Roll Call
0 members (), 7 Murran Spies, and 7 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Time-Scope
I'm Thinking of a DCU character Part 6!
by Invisible Brainiac - 07/02/24 02:12 AM
Recent Legion-verse sightings in DCU proper
by Invisible Brainiac - 07/02/24 02:11 AM
Legionnaire Mastermind
by Invisible Brainiac - 07/02/24 02:05 AM
Wheel of Fortune / Hangman Season 3
by Invisible Brainiac - 07/02/24 02:03 AM
Inane one word posts XXXIV - inanity
by Invisible Brainiac - 07/02/24 02:03 AM
Kill This Thread LIV - Two Jokers Now?!?
by Invisible Brainiac - 07/02/24 02:03 AM
So what are you WATCHING? Part 2
by Eryk Davis Ester - 07/01/24 09:46 PM
So, what are you listening to?
by Eryk Davis Ester - 06/30/24 08:34 PM
Omnicom
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 10 1 2 3 4 5 9 10
Re: IRON MAN
#497828 08/11/10 01:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Loving your links to all these covers!

And you're totally right about the early Black Widow / Sophia Loren connection! Dead-on, I'd say!

Doug McClure might also be right in regards to Hawkeye (I had to google his image). He's harder to tell because of the mask, naturally.

Re: IRON MAN
#497829 08/11/10 07:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Tales of Suspense #72 – well the Countess storyline wraps up with a Mad Thinker story that was one of those stories I generally forgot about over the years. It was a solid one issue break after the 3-parter of the Titanium Man, but like readers of the day I suspect, I wanted to get back to the drama with Happy & Pepper. I like the Mad Thinker quite a bit though and think she’s woefully under-utilized. Recently in Hulk they used him to great effect with his fellow Intelligensia.

I was surprised at how quickly my above prediction came true: the Marvel Bullpen Bulletins page arrives exactly one month later and it begins as a combination of the MMS page (which listed merchandise like t-shirts kids could subscribe to) and the Mighty Marvel Checklist. It also begins listing “ITEM!”s where Stan would talk about upcoming projects, behind the scenes editorial stuff and insight into the creators personal lives. All in all, it very quickly becomes a must-read for diehard Marvel fans every month.

Also in the Cap back-up, which I’m generally skipping, the stories at last go from WWII era stories to modern day ones and it starts with a bang by having “Cap’s Kooky Quartet” surrounding him, so Suspense readers get a rare glimpse of the Avengers (Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver). Great stuff! One day I’ll do a full Cap reread as well.

Tales of Suspense #73 – Though you would not know it by cover alone, IMO Suspense #73 is a major turning point for the Iron Man series in the Silver Age, as it kind of bridges the gap from “Early Silver Age Proper” to the “Late Silver Age Proper”, and along the way, gives one hell of a great story. It’s now 1966 and Marvel is firmly in it’s “Grandiose Years” as the excellent website often referred by Prof calls it; meanwhile, DC Comics was in serious decline as a company as Marvel sales were rising while DC’s were falling. But what marks the shift is at this point, longtime Iron Man artist has left the series, focusing on his Avengers run, and “Adam Austen” comes on as penciller. While Heck’s artwork would in my mind, see a bit of a decline from this point onward, “Adam Austen” was just getting started—and that’s because “Adam Austen” was a penname by none other than the legendary Gene Colan.

Gene Colan is without a doubt the *other* great Iron Man artist of all-time, and this marks the start of his run here. Iron Man had the good luck of having two great artists during the Silver Age. With Colan’s arrival, the entire strip takes a bit of a turn as well, though it remains of great quality. Namely, Colan’s pencils are much more fluid than Heck’s, and the look goes from the classic comic book style to something that is more moody and atmospheric. It is a very welcome look for Iron Man. This is furthered by the action in the issue, in which Iron Man hunts for the Black Knight through his castle, which involves a lot of shadowing and background images with Iron Man lurking around corners, each panel more and more building the intensity until we get a beautiful splash page with Iron Man walking down a hallway with suits of armor along the wall.

Also noticeable artwork-wise is the coloring takes on a newer, more shadowy ton, with some background images not colored at all, creating a very intriguing effect that heightens the mood. Colan gets a new inker, “Gary Michaels” which is also a penname, this one used by Jack Abel, who was major part of the DC Comics Superman and War titles.

The final few pages were done by Marie Severin, whose artwork you can recognize instantly because of her beautiful style. The first page says “everyone had a hand in creating this one”, listing a whole slew of Marvel Bullpenners, including Roy Thomas, who was now part of the Bullpen, showing that Marvel was still evolving quite a bit in these years internally.

In this issue, Iron Man battles the Black Knight for a second time, and in it marks a big turning point for the Black Knight, as by the issue’s end, the Black Knight dies. We don’t actually learn that until about 2 years later when Dane Whitman arrives, which by the way, is one of my favorite Avengers stories because Dane Whitman is one of my all-time favorite superheroes. What is intriguing though, is that in this issue, Iron Man is more than happy to un-horse the Black Knight high up in the sky so he will suffer the same fate as Iron Man—and much later, we learn that fate was HIS DEATH! So Iron Man actually kills the Black Knight! That’s pretty heavy! The battle itself is a really good one, one of the better battle sequences I’ve read thus far and the Marvel Silver Age *always* had good battle sequences.

The dialogue is super-intense, as most Marvel dialogue would become increasingly from 1966-the early 70’s. In the opening scenes, a cop looking for Happy Hogan tells Iron Man he better not take the law into his own hands and Iron Man quickly snaps back at him, telling him he wants in, in such a way that the cop immediately backs down and agrees. There is tension all over the place!

Something else else I also liked was the Black Knight’s HQ was right outside Washington, D.C., and so we get to see Iron Man traveling there. This is something that fits Iron Man’s series—traveling to other locations & cities. You don’t often see that with Spider-Man (in NYC only) or Thor (either NYC or somewhere far, far away).

By now the series has taken a huge shift: Pepper Potts basically hates Tony because she thinks he doesn’t care that Happy Hogan is on the verge of death; meanwhile, she has begun to truly admire Iron Man. Even Senator Byrd feels the same way, though he’s still trying to have Iron Man unmasked. This is what I call the classic “Stan Lee Soap Opera Flip”, something he would employ on Spider-Man all the time. Every so often, people would begin to love and respect Spider-Man while in Peter Parker’s life, he would emerge as enemy #1 among his supporting cast. The same thing has happened here; eventually, the status quo will flip back in Spider-Man, but in Iron Man, you get the sense it goes back and forth in perpetuity.

