Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Re: Protector of the Universe

When I made that post about Monica and Quasar, I wasn't thinking objectively. That's because, about one year ago, I outlined and plotted what was intended to be a series of fanfics that took place in an alternate MU timeline where the divergence occurs right at the end of Stern's Avengers run. Monica and Quasar was one of those fanfics. Now, the only fanfic that actually got written was the first one, because I parted acrimoniously with the website where I had planned to post them (long story short: one of that site's mods was a crazy person who played mind games on me). In my outline, which I still have, we discover the actual source of the extra-dimensional energy that gave Monica her powers, and we see her on a solo cosmic adventure where she cements her status as Mar-Vell's true successor. So, up until I read Reboot's reply, I hadn't been looking at Monica from the perspective of MU Earth-616 continuity. That's just the way my mind works sometimes.

Re: Rita/Yellowjacket II

Since I never followed any incarnation of Guardians of the Galaxy, I know next to nothing about Rita's stint with the GotG, although I was aware of it (and I didn't read The Crossing, either, because after Steve Epting left Avengers, it quickly became obvious that Harras on Avengers without Epting was like Marv Wolfman on New Teen Titans without George Perez.) If what Reboot says is true and it would be that easy to bring Rita back, then I hope that, in the future, somebody does just that (and maybe, if I get REALLY lucky, it'll be me.) I think Rita has tremendous potential, and she is a major star of the fanfic outline I mentioned before (among other things, she becomes yet another ex-villain to join the Avengers.)

Re: Nebula and 1990s Thanos and Kang divergences

First of all, while I agree that Nebula's claim to be a blood relation of Thanos was not one of Stern's better ideas (I think the only explanation for stealing the Sanctuary II should have been simply because it was a damn powerful battleship), I think that the way that Starlin had Thanos burn her alive and turn her into a zombie and humiliate her was tasteless, mean-spirited, and misogynistic, and I think Ron "Worst Misogynist in Comics" Marz added insult to injury by turning her into a bald-headed cyborg. Is it any wonder no one has taken her seriously as a villainess since? Secondly, and on a more personal level, it is my opinion that Starlin's early 1990s Thanos stories (including and especially Infinity Gauntlet) are take-the-money-and-run hackwork of the worst sort. Sure, they sold lots of copies, but that doesn't make them good. I lost a lot of respect for Starlin because of those stories (although I can still read and enjoy his 1970s Mar-Vell/Warlock/Thanos stories and his 1980s Dreadstar stories). Finally, it's kind of funny to me that the subject of the Kang divergences has come up, because in my opinion, that's the solution for re-inventing Nebula -- if Ravonna posed as Nebula, then it could just be that the victimized Nebula was a Ravonna divergence that stayed in the 20th/21st Century, and there are many other Nebulas running around in the time-space continuum.

Re: 1980s Englehart

While I respect Prof's unfavorable opinion of Englehart's 1980s work, I do feel I must point out that Englehart was the first writer to try to evolve Crystal beyond being a two-dimensional princess (in Vision & Scarlet Witch and in FF) and that, while Harras deserves most of the credit for Crystal's evolution, it was Englehart who got the ball rolling (and Harras fully acknowledged the changes Crystal had gone through in Englehart's stories.)

Oh, and a couple more things -- 1) I was overjoyed when I read the Annihilation spoilers at Wikipedia.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Drax the Destoyer FINALLY killed Thanos!</span></span>

YES!!

2) In answer to Lardlad's question, the impression regarding Nebula that I got from the Annihilation spoilers is that she was used as nothing more than cannon fodder.

Avengers Volume One # 255-269 & West Coast Avengers Volume Two # 1-10

I’ll add just a few brief comments about things in general:

John Buscema – What’s more enjoyable for a long-time fan of Avengers or Thor than reading an Avengers or Thor comic with Big John as the artist? Really, Buscema’s art was always welcome and it was nice to see his continued involvement with Marvel Super-Heroes.

Nebula/Terminus/Savage Land/etc. – Man, I really have to reread this following your comments Stealth. While I read it long ago and know the basic plotline, I don’t think I’ve ever given it the reread it deserves. I like Nebula a lot too and remember thinking a big ‘WHOA!’ when I first read about the destruction of the Savage Lad, Lemuria, etc.

Secret Wars II – possibly Marvel’s worst idea of the 1980’s. In almost every crossover with one of Marvel’s comics, you could just feel it being bad. Remember that building turned to gold in the Spider-Man issues?

Sub-Mariner – Though I often see myself as a more traditional fan, I like to believe I’m flexible in letting great stories move the MU and DCU forward (so long as their great of course). I generally never thought Namor could be an Avenger, but I really loved his run as an Avenger during Stern’s term as writer. Namor has such a rich history in the MU, having a unique relationship with almost every single major Marvel hero that in theory, there should almost never be a bad Sub-Mariner comic (a theory of course, which was shot to hell ). I liked him here.

Black Knight – I’ve said before a bunch of times how much I love this character, and he’s by far one of my favorite heroes in any universe. If I was writing Avengers (or even Defenders) I would include him without question, and I’ve actually got tons of Black Knight (and Crystal) stories bouncing around in my head for the last ten years or so. I really liked him during Stern’s run, though I didn’t like the potential Dane/Wasp romance.

Female Yellowjacket – though I also am only limited to her Avengers appearances, I remember being intrigued by her when I was a wee lad, when I first saw her on a cover for the Avengers Annual with the High Evolutionary holding a bunch of Avengers in a ball (with Beast, Hulk, Falcon, etc.). I would really have to see more of the character to get a genuine opinion of her, but I like the idea of a female Yellowjacket so Hank Pym never become Yellowjacket again (I really think Hank should be Goliath, and just Goliath, once and for all).

