the Harras/Epting era truly begins: Crystal being officially welcomed into the team, and the last-page introduction of Swordsman II and Magdalene. There is also the introduction of the first stable lineup since the Stern/Buscema era -- Captain America, Black Widow, Black Knight, Crystal, Vision, Hercules, Sersi (MIA), and Thor Substitute (who would mercifully be written out of the book after about a year) -- and one of the high points of this issue is the conversation between Captain America and Black Widow:

BW: Steve, it's nearly 2 AM...we've got an early meeting with the West Coast branch tomorrow. Is anything wrong?

CA: No, 'Tasha. Just couldn't sleep. I've got things on my mind, so I decided to get some work done.

BW: Are you worried about Crystal and ["Thor"]? Really, there's no need, they did fine...or...is it Rage?

CA: Partially. It just seems too many mistakes are being made lately, 'Tasha. Members are coming and going as if there were a revolving door here...there's no stability to the team. Sandman leaves before his ID card is printed! Rage turns out to be a child...even Sersi hasn't been seen in weeks! It makes you wonder...

BW: Wonder what?

CA: Being an Avenger used to mean something! It was a mark of honor, distinction. We were a fellowship of friends. Now it's...I don't know...changed. We've become an ill-defined group of strangers. Stop me if I'm sounding like an elitist.

BW: You? Never. No, you're just a man who cares.

CA: Maybe I'm living in the past. Lord knows I've been accused enough about that in my time. But I can't help worrying. The Avengers gave my life meaning again, I believe in what they stand for. And I can't shake the feeling that something's gone terribly wrong. [pause] Now it is time to hit the hay. Sorry for the maudlin speech.

BW: Steve, you always make maudlin speeches...that's why we love you!

CA: Please...!

# 344 features a thrilling battle against Swordsman II and Magdalene, and the introduction of mysterious new villain Proctor, beginning the longest, most complex, and most ambitious Avengers story since Mantis/Swordsman/Vision/Scarlet Witch. Magdalene is often assumed to be an alternate-world version of Mantis, but according to The Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe (http://www.marvunapp.com), she's actually the Marvel analog to DC's Big Barda. I really love Swordsman II (Philip) and Magdalene. They've been missing from the MU for almost a decade now, and I'd love to see them back someday (but not until Marvel's current editorial regime is gone.)

Next week: Operation Galactic Storm!!

Well, she was never Mantis - I mean, we SAW her MU counterpart (and saw her killed off at that!) didn't we?

One thing that always bugged me a bit though - given Proctor's history, he took being spurned by her as opposed to killing her & Swordsman straight away?

Of course we did. But you may be surprised (or not) at how many people on the internet overlook the details and automatically assume that just because she's with an alternate-world Swordsman, it automatically means she's an alternate-world Mantis. Another thing that a lot of people overlook is the great scene in # 357 where the Avengers are questioning Swordsman, and he reveals that the Mantis of his world looked nothing like the Earth-616 Mantis, but she was a dead ringer for Moondragon.

It's a legimate flaw in the story, but I can live with it. And since we never learned that much about these characters' back story, I think it is possible to come up with a credible reason for Proctor letting Swordsman and Magdalene live.

A couple things I forgot to post earlier:

-- Steve Epting's style was particularly refreshing at the time, because he wasn't a Jim Lee clone or a Rob Liefeld clone. Epting combined the best of the old (smooth, eye-pleasing draftsmanship) and the new (dramatic layouts, particularly from the late 350s on.)

-- Starting with # 343, Tom Palmer began doing double-duty as both inker and colorist. The improvement in the book's look was considerable, both richer and more subtle at the same time.

"he reveals that the Mantis of his world looked nothing like the Earth-616 Mantis, but she was a dead ringer for Moondragon"

This makes sense. I recall a scene (somebody??) where Heather Douglas was complaining about how "superior" her upbringing was compared to Mantis (did SHE ever have a "real" name?), and she felt somehow gyped that the Kotati had picked that WHORE to become The Celestial Madonna instead of her. (And if memory serves, someone pointed out it was Heather's very air of "superiority" that nixed her as one of the choices! Like Thor, pre-Donald Blake, she needed to learn some humility.


"Steve Epting's style was particularly refreshing at the time, because he wasn't a Jim Lee clone or a Rob Liefeld clone. Epting combined the best of the old (smooth, eye-pleasing draftsmanship) and the new (dramatic layouts, particularly from the late 350s on.)"

I remember thinking his drawing reminded me of Neal Adams, except with layouts that better aided the story (less of that, "LOOK at me! Aren't I FLASHY just for the sake of it?" kinda thing).

I really dug it when Steve Epting teamed up with Dan Jurgens on AQUAMAN. At the time, it looked like the most "70's Marvel" book I had seen in ages! DAMN shame it got cancelled in only about a year. It's mostly been chaos & crapola since.