This issue pretty much kicks off the “Freak Saga” of Iron Man which is a direct follow-up of the Titanium Man story earlier in which Happy almost sacrifices his life. When I was a kid, this story meant quite a lot to me, and was one of my favorites (I basically saw it as a continuation of the Titanium Man story, which it is). I was so terrified for Happy and was scared he wouldn’t change back. My Dad sometimes will tell me he could see the actual stress on my face as I would have to read all of these right in a row until I was positive Happy was okay.

In the Bullpen Bulletins page, there is an interesting announcement: “We Goofed Up Again!”. Here Stan explains how Marvel wanted to change the name of the company to “Marvel Pop-Art Productions” but thousands of fans wrote fan-mail requesting they keep the “Marvel Comics” name, proving their loyalty to the brand. This is just one of many examples of the sheer dedication of the Marvel zombies of the Silver Age.

Tales of Suspense #74-76 – As I said above, the “Freak Saga” in #74-76, in which a dying Happy Hogan is transformed into a freakish Frankenstein like creature in an attempt by doctors to save him, is one of my all-time favorite stories, much like the story which led into this one, the Titanium Man Saga. When I was a kid, I would read these issues over and over, from the Titanium Man to the in-between issue to the Freak story and thrill to what was inside. And always, I would be terrified poor Happy Hogan wouldn’t make it. Rereading this story now for the first time in at least 15 years, I can only say that not only does it hold up, it’s far better than my little pre-teenage mind could ever really comprehend!

Just like Don Heck proved he was a master on the Titanium Man story, Gene Colan proves he’s a worthy successor and master in his own right with this one. The level of mood and atmosphere is apparent as ever and this actually feels like a strait-up horror story, or at the very least a Hammer sci-fi movie of the same era! The level of quiet intensity just builds and builds throughout the three issues until it is no longer quiet but simply exploding off the page. Happy as the Freak is terrifying in the sense that someone you love could be transformed into a monster (which terrified me as a kid), but it’s the way Stan dialogues the issue and Gene builds the tension that makes it feel like you’re reading something strait out of Frankenstein.

The pacing of the battle scenes is terrific. The opening of the first part, in which Iron Man is dying from his battle with the Black Knight and Pepper must save him is a great start. (However, Stan must have forgotten Iron Man is right outside D.C., or less Pepper drove really fast from Long Island to save him). The first battle and then Iron Man attempting to bait Happy into going to Stark Industries all the while running out of juice. And then when it looks like he’s done for and the Freak is on top of him, the Freak hears Pepper’s voice and moves on to find her—even more terrifying. Very well done, and very horror-esque.

Iron Man is never more heroic and yet never more vulnerable than in this story, and it adds to the tension. Beyond Iron Man and Happy as the Freak, the other major supporting cast players get scenes as well: Pepper Potts is as important as ever and even Senator Byrd shows his heroic side by jumping between Pepper and the Freak.

Something else else I noticed about Pepper: she’s always wearing green!

The story essentially ends with #75, with #76 serving as a bridge to the next story. I’ll cover parts of #76 when I do #77…

Some other things I noticed from Marvel at this time:
(1) On the Bullpen Bulletins Page, Stan proclaims that unlike their competitors, “we’ll always be honest with you”. Whether true or not, this was something Marvel always proclaimed into well into the 70’s. The Bullpen Bulletins page would often explain why certain titles were cancelled, why some artists left, why certain things were happening. It created the aura of accountability, further instilling loyalty in the Marvel zombies.

(2) On the Letter’s Page, one reader ends his letter with “Yours until Namor gets sea sick!”. I remember this *always* being a major part of Marvel Comics, where fans would end their letters with something similar, in the “yours until ___ gets ___”. This lasted well into the 90’s. Losing that long tradition is probably one of the minor things that distilled the Marvel brand loyalty during the mid-90’s (one of the majors being they had too many comics for one fan to collect them all).

(3) During these months, Marvel was smart in amping up its next round of guest-stars that would go between various comics. Ka-Zar appeared in Daredevil, after his first appearance in X-Men, showing he was sticking around the MU. Hercules showed back up in Thor showing he was not just a one-off. The Silver Surfer was introduced in Fantastic Four, and in Avengers, Giant-Man and the Wasp returned at long last now that they weren’t appearing anywhere (the former as Goliath). This sense of no character being forgotten and following various guest-stars from title to title (much like the Hulk & Namor before they got their own feature) helped build the sense of cohesiveness to the Marvel Universe that DC did not have until the Bronze Age.


Tales of Suspense #77-78 – Really beginning about half-way through #76 and running through 77-79, Iron Man undergoes the next major saga of his career, the original “Ultimo Saga”. The fact that the series is continuing to move from one ‘saga’ to another really shows how the level of drama has reached new levels and things have moved to the grandiose.

While I don’t think the Ultimo story is as good as the previous two big stories, the Freak & the Titanium Man, it is still very good. Not so much Ultimo himself, who is a kind of generic large monster, but rather, the sheer awesomeness of the Mandarin, who in his fifth appearance has still not any of his luster. He is incredibly clever, very powerful and every bit the equal of Tony Stark. That is played up here, as after Iron Man defeats Ultimo, the Mandarin is convinced he killed Tony Stark and basically lets Iron Man run away. So while Iron Man is victorious in the sense that he beat Ultimo, he absolutely did not beat the Mandarin. I’ve been keeping count and in my mind, Iron Man has yet to have a full-on solid victory over the Mandarin. They all are basically ending in draws, with some level of Iron Man thwarting the Mandarin’s plans but then escaping while he still can. The Mandarin in the Silver Age was truly one of the premiere villains in comic books.

An element I also liked quite a bit was Iron Man suddenly found himself stuck in the middle of ‘Red China’ and had to get home, and over a few pages we see him having to go through all of that. It really brought the series back down into reality, and we see there is no quick fix. So while Iron Man is in China, Tony Stark’s life comes crashing down as Senator Byrd & the Congressional Committee shut down his plants, end his contracts and put a hold on Tony until he turns himself in to go before the Committee. At long last, that plot is going to reach fruition.

Ultimo hereafter kind of becomes Iron Man’s “gargantuan enemy” that returns for many of the milestone events, like a 100th issue or 200th issue. Thor has the same in Mangog and Captain America had the same in the Sleepers—throughout the entire Bronze Age, the three of them would hit a cycle every time a milestone approached where these enemies would return. To be honest, while Mangog in Thor is one of the greatest cosmic enemies of all-time, Ultimo and the Sleepers can’t really compare.

During the course of these issues, Gene Colan sheds his Adam Austen nom de plume and one issue later Jack Abel sheds his Gary Michaels one as well.

