Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Justice League

Read both reviews and I'd have to agree with the negative comments on the dialogue. I've felt the same since reading Superman/Mo'nel but they kind of cover that by playing Mo'nel out as a "foreigner." Dialogue has never been a big distractor for me though so the story shines though.

I also agree with one of the comments made by a reader of the Newsarama article. Just because the writer thought it easy to make wise-cracks about elements of the story doesn't mean those wise cracks hit home. For me, as I read the article they came across strained.


Justice vs. Revenge

Most people, when they cry for "justice" are IMO crying for revenge. They talk of closure when the "eye-for-an-eye has occurred even many years later. I guess I've never been able to sustain the emotion of a deed done wrong for me to want "revenge" more than in the moment but I think that's not the norm.

The reviewer's complaints about showing the losses of these heroes or that they're looking for revenge, not justice, did not register with me because the reviewer was lazy, he did not define a difference.

There's a very fine line between justice and revenge, to the point that in many instances they become synonomous. The difference to me is that "justice" is impartial, while "revenge" clearly is not. That's why it is so crucial that judges in court can be entirely neutral and dispassionate in how they guide a case through trial. However, since a judge is human, there is always a very real danger that they may have some sort of bias develop as the case progresses.

If Robinson is smart, as I know he is, he's looking to explore that fine line through the course of this mini. I think the clearly partial Newsarama reviewer might have missed the entire point there.

For the record I've never really felt that Robinson's dialogue (and his narration, to an extent) has ever been one of his strengths as a writer. If anything, it tends toward verbosity and exposition just this much on the good side of the Claremont scale. I think Robinson's been working on that a little more lately but may have fallen a little too far the other way. So I wasn't exactly looking for sparkling banter in a Robinson comic in the first place.

I dont know Robinson but this exploration was my first thought also.

Again, IMO this exploration is a bit of a hero book chestnut but I think Hal's observation of the shadow cast by the big three, is the new spin.

Hal simply stated, he's the "law" and that it's his job to protect. Any policeman would make the same statement. Superman extrapolated that to judge and jury. Hal made no confirmation of that. This scene also confirms to me that Supes understands and is comfortable with that shadow, he felt comfortable speaking for the others.

If this becomes a "Black Adam" remake, I think I'll end up putting this in the fail category. If the writer can come up with an unexpected understanding of the difference between revenge and justice, it will be epic.

Yeah, if this were to all boil down to the stereotypical hero scene of Hal or someone poised to deliver a deathblow than either holding back or being talked out of it, this story would be a waste of time. Hopefully, we won't get something so cliche.

That's what I thought from the opening scene- Hal wanted the League to hunt down Libra and his group, bring them in for justice, not wait around for them to pop up again.

Why was there such opposition?

Wow, I've been reading comics with Hal, Barry, Ollie, etc. for 30+ years, and I can't agree here. They've moved on, as characters. Shoving them back onto the team just feels old, to me.

Kyle Rayner is, IMO, the definitive Green Lantern of earth now. Hal didn't just get replaced (many times), but he turned into a mass-murdering psychopath. I'm real fond of a good redemption story, but there's gotta be a line somewhere, or else the Justice League might as well invite some of those people who have murdered many, many less other people, like the Joker and Lex Luthor and Doctor Light (the one with the beard).

No 'yellow fear entity' retcon is going to salvage this character for me, and I had many years to get used to a League without Hal, Ollie or Barry, and to develop a fondness for characters like Kyle and Wally.

I'd be fine with a new Green Lantern, Flash or Green Arrow being a female character, for that matter, with Arrowette or the super-speed girl seen in Justice Society from time to time taking on the mantle of these legacies, rather than have their deaths cheapened by a resurrection that is followed by six months or a year of the character farting around and doing nothing of significance, leading me to wonder why the hell it was so urgent to bring the character back to life, if they couldn't be arsed to *write for them.*

And here we agree. Arsenal was an awesome name, and Roy is a great character. I liked how he was moving away from being 'archer-jr' and becoming an expert with an array of other weapons and fighting techniques, all development that seems to have been thrown out the window by his 'Red Arrow' phase. It's a huge step back, and, IMO, the same sort of step back it was to bring Hal, Barry, Ollie, etc. back.

[Awesome new Green Arrow? The hawt Asian zen archer introduced in Longbow Hunters!]

I'm just as disappointed by Nightwing becoming Batman (since, IMO, Nightwing has been a more interesting character for well over a decade).