Avengers Volume One # 334-344

Late as usual, but I’m here

As I’ve said many times before, this is one of my favorite eras of the Avengers, if not my actual favorite. When the Harras Avengers were coming out, it was when I started reading Avengers in ‘real time’, aka when I was reading the actual issues coming out off the newsstands, as opposed to reading my Father’s massive boxes of back-issues. Harras had a similar type of style to writing the Avengers that Stern and Englehart had, with some definite additional qualities to his writing that I loved. What he would do was acknowledge all of Marvel’s past continuity, and then move forward with it, doing *new* plots and bits with the characters, taking them new places that made sense when viewed in reference to the old. That is the truest and purest way to write in a shared universe with a shared continuity, and Harras not only was able to address that, he was able to make it work for him, just like Stern was able to.

The truly great Harras stuff comes slightly after these initial ten issues, but right away we see some great bits.

- Crystal – one of my favorite Marvel characters of all. Her addition to the Avengers helps *make* the team for me, and I love every minute of it. Its her relationship with the Black Knight that is perhaps my favorite of all Marvel romances, but I also love the drama-filled relationships (not romantic per se) with the Vision and Quicksilver and the rest. I love Crystal here, and I think this is the best she’s ever been written in her history.

- The line-up. The line-up during this era is one that is really very cool. In a way, its full of classic Avengers that never had a chance to really shine before, but it also feels so fresh and so firmly plant in this era. Hercules finally gets some great ongoing character bits and dynamics, and Sersi comes into her own. The Black Knight becomes the break out star, with his ‘whatever it takes’ attitude, and the Black Widow shines for the first time since basically her run in Daredevil’s title in the early 70’s. At first, this tried and true Avenger’s fan thought it would be odd for Captain America not to be the team leader, but by the middle of Harras’ run, I wanted Natasha to have that role.

- that scene you posted Stealth is a great example of the type of dialogue and scenes Harras would do. He could truly convey the sense of history, sense of camaraderie, and sense of progression in a brief second.

- The Proctor & the Gatherers story – although this really comes into play later, the beginning of this story was also very well-done, full of intrigue and mystery and adding a whole new angle to what was to come. Between this ongoing storyline and Operation: Galactic Storm and its ramifications (specifically the follow-up Kree story which I thought was even better), Harras was able to keep two running threads going throughout his run.

- Swordsman II and Magdalene – I like these two characters as well, and I like how they interact with the Avengers throughout. The Swordsman is cool here (for the first time ever in the history of the character) and I’m glad to know they’re out there somewhere (Busiek sent them *somewhere* in his Avengers annual). I like that Harras introduced new characters like Stern and Englehart before him, even if they are generally seen as ‘his’.

- BTW, I love that Moondragon/Mantis bit the Swordsman drops in. There’s all kinds of cool stuff like that in these issues.

- Epting’s art – I’m a huge fan of Steve Epting’s art and feel he’s doing his best art today on Captain America. Here it was a pleasure too, and I definitely see the Neal Adams resemblance, though also a John Buscema one too in a way. It was a very different kind of art when compared to everything else at the time (unfortunately, Mike Deodato’s art that followed didn’t do it for me, though I generally like his art when he’s ‘reigned in’.)

Also, a word on Thunderstrike/Eric Masterson – well, just like I’ve read the entire Spidey run many times, I’ve also read the entire run of Thor comics from his very start to the current issues a few times. Where I generally hated Eric Masterson at first, I’ve come to love all the eras of Thor, no matter how bad they got—and man, where there some really crappy eras. So, its funny, but I’ve come to have a soft spot for Eric, though I didn’t like it when Thor was ‘Thor-lite’ with Eric at the helm. Rereading the Harras Avengers issues though, I kind of like that he was there for a bit before they got rid of him. The problem with Thunderstrike was that he was honestly just ‘filling Thor’s spot’, so when the real deal finally came back, which was needed, Thunderstrike had to stand on his own, which he couldn’t. I wish somehow he could’ve, but that’s here nor there.

One little point on the art - I thought and think Tom Palmer's inks were a really bad mismatch with Epting's pencils. Take a look at Epting's fill-in on Uncanny X-Men #319 where Dan Green & Tim Townsend inked the pencils very lightly to see what I mean.

The Harras era was my first "real time" Avengers reading, too. I had been raised on funny-animal comics, and I only got into superhero comics right after I graduated high school. Along with Peter David's Hulk, Alan Davis's Excalibur, Alan Grant & Barry Kitson's L.E.G.I.O.N., and Mark Waid's Flash, it's still just as much of a good read today as it was back then, maybe better. That doesn't hold true of other comics I was reading at the time (to give one example, the Danny Ketch Ghost Rider and the other Midnight Sons books. )

Absolutely. Thanks to Harras, we had:

- A Sersi who was intense and moody without ever losing her sense of style or her sense of humor.

- A Black Knight who was bold and assertive, rather than reactive.

- A Hercules who was still a ferocious warrior, but who had actually learned from his lessons in humility during the Stern Era.

- A Vision who slowly regained the personality that Byrne had stripped him of.

And of course...

Once again, I totally agree. As written by Harras, Crystal took responsibility for her selfish actions in Steve Engelhart's stories and searched for redemption by joining the Avengers. She was a kind person, a loving mother, and a kick-ass superheroine all at once; I would say she went so far as to inspire me to try to be nicer and less selfish! Not bad for a fictional character.

It's sad that, to paraphrase something Reboot said earlier in this thread, the only thing anyone at Marvel remembers about her today is that she cheated on Quicksilver. No, it's more than sad, it's a crime.