During these issues, I also happened to glance at the Captain America story in #78, which is the first time Nick Fury and Cap meet back up since Cap was unfrozen from suspended animation. In continuity at that time, Cap & Nick had only met one time previously in SGT Fury #13; over the decades it’s been retconned that they basically met all the time and had adventures together. In this story, it’s a very brief bit of reminiscing about the war days, but its still a nice, albeit subtle, scene that invokes some emotion.

On the Bullpen Bulletins page, Marvel announces that not only are all of their titles monthly—making them the only company that does that—but now they are going to start releasing reprint titles on a bi-monthly basis. Subsequent bulletins reveal that the reprint titles are selling like hot cakes! Marvel zombies who came in late ate these right up…and would continue to do so for years.

Re: IRON MAN
#497830 08/11/10 08:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20058.jpg

"I’m pretty sure hereafter Heck would not ink his own work as much, probably because he was now very busy as penciler on the Avengers. Either Ayers or Chic Stone would ink him (later others) and the end result was much better looking."

It's only re-reading the original printings that Don's inks look good to me. In reprints, the linework's destroyed more than Vince Colletta's. And whether it's deadlines or erratic print quality, Don's inks varied greatly between episodes. "HAWKEYE THE MARKSMAN" was the BEST he ever looked ot my eyes (which is so bizarre, considering it was the very first Don Heck story i ever saw!). Even if he had time to ink himself, others could usually do better. Ayers' lines come very close to Heck's own style-- there were a few episodes (the really bad ones) on SHIELD where it got hard to tell who did the inks over Heck, between Heck, Ayers & Esposito.

I wish Wally Wood could have done the entire run. it's amazing how he cleans things up for Heck WITHOUT overpowering him (just like with Kirby).


"I also think this is the start of what Prof calls the “third Happy Hogan”, which is the more handsome version based on Jim Braddock, the great boxer who was pretty good looking in real life."

My recollection is, it was when Mike Esposito debuted that Happy got recast. Pepper also looked better than ever then. Espo's 1st IM episode, the linework was so precise, it looked like a machine did it. Only 6 months later, he started to HACK it out, and almost never looked that good again (except in instances where he inked John Romita, because his lines were ALWAYS sharper than Romita's lush, "fat" lines.)


"So it appears Tuska returned to Marvel at this time and this was his first story back. Only at Marvel did the artists get such top billing! No other company would allow something like that. I did check though, and I see he really didn’t do too much more Silver Age Marvel work…a few pencil jobs here, a few ink jobs there but often with months between them."

Yeah, it seems he jumped around here and there, a few CAPs, a few AVENGERS. It wasn't until he replaced Johnny Craig on IRON MAN (and where Craig started inking Tuska) that Tuska REALLY found a long-time home, doing I think 3 different runs on the book (and later, some Subby's and of course HERO FOR HIRE, which may be his masterpiece).


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20059.jpg

"Within, Giant-Man’s villain the Black Knight makes the transition to an Iron Man villain"

I'm sure I've read this twice, yet I have no memory of it at all!


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20060.jpg

It's the CAP story in this one I remember the most. It led almost directly into AVENGERS #15-16 and the showdown with Zemo.


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20061.jpg

Someone said there were 3 really "great" super-villain origin stories from this period-- Dr. Doom, Red Skull, and Mandarin. I'd agree. The cliffhanger inspired my brother to pay tribute to it back in 1971 (when reading reprints of these was new to us), and many years later, for me to assemble an alternate version of the cover.

http://www.webspawner.com/users/zodiaccomics/imageGallery/MM%2003_c_website.JPG

http://www.webspawner.com/users/zodiaccomics/imageGallery/TOS%20061_cd_website.JPG

After what I thought was a VERY rough start, Dick Ayers finally seemed to get a handle on how to finish Don Heck's work. His inks on these episodes is MUCH better than when he started. Even so, I wish a Wally Wood or Joe Sinnott had been around full-time. (Dick Ayers probably feels the same; repeatedly, in interviews, he's always said that to him, inking someone else's work was "just a job". And to me, his inks never looked better than when he inked Jack Kirby.)

Re: IRON MAN
#497831 08/12/10 08:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
That's an alternate cover you created Prof, for #61? That is AWESOME! When I clicked on it, I suddenly had a 'flip out' moment where I thought there was a secret Tales of Suspense Annual or something that I never knew about. Really cool! I think it's better than the original!

And the Metal Man cover is awesome. Funny thing, my father also used to create his own superhero comic books as a kid and they were all basically Marvel superheros: Size Man instead of Giant-Man, the Challenger instead of Daredevil, and also, Metal Man instead of Iron Man. Metal Man is a natural analogue name. Love the way your brother puts 'Zycron' in the bottom right hand cover. Kids drawing their own comics is always awesome.

Re: IRON MAN
#497832 08/12/10 10:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
I've noticed that the big difference between my characters and my brothers was, he tended to do his own versions of a single, particular character, where I tended to try harder to create my own, in one case borrowing elements from 7 different series at the same time (all TV series, no actual comics!).

Zycron was originally the name of one of my villains, my brother re-created him from scratch. His version has nothing to do with mine (who is an alien terrorist-conqueror). His is more the deformed scientist-villain, and the design, more than anywhere, came from the SPIDER-MAN cartoon villain "The Phantom". (It was only on re-reading the Don Heck run of IRON MAN that I realized Iron Man had a one-shot villain called "The Phantom"-- but my brother had no way of knowing that! Wild.)

Re: IRON MAN
#497833 08/12/10 01:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Tales of Suspense #79-80 – Of all the Sub-Mariner appearances and battles with other superheroes in the Silver Age, in my opinion there are two GREAT ones that stand out above all others: the battle with Daredevil in DD #7 and the battle with Iron Man in these issues of Suspense, as well as Tales to Astonish #81. And that is saying something, because generally when the Sub-Mariner showed up, it was always a damn good comic.

Suspense #79 is more of a set-up issue all the way through, though it contains some great scenes of Iron Man realizing his entire life has fallen apart during the time he spent battling Ultimo and the Mandarin. The “Tony Stark on the run” sequences are very suspense-filled, and that is done by the excellent moody artwork of Gene Colan and the bleak dialogue of Stan Lee. But it’s in Suspense #80 that things really get underway as Namor arrives and battles Shellhead, and basically is giving him the beating of his life, as Iron Man tries to recharge. Colan’s Sub-Mariner is just pulsating with power! He probably draws the most threatening, strongest looking Namor of all time! What was a great part of the story, being the first half, is that throughout the issue, Iron Man is attempting to recharge himself and eventually does it so he’s at full power—and pissed and looking for a fight to let Namor know no-one gives Iron Man a beating like that; meanwhile, Namor’s strength is sapped so he goes to the ocean to refresh himself, so he’s at full power. And thus by the first part’s end, both Namor and Iron Man are at full strength and both beyond pissed—setting up a titantic battle to come!

