Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Fantastic Four & FF

Ah, you're correct. I'd gotten mixed up. Message is still the same, only moreso:

Waid / Ringo - Ringo's art was terrific, Waid's writing pretty mediocre.

JMS / McKone - hated JMS writing FF, but enjoyed McKone's art.

Millar / Hitch - enjoyed Millar's writing more than Waid or JMS, but enjoyed Hitch's art less than Ringo and McKone.

People still checking out the Jonathan Hickman & Dale Eaglesham run?

I thought the first story was pretty solid, even though it was another Reed-centric story. Hickman kind of explains it in the letter column, and his explanation makes sense. In a way it felt like he's giving Reed a reason to put a definitive stop to the Civil War-type damage and characterization thats been done to Reed these last few years so he can end that and move things in another directon. It took Hickman three issues to do it, but if it truly is what he's saying, then I'm okay with it. I did like the Reed / National Richards scenes because they added some depth to Reed we haven't seen in years.

Meanwhile, the art is kick-ass, as I'd suspect. Eaglesham is one of my favorites in comics right now.

I'm looking forward to what they have in store next. Hopefully its some high-level adventure.

Is Reed finally admitting that he was wrong, and starting to apologize for sending cape-killers after his wife, best friend and brother in law, as well as getting Bill Foster killed, etc., etc.?

'Cause, to me, he's too far gone to 'bring back,' at this point. When Hank Pym has the moral high ground on you, it's time to examine your life choices...

Hickman and Eaglesham continue their run though the latter takes the issue off for a fill-in (its a noticeable change that is distracting). Hickman's run so far is better than I expected but its still not really all that great. Its mediocre so far, on the verge of getting really good (it has its moments).

This issue had Franklin have a birthday party and while it was sweet to see Artie and Leech (and I'm glad they might find a permanent home here) and funny to see Spider-Man with Johnny and the Thing, I felt it was a little too 'light'. This is the FF, and I need some sense of danger here--I need something scary / edgy / tension-filled / weird, *even* in a down issue. That's what Kirby did and that should be the formula. No full-on downtime issues in the FF. EVER.

Franklin ends up with his powers back and again with some potential Val & Franklin time travel stuff. Which means there is once more some speculation on if they might exit the title completely. Where once I might have found the thought atrocious, I'm not really all that worried anymore either way--whatever they do, I just want it to be good, and I want it to matter. If the kids ever leave the series, grow up in the future, whatever (all the various things they've done over the years but quickly undid), then they need to just full-on go for it. Because I don't have the energy for another half-way story with Franklin and Val.

FF remains pretty good but only pretty good. I'm still waiting for another great, kick-ass run.

I've liked Hickman and Eaglesham's run quite a bit. With #576, they revisit and perhaps return(?) the FF to their roots in exploring.

Here- the FF visits an alliance of three undersea nations isolated from the rest of the world beneath the ice of Antarctica who call their realm Atlantis. The FF, who fund a station above them, have to expedite the slower, nonsuperhuman exploration beneath the ice because of a tech-race with agents of AIM. They battle these agents in an extended battle scene set in the waters just beneath the ice, rendered without dialogue or narrative.

Guess who wins?

Sue steps forward in a big way here. Her status as 'head of the foundation' has been mentioned and even spotlighted before, but this is the first time I've really grasped just what that meant. In light of Reed's many and varied fields of interest and invention.

Folks, it isn't just the use of her superpowers or even her intelligence and will that make "Susan of the Richards, Susan of the Storm" a powerful woman.

I hope this isn't forgotten.

Though she'd give all of that up in instance for her family, as we see her playfully relating with Johnny and Ben at issue's beginning.

Loved (not just for the beefcake) the image of shirtless Johnny in shorts (bearing a flaming motif) with matching cowboy boots and an unzippered parka surrounded by folks bundled up to ward off the cold he obviously doesn't notice.

There's a sort of addendum on the last page, in text, telling us that Sue has tried to contact Namor to arrange an introduction to the 'old kings' of Atlantis.

Bet that'll go over.