I don't completely disagree about Palmer's inks over Epting's pencils, but I think there were more instances of Palmer retaining Epting's essence than of Palmer overwhelming Epting. I think the main problem is that Epting is simply once of the most difficult artists to ink, and I've never been 100% pleased with anyone's work. Al Williamson preserved the delicacy of Epting's pencils, but he also tended to oversimplify; Rick Magyar kept the amount of detail right, but his lines tended to be stiff where Epting's linework is fluid. Really, Epting's best inker is Epting himself. Here's a good example:

OPERATION: GALACTIC STORM


When I think of Operation: Galactic Storm, I think grandeur, I think colorful spectacle...but most importantly, I think space opera with substance, tragedy on an epic scale, and one of the most daring endings ever published in a mainstream superhero comic book.

Despite being spread out across 19 (!) issues (22 if you count the epilogues) of 7 different comics (Avengers, Avengers West Coast, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Quasar, Wonder Man), there are hardly any wasted panels at all. Unlike Marvel’s earlier attempts at this kind of mega-crossover – Evolutionary War in the 1988 annuals and Atlantis Attacks in the 1989 annuals – Operation: Galactic Storm has a tightly structured and well-thought-out story. It began with a plot for Quasar’s solo book, which Mark Gruenwald the writer quickly realized was too big for just one book, and which Mark Gruenwald the Executive Editor realized would please the Powers That Be who wanted the next Big Event. Although many writers and editors would work on the story (and, according to Ralph Macchio, even the letterers and colorists contributed story bits), there was a firm creative core in the trio of Gruenwald, Bob Harras, and Fabian Nicieza, who together produced a detailed outline. I personally think that Nicieza (who had no writing credit, and whose only O:GS credit of any kind was as editor of Wonder Man) is the true unsung hero, because later that same year (1992), there was another surprisingly good mega-crossover, the X-Cutioner’s Song in the X-Books, and that one was mostly Nicieza’s baby.

Operation: Galactic Storm is a sequel of sorts to the Kree-Skrull War – once again, there are two alien empires fighting, with Earth caught in the middle – but there are crucial differences: 1) This time it’s the Kree vs. the Shi’ar with the Skrulls in a sneakier (but important) position, and 2) This time there are a clear beginning, middle, and end – a particularly powerful ending which carries overtones of America’s bombing of Hiroshima during World War II.

This story is also notable for its cast of thousands: almost everyone who was ever an Avenger, plus guest appearances by Rick Jones, Her, Carol Danvers (as Binary), and the Starjammers, plus Kree villains varying from vintage (the Supreme Intelligence, Ronan the Accuser) to new (Captain Atlas, Korath, Shatterax) to ultra-obscure (Ultimus, Dr. Minerva), plus the Skrulls including Super-Skrull, plus the Shi’ar Imperial Guard a.k.a. Marvel’s Legion of Super-Heroes (including brand-new analogs of Dawnstar, Karate Kid, Rond Vidar, Matter-Eater Lad, and Bouncing Boy), plus Shi’ar Empress Lilandra and her mad sister Deathbird. Amazingly, out of all of these characters, there is not one who doesn't serve a purpose!

The extensive use of characters from the insular X-Corner of the Marvel Universe (authorized by Bob Harras in his role as X-Editor) has been criticized, which I think is ridiculous. Why should the X-Creators be the only ones to play with those beautiful Dave Cockrum-designed toys? Besides, as I said earlier in this thread, almost all of the key players of the Kree-Skrull War had been introduced in the pages of Fantastic Four, and no one complained about that.

As much as I love Operation: Galactic Storm, it’s not perfect, not with so many cooks at the same pot. The scripting varies wildly in quality, and the three Avengers tie-ins drawn by Steve Epting (# 345-347) are arguably the only good art. But, like the Celestial Madonna Saga, which also had a lot of dodgy art, it holds together as one sprawling epic of a story, and it stands the test of time. And now that Operation: Galactic Storm is finally available in trade paperbacks (two volumes), it can be appreciated by generations to come.

Finally, if only for the sake of completeness, here’s a checklist of all the issues:

Part 1: Captain America #398; Part 2: Avengers West Coast #80; Part 3: Quasar #32; Part 4: Wonder Man #7; Part 5: Avengers #345; Part 6: Iron Man #278; Part 7: Thor #445; Part 8: Captain America #399; Part 9: Avengers West Coast #81; Part 10: Quasar #33; Part 11: Wonder Man #8; Part 12: Avengers #346; Part 13: Iron Man #279; Part 14: Thor #446; Part 15: Captain America #400; Part 16: Avengers West Coast #82; Part 17: Quasar #34; Part 18: Wonder Man #9; Part 19: Avengers #347; Epilogue 1: Captain America #401; Epilogue 2: Quasar #35-36.

One thing about those Avengers O:GS issues that really bugged me - Epting kept drawing Quasar with a gas mask. He didn't need one (and if his Q-bands improbably failed, he was in a lot of trouble with or without air) and the rest of the artists followed their references and left it off, meaning it only appeared in the Avengers chapters even when the action ran continuously in or out.

