Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Fantastic Four & FF

I hope it gets WORSE, and does permanent damage to Millar's career and gets Quesada fired.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Read the first issue, and I thought it was a decent start. Not mind-blowingly amazing, but a good read.

It certainly had the sense of fun/no limits to granduer sense at the onset with the time travel sequence, which has generally been missing from the FF since Byrne.

I like Alyssia Moy too, so I'm glad someone remembers her other than me and Chris Claremont.

How can it have been missing since Byrne if Simonson did the time travel sequence that Millar ripped off?

I don't think Simonson got the FF at all, and I'm a major fan of Walt's work. But his entire run left me feeling very underwhelmed.

What I mean is more a sense of the 'tone' and 'feel', which of course is highly subjective. I think Millar understands the granduer of Kirby's FF and the limitless of it. Usually Walt Simonsin does too, his Thor and even later Orion work showing that, but I just don't think he knew how to apply it to the very human characters of the FF.

I know you're not a Millar fan . I about 50/50 with Millar stories, but I did like his Ultimate FF, and I think he understands the tone of the series better than anyone in comics right now.

I have to say from the onset though that even though I've read most of the entire FF run, I don't really think anyone has gotten it right since Kirby and Lee, other than John Byrne. This includes all recent runs on the title (both Waid's and JMS's being two of the worst in FF history).

I rarely read the FF just because it is so hard to get right. I have read very little of the Lee/Kirby run, but having cut my teeth on them during the Byrne era, I do know what it takes. And I've very rarely been satisfied since.

One of the times I was satisfied was with Simonson's run, so I'll have to disagree with ya there, Des. I loved the crazy ideas, the bigger-than-life art, and most of all, I loved his take on Doom and his history! Coincedentally, that's the most controversial aspect of his run. But if you're the FF writer, this is exactly the kind of risk you have to take!

I also enjoyed Alan Davis's too, too, TOO short run on the title before giving way to Claremont! Ugh! Alan was born to do FF, dammit!!!

As for Waid/Wieringo, I enjoyed the first half of their run a lot, up thru that storyline which ended with the death of the Thing. The story with Ben's return was pretty good, too, but everything after that was forgettable...just too goofy, culminating with the final Galactus arc.

Ironically, the Jim Lee "Heroes Reborn" FF had its moments as well.

I'll definitely try Millar/Hitch, though. Their run on Ultimates was masterful! Though they'll have to use a different approach for the FF, they definitely get the chance from me that I never gave JMS's run or so many others.

I agree wholeheartedly on that comment. To be the FF writer, that is precisely the risk you must always take.

I also enjoyed the first few issues of Jim Lee's run, but ultimately it wasn't good at all. That could be just b/c of the art though, and art is never enough for me. Its not even 50% of the battle. Plus, to me, a 'run' twelve issues does not make. A real run must be at least 18 . *Especially* when it comes to the FF.

One of the things you haveto do to prove yourself as FF writer is to tackle Doom. Not only do you have to take him on, but you also have to do something new with him. Byrne, Simonson and Waid did that. It's not the be-all, end-all of the job requirement, but it has to happen for you to be taken seriously.

Same is true of the Red Skull with Cap and the Joker with Batman. Spidey, oddly enough as great as his villains are, doesn't have that requirement in my opinion. You can ignore Doc Ock, the Goblins, etc. and still have a successful run if the writing's good enough.

I agree with that. Doing it with Dr. Doom in the FF is probably the strongest example too. Certainly, he's more a part of a series as the main villain more than any other villain in any other series.

I personally think he's the single greatest comic book villain of all time.

Other titles where the villain must be addressed: Thor (Loki, though even if not used as full-on 'villain'), Superman (Luthor),

Other titles where it doesn't: Iron Man, Flash, Green Lantern.

But yeah, Doom needs to be addressed in any run of the FF. Even if you have a 50+ issue run, one really great Doom story can really pile on some credibility.

I'd also say: one of the things you have to do to prove yourself on the FF as writer is create one entirely (1) new villain/antagonist or (2) new situation / universe that causes the FF all kinds of problems. That's at the very least. I'd say to make yourself one of the FF greats, you'd have to do at least three.