And then there's the blurb, 'Universal Inhumans'. I don't think the Attilan folk are the ones that'll be featured, though I'm dying for a follow-up to SILENT WAR, leading to reconciliation between teams that should be close-knit. At the least, I'd like to read Johnny's reaction to Crystal's marriage. Remember how he felt about Quicksilver... and didn't Ronan debut as an FF foe?

I’ve caught up on two of the most recent Fantastic Four issues and following up on my initial impressions of Hickman’s and Eaglesham’s run, I’ve got to say, I’m pretty damn impressed. #575 and #576 were FANTASTIC.

Though its part of a larger storyline, each individual issue is basically self-contained, and done in a way that fully takes advantage of the self-contained format. Each issue provides needed suspense, character interaction, science-fiction and feels like a complete story, which a part of something larger. Very well done, and something few series can get right these days (an example of one that does it right being Jonah Hex).

More than that, Hickman has suddenly started knocking it out of the park! Here is what the Fantastic Four should be: a series about exploration and science-fiction! Not “just another Marvel superhero series”, which so many writers fall into, but a series that pushes the boundaries and takes us to new places. Above all else, Hickman in just a few issues apparently has begun the process to restoring the sense of grandeur in the FF, which is the most important competent of the series when it was at it finest and the one most noticeably missing for a long, long time. I like it! The two stories were quirky and off-beat, but in the Kirby-esque way that gives you that larger sense of scale and ‘wow’ factor. And that’s about the highest praise I can give a Fantastic Four series. As I’ve said in the past, I think almost all FF runs have failed other than the Kirby/Lee run which defined it, and the Byrne run of the 80’s (brief moments notwithstanding through the 50 years from 1962).

On the art chores, Eaglesham is rendering some mind-blowing depictions! In fact, I think it’s a safe bet to say his artwork is the star of the show here, as he’s just showcasing his talent in a way that’s been needed. I loved him on JSA, particularly drawing all the array of characters, and now I love him here, depicting different types of aliens, cities, underwater species, battles, and all kinds of awesome science-fiction ideas. I also find the way he draws the individual FF to be very well done and the best I’ve seen in years—probably IMO, since John Byrne. His Sue is strong & beautiful, his Reed is hard-working and thoughtful, his Franklin & Val are cute but spunky, Johnny is dashing and the Thing rocks. He already has it down to a science, and I can’t wait to be more. And to borrow a course of praise I already used, his style is very evocative of Jack Kirby, which is the other side of helping restore the scale of exploration and grandeur. Like Byrne took the Kirby-style of the FF and applied his own style in the 80’s way, Eaglesham is applying his own style in a very modern way. I’m quite impressed.

The entire run thus has taken a bit of time to build up steam. I think the writer & artist needed to find their footing and they have done so. My above comments from a few months ago saw me think there was potential but not quite seeing it yet. Here, I think the potential has begun to be reached. I’ve been let down by so many FF runs that I’ve grown cynical, but for the first time in a long time, I feel upbeat about it. I was disappointed with Millar, I hated Waid’s run and I can hardly remember the other so-so runs in between and prior. I take a very critical eye to the Fantastic Four, having read so much of it over the years. In the Silver Age, it was Marvel’s Flagship title—everyone who collected Marvel collected the FF and Spider-Man. Somewhere after Kirby left, it was reduced to yet another Marvel superhero series that redid the Silver Age stories again and again to lesser levels of quality. Byrne came in and restored the glory but after he left, the series fell into the same holding pattern as many other great series did in the 90’s and this past decade.

I think here, we might have something. I will definitely keep a keen eye on the series and look forward for more.

Note, the stories, are not going to be mind-blowing and epic in terms of multi-part, life-altering stories yet; rather, I’m speaking in the sense of restoring the spirit of the series and changing the focus, even slightly. With this in place, I can see Hickman building to some of those major game-changing stories. But first, he needs to return the FF to what makes it unique among the Marvel U. And without harping on all that “family” crap in a way that makes it over-dramatic; that has its place too, but it needs to be actually done in the story rather than talked about endlessly.

Oh, no! Eaglesham's been moved to a new Captain America SUPER-SOLDIER title! That might be a fine title, since it'll feature the original Cap in a new role, but I've really, really liked what the Hickman/Eaglesham duo has been doing and was excited for a nice, longish run.