Jean Grey’s return – bad move Marvel. Very bad move. But despite her later appearances in X-Factor still being annoying, she sure was written great in a lot of 90’s stories (again, this shows another 90’s thing I liked, so I’m beginning to see that my earlier generalization of the 90’s was pretty unfair), so I guess what was done was done. Then Grant killed her off again a few years ago, so I say once more ‘what’s done is done’. Jean should stay dead now.

Kang – generally, I’m not too bothered by all the Kang craziness of the last 40 years, b/c I really enjoyed Busiek’s Avengers Forever mini, which did a great job of clearing up a lot of stuff and giving us a great Avengers tale. While I can see the annoyance of many others with understanding, not many Kang stories leave too bad a taste in my mouth given I know that in continuity Kang’s story would continue (in the eyes of the Avengers) in Avengers Forever. Actually, I take that back—Avengers: the Crossing was pretty horrendous.

West Coast Avengers – I admit now that my WCA knowledge is nowhere near what it is to my Avengers Proper knowledge, or other longtime Marvel series. I’ve read the entire run once, with a few gaps in it. It was cool that there was a place for mainstay Avengers to be spotlighted by (1) it was weird and (2) awful things happened to a lot of longtime Avengers because they were stars of the book (not making excuses or agreeing with them, its just what happened).

Still more greatness to come for the Avengers Proper during this era…

Ah, fanfic. Gotcha - I've done that sort of thing myself a few times (the number of times I've typed Leonard McCauley on Legion Wiki and had to go back and correct it later...)

Okay, Thanos-with-Infinity Gauntlet was fooled. Yeah yeah, uh-huh. Have I mentioned recently how Reset Buttons sucketh mightestly?

Let's narrow it for a moment to the IG (and run-up thereto) stuff, since I haven't read the later appearances (presumably in Silver Surfer) where she was cyborgised. You've been handed Thanos, Back From The Dead. He's mightily P.O.ed at Nebula for stealing his ship and, worse, pretending to be his blood-descendent. Remember that this is the guy who Loves Death - he's not going to consider killing someone a punishment. Moreover, Thanos is the bigger villain, so he needs to win - if he can't beat Nebula, what chance has he got against *insert better-known and probably more powerful character here*

A+B = Zombie Nebula.

And I know someone who, while he likes the Harris stuff with Crystal (& Quicksilver), absolutely despises the Englehart Crystal stuff, since it pretty much doomed the character to be... well, let's just say he really hated the stuff with Crystal & Sentry in New Avengers, and sees it as pretty much an inevitable outgrowth of the sort of thing Englehart did with Crystal there, since characters' stories have a tendancy to loop (see Hank Pym for pretty much the most egregious example of this, where he's been utterly defined by That Shooter Story ever since).

[I can't say for myself - I've never read V&SW or that era of FF except the Hulk-crossover FF350]

Not cannon-fodder, but not a major role either.

One of these things though - the Harris BK was a far more ends-justify character, and probably more interesting for it. I get a very "Lite" vibe off the Stern BK

The thing about it is that it breaks down to "Jean is interesting, post-DPS Phoenix is not."

So, obviously, you've got writers like Morrison and Land who define her as Phoenix; and that leads to Phenominal Cosmic Boringness.

*just wants to point out that Iron Man/Cap: Casualties of War referenced the Crossing - and said Kang was behind it, against the AvFor retcon*

And, Avengers Forever #12, AF12... you've got Immortus getting physically ripped out of Kang for... uh... some reason (I ***REALLY*** don't like "strength of will" as a plot device unless you've got something to back it up. A telepath versus a bunch of telepathic brains and winning through strength of will†, I can buy. Someone getting shot by a gun and the gun doing something completely different from what it's supposed to because of it's target's "strength of will".... ummm....).

And then you've got an Immortus who remembers being the Immortus who got killed, yet is meant to be before that Immortus to become that Immortus later, yet that means you've got an Immortus who remembers being that Immortus, yet becomes the Immortus who gets killed only to become... my head hurts.

† - spot the reference

"after Steve Epting left Avengers, it quickly became obvious that Harras on Avengers without Epting was like Marv Wolfman on New Teen Titans without George Perez"

I can see that, having read all of Harris' S.H.I.E.L.D. work-- though that comparison seems like an insult to Wolfman!


"it is my opinion that Starlin's early 1990s Thanos stories (including and especially Infinity Gauntlet) are take-the-money-and-run hackwork of the worst sort. Sure, they sold lots of copies, but that doesn't make them good."

It's a toss-up as to what bugged me most: that there were SO MANY of them (talk about "decompression"-- HAH!), that there were 3 WARLOCK comics going at the same time at one point, or that during each of the 3 crossover minis, there were also COUNTLESS crossovers in just about every other mag, which derailed any hope of consistency in ALL of the books. I was buying very few by then-- DR. STRANGE was one of them, and at the time, Roy Thomas claimed he quit the book in disgust at having it interrupted 3 times for several issues each time. (Just recently, though, he said that had nothing to do with it, and there was a completely different reason he left... though I can't recall what it was. Ever think a lot of people have selective memory?)


"Re: 1980s Englehart"

One of these days-- eventually-- it'd be nice to re-read Steve's run. Having read his comments at his site, I might be able to look at his FF run in an entirely different light. It was apparently the victim of specific tampering and interference on the editorial side, while, when it was coming out, I was under the impression it was a DIFFERENT incident of editorial interference that had caused what I considered the books descent into "drivel". (The earlier issues, presumably, weren't so bad.)


"Annihilation"

Not being up much on Marvel these days, I wasn't sure-- is this "regular" MU, or "Ultimate"?? (I thought it was the latter-- but maybe not...)


"What’s more enjoyable for a long-time fan of Avengers or Thor than reading an Avengers or Thor comic with Big John as the artist?"

Either, with Jack Kirby as the artist?




I now really wish Stan had left John alone so he could have had a long, UNBROKEN run on THE AVENGERS in the late 60's, instead of all those interruptions. Even Neal Adams-- his art looks "WOW!", but his storytelling isn't HALF of Buscema's.