There's "doing something new with Doom" and there's "assassinating the character's character." Byrne, Simonson; I'll give you. Waid, like Marv Wolfman in FF200, did the latter.

<-----------not a fan at all of what Waid did with Doom.

In fact: Doom + using spells = totally stupid

I wouldn't say "totally stupid" [Hint: Read Roger Stern & Mike Mignola's Dr Strange/Dr Doom: Triumph and Torment. By any means necessary.] That's the least of the things I object to about that arc. Rejecting his armour, the means by which he procures a replacement, DOOM DEALING WITH $%^&ING DEMONS, Doom premeditatively putting anyone or anything in a position to have power over him, the "keeping his word" scene... all of these things are FAR higher on my "why that arc was stupid beyond measure" list.

I agree 100%. I can only add that Simonson's futuristic re-design of Doom's armor was awesome (someone needs to bring it back) and that Simonson's battle between Reed and Doom was the most technically innovative FF sequence since Lee & Kirby in their prime; to date, no subsequent FF creator has equalled it.

Have you read Davis's alternate-universe mini-series, Fantastic Four: The End? I admit it's not Davis doing the "real" FF, but it's still quite good.

Des, can you clue us in as to why Simonson's run didn't do it for you ("underwhelmed")? I'll admit the "new FF" storyline was gimmicky (but still kinda fun)--is that your main objection?

Pretty much. I admit I haven't read it since my mid-teens and when I did read it, I read the entire Fantastic Four run from #1 to then present day issue, which was around the time Reed and Doom were supposedly dead.

I'm not calling it terrible by any means (and I do call JMS's run terrible). The Doom/Reed sequence you both mention I can recall and remember enjoying it too. In fact, I don't mind the Simonson/Doom retcon that much at all.

Just all and all it felt like a lackadazical effort to me. And while I appreciate seeing Thor and Iron Man and others in the FF, that didn't feel right either here.

Maybe one day I'll give this run a second chance .

But like I said, I don't really think any FF run besides Byrne can compare to Kirby and Lee, which are not just better, but are a lot better than the rest.

Now if you want to discuss Simonson's Thor, I can give you an issue by issue example of why it was so great, since that left a much more positive impression on me (and yeah--nerd that I am, I read that entire run too from JiM #83 up).

It's extremely dissappointing to me that this story was ignored by subsequent writers. In fact I seem to recall a story (possibly by DeFalco) explaining how it wasn't really Doom. Ugh!

To me, that's the single best Doom story (and one of the best FF stories) ever written, so it pisses me off how it's been swept aside!

I also think Simonson's version of the armor (or a modification of it) was reused for Doom 2099. What a waste!

No, I'd heard about it and thought about picking it up, but I'm not a big fan of those types of stories unless it's set in the ongoing title and affects its storyline (the best ever being X-Men's "Days of Future Past"). That said, I still may pickl it up some time because I'm such a big fan of his take on the characters.

Des, Lee/Kirby and Byrne were definitely superior (and longer), but I did feel that Simonson got the FF. And that, fundamentally, is the most important thing. Plus, the Doom storyline and the multi-parter that started his run were just plain kickass!

Simonson's Thor? One of the best runs on any comic EVER!!! I think the whole thing was effin' awesome, even after Sal Buscema took over on art. Hell, even something as ludicrous as Thor Frog just kicked ASS! Man--they just don't DO comics like those Simonson Thor issues any more!

Yeah, agree about Siminson's Thor, and also include Sal Buscema's issues as part of that (which I also feel are A+ excellent). Like I said, I could talk that entire run up anytime

Sal's art really was terrific when he took over! Though he obviously adjusted his own style to compare to Walt's, I found it very appealing.

What I wouldn't give to see Walt back on Thor and Byrne back on FF! Maybe you can't go home again, but I'd sure like to find out! Byrne has said repeatedly he'd do FF again, but I don't think that'll happen as long as Quesada's in power.

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/06/05/marvel-month-to-month-sales-april-2008/#more-5461

At this rate, it's going to end up with about the same sales as the McDuffie issues. How delightful.