The story concludes in Tales to Astonish #81, which I unfortunately don’t have on me right now (it’s at my Dad’s with the rest of the collection). But I’ve read it before, and I remember very well how awesome it truly is. The best part is the King himself, Jack Kirby, stops in to complete the story and deliver what I consider one of the crowning moments of the Marvel Age of Comics. Great, great stuff.

I figure the reason for the Iron Man / Namor battle is because Gene Colan was drawing both series at the time. Whatever the case, it’s kind of established a long-standing connection between the two characters. When the anthology titles ended and all of Marvel’s heroes got their own title, Iron Man and Namor spun-off into their own series, while Cap & the Hulk took over the anthologies. During that one-month transition period, Iron Man and Namor were without titles and so appeared in the really odd/obscure “Iron Man / Sub-Mariner #1” issue in 1968, further giving the sense that these two characters were connected (and generally dislike one another). In recent years when Marvel was doing its Civil War build-up with the Illuminati, it was appropriate that Namor immediately get furious with Iron Man at what was done to the Hulk and attack him—the two of them getting into another huge battle is really par for the course! (Of course the rest of Civil War I’d rather forget).

Tales of Suspense #81-83 – Since the first battle was so momentous and so damn good, you knew there would be a sequel…and thus, the second great Iron Man / Titanium Man battle takes place in #81-83. I have a feeling when this came out, the fans must have went wild, as already the Titanium Man had emerged as Iron Man’s *other* great major enemy besides the Mandarin.

Something else else I like is that this battle also takes place in Washington D.C. There was a sense that Iron Man was often in 3 different locations: New York (Long Island at the factory or Manhattan), Washington D.C. (for Government interaction) and China (or other Communist countries as well).

#81 opens with Tony Stark at long last deciding to go before Senator Byrd’s committee to testify about the Iron Man armor, moving that subplot along, which had been running for almost 2 years by this time! I know full well this will continue for at least another 5-6 issues before Tony actually gets there…and by that time, he has a heart attack before he can testify! So it ends up being something like 3 years worth of stories.

The battle between Iron Man and the Titanium Man is as calamitous as the first battle (though I’m not sure any subsequent battle between them could ever equal the awesome tension-building and pulse-poundingness of the first). The Titanium Man brags that not only is his armor better but Russian scientists have been giving him steroids and hormone drugs to increase his own natural strength—now I see where Rocky IV got it! smile

Way back when Tales of the Watcher ended, there was a one-issue “Secrets of Iron Man” back-up which showed all these different ‘just in case’ gadgets Iron Man in his armor. At long last, in this issue, we get to see him use them, though they are completely different than what we’d seen (no more ray-gun, but we do get roller skates).

Something else else that also happens within is Happy loses his amnesia, which we hardly saw at all. In fact, it was almost as if it existed to get him off-screen for a few issues as Iron Man battled Namor and then the Titanium Man and Stan decided—hey, why don’t we get back to that plot we started 12 issues ago where Happy knows Iron Man is Tony Stark. They didn’t need the amnesia at all, it turns out!

The battle ends with a bang (literally), and it’s a very satisfying end indeed. And typical of those Commies ( wink ), rather than rescue the Titanium Man, who tries desperately to get to the Sub waiting to pick him up at sea, they let him land in the ocean and submerge, since “there is no place for failures in our Nation!”. A very Silver Age ending if there ever was one! After hating the Titanium Man, you gain respect for him (as Iron Man does) and then feel bad for him when he’s betrayed by his own.

Captain America
Even though I’m not reading the Cap stories, I’ve been glancing at them and something I noticed that I liked is in #82, Jarvis, the infamous Avengers Butler, has some nice scenes with Cap. This is noteworthy because up until now, Jarvis has had almost no scenes at all in the MU other than brief, funny interactions with the various Avengers. He would not actually become an essential part of Avengers lore until later, when the Ultron/Masters of Evil story took place in which he was the ‘fake Crimson Cowl’. So Suspense #82 is one of the earliest Jarvis sequences where we see his actual emotions / thoughts / personality.

Credits
During the 2nd Titanium Man battle, I also noticed something else: Irving Forbush makes the jump from Bulletin in-joke to in-joke appearing right there on the credits! Usually titled “referee” or something silly, it’s amazing how the Irving Forbush joke was such a monthly mainstay for Marvel for years and years.

Letter’s Page
One of the best letters ever written to a Marvel comic, dealing with the symbolism of hatred in the Red Skull is in #83—and written by none other than Marv Wolfman, who was a teenager at the time! The Marvelous one was on the verge of joining DC in these years IIRC, and you can see he was quite the comic book fan already. Soon enough, he’d not only make his mark on Marvel, but be one of the short-lived EiCs. It’s groovy to check his letter out, in which he compliments Marvel’s attempts to make their stories mean something larger about peace & eliminating hatred in mankind “in the tradition of EC Comics”.

Re: IRON MAN
#497834 08/12/10 07:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20062.jpg

One of the great origin stories of all time!

(Please note, there was TERRIBLE color registration printing problems on the actual comic, including the lettering where it reads "The Origin Of The Mandarin!" This is an extreme case where I did a LOT of clean-up, to make the image look BETTER than the real thing, while staying true to the actual colors used-- something NO reprints have ever even attempted to do!)


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20063.jpg

I believe "The Phantom" here was-- LOOSELY-- the inspiration for "The Phantom" on the 1967 SPIDER-MAN cartoons. Except the TV villain dressed in purple, not green, and had 2 very different schticks (women robots with shrinking rays, and goggles that created "living shadows"). But then, he also had 2 completely different voices only a couple months apart...

(The GREEN on The Phantom's cape was SOOOO dark on the printed comic, it almost obliterated the linework detail-- I had to go to some extremes to get make it a lot "clearer" here.)


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20064.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/daredevil/DD%20007.jpg

Strange but true: DAREDEVIL and the BLACK WIDOW both adopted retractable lines they could swing on-- the SAME MONTH!! Amazing, considering they became partners (and lovers) years later.

Chic Stone's inks on Don Heck were VERY slick-- but almost eliminated Don's line style in the process. I love how it looked-- but feel Stone was a more natural match with Jack Kirby, whose style was always more "cartoony", while Don's was more "naturalistic".


"The removal of Hawkeye and the Black Widow from Iron Man’s rogues gallery actually leaves two major holes!"

Imagine if Iron Man had had to deal with Hawkeye when he joined The Avengers-- instead of leaving it all in Cap's hands! (Having fought several times, would Hawk have had more respect for Shellhead-- or less?) And how would Iron Man have felt about the Black Widow turning up, when Natasha seemed to be giving Tony the big eye early-on?