A few other things were wrong too - apparently no-one outside the Iron Man comic itself was aware of Iron Man's seriously poor state of health (most egregiously in the Cap epilogue, where he appears out-of-armour).

Still, good story overall indeed.

Avengers Volume One # 348-357

Following Operation: Galactic Storm were some 1- and 2-part stories with the subplots sailing smoothly – in # 348, the Vision continues to evolve as Crystal becomes his confidant, while Black Knight and Hercules encounter Magdalene’s Earth-616 counterpart only for her to be “gathered” (erased from existence) by Proctor and Magdalene; in # 349, Hera and Ares make a wager to see who can bring Hercules more sorrow, right at the same time as Hercules begins to fall in love with a mortal woman, Taylor Madison (sadly, this subplot wouldn’t be resolved until after Epting had left and the book’s quality was in freefall); in # 350-351, two of the Starjammers, Raza and Hepzibah, are hired by a renegade Kree to assassinate the Black Knight as payback for his actions in Operation: Galactic Storm (this is a very good story, even though the second half is drawn by a different art team.)

Next is a three-part fill-in story arc, giving Harras, Epting, and Palmer a chance to catch their breath. When they come back in # 355, they continue to prove that they’re not interested in bringing back the same old super-villains by giving us the full team of Proctor’s Gatherers (Magdalene, Swordsman, Cassandra, Spoor and Coal Tiger), each one from a different alternate universes which were all destroyed under circumstances to be revealed much later; this issue also introduces Sersi’s new black-and-red costume, far less revealing and far more flattering; plus there’s a great scene where the Black Widow plays matchmaker for an unusually indecisive Hercules.

# 356 is a special issue to me, because it was the first issue of Avengers that I bought off the spinner rack instead of the back-issue bin; in it, the Avengers pursue the Gatherers to Wakanda, where they intend to “gather” Coal Tiger’s Earth-616 counterpart, the Black Panther! Great scene where Magdalene outfights the Vision, and some nice shades of grey from the Swordsman, who at the end is the one Gatherer captured by the Avengers.

# 357 is one of my favorite Avengers issues of all time: there’s no fighting in it, just a lot of great character moments giving Epting a chance to prove that, among Avengers artists, only John Buscema and George Perez are his equals when it comes to characterization. The Crystal/Black Knight/Sersi love triangle is in full bloom, the best of its sort since Scarlet Witch/Vision/Mantis. There’s also the memorable interrogation of the Swordsman which we’ve already mentioned earlier in this thread. And, most importantly, there’s the Black Widow organizing a celebration of the one-year-anniversary of this Avengers lineup. Thor Substitute is gone, and Captain America (who left temporarily after Operation: Galactic Storm) hasn’t returned yet, meaning that the cover shows none of “The Big Three” and the story proves that the Avengers didn’t need the “icons” to be a good book.

So, this being a likely candidate for ‘My favorite Avengers era EVER’, including all the classic Silver Age #1-16 which has been imbedded as being the best to me since I was a wee pre-teen, I, of course, am late on commenting

As usual, Stealth’s comments are so much fun to read that I’m having as much fun reading them as I did reading the issues originally. My comments in brief:

- Operation: Galactic Storm – In my opinion, this was one of the few times where a Marvel Crossover totally succeeded on all levels (actually I agree about Executioner’s Song—during this brief era, it seemed Marvel started having good crossovers for the first time while DC’s became simply atrocious). The grandeur, the scale and the sheer amount of characters is what makes this, as well as the character scenes shown in each and every panel. Of course, this cemented my love for the Black Knight as a ‘do whatever it takes’ hero, and it also showcased a bunch of heroes throughout with good roles, especially Iron Man, Thor, and even some of the lesser-known like Living Lightning. Though I have most of the issues (missing the Quasar ones), I have to admit right away—I’ve never actually read O:GS the way it should be read, in chronological order. Such an oversight on my part is unforgivable—and will fixed one day! I especially love the use of the Skrulls here, and I think the Kree re-emerged as the ultimate bad-ass alien race in Marvel, only to be devastated, and then all surviving Kree shown since would have an additional scariness to them that added intensity to future stories. I’m also reminded that Wonder Man had his own book, and it reminds me of a recent PM I’ve had with Reboot where we mentioned that—which seems to be totally forgotten by all writers since (and not just Bendis/etc, but even Busiek), since he had some very real character growth in his solo comic. I actually enjoyed it, but then again, I read it when I was 12 or so, so its been awhile.

- In a way, the upcoming Proctor/Gatherers Saga is almost like a sequel to the Celestial Madonna Saga, and this is almost like a sequel to the Kree/Skrull War. I mean that very loosely of course, given the long history of great space drama in Avengers, but I think it speaks to how well done this era of the Avengers was—and it very much stood on its own (I only make those connections now, years later).

- Hercules/Taylor Madison – this was the first time IMO that Hercules truly had a great subplot in Avengers, that showed him as a very real person with the same emotions we all have. Though I think the ending was pretty awful farther down the road, I remember thinking that I really enjoyed this romance, especially the awkwardness seen in Hercules which was so rare for the character (I’m thinking of when she ate at the Mansion).