"there should almost never be a bad Sub-Mariner comic"

SHOULD. Early in Bill Everett's early-70's return to his character, there was a letter printed which said, in essence, "after 49 UNREADABLE issues, the book finally got good!" I agreed-- in the extreme. While all of early-70's Marvel went to hell in a morass of gloom and depression, Everett went completely the other way. And he did it with a book that, just before his return, had been possibly the WORST offender in the "hopelessly downbeat" category.

It amazes me that the current AGENTS OF ATLAS has included numerous references to events in Everett's issues-- which I never read until the last 2 years. (It's as if that mini was written just for me!)

The various big events (Annhilation / Civil War) are technically occuring in the mainstream '616' Marvel continuity, but the 616 continuity is now being written by the Ultimates writers, using the 'voices' they established for the Ultimates versions of the characters, and the 616 heroes are increasingly turning into their Ultimates counterparts, who are generally anything but heroes.

Eventually, I'm expecting a Crisis of some sort to come along and eliminate any pretense of them being different universes, so that Xavier and Iron Man and Cap and Reed Richards can be the exact same malevolent dictatorial thugs in the new combined setting.

There was an old 'Death of Phoenix' special once, presenting an alternate version of the story, where Jean was stripped of the powers at the end, which was supposed to be the original ending before some people at Marvel pointed out 'She ate a planet, she can't come back from '11 billion asparagus people die with a horrible scream.''

The quote that always jumped out at me from the interview at the end was that they intended Jean to be depowered, marry Scott and become 'Scott's wife, about as important a character as the left rear wheel of the Blackbird.' That really annoyed me, the idea that Xaviers wonderful dream of humans and mutants living together was written by a bunch of hacks who considered a non-super-powered Jean (and, by extension, human supporting characters, like Kitty's dance instructor, or the dude who kept the grounds, or Angel's girlfriend-of-the-week) to be completely and utterly worthless as a character because she couldn't shoot lightning out of her butt.

Ummm... Keith Giffen's (LoSH, JLI) writing Annihilation, and the lead in minis were written by Giffen, DnA (The Legion), Simon Furman (Transformers) and a guy I've never heard of.

No-one involved with Annihilation has written any Ultimate book. Ever.

Yeah, Reboot is right, Annhilation isn't written at all like anything in the Ultimate universe and is actually pretty excellent. And its very consistent with past Marvel characterizations and stays true to all characters IMO. Though it may sound like it from interviews, etc., there has been very little cannon-fodder.

Its completely 100% a different animal from Civil War in all ways.

Prof:

Re: Jack Kirby...Agree 100%

Re: Sub-Mariner comics...also agree. Subby's had a lot of bad stories over the years (but really, all the great longtime characters have)! Its so odd to see someone with so much potential have so many bad stories in different generations, but thats the way it goes. Not too much of a complaint, at least he got to kick some ass in most of them

From Comics Continuum :

Christopher Yost is writing Marvel Studios' and Lionsgate's Teen Avengers direct-to-video animated movie.

"the mainstream '616' Marvel continuity"

...which goes to show just how far out of the loop I am, I have NO idea what the hell this means!


"There was an old 'Death of Phoenix' special once, presenting an alternate version of the story, where Jean was stripped of the powers at the end, which was supposed to be the original ending before some people at Marvel pointed out 'She ate a planet, she can't come back from '11 billion asparagus people die with a horrible scream.''"

Not "some people". JIM ******* SHOOTER! (Otherwise known as "Jim 'BECAUSE I SAID SO' Shooter")


The thing that got me about that situation was, reportedly, Chris Claremont & John Byrne had such a breakdown in communication while they were co-plotting the book over the course of about 2 whole years, each thinking something other than what the other was... and they reached this point in the story, and thanks to Shooter's editorial regime in place (assistant editor, editor, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF), everything had to pass thru several people, probably several times, before being approved. The asparagus people (from AVENGERS #4!!) had their planet destroyed, maybe 3 months before the climax of the story. It went by without a hitch. 2 more months went by without a hitch. The climax of the story was almost ready to go to the printers, WHEN SUDDENLY, Jim "BECAUSE I SAID SO" Shooter stuck his nose in and said "HOLD IT...!"

In interviews afterwards, I do believe Claremont and Byrne said they felt the resulting story was better than what they intended. Personally, I think they said this because they wanted to keep their jobs. Shooter eventually got fired, not them, so I guess it worked!


(I dunno, until very recently, I never USED to be this nasty about the guy...! I guess my cynicism must be on the rise.)

Excellent. I'm always glad when I'm able to inspire somebody to read or re-read an underrated Avengers story. And do please share your thoughts on it in this thread when you're done re-reading it.

That is most definitely not what I was trying to say. Harras and Epting worked very closely on Avengers, just as Wolfman and Perez did on New Teen Titans. This kind of chemistry galvanized the plots in such a way that even the ocassional guest artist could not stop the momentum. But when Epting and Perez both left, neither of the successors had chemistry with the writers. In NTT's case, it wasn't a question of the artwork: Perez was replaced by Eduardo Barreto, a superb artist, but the chemistry just wasn't there and the stories suffered (Harras was even less lucky that Wolfman -- he got stuck with Mike Deodato during Deodato's "Jim Lee Clone" phase.) Finally, I think that to dismiss Harras's Avengers stories on the basis of having read his S.H.I.E.L.D. stories is like dismissing Doug Moench's Master of Kung Fu stories on the basis of having read his Fantastic Four stories.

Avengers Volume One #270-285 & West Coast Avengers Volume Two #11-39

The 270s could be considered one very long storyarc. In #270-271, it appears that many supervillains are organizing for mysterious reasons. In #272, there is a battle against Atlantis (the Avengers teaming with guest stars Alpha Flight), and the Sub-Mariner takes a leave of absence to search for his runaway lover, Marrina; the Avengers have no idea how losing one of their strongest members is going to affect them.