An aside: the visual on Cap & Bucky vs. Sandor & Omar seems like it might have been one of the inspirations for the 1969 (3rd season) SPIDER-MAN cartoon, "SUPER SWAMI", which had a visual of Spidey trapped inside a giant "mysttic" crystal ball!


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20065.jpg

The first of several "New Iron Man" vs. "Old Iron Man" stories over the decades.


"I also realized something really big here! The ending is almost the exact same ending to Spider-Man #137 when Harry Osborn knows Peter is Spider-Man and announced it to the police, but he’s so crazy they don’t believe a word he says (he claims he’s always been the Green Goblin)."

In the early 70's, Gerry Conway almost made a career out of "duplicate" character stories (fake Scorpion, fake Mr. Hyde, fake Vulture, fake Green Goblin, fake Mysterio, and finally, fake Gwen Stacy and fake Spider-Man!).


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20066.jpg

Not a great story, but MAN, I just love this cover!!!


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20067.jpg

"I had totally forgotten about this story, and namely that this is Count Nefaria’s second appearance. Nefaria has kind of emerged as one of the very best Avengers villains over the decades: not quite on par with Ultron and Kang, but probably the next best. In the Silver Age and early Bronze Age, though, he had many less epic stories, like this one. And as always, it’s awesome to see many foes of a hero all appear in one issue even if it’s a dream."

There has been some speculation among fans that Stan SCREWED UP on this one, as "The Dream Master" (wasn't that what he called himself?) doesn't look ANYTHING like Count Nefaria before or since, and his M.O. is completely different. Wha' hoppen??? It might be best just to figure Stan got his baddies confused, and pretend the guy here was somebody else entirely...!


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20068.jpg

"I had forgotten (or maybe never realized) that following the first Count Nefaria story, there was a second one the following issue."

See above comments.


"To be honest, this may have been the story I’ve enjoyed least of the entire set of Silver Age stories so far. I found it to be a bit too similar to the prior issue, only this time compiled with the incredibly annoying Morgan Stark."

I forget, did Morgan ever turn up again after this?

In my case, this was a favorite of mine, moreso when I re-read it, in large part because AL HARTLEY, mostly known for humor and romance books, filled in as "writer" (which in this case probably means he just filled in the word balloons). Al's style of humor is QUITE different from Stan's especially in the narrative blocks, which give this story a more light-hearted feel than any other from this era. I especially liked the bit of narration just before (and after) the VERY REAL flying saucer almost lands right on top of Shellhead.

Apparently, outside of that one (INFAMOUS) early episode of THOR that he pencilled (and possibly plotted or co-plotted), this may be the only time Hartley only wrote dialogue for a story he didn't draw himself. I kinda wish he'd done more. His light touch here might have been a very good fit on, say, X-MEN-- maybe more than the heavy-handed and excessively-wordy Roy Thomas was.

Re: IRON MAN
#497835 08/12/10 08:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Taking a little break from Iron Man's past, I've recently caught up on Iron Man's present:

Iron Man: Legacy continues to be excellent. Fred Van Lente does a great job as I expected he would. Within the story we're getting Dreadknight, Radioactive Man, Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man and even Dr. Doom! Awesomeness all around! On top of that, its been a solid story hitting a lot of the beats that good Iron Man stories usually have, as Tony becomes embroiled in the politics of Eastern Europe.

Iron Man seems to be heading in the right direction with the current story, as Iron Man and War Machine deal with the family of Justin Hammer. Better than that is we're getting some real development with the supporting cast and subplots, something which the title was lacking throughout the last year. New members of the cast are joining Pepper, Rhodey and Ms. Abogast (welcome back in a big way!), and one of the few things I've felt Matt Fraction has done a great job with--the interaction between Maria Hill and Tony Stark--is still an ongoing part of the series.

All in all, I'm enjoying the current Iron Man series, though Legacy is a solid step ahead of the main title (which is gradually improving).

Re: IRON MAN
#497836 08/13/10 07:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
One day after praising the current two Iron Man series, I’ve read the Iron Man Annual by Matt Fraction. And my thoughts: This is the single worst comic book I have read all year.

Quite frankly, I’m disgusted.

Some of this may be due to the fact that I’m currently rereading the Silver Age Iron Man stories, which are quite excellent and I hold them in high esteem. Part of it also I’ve basically dropped any comic book I felt was a stinking pile of crap (Outsiders, Power Girl, Mighty Avengers) and so when I do end up with a bad comic, I feel like I’ve personally been tricked. But whatever my own personal reasoning, I feel most other people would agree that the recent Iron Man Annual was about as low as it gets, and a level of quality that only Dan Didio at DC would like.

The Mandarin’s origin was something I reviewed recently because of how damn good it was in the Silver Age. Here, in the annual, Fraction completely annihilates that origin to present his own more grim n’ gritty version complete with being born in the slums, raised by pimps and prostitutes and all other 1980’s era story tidbits we’ve come to see time and time again. The Mandarin, who always was an enemy of the Communists, is now shown to be their lapdog—in other words, yet another once proud and great Marvel super-villain is reduced to nothing more than a political war criminal who thrives on rape and murder.

The Mandarin’s origin isn’t the only part of the story however; the idea is his abduction of a filmmaker and his wife and forcing the filmmaker to create a fictionalized film about his life. In the process he tortures the wife, hooks her on heroin and forces her into prostitution. Yeah, great stuff for a superhero comic. The filmmaker also has a fun time as he’s hideously scarred and mentally tortured all issue. Reading this story was the equivalent of watching the film Hostile. It must have been written for the torture porn audience.

In my reviews I’m often tough on DC Comics because they, quite frankly, have hit an all-time low in level of quality of their stories in their long history. But Marvel Comics often is equally as bad, and this serves as evidence Exhibit A of how bad Marvel can get as well. Reading this comic was the equivalent of getting mugged, being in a car crash and stepping in a steaming pile of dogshit all at once.

Re: IRON MAN
#497837 08/13/10 09:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Obviously, current Marvel continuity has no connection with anything from the 60's-80's. Wouldn't it just be better if they stopped publishing the old series, and created brand-new characters for modern audiences? Oh, wait-- they'd insist on owning those, and modern creators aren't crazy about the idea of just turning over creations to greedy, soulless corporations these days. So instead, they're forced to either toil in obscurity, or work on new, corrupted versions of characters the companies ALREADY OWN. (sigh)


I buy so few comics these days... just got another batch from AC Comics, including FEMFORCE SPECIAL #1 (from 1984!!). Not sure how I never picked up FEMFORCE when it started back then. The first story was set in WW2, and was BETTER than 90% of the WW2 stories Roy Thomas ever did!
http://www.comics.org/issue/39135/cover/4/?style=default

Re: IRON MAN
#497838 08/14/10 10:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
"my favorite Iron Man story of all time"

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20069.jpg


Well, it's up there!