- Raza and Hepzibah – my favorite two Starjammers show up in a great story, but even more, it further cements the long-standing animosity that all surviving Kree have for the Black Knight. I really wish this could be followed up on, as you would expect tons and tons of survivors trying to make Dane (and therefore Earth) a continual target from here on in.

- Proctor and the Gatherers – here begins the real meat of the Proctor story, and I think everything from here on in until #375 is about perfect. The Gatherers make a very interesting team, and having almost all the rest of them be new to Avengers lore was a good move. Proctor himself is interesting and the evil-Vision subplot and Coal Tiger/Black Panther connection make for some very cool drama. The Swordsman (once caught) proves to be a character with a tremendous amount of depth (and Magdalene does later) and it speaks volumes for Harris writing that he could make an alternate Earth Swordsman such a likeable and interesting character.

- Harris’ continual use of history without dwelling on it. Again, this is probably one of the best aspects of the run, and a good example would be the ‘fake-out’ used to draw out the Avengers when a fake Johnny Storm appeals to Crystal for some help and she recognizes their long-standing relationship/friendship. It was little things like this, jam-packed in every issue, that made the book so much more enjoyable.

- The love triangle – as Stealth says, the Black Knight/Crystal/Sersi love triangle is probably the best Avengers romance subplot since Wanda/Vision/Mantis, complete with all the connecting characters that went along with both. There is a continual intensity that builds and builds each issue, with some very real human moments from all three characters, including Sersi, who is not painted to be a bad-guy despite her gradual shift towards madness. The addition of the Vision regaining his humanity (early on), then Proctor, and later Quicksilver, only further this.

- The line-up here is one of my favorites ever, and I agree that it shows you don’t need the big three. I do like the return of Cap coming up, and I really love the return of Hank Pym as Giant-Man, as well as the help of Swordsman, Magdalene and Deathcry, but the basic six post-O:GS (Black Widow, Hercules, Vision, Black Knight, Crystal, Sersi) set the tempo for a very intricate, drama-packed, characterization-filled Avengers line-up.

Oh, and cool tidbit Stealth! I’ve got one too that’s kinda funny. Around the issue where the Avengers are trapped in the snow with the fake Vision captured (and Deathcry first meets them), a very young Cobie (I’d say 13) decided that he was so impressed that I wrote my first letter (and only one) to a comic book, and had my Mom type it out for me. It basically told them that I, so sure of myself as the greatest fan of the Avengers in its history, totally approved of the direction they were taking, enjoyed the Black Widow as leader and wanted to see Dane with Crystal. I never got a reply (or it printed) but it was a pretty cool experience.

PS – in the last few weeks I’ve reread the entire Celestial Madonna Saga, and a large potion of Stern’s run, and I’ve meant to post more in depth comments on them…and will sometime soon

Yeah...Eclipso, Death of Superman, Knightfall -- all the worst things about the 1990s in a nutshell. Whereas, for a while, Marvel was getting almost all the crossovers right, big and small (such as the Hulk/X-Factor crossover during the brief time that Peter David was writing both books.)

"Use of history without dwelling on it." Thank you, Cobie, that sums it up perfectly. Harras always kept such things brief and to the point, unlike some other writers :cough: (Busiek) :cough: who were all like, "Look at me, I'm such a continuity expert!"

That reminds me, I sent a letter to the Avengers editor during that time, too, but I can't seem to remember what I wrote in it. Then again, those were my heady and wild late teens...

Yay! I'm looking forward to that.


One last thing: it's been quite a while since this thread has had any posts about the current state of the Avengers family of books. Even though I don't read any of them myself, I would still like to see some posts about them here, because even though it's wonderful to look back on the classics, I really want this thread to have one foot in the present day.

Celestial Madonna Story
I'm such a lazy reviewer that I should have posted my thoughts when they were fresh about four weeks ago, when I read the entire Celestial Madonna Story--on one Friday night where I took a rare night in. I can say without a doubt that it was *better* than I remembered it being because all of the great things about it were still there, and I noticed even more stuff that I loved about it that got lost in the shuffle the previous time or two I read it.

First, its the little things, the characterization that reinforces how heroic each member of the Avengers was, while also showing how certain Avenger's had certain traits. One of the most powerful scenes to me was that Thor gave the Swordsman eulogy at his funeral, and it was actually quite poignant. Thor talked about living as a mortal vs. an immortal, and how the Swordsman hard life was culminated in a very heroic death. I thought it was very well done. I loved how Englehart played Thor and Iron Man so well together, but at the same time so well with others, and Captain America too, who weaved in and out of the saga (the same could be said for Black Panther). Englehart mastered the Vision and upon rereading them, I remember why I used to be able to relate to that character so well. Even when things were going right for the Vision, he always had a sense of being an outsider, of thinking he had a limited time before he would ultimately meet a final end. That's a feeling everyone can relate to I think.

Though the first half of the Saga, complete with the four way triangle of Wanda/Vision/Mantis/Swordsman have all the best romantic drama, I find myself really getting into the second half, after the Swordsman's death, specifically when they all decide its do or die time--let's find out Mantis' origin. Mantis was both extremely independent and strong, but at the same time had a vulnerability that is very attractive (a quality I'm sure is attractive on both men and women), and it really comes through here. There's a sense that Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye and the Vision are her teammates really backing her up with a true sense of camraderie, that they're in it to the end with her no matter what. Its a very underlying loyalty throughout the second halfof the Saga that I feel is more pronounced when viewed as one complete storyline.