Not to be, not to be.

I hope Hickman sticks around and gets an artist that pretty much works similarly to Eaglesham.

The Steve Rogers book is a 4-issue limited, so maybe there is some hope Eaglesham won't be leaving FF.

I've kind of enjoyed these comics. I think they do capture core elements of FF lore in new ways. But I also think Hickman and Eaglesham need to work on meshing the narrative and the visuals better. There are pacing problems between the density of the stories and the visuals. In the Mole Man story, for example, you had this huge page of the High Evolutionary city, and it was supposed to be moving up, but the visual (while beautiful) did not capture that AT ALL. Then, in classic 1960s "no budget for visuals" style, the FF find a way to escape with no corresponding visual. As a result, the climax of the story was a big "huh?" for me. Likewise, the Atlantis story had one murky, claustrophobic panel after another. I realize that was the environment the FF was in, and I applaud the artist's attempt to depict that, but it lacked some essential element of narrative power. I begin to wonder if Eaglesham is one of those artists whose images are beautiful, but ultimately static--perfect for emotional panels, but weak for action panels. Criticisms aside, I'm thrilled to see such a strong attempt to reinvigorate the FF, making it's rich history relevant to a new generation.

I read the latest Universal Inhumans issue and again--I'm just blown away at how damn good FF has been lately! This standalone-yet-interconnected arc of stories "Four Cities" has just been pure brillance!

Again, we see the sense of exploration and adventure all the way through the issue! Magnificent! I feel like the FF of Lee/Kirby with Jules Verne thrown in!

Again, we get a really cool sci-fi update to some great classic FF concepts, here the Inhumans with a more galactic view. Love it!

Again, Eaglesham is just brillant. I desperately hope he doesn't leave the FF for good because his artwork just works so well here. The pages are just popping with energy and the quirky sense of weird the FF really always needs to have. I haven't liked an artist this much on FF in years--I honestly can't remember when.

Great, great stuff. Jonathan Hickman is really winning me over between this and the newly launched SHIELD.

#578-- Johnny's such a knucklehead. Likeable, but, Lord, it's a good thing he's good-looking...

I think when Black Bolt comes back and meets his new 'brides', he's going to wish he stayed presumed dead in The Fault. Who thinks he's really gone forever? I certainly don't. Nor would I want him to be.

What a bizarre turn the Four Cities story is taking...

Namor's response was pretty much what I thought it'd be (I'm a little disappointed there-- I would've liked something a little different in this instance).

I'm defintely interested and intrigued to see how much of the MU will be pulled into this event. So far, it's casting the nets verrry wide, while simultaneously keeping all the expected players 'offscreen'. Interesting.

I want to thank Cobie, Todd, and Doublechinner for keeping this thread afloat with discussions of Hickman's FF.

When Hickman's first issue came out, I Byrne-stole it and wasn't impressed, but after seeing all the praise here and on another site, I borrowed the library's copy of the first Hickman FF trade.

Now, read as a whole, the Council of Reeds three-parter revealed itself as impeccably crafted by both Hickman and Eaglesham. It hit all the right notes and all the right beats, it was scrumptious to look at (Eaglesham has done an amazing job of developing his own prettier variation of the iconic Kirby look.)

And yet...it left me cold.

At first, I couldn't figure out why. Then it came to me.

I've been in denial about it for almost 20 years, but I have never liked Reed, Sue, or Johnny. My enjoyment of select past FF runs has entirely hinged on two things: 1) Ben Grimm, and 2) Whether or not the creative team is to my taste.

At its core, the FF is a book about a witty, unpretentious, down-to-earth freak trapped within a Stepford Family.

It just so happened that this was the book where Stan & Jack unleashed their wildest imaginings.

Otherwise, it would never have survived as long as it has.

This is entirely in my humble opinion, of course. I'm sure many will disagree, and I respect your opinions.

But I have to thank you guys for helping me figure out just what it was about the FF that failed to convince me it was ever "The World's Greatest Comic Magazine" (and, yes, I'm well aware that Stan's hype was tongue-in-cheek, but many people, understandably in the case of those lucky enough to have been kids during the Silver Age, took to heart.)