All of these characters feel like they are abandoning their own identities to take on 'corporate branding.'

eh, just on a technicality, but wasn't it some inhabiting entity that was the mass murderer, as opposed to Hal Jordan? I don't follow these things close enough to get the details but I seem to recall from a GL series last year or so, them mentioning a ION entity and a Paralax entity.

Beyond those mentions, I'm not clear on what that means as far as being "inhabited."

Yes, BB, GL: Rebirth essentially placed the blame on the Parallax entity inhabiting Hal, though Hal's emotional turmoil over Coast City was said to have opened the door. I think Set still blames Hal for all the crap Ron Marz had him do. It was never cool to make Hal a despot and a mass murderer, IMO. I normally hate retcons, but Geoff's was as good as any I'd ever seen, and most importantly it righted a terrible wrong that had been done to the character.

Kyle Rayner has his fans. And the good news is that Kyle has been far from swept aside. He still plays a major and active role in GLC and in the GL mythos.

The League was absolutely right to distrust Hal after he came back, but I think after the Sinestro Corps War, he earned back their trust and his place among them. I think enough has been done with the plausible explanation of his past actions and with the heroism he's displayed since then to be worthy to stand among them again.

However, I'm in no hurry to see Barry in the League again, though I'm sure it's inevitable. Barry shouldn't have been brought back. Wally had more than earned the mantle of the Flash. So far I've been extremely disappointed in how that's all been handled. I'm cautiously optimistic about Dick as Batman so far, but I'm right there with Set regarding Wally and Roy.

I've never read any Starman, though of course I've heard all the superlative praise it's been given, but are we sure the James Robinson currently at DC is the same one who wrote that book?

Because after one issue of Superman he had me drop that title and after this first issue of Justice League - Whine About Justice I don't think I can go on with this book either. How is this man considered one of the greats?

I like some of the ideas that were presented here - like making a funky, obscurio like Congo Bill a viable, prominent character again (though I hope Robinson wasn't serious about him just being known as "Bill" from now on - what a lame and uninspiring code-name. "Congo Bill" and "Congorilla" are so much snazzier!) - and the art is of course very good, but man, what laughable dialogue and simple story-telling surrounding all that!

Green Arrow to Green Lantern - "No baby. I'm with you. You and me. Old times, new times, all the time."
The Atom to Killer Moth - "He's a hero. I'm Ray Palmer. Welcome to pain."
Green Lantern - "What about JUSTICE?" "I want JUSTICE."
The Atom - "I want him to pay. Yeah... JUSTICE!"
The narrator - "His words don't have a direct translation on this planet. But their meaning does---- JUSTICE!"
Congo Bill - "I WANT JUSTICE!"

That Atom line about "pain" makes me chuckle every time I read it. I had high hopes for this book so I'd hate to give up on it so quickly but with writing like that and a season when there are so many other good comics demanding my money I think I'm going to have to.

I'll check back in on this thread and give it another go if the posters here think it's gotten better though.

I picked up #1 and thought it was pretty good thus far. Its all mainly set-up so we'll see where we go from here.

Batman fan nitpick session
Jeepers Robinson, you know as well I do that Killer Moth isn't Killer Moth anymore! If you invented Killer Moth II, you owe it to us to make him awesome considering he was the coolest bat-villain of them all in 1951, which you should know full well given your knowledge of DC history. I demand this be fixed!

Er, excuse me.

Hal's speech was and the subsequent tension at first felt a little first to me but after thinking about it, I can see all the points of view. Hal made a good statement about them all sometimes resting on their laurels since they're in the shadows of Supes, Bats and WW (though I hate the idea of a 'trinity'). I can also see where the opposition may have been coming from, even if it was never stated: the heroes are worried when Hal gets very aggressive like this because they remember Parallax. So to answer CJ's question, thats the only thing I can think of.

I loved Green Arrow's comments and going along with Hal right away. Their friendship in comics is legendary and I feel like at long last we've seen it again in full force.

Congorilla rocks like no one else. But I HATED that Freedom Beast had to die! He's so unique! I demand his immediate resurrection. Its not like you can make a third Freedom Beast (I know, I know, the first was B'wana).

I like both Atoms so I don't mind them both existing.

I'll keep buying and am curious as to where this goes.

^^^ I could be wrong about this CK but I believe Killer Moth has stopped being Charaxes (and ugh! what a crap concept that was) and gone back to being plain old Killer Moth again. Which is way cool by me because he's the coolest Bat-villain of 1951, '61, '71, '81, '91 and 2001 in my eyes!

---one quick visit to Wikipedia later---

OK after reading that entry I officially have no idea what's going on with this character anymore. Apparently Charaxes is dead but there are a dozen new Killer Moths running around and none of them were the original anyway?!? I guess I hadn't been following this character as closely as I'd thought.