#273 and #274 are two of the finest Avengers issues ever published. First, we finally discover what the villains are up to -- Baron Zemo II, vindictive son of the deceased Zemo I, has organized the biggest, strongest, and scariest Masters of Evil lineup ever: Zemo, Moonstone, Wrecker, Bulldozer, Thunderball, Piledriver, Tiger Shark, Fixer, Mr. Hyde, Goliath, Blackout, Absorbing Man, Titania, and Yellowjacket II (plus Grey Gargoyle and Screaming Mimi, who are arrested before the plan gets under way, Whirlwind, who is defeated early on by Captain America, and Black Mamba, who gets Hercules dangerously drunk.) As the issue comes to its terrifying end, the MoE have taken over Avengers mansion, with Jarvis as their hostage. Then, in the next issue, the MoE's plan continues to unfold, with increasingly frightening results: Black Knight and Captain America taken hostage, Captain Marvel trapped in the Darkforce dimension, and Hercules beaten into a coma. In addition to the fine-watch precision of Roger Stern's scripts, there is the art of John Buscema & Tom Palmer, which in these issues vaults to an even higher level of quality, as if Stern's story has galvanized them into outdoing themselves.

#275-277 comprise the third act, and while it's not quite as good as the first and second acts, it's still engaging (and stunningly drawn.) #278-279 are an extended coda, in which the Avengers -- left without a mansion after it is destroyed in the battle against the Masters of Evil -- settle on Hydrobase, Wasp volutarily steps down as leader, Captain Marvel succeeds her, and the team is joined by two returnees (She-Hulk and Thor) and one newbie (Dr. Druid, another of Stern's pet characters, but a lame one.) The 270s do have their flaws, but they were, up to that time, the most compelling and cohesive extended run of Avengers since Englehart at his 1970s peak.

#280 is a way, way above-average fill-in (and also the very first Avengers script by Bob Harras) -- despite the bad art, the story is both poignant and uplifting, comprising flashbacks to Jarvis's many years with the Avengers as he recovers from his injuries and ponders retirement...ultimately choosing to not retire.

With Stern, Buscema and Palmer having had a chance to catch their breath, they now dive into a new five-part epic which I think is possibly their finest story: Hercules' father Zeus, driven irrational with rage by his son's fate, wrongly blames the Avengers, and orders the gods who serve him to capture the Avengers and bring them to Olympus to stand trial. Just when it looked like Buscema & Palmer couldn't get any better than they were on the 270s, they actually get even better in #281-285. Buscema comes full circle with his mid-late Silver Age work on the Olympus story from #49-50 by giving us a feast for the eyes, from the finely detailed Olympian architecture to his beautifully individualized renditions of the Olympian pantheon: Zeus, Hera, Artemis, Hephaestus, Ares, Neptune, Pluto, Athena, Dionysus, Apollo, Hermes, Venus...also Prometheus the Titan, who plays a crucial role in the story. Of special note is the battle pitting the four most powerful Avengers -- Thor, Captain Marvel, Namor, and She-Hulk -- against Zeus alone. These scenes should be required reading for superhero writers, because THIS is the way to write a battle between a superhero team and a single, near-omnipotent villain.

Who can say where Stern might have gone from here? It is one of the biggest tragedies in comic book history that Stern was not only fired, but that he was fired at the peak of his creativity. Avengers had reached such a state of perfection that the issues which followed are among those that I refuse to read on principle. So I won't be reviewing #286-304, because I've never seen any reason to witness the heartbreaking spectacle of everything Stern had built for five years being torn down. Walt Simonson made a serious error in judgement by taking on this assignment, but from what I've read in interviews and on the web, Simonson was apparently not prepared for the lack of input allowed or for the lack of available characters for the new lineup. Simonson quit the book once the lineup was established, and less than five issues later, that lineup was history and John Byrne was the writer, beginning a steady stream of mediocrity that I'll elaborate on next week.

Meanwhile, over on West Coast Avengers, Steve Englehart finally put an end to the monster mish-mash and sent the team on an eight-issue time travel adventure. This is the best-known story of Englehart's WCA run, and it encapsulates the best and worst of this run. The basic plot mechanics are undeniably clever and diverting, and Joe Sinnott's inking temporarily got better (although he left the book before the storyarc was finished). What on Earth, then, could have possessed Englehart to write in a subplot about Mockingbird being kidnapped, drugged, and raped? It completely ruins the story!

Post-time travel, the book returned to the usual low-key weirdness -- the Zodiac storyarc and the Iron Curtain storyarc were okay-ish, but not good enough to rise above the art. Sinnott's replacement, Mike Machlan, had done nice work for DC, particularly the early issues of Infinity Inc. But his inking on WCA makes Milgrom's pencils even more mediocre than they already are. Englehart seemed to be gearing up for big changes, dividing the team and bringing in Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Vision...and Mantis! But the usual editorial disagreements brought Englehart's WCA run to an abrupt end.

John Byrne became both writer and artist on WCA, and I refuse to read his issues. Why? Because of what he did to Vision and to Scarlet Witch. The damage to Vision -- the ugly new look and the robotic personality -- was eventually, and very effectively, undone by Bob Harras in Avengers. The damage to Scarlet Witch may have started out as Byrne's typical turn-back-the-clock nonsense -- specifically to rejoin her and Quicksilver with Magneto, just like they were in the early Silver Age -- but the long-term reprecussions were disastrous. Byrne's story directly influenced Bendis (and Bendis has confirmed this in interviews) to turn Wanda evil. And for that, Byrne can never be forgiven.

In an amusing irony, Byrne's exit from WCA was just as abrupt as Englehart's, and it was caused by similar editorial disagreements. Byrne's replacements were the husband-and-wife team of Roy Thomas & Dann Thomas. I've only read a few of their issues, mainly the ones that tied into Operation Galactic Storm and Bloodties, and found them to be lazy and by-the-numbers. WCA was cancelled at the end of the Thomases' run, making the book one which arguably never found any sort of peak, despite running for almost a decade.