"if Happy had died, the sequence would be almost exactly the same as when Captain Stacy died in Spider-Man several years later"

I would disagree on this one, because Happy went really out of his way to find the Countess, pull her off the road, take back the stolen weapon, race to the scene of the battle, and deliberately put his life at risk for his boss-- who he always saw as his rival for Pepper. What a HEROIC effort! Captain Stacy, however, was an uncalled-for cheap shot. After spending a couple of years building up to "does he know or not", and the possibility that Peter might find someone he can confide in and look on as a mentor, BAM, he's OFFED, for no damn reason other than shock value. It would have been CRIMINAL if Aunt May had actually died in ASM #33. It WAS criminal for Stacy to have died, and then have Spidey get BLAMED for it, as if it were in even the slightest way his fault. Don't know who to blame for that "jump the sharp" moment, so I'll blame Stan, John AND Gil "high tension violence" Kane. (GRRRRRRRR.)

I'm sorry, what was the question?


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20071.jpg

Isn't it AMAZING how between Jack Kirby's pencils and Stan Goldberg's colors, it's actually DIFFICULT to make out that WALLY WOOD inked the cover of #71? WOW! What a team. I really wish Wally had stuck around (and the same goes for Don Heck).


I suppose if Don had to leave, #71 would have been the perfect place for him to do it. #72, despite starting out with the "victory parade", just seems like an anti-climactic letdown. And this goes especially for Mike Esposito's inks, which have shockingly deteriorated in quality to the point where they already look as "average" as they would for the bulk of the 70's (and that's when he wasn't REALLY letting them slide).

Stan makes a comment in one of the letters or Bullpens pages about Don "wanting to spend more time with his beloved ponies". Is this true, or just a sarcastic slap at a talented man standing right on the precipice and about to begin a long, LONG fall, career-wise? My understanding is, Gene Colan was supposed to be "filling in" (just like he was supposed to be "filling in" for John Romita on DAREDEVIL). Instead, Gene stuck around for OVER 2 YEARS, and unlike Heck, without missing a single episode! When Gene got on IM, he STAYED, until he finally left.

One criminal thing about when this story was reprinted, part 3 jumped from MARVEL'S GREATEST COMICS to IRON MAN ANNUAL #1. Does it make sense to have readers buy an Annual that starts in the middle of a 3-parter? Of course, it got dumber the following year, when they ran a one-off, followed by the first 2 parts of a 3-parter... and forced readers to buy a random issue of MARVEL TALES to get part 3.


"Though you would not know it by cover alone, IMO Suspense #73 is a major turning point for the Iron Man series in the Silver Age"

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20073.jpg

"The final few pages were done by Marie Severin, whose artwork you can recognize instantly because of her beautiful style"

What? Huh? Where?


"we learn that fate was HIS DEATH!"

In recent years, Roy Thomas has complained a lot about what later writers did to "his" characters from INFINITY INC., but what i've really noticed looking back is that Roy really had a terrible habit of needlessly KILLING OFF characters himself. Maybe that's where his pal Gerry Conway got it from? At one point, Roy even revealed that Dian Belmont (girlfriend & sidekick of the original Golden Age SANDMAN) had died (his "explanation" for how Sandy the Golden Boy became the new sidekick), but later writers CONTRADICTED him, showing instead that Wes & Dian had gotten married and had a long, happy life together.


"The level of mood and atmosphere is apparent as ever and this actually feels like a strait-up horror story, or at the very least a Hammer sci-fi movie of the same era!"

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20075.jpg

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20077.jpg

"So while Iron Man is in China, Tony Stark’s life comes crashing down as Senator Byrd & the Congressional Committee shut down his plants, end his contracts and put a hold on Tony until he turns himself in to go before the Committee."

Whatta ya think-- John Hamilton (Perry White) as Senator Byrd?

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20079.jpg

And this is where I came in. IM ANNUAL #1 jumped from the end of the Titanium Man story to the Sub-Mariner 3-parter. It was also my very FIRST exposure to GENE COLAN's art! Going from "normal" art to this, it was like-- "WHOA! WHAT'S THIS???" It was like going from watching a TV show to a feature film on a big screen. I also used to compare Gene's art to looking at paintings hanging in galleries.

One other huge change in this period is the general storytelling. Of course, looking back now, I realize, Stan wasn't writing scripts... in some (many) cases, he wasn't even suggesting plot details! So it's not just a change in the art-- it's a change in the WRITING. Gene's plots, by their nature, are far more "visual" and less "story" or detail-oriented. It's almost like comparing the films FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE to YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE. The latter looks incredible, but the more I watch it, the less sense the plot makes.

Among other things, Gene's stories-- almost his entire run, in places-- seem to run together like one huge soap-opera. Most stories run straight into each other, and if someone were to read all of these episodes back-to-back, it might be like trying to sit thru the 1936 FLASH GORDON serial all in one go. A friend of mine pointed out, if you really look at FG, it appears the hero is fighting for his life NON-STOP for multiple episodes, and it all seems to take place in a couple of days' time! Rather than months between rematches, it would appear Titanium Man and Mandarin may have come back only DAYS after their previous "defeats".

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/astonish/TTA%20082.jpg

This has to be one of the AWKWARD-looking Colan covers I've ever seen. I can easily believe Gene drew it while he had the FLU! I much prefer the reprint ANNUAL cover by Marie Severin...

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/ironman/IM%20A01.jpg

"both Namor and Iron Man are at full strength and both beyond pissed—setting up a titantic battle to come!"

What a place for Gene to get sick. And it coincided with Stan going on vacation! The result was, Jack Kirby filled in, probably knocked the whole thing out OVER A WEEKEND, and inadvertently wound up doing one of the BEST and MOST EXCITING fight scenes of his entire career! Roy Thomas, whose dialogue also tended to be excessively over-wordy (yeah, even more than Stan's), and worse, STIFF and unnatural, must have been particularly inspired working over Kirby. It gets my vote for Roy's BEST dialogue of the entire 1960's.

"AWAY, spineless humans! How DARE you approach the royal presence with your PUNY weapons?"
"Stay back, men! That device he's holding WEIGHS TONS!"


Gene must have been in a bad way, because Jack ALSO pencilled the following month's SUB-MARINER episode as well (where Namor took on Warlord Krang & his heavily-armed flagship single-handed, before suffering a case of --OH NO!!-- amnesia-- allowing The Secret Empire's "Number One" to con him into looking for The Hulk... but THAT's another story).