Introducing the NEW new creative team for FF: Jonathan Hickman & Dale Eaglesham.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19901

Eaglesham's an undeniable talent, but then so is Bryan Hitch and he couldn't rescue FF from Millar's vapid writing.

It's all down to the writer, so who the hell is Jonathan Hickman??

The guy who's writing the soon-to-start five-issue Dark Reign: Fantastic Four comic with Sean Chen doing art.

Presumably, his first F4-proper issue will be, in effect, DR:F4 #6.

Thanks.

I might look at DR:FF in the store and see what I think. And I'll definitely look at the first Hickman/Eaglesham FF issue and see what I think.

I stopped picking this up several months ago. No big dramatic reason-- I'd just never added it to my pull list and then neglected to grab it off the stands and never really missed it all that much.

I discovered that part of what I really liked about the FF was the prospect of The Inhumans or Namor or Thundra guest-starring for extended runs. That sort of thing doesn't appear to be likely currently, so I'm not as interested.

Anyway, I remember there was something about an alternate universe Human Torch appearing who was gay? Did that ever happen? And, if so, what issue(s)?

Also, was anything more made of Sue's all-girl team, the Miss America Society (or something like that)? That was a thread I wanted to read more about...

As I get to the end of my comic book reading pile of 6+ weeks, I’m finding some comics that are pleasantly surprising, like Astro City and some that are disappointing. The penultimate issue of Millar and Hitch’s run on Fantastic Four falls into this category.

There is nothing really wrong with their run, and its not bad. Millar has crafted two new adversaries for the FF that he obviously is excited about, and Hitch has given them a good look. But you know what…it still feels all kind of boring for me. In fact, the entire run can be summed like that: “okay, not bad, but…when do things get exciting?”

I know people on the internet tend to either love or hate Millar, and many consider him the anti-christ of comic book writers. I actually think he’s a pretty good writer, but sometimes I love what he’s doing and sometimes I don’t. I think his runs on Ultimate Fantastic Four and Wolverine in recent years were some of the best stuff I’ve read; on the other hand, my feelings towards his Ultimates run were mixed and his Civil War miniseries was only okay. He’s also done things I simply didn’t like. He is talented, that’s for sure, but sometimes it just doesn’t translate to the page. Hitch is also a great talent but I personally think you can tell when his stuff is rushed—and this is rushed artwork.

But Millar has fallen into the trap that so many other teams on the FF have done: they simply just can’t seem to make the book exciting and fresh. It appears almost no one will ever be able to do that again since Kirby left way back in the late 60’s. The only one IMO that has ever done a fantastic job, is John Byrne.

In fact, Millar & Hitch’s run kind of reminds me of Mark Waid and Mike McKone’s run. Millar, like Waid, is both good and bad at times but a person you would think could do a great job. Yet, I think Waid’s run was even more of a letdown than Millar’s; I can’t see why anyone likes it at all. McKone’s artwork was the shining element that saved that run; here, Hitch’s artwork at times has come close (early in the run), but he actually doesn’t hold the story together like McKone did.

As for Millar’s “big bad two”…the truth is, they are still too derivative of Dr. Doom. And Millar does the same thing others have done, by making Dr. Doom look like a failure. Writers and some readers need to face the fact that Dr. Doom is one of comic book’s greatest villains, if not its actual greatest. He is certainly Marvel Comics greatest super-villain in their history. And Marvel needs to recognize this and restore him to the majesty he deserves. Because when they go the opposite route, it just fails on so many levels, time and time again. Once I read those sequences, I began to write this entire run off as another ‘meh’ type storyline. As in: “Wow, have new guys show up and trash the classic villain. Yawn. Seen it before. Hated it then.” Especially because you know that stuff never sticks.

So, all in all, this run wasn’t a failure. It was just more of the same thing that has always haunted the FF since 1969 with a couple of exceptions along the way: creative teams just not being able to get it, or at least keep the spirit of the FF going strong and keeping the book exciting. I hope Jonathan Hickman, whose been relatively impressive so far, can do better.

When were Waid/McKone on F4? Wasn't it Waid/Weiringo(/Porter) and JMS/McKone?