"I think that to dismiss Harras's Avengers stories on the basis of having read his S.H.I.E.L.D. stories is like dismissing Doug Moench's Master of Kung Fu stories on the basis of having read his Fantastic Four stories."

Fair enough. Harras's SHIELD was crap of the worst, most destructive sort. I sat thru 6 MONTHS of his AVENGERS without being the slightest bit impressed, EVEN though Epting's art blew me away. Then I dropped the book. That's more of a chance than I gave Tom DeFalco when he took over FANTASTIC FOUR. So many writers had crashed & burned on that book, and I was pretty fed up with it in general. When I heard DeFalco was coming, and feeling as I did that he was (at the time) one of the worst writers to ever have worked for Marvel, I dropped the book BEFORE ever reading a single one of his issues!


"Walt Simonson made a serious error in judgement by taking on this assignment"

I've always felt it was a case of, like Sean Connery in THE GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY: "I wanted the money."

I believe I read at the time that Simonson signed on to do a dozen issues (under Shooter, 6 consecutive issues on a book netted someone a HEFTY bonus). It's possible Simonson stepped into a situation different (and worse) than he expected, but my impression back then was that he went in with a "take the money and run" attitude. As soon as it was over, he was gone. Oddly enough, right after, Mark Gruenwald stepped in to WRITE the book himself. And then HE was gone. Quit? FIRED for incompetence? Who knows? He did his damage, and what he left in place was brushed aside almost as quickly as he had brushed Stern aside a year earlier. (What goes around comes around?)


"Englehart seemed to be gearing up for big changes, dividing the team and bringing in Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Vision...and Mantis!"

Seems like Steve wanted to reunite the team he might have had if Gerry Conway hadn't gotten in the way, all those years earlier.


"But the usual editorial disagreements brought Englehart's WCA run to an abrupt end."

Steve Englehart must be one of the nicest guys in the biz. He's worked with some really 2nd-rate (or 3rd-rate) artists over the years, but always seems to find something nice to say about each of them. But I'm also wondering if he doesn't have selective memory, as things I've read in recent interviews, on his website and in e-mails often contradicts things I read many years ago.

Back then, the general impression I got was that Mark Gruenwald (yes, the same guy who fired Roger Stern) took a PERSONAL dislike of Steve's character, Mantis, and he, along with Ralph Macchio, ORDERED Steve to get rid of her-- only a few months after her return in SILVER SURFER. I was pleasantly surprised by her character evolution in SS, and after never having cared for her at all in the 70's, found she was quickly becoming one of my favorite characters in SS. So her ABRUPT departure just made no sense. On his website, Steve said he had planned her exit anyway, but this is completely at odds with what I read 2 decades ago!

At any rate, shortly after her ejection, Steve's writing DROPPED in quality in ALL his books. It looked to me as if he were pulling a temper tantrum. Reportedly, he had a firm 3-year contract, and there was apparently nothing Gruenwald & co. could do to get rid of him-- while he knocked out almost DRIVEL for the remainder of his contract.

I admit, this view of events may not be completely accurate... but at times I wonder if I'll ever know the real, full truth.

At any rate, "Mantis" (supposedly) came back in WEST COAST AVENGERS just before John Byrne's debut... but Steve always maintained he DIDN'T write those episodes! Between the awful writing and ABOMINABLE fill-in art, it was no wonder I welcomed John Byrne's run on WCA as much as I did. At least-- at first.

I think Byrne draws about the sexiest Scarlet Witch since Dave Cockrum. But what he did to her in his writing... YEESH! Anybody remember the set of advance covers they used to promote Byrne's run? The last cover in the set NEVER appeared. Sometime before that episode appeared, plans apparently changed (Byrne's fault or his editor?) and whatever he had in mind was detoured in a completely different direction. (That was the month he introduced the Great Lakes Avengers.)

As with the regular book, I read WCA out-of-sequence... I actually read Byrne's run BEFORE reading the entirety of Englehart's! One of these days I gotta go back over in in the proper order...

First, an aside to all (especially Stealth): this thread has inspired me to once more reread large runs of the Avengers, and I started this last Friday. Since I’ve read the first 75 issues more than almost anything else in comics besides Spider-Man (including Legion), I started at #101, to really get a sense of Engleharts Celestial Madonna Saga (and as the issues right before he came on are almost like a lead into his run). So, I read the entire thing and beyond, and I will post comments soon, in a separate post. Needless to say, it was even more enjoyable than I remembered and remains one of the greatest eras ever of the Avengers.

Avengers Volume One #270-285
I’ve got some general comments here, as usual:

Stern/Buscema/Palmer – rarely have the Avengers had such a level of talent when all three were clicking. Truly, this was an ‘A’ team and you can see it in each issue.

The Masters of Evil Saga – even a Silver Age fan like myself has to admit that this was definitely the greatest Masters of Evil story ever written, and it really just hits on so many levels. Stern plays to his strengths, with characters having insightful moments that usually don’t, a gigantic cast and intricate plot, tons of action and growing intensity, and just so much more. This was truly one of the Avengers lowest moments and then greatest triumphs. Without a doubt this ensured the continued use over the years of Zemo II, Moonstone and the Fixer, and a bunch of others. Mr. Hyde sticks out as particularly terrifying, to the point where his original self, as depicted in early Thor comics, really comes across. Cap is heroic and its tragic how they try to hurt him and the Black Knight, despite his tough time, comes across great. Thor’s return to the Avengers, at the height of the Simonsin era, is truly an awesome sight, and Stern gets across how Mighty Thor really is.