And finally, there's Kang. I've read close to every Kang story there is, and he's been done right many times, and many of them are brillant, from his Silver Age tales (brillance) to Avengers Forever (also wonderful). But I think Kang here is perhaps the best the character ever was. He became *thee* Avengers villain and was much a part of the Saga as half of the Avenger's line-up.

I could probably go on and on for more paragraphs, but I'll stop, as its now four weeks after I read them. But I'll tell you this: I've had a bunch of stories floating around in my head for some time. Although those plots were already formulated, I've kind of used the Celestial Madonna Saga's granduer as inspiration that has rekindled my enthusiasm, and in the meantime have written like four LMB short stories and a 49 page (on MS Word) LMB Onevision. I know, its LMB stuff, but that made it fun Not the ideas mind you, just the overall 'feel' to these Avengers issues, the sense that 'I'm reading something truly amazing and ground-breaking here, and when it ends, I'll be blown away--and sad that it had to end!'.

...had to get our reviews all out of order and retread some old ground

Thank you for your wonderful review, Cobie. I especially liked this observation:

Can't wait to see your reviews of the Stern era.

No worries. I'm a non-linear thinker, anyway.

Avengers Volume One # 358-371

Bringing the Avengers over to Arkon’s dimension for the first time in quite a while, Harras & Epting revisit one of the themes of Operation: Galactic Storm – how literally should the name “Avengers” be taken? This 2-parter (# 358-359) finds Sersi’s behavior crossing over from erratic to dangerous, and as a bonus features one of the few appearances of Thundra where she is not written as a caricature.

The 360s are an extended 30th Anniversary celebration; unfortunately, this being 1993, that meant gimmicky covers and extra pages of filler. But thankfully, the actual stories and art continued to be mostly excellent. First, # 360 introduces two more Gatherers: the shapeshifting Tabula Rasa and the disgustingly creepy Anti-Vision; the Gatherers kidnap Vision to switch bodies with him and Anti-Vision, so that now Vision has a body almost identical to his original one. # 361 is one of my favorite issues, with lots of cool revelations about the Eternals to explain just what is going on with Sersi and what can be done about it, giving Epting a chance to give us his stunning interpretations of the Celestials and the Uni-Mind (yes, he already drew them in the Brethren storyarc, but these renditions are much more polished.) It ends with the love triangle getting sharper: Crystal and Black Knight finally kiss even though the Black Knight has been mind-melded with Sersi. In #362, the Anti-Vision wounds Swordsman and threatens Crystal before Sersi kicks his ass. The next four issues begin with a raid on Proctor’s citadel, where the now-erratic Black Knight defies Captain America in mid-battle and Proctor vanishes after setting the citadel on self-destruct mode and all the Gatherers except Magdalene are apparently blown up; this segues seamlessly into the introduction of Deathcry and the return of renegade Kree-man Galen Kor, this time with his private army of fellow renegades invading Earth along with a fleet of Kree Sentries and a new Nega-Bomb! Desperate for reinforcements, the Avengers draft Magdalene and Hank Pym, the latter returning as Giant-Man and deciding to make it full-time. The last-page revelation of a powerful, supposedly deceased villain as the Kree renegades’ supplier would have more resonance if it hadn’t turned into an unresolved plot thread, but overall this is one of my all-time favorite Avengers storyarcs. I’ve never made any secret that I hated the non-superpowered Hank Pym in that stupid jumpsuit, and I welcomed his return as Giant-Man, in a new costume somewhat reminiscent of Dave Cockrum’s Colossal Boy costume (although the belts and pockets are a very 1990s mistake.) The scene where Giant-Man single-handedly out-fights one of the Kree sentries is a classic Avengers moment, as is this exchange between him and Captain America at the end:

G-M: You know, I’m the only one here who was part of this team when it started way back when...so take it from an old-timer when I say, you did good today, Avengers. You did good.

CA: Amen to that, Hank.

Regarding Deathcry – I’ve always run hot or cold with this character, although I loved the hints at a possible romance between her and Vision. I think the problem was that, later on in Harras’s run, just when he started to give her more depth, was when circumstances derailed the possibility of her evolving further. And Busiek’s infamous criticism of Deathcry amuses me: he said she was a bunch of X-Men cliches, as if Busiek’s own pet character Silverclaw wasn’t a bunch of X-Men cliches herself, right down to the stereotypical “foreigner” speech patterns? :rolleyes:

# 367, a stand-alone, allows the Avengers to catch their breath before the next challenge, and mostly focuses on the Vision’s interaction with the rest of the team as he tries to figure out just who he is and where he fits in. The inside art is weak (Epting & Palmer only did the cover), but the story is good, especially for Vision fans.