Now, having said all that, if my FF Dream Team of Peter David & Todd Nauck ever get their shot at the FF, I'll read it. Despite PAD's recent decline, I think he'd bounce back if he got to write the FF -- but that's a whole other topic.

FL—I’ve got to say, that’s a great post!

On the one hand, I don’t really agree with it, but on the other, you really bring up a couple of good points.

The first is that Reed, Sue & Johnny are often portrayed in not a good light. Reed, specifically has been written by some writers in an awful way that I personally loathe and its become a real personal pet peeve for me, so that I want to tell those writers they deserve a kick to the genitalia. But what’s funny is the fans are always quite willing to call Reed out on that, and yet, Sue and Johnny are (IMO) equally shown to be kind of jerkish and annoying at times. The line from ‘charming’ to ‘asshole’ on Johnny is pretty thin and many writers can’t seem to work it. Meanwhile, so many writers go out of their way to make Sue a stronger character (and therefore, fail to recognize she already is one) and she comes across as majorly condescending and a buzzkill. Let’s be honest here: sure, writers screw up Reed’s character quite a bit and make him come off as unlikeable, but Sue and Johnny have gotten the same treatment time and time again.

Now, all that being said I like all three characters quite a bit and think that’s just a symptom of bad writers on the FF over the years, or at least good writers failing to deliver the goods. So that’s where we disagree—I think all four characters are great, likeable and noble characters.

The second point you made that I really agree on is this: the Fantastic Four, as a comic book, lives and dies on the strength of the Thing. It’s always been that way, particularly in the franchise’s formative years, and in the decades since, whenever the Thing does not get the respect he deserves, is treated like a moron or is simply ignored, the Fantastic Four comic book suffers tremendously.

One of the major crimes in the history of Marvel is how much Marvel has allowed the Thing to be softened up over the years. He was akin to Wolverine in the Silver Age in terms of edginess, ferocity and popularity. Yet, sometime in the 70’s and beyond, he has gradually lost his edge. Sometimes now he comes across as a bumbling, lovable loser. I *hate* that portrayal of him. He’s got a heart of gold—absolutely. But, he’s not a flowery, aw-shucks kind of guy that would abstain from a conflict. He once betrayed the Fantastic Four to the Frightful Four, and and actually meant it without mind control or anything. Obviously, they shouldn’t go down that road again, but it shows this is a guy not to be trifled with. He doesn’t turn the other cheek or throw a fight to let some dude feel good about himself; he hands out a beating if he has to. He’s a tragic character, but they’ve removed a large degree of the tragedy and that’s hurt him.

I absolutely reject the stupid notion that many fans & creators have that the FF is a family unit and the Thing & Torch are adolescents to Reed & Sue’s adults. That’s a bunch of crap, and so anti-Kirby it hurts. It undermines the Thing’s quiet dignity, focues solely on Johnny’s bad qualities and sets up Reed & Sue to look pompous.

Now, I’m pretty happy with the current creative team, and am enjoying the run in a huge way. But you bring up some solid points on the FF in the broader sense so I thought I’d add my two cents.

Much appreciated, Cobie. Amen to everything you said about the Thing and about the "family unit" misconceptions!

And I have to say that I probably will continue to borrow the Hickman FF trades from the library, because what he's doing is solid enough and certainly the best FF in eons. But to get me to actually BUY the FF again would require a writer that I really hold in high esteem.

Or an artist like STEVE EPTING

I saw that today and wondered if that would do the trick!

LOL

U know me 2 well, Cobie.

I was on my way to post this...for FL.

I was pretty bummed when I heard Eaglesham wasn't staying on, but Epting coming on took away the sting pretty quickly!

[Title edited to be more encompassing. "New Creative Team for Fantastic Four" seems a little limiting a title, dontchathink? Don't worry--just because I edited two titles in one day, it doesn't mean I'm all mad with power or anything! ]

Epting? FUCK YEAH!!!

Well shoot, that was the whole point of giving you the power, was to see how quickly you flipped out and turned into a megalomaniac!

We even had a pool going.

Please post a list of outrageous demands, or threaten to shut down a thread or something, 'cause if you don't by Wednesday, I owe MLLASH 200 quatloo!