Now, I don’t think this is the greatest Avengers story ever, and yes, I see the flaws throughout it—the Wasp’s leadership already being touched upon in this thread—but I do really like this story. Its about as action-packed and dramatic as it gets and really was unique for its time. I think many ‘super-villains vs. super-heroes’ team stories have in a way plagiarized this series greatly in the last two decades.

Dr. Druid – I generally agree that this was a Stern ‘pet’ character and he didn’t really interest me much either. I think the first time I really was interested in him was when he died.

Harris/Jarvis story – one of my favorite issues of the Avengers ever. I reread this so many times growing up…it truly is a powerful, smile-inducing tale. Though I always liked Jarvis for hundreds of issues before, this cemented him as one of my all-time favorite supporting characters in comics.

The 270s could be considered one very long storyarc. In #270-271, it appears that many supervillains are organizing for mysterious reasons. In #272, there is a battle against Atlantis (the Avengers teaming with guest stars Alpha Flight), and the Sub-Mariner takes a leave of absence to search for his runaway lover, Marrina; the Avengers have no idea how losing one of their strongest members is going to affect them.

The Olympeus Saga – well Stealth, now you’ve piqued my interest again. . I’ve read this story before and remember enjoying it, but your high praise of it gives me reason to revisit it for the first time in a decade, so I will. I’ll definitely comment sometime soon!

End of Stern era line-up – you know, I didn’t mind this line-up at all, despite how off-beat it was. By the end of Stern’s run, there was no doubt that the Black Knight and She-Hulk were genuine ‘core Avengers’ in the sense that the Vision, Black Panther or Ms. Marvel are (and in the sense that Mantis, Moondragon and many others are not). I tend to put Captain Marvel II/Photon in this category, but as Reboot pointed out earlier, she’s never really appeared much beyond Stern.

The Stern/Gruenwald stuff – wow, I never really heard any of this stuff until Legion World (I’ve heard you both speak of it before). That’s all truly too bad and I hate to hear about problems between creators and editors causing potentially great comic book runs to never see light.

Since you’re not reviewing #286-304, I’ll do it for you Stealth
- #286-299 – generally pretty crappy stuff, despite Simonsin’s usual brand of grandeur. For those of you that did not know, if you wanted to see the Black Knight’s story end, you’d have to check out Thor #390 - #400 for a pretty cool supporting role for Dane in what I consider a very enjoyable epic story (Asgard vs. Set).

#300 - #304 – This was about as stupid as could be, and it became obvious immediately. Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman as Avengers? REALLY?!!! A very cheap marketing stunt and stupid idea, and it was evident immediately and quickly enough undone. Why, that’s as bad as Spider-Man and Wolverine as Avengers. Ooops! Just goes to show, as always, that all the recent things Marvel and DC have done have generally been done before, and usually in the 80’s. As for Gilgamesh…well, we never learned much about him, and he disappeared quickly enough, only to resurface in the 90’s—as a corpse.

I remember that at this time, the X-Men were coming off an awful period where they were stuck in Australia (what a DUMB idea), and Inferno crossed over into the Spidey titles, Avengers, etc., which seemed pretty cool, given it was one of the first crossovers. That was about all that was cool about Avengers #300 - #304.


West Coast Avengers Volume Two #11-39
As I said, I don’t have the same knowledge of the WCA run, and though I read some issues, I didn’t read enough to have a coherent view of the stories. I could probably reread those too (I have access to the issues), but that’s still a maybe. Awful that Mockingbird would be kidnapped and raped, especially since Steve so frequently wrote great female heroes. Then came Byrne, and I also agree that his decisions were awful, in ruining the Vision with only Harras’ later ability to fix the character and make him readable again (although of course, he was no longer the Vision of old, but almost completely different). The Wanda connections with Pietro and Magneto I feel are enjoyable but the ‘Wanda going evil’ stuff never was good when Byrne did it, so it was only ten times worse when Bendis did it with worse execution. Though I guess the blame for that lies squarely with Bendis and Joe Q. It was really around WCA that Byrne’s work had begun to get noticeably worse and less enjoyable.

Really wish I could have read more about Mantis by Steve. I have a Mantis story in my head I've had for years, and I always had a dream where I'd be the writer on Avengers, and big Steve would give me the go ahead with my plans for her.

I did read later WCA issues (much later than #39) towards the end of its run, and I can talk more about them later. Generally, WCA took some lame characters and did some interesting things with them at the end of the run (US Agent, Spider-Woman, War Machine, etc.). So for that it wasn’t all that bad.

"Mr. Hyde sticks out as particularly terrifying, to the point where his original self, as depicted in early Thor comics, really comes across."

I'm reminded of the earlier (?) work Stern did with both The Cobra & Mr. Hyde. In ASM, Cobra escapes from prison, leaving Hyde behind, because he realizes how many times teaming with Hyde has been a disaster. (I get the feeling it was the same issue Peter finally sewed new "underarm webbing" on his costume-- it had been shrinking and finally disappeared for years, Stern took this artists' quirk and made it part of the story by saying the elastic stuff Pete made it out of was hard to find!) In CAPTAIN AMERICA (under Stern, Byrne & Rubinstein-- DEFINITELY an "A" team that broke up way too soon), Hyde escapes prison, hijacks an oil tanker, and plans to detonate it in New York harbor, taking ALL of Manhattan with it-- JUST to make SURE he gets revenge on Cobra, who he believes is hiding somewhere in the city. MONSTROUS, jaw-dropping evil!!!!!


"The Stern/Gruenwald stuff – wow, I never really heard any of this stuff until Legion World (I’ve heard you both speak of it before). That’s all truly too bad and I hate to hear about problems between creators and editors causing potentially great comic book runs to never see light."

The story I read was, Gruenwald got Stern in his office to discuss the next year's worth of issues. Stern went home that weekend to figure out how to make it work. He came in Monday and told Gruenwald he couldn't figure out any way of doing it that wouldn't VIOLATE the integrity of every single character involved. Gruenwald told him, "Fine, then I'll get somebody who can." Stern was out, Simonson was happy to take the money.