Jillikers! It sounds too confusing for me to check myself. Needless to say, Killer Moth in his original form is one of the coolest comic book characters of all time and anyone who says differently is a blood enemy of mine I must attack on sight.

He should be restored to his original form, have all those other wannabes horribly executed and then give Dick Grayson a beating.

And in 2011, he'll once again be the coolest villain ever!

I don't know Cobie. Wouldn't Mr. Freeze and Captain Cold be cooler than any other character?

Don't forget Minister Blizzard!

Wein's first installment is out, and it delivered on my modest expectations -- a slight but fun story, kinda like discovering a really good long-lost episode of Super Friends or a tasty new bubblegum flavor, and definitely the kind of story that might have rescued JLA Classified from cancellation.

It's Vixen, "Firestorm" (note quotes), Dr. Light (Kimiyo), Red Tornado, and Plastic Man versus the Royal Flush Gang and <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Roulette.</span></span>

I read McDuffie's final issue and just like the one before it, I have to say its ironic that I think his best issues of his entire run were his last. There are probably several reasons for it.

Nonetheless, I liked his usage of Icon & Hardware, and I'm glad its somewhat explained what the Milestone characters are doing in the DCU.

McDuffie was obviously playing with his favorites, but that still at least let us see Zatanna and Dr. Light in action, who are two of my favorites.

Perhaps now, going forward, JLA will actually be as good as it should be after about 34 issues of being mediocre. I hope Dr. Light & Zatanna will stick around.

I would love to read this, but at the same time the roster does nothing for me. I think it's so out there, and I really don't want to have anything to do with it. I love that Vixen, Red Tornado, and Firestorm are appearing but I will always prefer Elongated Man to Plastic Man and Dr. Light is just...blah.

And Wein continues to take us on a fun carnival ride. I was never a fan of the Royal Flush Gang, but I like the way he's re-invented them. Meanwhile, Tom Derenick has really improved as an artist -- he used to be awful, but now he's pretty good.

CRY FOR JUSTICE #3:

The numbers of those crying for justice swell... or get reduced, depending on your point of view. <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> Ex-Leaguer Tasmanian Devil, we learn, was killed and is now a rug on Prometheus' floor. By inference, and a panel showing some battle or other, other Global Guardians are also dead. </span></span>

I'm liking this for the 'minor' characters, as Hal here reads nothing like the Hal of his own title. Ollie seems like he's trying to compensate, so reads correspondingly off, too- but in his case, it sort of makes sense.

Atom, Starman and Congorilla are the characters I want to read more about. Maybe Supergirl, though that cover reminded me unpleasantly of the Superman robot in Crapuation Day.

I at once enjoyed and was mildly repelled by the scene where Congo and Mikaal fought in midair. It was an exciting scene- and told exactly what was intended. But the blood and the spoiler above make me a tad... queasy.

I like the new (I think it's new) origin for a villain I've never cared a tuppence for- makes me want to read about him a bit more. Hate the name for this character, though.

I'm really looking forward to the text piece/back-up featuring Starman next month, or whenever. Loved seeing The Shade and Charity and the other guy from the STARMAN series.

Meaningless deaths (or deaths to show how bad ass the stupid villain-of-the-moment is) are the reason I HATE DC right now. Robinson did this in STARMAN for no reason as well.

What's sad and pathetic is that he'll be taking over the main title when I was loving McDuffie's run. We'll be treated to more endless between the panel deaths.

I hope the next writer has Taz show up and rips Prometheus' head off while stating an "impostor" died in his place.

The death of Freedom Beast was one thing... but now I hear he's offed Tasmanian Devil as well!?! And maybe even some more Global Guardians?

There is no forgiving this wanton slaughter of great supporting characters just to add unearned drama to this immensely craptacular tale.

As if The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie wasn't proof enough of how low Robinson's writing skills have sunk since the heady days of Starman this dreadful book should be all the evidence anyone needs.

DC should shove this series into an Elseworld/other Earth like they did with the GOLDEN AGE.

Is anyone reading the regular series? I just finished 35 & 36... here's what I thought about it.

Blast from the past Len Wein can still write... I actually enjoyed reading the secret origin of the Royal Flush Gang & Amos Fortune. I'm ejoying this oddball incarnation of the team more than any oddball incarnation since the Giffen/DeMatties/Maguire era.

Cry for Justice 3 awaits me...

I am reading this series...but it's not keeping me hooked, it's about to get scratched off my reserve list.