And finally, we come to the unfortunate Avengers/X-Men crossover, Bloodties (Avengers # 368, X-Men # 26, Avengers West Coast # 101, Uncanny X-Men # 307, Avengers # 369.) One would think that the creative and editorial teams involved could have come up with something good for the mutual 30th Anniversaries of both teams, but that wasn’t the case here. It does get off to a good start when, after Crystal discovers baby daughter Luna has been kidnapped and is being held in the war-torn country of Genosha (a staple of the X-Books which would take way too long to explain) and the American government doesn’t want the Avengers to interfere, she angrily defies Nick Fury, causing Sersi to remark, “It seems our little kitten’s developed claws! I love it.” But once all the characters arrive in Genosha, the story stumbles without direction from one rote battle to the next. The only thing that I find engaging about the story is Crystal’s love for Luna, and their reunion at the end is very moving.

The next two issues were a 2-part fill-in, followed by the resolution of the Crystal/Black Knight/Sersi/Proctor Saga, which I’ll cover next week.

Avengers Volume One # 372-379

As though Bloodties had never happened, Avengers gets right back on track once the Proctor storyline returns in # 372. The four-part conclusion to this sumptuous epic has so many exciting battles and revelations that I don’t want to spoil them for people who haven’t yet read the Harras/Epting issues (one thing I really hope is that this thread might inspire people to check out these issues.) What I can say is that Proctor has a new band of Gatherers – Rik (as in an alternate-reality Rick Jones), Korg (alternate-reality Thing), Tarkas (alt-reality Karkas?), Sliver (not sure who she’s supposed to be), and Jocasta (self-explanatory, but this one is gold-plated.) This gives Epting yet another chance to display his great sense of character design (to digress for a moment, I forgot to mention before that Crystal got a new black-and-white costume during the early 360s, IMO a great improvement over that blindingly bright yellow number.) And Sersi and Black Knight both seem to be in danger of going over the edge, and we finally learn the origin of Proctor and just who his Earth-616 counterpart really is. Without giving away the ending, I really have to give Harras & Epting credit for tying it all together seamlessly, for providing each key character with important moments, for not overreaching the way creators often do with such ambitious stories, and more than anything for producing a fresh new take on Avengers while still staying true to the spirit of the book, something which nobody who has followed them on Avengers has been able to do since, IMO.

The end of that story was also the end of Epting’s run on Avengers (his last issue was # 375.) Harras stayed on for about seventeen more issues (not counting fill-ins, which included # 376 and # 377), and at first, it looked like his writing would maintain the high standards he had set – # 378 and # 379 brought back the Kree renegades for another go-round, while Deathcry learned some hard lessons about the truth behind Shi’ar legends. The story was strong and the art, mostly by Staz Johnson and Tom Palmer, was adequate except for the last few pages which were drawn (badly) by another penciler/inker team.

The letter column in # 379 informed readers that Epting’s permanent replacement would be Mike Deodato. I can still remember how disappointed I felt at that announcement – up until then, the art in Avengers had been a refreshing alternative to the pseudo-Image style running rampant through the comics industry at the time, and now the book was going to be drawn by a Jim Lee clone. Hoping that maybe Palmer could make Deodato tolerable to me, I bought # 380 and, wow, what a letdown. Not only was Deodato’s art just as unappealing to me as it had been on other books, but the story – some mish-mash about the High Evolutionary and Wundagore – was so bad, I couldn’t believe that Harras’s name was still in the credits. Thinking this might be a fluke, I bought # 381 and it was just as bad. I almost dropped the book right then, but I gave it one final chance with # 384, which was solicited as the resolution to the Hercules/Taylor Madison plot thread. Long story short, that issue was the final straw for me. I didn’t buy an issue of Avengers again until years later.

Looking back on it today, and knowing more about how the comics industry works, I can see what might have contributed to Avengers’ sudden and steep decline: relentless catering to the speculator market whose bubble was about to burst; mega-crossover madness over well-nurtured plots; Harras on his way to the Editor-in-Chief position delegating the plots to Terry Kavanagh; the poisonous influence of DC’s tearing down of Superman, Batman, and Green Lantern; and so on.

Then there was Onslaught/Heroes Reborn, which contributed to my leaving comics for several years – back then, I considered Image “the enemy”, and for Marvel to involve Image’s fading-star creators with their most important titles was just too much for me. I might not have been paying attention, but I don’t recall anyone saying at the time that this would only last one year.

By the time Avengers was relaunched from # 1 with Busiek & Perez, I was mostly ignoring comics. I did buy the odd comic here and there, depending mostly on who the artist was, but it wasn’t until 2005 that I started catching up on what I had been missing. And so, my reviews of Avengers Volume Three will begin next week.

"By the time Avengers was relaunched from # 1 with Busiek & Perez, I was mostly ignoring comics. I did buy the odd comic here and there, depending mostly on who the artist was, but it wasn’t until 2005 that I started catching up on what I had been missing."

I dropped off from Marvel a LOT earlier-- in the case of THE AVENGERS, right at the end of Harras' 1st multi-parter (with Steve Epting). I got pretty much fed up with EVERYTHING Marvel was doing, and for a stretch there, about the only book I bought regularly was-- of all things-- CONAN CLASSICS, reprinting the earliest Thomas-Smith issues which I had never read before. Also, there was a 2-issue FLASH GORDON mini-series by Archie Goodwin & Al Williamson, which must remain one of the most stunningly glorious items to ever come from the company. But before you knew it, I stopped buying any Marvels at all. For several years.