Re: IRON MAN
#497839 08/15/10 08:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
The ‘what if Wally Wood had a longer career at Marvel’ scenario is one my father and I talk about all the time! We also wonder what would have happened had Wood followed Ditko to Charlton and somehow Jack Kirby could have went there to do his 4th World stuff the way he wanted.

John Hamilton as Senator Byrd—wow, perfect! He has the exact look of someone you don’t want to have to deal with but isn’t exactly a bad person.

Quote
Originally posted by profh0011:
One other huge change in this period is the general storytelling. Of course, looking back now, I realize, Stan wasn't writing scripts... in some (many) cases, he wasn't even suggesting plot details! So it's not just a change in the art-- it's a change in the WRITING. Gene's plots, by their nature, are far more "visual" and less "story" or detail-oriented. It's almost like comparing the films FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE to YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE. The latter looks incredible, but the more I watch it, the less sense the plot makes.

Among other things, Gene's stories-- almost his entire run, in places-- seem to run together like one huge soap-opera. Most stories run straight into each other, and if someone were to read all of these episodes back-to-back, it might be like trying to sit thru the 1936 FLASH GORDON serial all in one go. A friend of mine pointed out, if you really look at FG, it appears the hero is fighting for his life NON-STOP for multiple episodes, and it all seems to take place in a couple of days' time! Rather than months between rematches, it would appear Titanium Man and Mandarin may have come back only DAYS after their previous "defeats".
Two great points about the change in story-telling in this era, both for Marvel in general and Iron Man specifically. You’re absolutely right that the story-telling shift is broadly felt across the entire Marvel Universe, and now that you mention it, I can see you’re totally right in that Stan was even less involved than he already was in creating the stories. Fantastic Four & Thor feel almost purely Kirby hereafter, for example. With Roy Thomas coming in on many titles during the next few years (Avengers, most prominently), this adds to the evolution of Marvel Comics. I feel that during this era in 1966, so many of Marvel’s titles really just exploded in greatness, even moreso that what had come before (Thor, for one).

Your comment about Gene Colan’s art is also dead-on. While Don Heck’s excellent job seemed to be very ‘plot-central’ in moving the story along, Gene’s very different style is a much more visual approach to story-telling. Reading them right in a row it’s really noticeable. I’m loving Colan’s work here and it’s making me want to reread Namor & Daredevil so I can see if this is possibly the very best Gene Colan artwork of his career.

The sense of continued story-telling from one storyline to another is something I’ve noticed too. I don’t mind that so much—Kirby’s Thor would start to feel this way after awhile. It really feels like a few days time, as you point out! So when the Mandarin returns after the Ultimo battle a few issues later, it’s almost like the Mandarin simply was just continuing his fight after a brief respite. On the one hand, it certainly heightens the sense of adventure and tension; on the other hand, I think any issue now where I’m at (#83), we could use a clean break where Tony is just resting for a few days in between issues. From a marketing perspective though, I feel like if these issues were coming out I’d be so anxious to get the next one that there is no real ‘jumping off’ point, which is a smart move.

Quote
Originally posted by profh0011:
"both Namor and Iron Man are at full strength and both beyond pissed—setting up a titantic battle to come!"

What a place for Gene to get sick. And it coincided with Stan going on vacation! The result was, Jack Kirby filled in, probably knocked the whole thing out OVER A WEEKEND, and inadvertently wound up doing one of the BEST and MOST EXCITING fight scenes of his entire career! Roy Thomas, whose dialogue also tended to be excessively over-wordy (yeah, even more than Stan's), and worse, STIFF and unnatural, must have been particularly inspired working over Kirby. It gets my vote for Roy's BEST dialogue of the entire 1960's.

"AWAY, spineless humans! How DARE you approach the royal presence with your PUNY weapons?"
"Stay back, men! That device he's holding WEIGHS TONS!"


Gene must have been in a bad way, because Jack ALSO pencilled the following month's SUB-MARINER episode as well (where Namor took on Warlord Krang & his heavily-armed flagship single-handed, before suffering a case of --OH NO!!-- amnesia-- allowing The Secret Empire's "Number One" to con him into looking for The Hulk... but THAT's another story).
It really is great stuff. By this point Kirby was really just on FF, Thor and Cap and was only doing *some* of the covers instead of all of the, so it’s cool to see him come back to Iron Man and Namor and knock one out of the park. And this is likely one of those classic examples of Kirby doing a masterpiece in a few days time, as you said. The legends of him doing that are numerous!

I think this was also the first time that a story was started in one title and then continued into another. Is that correct? It must have felt very cutting edge at the time, and since it was only done so judiciously, it was something special.

Re: IRON MAN
#497840 08/15/10 12:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
"John Hamilton as Senator Byrd—wow, perfect! He has the exact look of someone you don’t want to have to deal with but isn’t exactly a bad person."

He also played Flash's father in one of the serials (CONQUERS THE UNIVERSE). I just did a peek at the IMDB, man, did he have a LONNNNNNNNNG career. I noticed he also played the D.A. in THE MALTESE FALCON (the one with Bogart, of course).


"With Roy Thomas coming in on many titles during the next few years (Avengers, most prominently), this adds to the evolution of Marvel Comics."

With Roy (also Archie Goodwin, not so sure about Gary Friedrich) I got the impression he really wanted to write, so Roy probably used "Marvel Method" in a way Stan never did. That is, supply detailed plot up-front, have the artist flesh it out, then finish by adding dialogue. Jim Steranko, of course, was writing for himself, so I have no idea how he worked, but I'd guess it was plot & pencils together, as most of the people who worked with Stan larger on did, except he did HIS OWN dialogue. Roy has said he had little interest in SHIELD, but apart from the spy thing, part of that MAY have been that Kirby & Steranko were doing 100% of the plots, so anyone else would have little left to do. (Even so, some of my FAVORITE Stan Lee dialogue was on Kirby's SHIELD. Better than Steranko's!) Jim Lawrence may have felt put out the same way on DR. STRANGE, as during his very brief run, Dan Adkins was actually getting credited with the plots, just as Ditko had near the end of his run.

Arnold Drake's the one I'm wondering about, coming from DC, I keep wondering if he worked Marvel method, or full script? His stuff had a very different feel to it.


"Reading them right in a row it’s really noticeable. I’m loving Colan’s work here and it’s making me want to reread Namor & Daredevil so I can see if this is possibly the very best Gene Colan artwork of his career."

There was utter chaos on CAPTAIN AMERICA when Steranko left abruptly. When Gene finally got on the book, he stayed for 22 consecutive issues (consistent, dependable guy, ain't he?). My reaction to re-reading his run recently was, the stories weren't the greatest... but with ARTWORK like that, WHO CARED?? (Especially when Joe Sinnott was on the inks-- Joe did the first 9 issues.)