[I'll split the winnings with you! Don't tell him!]

I should edit that post for the unflattering insinuations, Set!

Well, as excited as I am about Epting's oncoming arrival, I just read #579 and it was so incredibly and amazingly fantastic that I could not help but be even more excited about that instead. And this issue neither had Eaglesham's explosive pencils nor Epting's incredile talent, but rather the relatively unknown art of Neil Edwards & Andrew Currie, who do a very fine job.

Rather, this issue was so incredible because writer Jonathan Hickman has revealed another layer to his immense talent, as the larger tapestry he is weaving together begins to become slightly more clear to the reader. The sheer scope and epic nature of his run is something that you can feel pulsating on every page, much like his work on S.H.I.E.L.D. thus far, and now even moreso. Up until now, he had been giving us sneak previews, one-issue stories that were great in their own right but left you wondering how they tied into the larger FF mythos. And now, we begin to see that they sure will *somehow* even if its hard to say how.

The crux of the story doesn't sound all that exciting but it worked so incredibly well that I thought it was probably the single most defining moment for Reed in decades that showed off what an incredible, dynamic and noble character he is, even if that nobility is somehow more geared towards the pursuit of knowledge & betterment of humanity than the day to day relationships he sometimes forgets. He dissolves his old collective of the world's scientists and humanitarians and creates his new Future Foundation full of children and various others and it just felt really exciting.

Hickman brings back everyone from his previous stories and we can see how they fit into this Future Foundation: Alex Power, the Wizard's boy clone, the Moloids (who are freaking awesome by the way, including the floating head one), the Four Cities, Dragon Man (now being updated by Valeria), the always awesome Artie & Leech and of course, Frankie & Val. The Baxter Building just feels so full of life right now its great. Other subplots like the Wizard himself and Nu-World also seem full of possibilities.

Each of the 'Four Cities' stories served as a way to put the spotline on one of the FF so this issue kind of took a step back even if Reed had a lot of screen time. Still, it was great to Sue in her new role as Ambassador to the Peak of Old Atlantis. Also very nice to see Johnny giving Franklin *good* advice rather than the typical 'played for laugh' advice lesser writers would have him giving.

Hickman is doing the incredible: he's restoring that undefinable sense of wonder to the Fantastic Four. The series has a renewed energy that has built-up gradually; it didn't feel that way at first but by now it's certainly there.

Edwards & Currie actually do a great job on the art chores. They're not quite Eaglesham, but they get it done in a good way. Now imagine when Epting comes on? This could end up being Marvel's best title!

Reed's speech was something to behold. I wish he could give that to the world right now: corporations, politicians, the media and more than anyone else, academia.

Still one damn excellent Fantastic Four comic by Hickman. This far into the run and I can say this blows all previous FF runs of the last 2 decades out of the water: Waid, Millar, Claremont, etc.

Really enjoying this latest time-traveling craziness arc with Franklin, Val and Nathaniel Richards. Hickman has somehow managed to wield a tale that actually feels like it fits with the entirely of FF history which is no easy feat, while feeling incredibly fresh. Whatever happens with Franklin & Val, it feels daring and true to the series at the same time.

I read Epting's first FF issue, and while I thought his art was typically faultless, the story left something to be desired. Hickman seems to put together a story the way a weaver puts together a tapestry. There's a bittiness to Hickman's FF work, not only the individual issues but even the arcs themselves. If Hickman is able to pull off one huge overarching storyline, I'll be impressed, but I'm skeptical.

Having said that, at least Hickman is trying something different rather than just re-hashing Stan & Jack's work. What's going to be the make-or-break factor of Hickman's run is which member ends up dying.

If it's Reed, which seems most likely, it carries unpleasant echoes of the Tom DeFalco FF run.

If it's Sue, there's arguably no reason for the other three to stay together.

If it's Johnny, well, I never cared much for Johnny, and I suspect many people feel the same.

If it's Ben, it could either destroy the book or finally move it forward for the first time in 40 years. I love Ben, but the more I think about it, the more I believe that his full story has already been told (and retold and retold.) And without Ben to outshine them, the other three could finally come into their own.

So I'm taking a 180 degree turn from my previous statements in this thread, and hope it's Ben.