"Really wish I could have read more about Mantis by Steve. I have a Mantis story in my head I've had for years, and I always had a dream where I'd be the writer on Avengers, and big Steve would give me the go ahead with my plans for her."

With Gruenwald gone, not only was Stern able to start working for Marvel again, but Steve was eventually able to bring Mantis back, too. Steve has gone on record that any appearances of her NOT written by him "don't count". Who am I to argue?

In-between GIANT AVENGERS #4 and SILVER SURFER, Mantis also appeared in Steve's JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #142 (May'77) and those 2 issues of SCORPIO ROSE --but in both cases, under aliases. She was back at the forefront in Steve's AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST mini-series, though apart from the ONE fill-in issue drawn by Joe Staton, I could barely tolerate the art on most of it (though Steve said he really liked it).

Various posts from Comicboards from Simonson on his first Avengers run (he also finished off the HR-Avengers after Liefeld was sacked):

• Other Reed/Sue posts with no major additional details (not link-fixed): [1] , [2] , [3] , [4] .
• Other posts with no major additional details: Following up [i]Avengers[/i] plots in F4 , Gil\'s headgear , Sarcastic Monica post .

EDIT: Fixing major links to match current Comicboards link schema.

"However, literally just as I was writing the story introducing Reed and Sue into the Avengers, I was told that editorial approval had been withdrawn. Marvel editorial decided that they had to be put back in the FF, and I had to write them out of the Avengers. I'd been working toward a new lineup for Avengers 300 for almost a year by that time and to have it ripped apart at the last second was, to be relatively blunt, fairly annoying."

That seems to match with what Steve Englehart discussed at his own website. Steve wanted the book to evolve, and "retired" Reed & Sue. But about a year later, "editorial" dictated they had to return. The protracted sequence of "dream" stories Steve did after this was his way of thumbing his nose at "editorial"! I'm sure they were not amused... as soon as his 3-year contract was up, he was OUT, and Simonson was in.

Walt's further comments go some way to "explain" what he was doing on the FF at the time. Personally, I kept wishing they'd brought back Joe Sinnott-- Walt & Joe did ONE issue of THOR together (during his 1st run, when Len Wein was writing) that to my eyes was always THE high point of that run, and I would have loved to have seen a LOT more pages that looked like those.

One thing Walt did on the FF that i thought went too far was his "retcon" of Dr. Doom's personal history. John Byrne, during his run as writer, has said that SEVERAL appearances of Doom in various titles that he, personally, did not like, were NOT really Doom, but Doom robots. There was even an extended period during his own run when Doom was apparently in space (thanks to The Beyonder?) and when he returned he set about putting his house in order.

Walt took this a step further-- and WAY past the point of complete absurdity. According to Walt, EVERY single Dr. Doom story since FF #6 had featured a Doom robot, and only the stories Walt wrote featured the "real" Doom, at last returned from DECADES' worth of comics in space. What a LOAD! (This was YEARS before the infamous "Spider-Clone" thing!!!)

I hung around to the end of Walt's run, then said "goodbye" to the book. In originals or reprints, I have every issue from #1 to the end of Walt's run. After that, only the odd ones here and there... I REALLY liked the initial "Heroes Return" issues with Alan Davis art, but when both he AND his writer got bumped due to behind-the-scenes "office politics" (after ONLY 3 issues!!!) I said, SCREW this! Good thing-- I never read a single Claremont issue of the FF...

Actually, if you look at that sequence, the only Doom stories Simonson **actually** retcons into being a Doombot are the Englehart Kristoff-kicked-Doom-out-of-Latveria stories. The rest, he merely has Doom **suggest** that it's kept being Doombots, in response to a badly-phrased comment by the Thing - since "they" kept losing!

EDIT: And, yep:

Prof – as a total Spidey fan (hey, you should stop by my Spidey review thread sometime), I look at that Cobra/Hyde story with Spidey with great fondness! Cobra and Hyde have always been in my top 20 favorite villains of all time (from when I was a wee pre-teen lad reading Silver Age Thor and Daredevil stories) and Stern really used them well in the 80’s. I LOVE that Cap/Hyde story too

I read the Avengers: Celestial Quest mini a few years ago, but remember not really giving it the true read it deserved (don’t you hate when you do that?). I’ll have to reread it again soon, as I just reread the Celestial Madonna Saga—LAST WEEKEND! I’ll have to find some time today (stupid work!) to post some additional thoughts on it. I think there is still tons of room to revisit Mantis without retreading old ground.

Reboot – Thanks for posting those links! It’s interesting to hear Simonsin’s explanation on what he was thinking when he was working on Avengers. I guess, for the most part, that putting Reed and Sue somewhere in a title is an honorable thing to do (though I really don’t like seeing them as Avengers), but this was during that unmemorable (to me) period where Sharon Ventura was She-Thing and the Thing was ‘Spikey Guy’, Crystal was a member, etc. Actually, thanks for the link to the website. Busiek, Simonsin, Harras, etc. all posting is pretty interesting!

Funny thing about the FF members in the Avengers. I always thought Johnny would fit in best and he's the one that has never joined.

I hated Reed & Sue in the Avengers BUT I LOVED Ben in the WCA!!! That was great chemistry.

Depends - out-of-continuity, he's an Avenger in Davis' FF: The End. In-continuity, you're right though.

And, going back to reply to a couple of other bits of prof's post:

Actually, Englehart was booted before the dream stories - but they didn't have a replacement lined up, so they made him fill out his contract. Ergo, the abysmal "John Harkness" dream-stories...

Those were only Simonson-breakdowns though (very loose pencils), with Sinott finishes. Sinott inking finished-Simonson-pencils would have looked a lot more like Simonson's other work - as it was, those issues are halfway to Sinott pencilling & inking.