It was at the urging of a good friend and fellow fan that I decided to check out Marvel at all some years later, when Roger Stern decided to FINALLY come back and FINISH (and "fix") the unfinished mess that had been hanging for so long, which led to HOBGOBLIN LIVES! Foolishly, not long after, I checked out some other Spidey titles... within 2 years, I had sworn off the character-- "FOREVER". (Steve Rude notwithstanding.)

However, I did check out FANTASTIC FOUR, IRON MAN and THE AVENGERS when they did "Heroes Return". The FF was amazing-- for all of 3 issues. As soon as I heard Alan Davis was leaving after only 3 issues, I made damn sure I didn't buy #4. And the only new FF's I've bought since are the odd issue drawn by Stuart Immonen.

IRON MAN had me hooked for the entirely of Kurt Busiek's run, as well as Roger Stern's, who sort of finished up what Kurt had started. After that, the book took a bad left turn-- and then got MUCH worse than I could have dreamed. As soon as the story I was reading ended, I was OUTTA there, and have not read a new IM since.

THE AVENGERS was another amazing run. George Perez really showed just how good he'd gotten over all the years he was gone. It was sad when he finally left, but at least this time, he had a nice, long, mostly-"stable" run-- which he never had on the book before.

Alan Davis continued to blow me away with his work... but once again, he left FAR too quickly! Kurt Busiek may be complimented on the real "epic" he created with Kang this time out, but once Davis left, the art was on shaky ground all the way thru to the end. And damn, did it take a LONG time to reach the end. I also feel Busiek went too far. What he had Kang responsible for this time just went over way too many lines. This would have been "okay" in my book, had this been planned, definitively, as the LAST-EVER Kang story. It wasn't. The bastard got away at the end! No F****** way that guy should have been still ALIVE by the end of the story!!! When are they gonna get it into their heads that you don't need to keep villains alive forever to ensure their longevity? Ian Fleming killed EVERY ONE of James Bond's baddies-- except for Blofeld, in their first-and-only appearance. Some villains are much better when you kill 'em off at "the end".

I checked out Geoff Johns' run... was SEVERELY disappointed. The art sucked as well, as I recall. Then Olivier Copiel came along... and didn't realy add anything to THE AVENGERS. His presence served ONLY one function-- to TAKE AWAY from DC's LEGION book, which was FINALLY kicking real ass for the first time in years at that point. I suppose whoever decided to hire him away from DC might be looked at as partly responsible for the current LEGION "reboot", which made ME stop buying that book for the first time since I began buying it regularly back in 1978.

That's the first I've heard about it. I'll definitely put it on my list of back issues to search for. The Star Wars Team Supreme on Flash Gordon...sounds awesome.

Yeah, Hobgoblin Lives was one of the few bright spots during the final year of my first love affair with superhero comics. Stern's Post-1980s work is hit-or-miss to me, but that one really clicked.

Have you read the Invaders story arc that Roger Stern wrote, Steve Epting penciled, and Al Williamson inked? It was serialized in Marvel's short-lived anthology series titled Marvel Universe, and it is OUTSTANDING! I'm not generally an Invaders fan, but a high-quality creative team like that would make just about anything a must-read.

I haven't read either writers' Iron Man issues. There's a Busiek interview on the net from shortly after he left Iron Man, where he talks about how he had wanted the book to be what it was like during the Bill Mantlo era -- which I interpreted as, "pretend like the two Bob Layton eras never existed!" To a hardcore Layton era fangirl like myself, that's heresy!

I'll get into this in more detail in my reviews, but I have to say that IMO Perez's art carried the first three years of Avengers Volume Three through many rough patches where the stories were lacking.

I recall reading somewhere that Davis left because he didn't like the way Busiek had crowded the book with obscure or semi-obscure members. That seems kind of funny to me, given that Busiek's attitude for the early part of Volume Three seemed to be "only the big guns count." That sure came around to bite him on the ass. LOL

Again, I'll get into this in more detail in my reviews, but I think that that so-called "epic" is the biggest waste of space since bloody Korvac.

Yep. Whose idea was it to have Kieron Dwyer draw most of the key issues?? His art is horrible!

I agree. The villain resurrection that particularly pisses me off is Zemo Junior. When Roger Stern had him go splat on the sidewalk at the end of the Masters of Evil story arc, that should have been the end of that. Instead, Gruenwald resurrected him, Busiek pushed him to the forefront through Thunderbolts, and Nicieza tried to turn him into a bloody anti-hero! Now he has his own mini-series. Enough already!

I haven't read Johns' run, because it seems like even Johns' most hardcore fans don't like it. Re: the art -- Kieron Dwyer strikes again. :rolleyes:

Finally, I would like to reiterate that I would really like to see some posts about the current Avengers, like we had at the beginning of this thread. Mighty Avengers is coming out soon, among other things. I'm planning to browse through (but not buy) the first few issues of Mighty Avengers just out of curiosity to see what happens with...

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Ultron.</span></span>

Davis left because he was only ever contracted for six issues while Kilraven (IIRC) was in limbo. Similar story to his three-issue F4 stint a few years earlier.