Davis wasn't bumped - he's said umpteen times he only ever committed to three issues, because he was working on some lots-of-work, short-publication-time projects (might have been JLA: The Nail, which was three double-or-treble-sized issues, come to think of it) and he wanted some issues out that calendar year.

Lobdell, however, WAS bumped, for reasons which have never been entirely clear (I've heard one story most often, but I don't know if I should post it since I can't confirm it...)

"Prof – as a total Spidey fan (hey, you should stop by my Spidey review thread sometime)"

I did read your entire thread. The longer it went on, the more painful it became for me... but that's ME. I didn't want to rain on your parade, since you enjoy the books so much. (I guess I'm just getting too cynical.)


"if you look at that sequence"

Are you KIDDING? It was too painful the FIRST time! I think Walt was completely out of control. That's why I dropped the book after reading it nonstop for 2 DECADES. I knew Walt was better than DeFalco, so NO WAY I was gonna put up with HIM!


"Cobra and Hyde have always been in my top 20 favorite villains of all time"

The very 1st THOR solo story I ever read was the 2nd half of the one about the "house of traps", "The Power Of The Thunder God". I was thrilled to get a copy of that a few years ago, and posted a really nice clean-up of the cover at the GCD...

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=18824&zoom=4


"I read the Avengers: Celestial Quest mini a few years ago, but remember not really giving it the true read it deserved (don’t you hate when you do that?)."

The only "problem" I had with it was, part of it was a sequel to stuff I'd never read, during all those years I stopped reading AVENGERS. Based on Steve's comments, it's possible my never having read all that other stuff was a GOOD thing.

My favorite moment in the mini has nothing to do with the story-- it was when, in part 7 (of 8), the artist blew the deadline, and they got JOE STATON-- Steve's collaborator on GREEN LANTERN CORPS-- to fill in!! So cartoony you'd think he'd be a terrible fit on any modern "Marvel" book, yet in truth, a visual breath of fresh air, and to my eyes, MUCH better than the guy who did the other 7 chapters! I wish Joe had drawn the ENTIRE story.


"Englehart was booted before the dream stories - but they didn't have a replacement lined up, so they made him fill out his contract. Ergo, the abysmal "John Harkness" dream-stories..."

Sounds like PURE editorial INCOMPETENCE to me. All those months and they couldn't find ANY writer to take his place? SHEESH! Steve claims those were pretty much the stories he WOULD have written anyway, except they were framed as "dream" stories to satisfy the editorial dictates. At the time, I just thought he was "writing down" (dumbing down) the book in response to Mantis being ejected from the MU.


"Those were only Simonson-breakdowns though (very loose pencils), with Sinnott finishes. Sinnott inking finished-Simonson-pencils would have looked a lot more like Simonson's other work - as it was, those issues are halfway to Sinnott pencilling & inking."

Yeah? So? THEY LOOK GREAT!!!!!



The rest of that run was pencilled & inked by Tony DeZuniga, over LAYOUTS by John Buscema (boring and ugly as hell) and Walt (less boring, but still ugly). Now, if they'd gotten Tony to draw the book ENTIRELY on his own, THEN it might have looked interesting! 95% (or more) or books Tony has inked over others just wind up looking like a collosal waste of everybody's talent to me. (Ever seen his work on INFINITY INC.? Aaaaaaugh!!!)


"Davis wasn't bumped - he's said umpteen times he only ever committed to three issues, because he was working on some lots-of-work, short-publication-time projects"

Then I blame BOTH Davis AND the editor. I only picked up the series at all because Davis was pencilling. What the HELL kind of "commitment" is 3 ISSUES? (That's like Christopher Eccleston signing on for DOCTOR WHO and going in, in advance, planning to ONLY do ONE season. It's NUTS!)

"" "The Stern/Gruenwald stuff – wow, I never really heard any of this stuff until Legion World (I’ve heard you both speak of it before). That’s all truly too bad and I hate to hear about problems between creators and editors causing potentially great comic book runs to never see light."

The story I read was, Gruenwald got Stern in his office to discuss the next year's worth of issues. Stern went home that weekend to figure out how to make it work. He came in Monday and told Gruenwald he couldn't figure out any way of doing it that wouldn't VIOLATE the integrity of every single character involved. Gruenwald told him, "Fine, then I'll get somebody who can." Stern was out,""


In recent years, Stern has added some details: the core problem was that they disagreed about Captain Marvel -- Stern wanted her to remain leader, Gruenwald wanted her to be replaced by Captain America, in order to boost sales of Cap's solo book (written, at the time, by Gruenwald). Stern refused, insisting that any story with Steve replacing Monica would be racist and sexist. Gruenwald had more power than Stern, so Gruenwald got his way, and IMO Avengers didn't get good again until the Harras/Epting era.

I've also heard a story from another source that Gruenwald wanted to kill off Monica during the Nebula/Terminus Saga!! Luckily, Stern won that particular battle.


"Davis wasn't bumped - he's said umpteen times he only ever committed to three issues, because he was working on some lots-of-work, short-publication-time projects (might have been JLA: The Nail, which was three double-or-treble-sized issues, come to think of it) and he wanted some issues out that calendar year.

Lobdell, however, WAS bumped, for reasons which have never been entirely clear (I've heard one story most often, but I don't know if I should post it since I can't confirm it...)"


Could you please PM the story to me, Reboot? I always like finding out the behind-the-scenes stuff, good or bad.

"I've also heard a story from another source that Gruenwald wanted to kill off Monica during the Nebula/Terminus Saga!!"

Sounds to me like he had a bad "thing" about other people's characters. He wanted Monica killed; and he wanted Mantis GONE, permanently! (Mantis, of course, did return... after Gruenwald was gone, permanently. Sigh...)

*choke* I hope its the actual issues of Spidey's mag and not my reviews that were painful! I tend to be overly possitive and upbeat when reviewing Spidey, but I understand how people could not be completely thrilled with some of those eras...