Those IM episodes inked by Jack Abel-- WOW!! Some of my favorite Colan art, ever. Makes me wish we could have seen Heck-Abel. Abel's lines are so CLEAN, I'm betting he would have been a good match for Heck's roughness.


"It really feels like a few days time, as you point out!"

I think there are runs of DARK SHADOWS like that, too-- months of episodes that, if you think about it, are only weeks of events. I can picture some hero saying to a super-villain out on parole, "Hey, didn't they just throw you in jail LAST WEEK?"


"I think any issue now where I’m at (#83), we could use a clean break where Tony is just resting for a few days in between issues."

I much prefer those kind of story endings. Like THE PHANTOM newspaper strip, I don't recall any overlap between stories, there was always a clean break, and the foillowing Monday would have the familiar origin recap. ("For those who came in late..." --the feature film started that way!)


"And this is likely one of those classic examples of Kirby doing a masterpiece in a few days time, as you said."

Right now I'm picturing Namor grabbing Krang's flagship with his bare hands. In many ways, Namor was Bill Everett's VERY-different version of SUPERMAN! (Incredibly strong, comes from an "alien" civilization, name starts with an "S"...heh.) From the time he came back, Kirby's rendition of Namor had changed a lot. Originally, he looked VERY much like Everett's version. But in these 2 ASTONISH episodes, Kirby seems to be following Gene Colan's "BULKED-UP" version more. Kirby's own characters were getting bulkier as the 60's went on, but to see Kirby draw Namor that way is still kinda jarring.

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/fantasticfour/FF%20004.jpg

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/astonish/TTA%20090.jpg


"I think this was also the first time that a story was started in one title and then continued into another. Is that correct? It must have felt very cutting edge at the time, and since it was only done so judiciously, it was something special."

Well, the Rick Jones-Hulk thing did go from AVENGERS #4 to FF #25, but there was a definite break between stories. It was many years for me between reading those 2 in reprints, and I was surprised to find out FF #25 happened the very next month.

That's a good question. I'd be amazed if NOBODY ever did this kind of thing before, but as far as 60's Marvel goes, it does seem to be the first time.

Re: IRON MAN
#497841 08/15/10 01:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Some IRON MAN covers I never saw until recently...

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/msh/MSH%20028.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/msh/MSH%20029.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/msh/MSH%20030.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/msh/MSH%20031.jpg

This was where the stories in between the 1st TITANIUM MAN fight and the IM-Namor fight were reprinted. There was a lot of chaos on the reprint front around 1971, and they weren't making it easy for fans to follow some series just then!

Re: IRON MAN
#497842 08/15/10 03:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Following the disgusting Iron Man Annual I reviewed before, I immediately felt the need to go back to reading Tales of Suspense in order to rid the new from my memory and take-in the majesty of the Silver Age. Luckily, I travel everywhere with issues of Tales of Suspense these days as one never knows when a great opportunity to read comics will present itself!

Tales of Suspense #84-86 – This is yet again a story that I was enthralled by as a kid, as premise caused all kinds of anxiety for my pre-teen heart! Tony Stark prepares to explain to the Senate Committee at long last the secret of Iron Man—and collapses on the stand, having a minor heart attack! It’s finally happened! Immediately, people begin putting two and two together and realize Tony is likely Iron Man afterall. Thus, Happy Hogan, who knows Iron Man’s identity has to make a choice: betray Tony and try to make a play for Pepper once and for all, or try to help Tony. Naturally, he shows he’s an honorable man and good friend and so dons the Iron Man armor to show Tony & Iron Man both in different places at the same time. But we didn’t think it’d be that easy—as the Mandarin strikes once more and immediately captures Happy as Iron Man! The Mandarin—who thus far has never truly been defeated by Iron man! The Mandarin—Iron Man’s most dangerous nemesis!

The sense of dread I felt when I first read this story can’t be put into words. Rereading it, it’s far better than I remembered, as the reader is left questioning right up until the end what choice Happy would make. Happy Hogan stands right beside Pete Ross as the all-time “most loyal friend” in comic books. As a kid this might a great deal to me and still does. And then, when he’s proven himself…he’s captured by the worst of the worst.

Another thing I liked: Senator Byrd shows he actually does respect Tony Stark after all and trusts him—perhaps a bit too much of a swing in personality but there’s no denying the Senator was always portrayed quasi-heroically.

Once its to #85, Tony is rushing to save Happy and we the readers feel the panic right there along with him. A nice touch is when he gets to the factory the guards give him a hard time not believing he’s Tony Stark, holding things up even faster. And then as he’s walking through the factory, two of his resident genius inventors ask him for help and on the move he answers their question without pausing, basically completing a huge project for them. It’s a humorous scene showcasing Tony’s intellect, but it’s so over the top that I’m glad Stan didn’t use this trick too often.

Gene Colan then shows off his layout talent as he strings together a pin-up page of Iron Man doing various things to create a new set of armor on page 5 of #85, and its unlike anything else Marvel was doing. This month just happens to be the exact time Jim Steranko joined Marvel at the close of 1966, which is good in terms of synchronicity as Steranko and Colan would help mix things up in terms of panel layouts as the Silver Age reached its latter part.

It also never ceases to amaze me in the ways they are able to get Iron Man from the US to China and back each time.

The battle between Tony & the Mandarin actually only really takes place in #86 and is noteworthy for a few reasons. The most important of these is that this is the first time that Iron Man truly beats the Mandarin hands-down, no bones about it. Previously, every victory Iron Man had never really felt like a complete victory; here, he not only rescues Happy, he actually defeats the Mandarin in combat. Also of note that following that defeat of the Mandarin, he destroys his castle with a bomb!. I’m sure no one thought for a second that the Mandarin was dead at the time, but the Mandarin’s Castle had become a recurring location in the series and losing it was step in the evolution of Iron Man and the Mandarin (albeit small one).

Captain America
Once again I couldn’t help but check out the Cap story, featuring the Super-Adaptoid, because it’s so awesome to see Jack Kirby drawing Goliath, the Wasp and Hawkeye with Cap, all guest-starring as the story takes place in Avengers Mansion. Kirby drew many awesome Giant-Man stories, but he never really did anything with the Goliath costume. As I’ve said numerous times, I was raised on Jack Kirby and can’t stress how much he means to me and my family. And the Goliath identity/original costume is my absolute favorite status for Henry Pym of all time, so it’s cool to see them together.

Tales of Suspense #87-88 – Following a string of high intensity stories that immediately followed the other (as Prof and I have been discussing), Suspense #87-88 presents a more standard 2-parter featuring Iron Man vs. the Mole Man. The story is beautifully drawn while the plot is kind of standard Mole Man fare, but it’s that sense of being a complete 2-parter that sets it apart. For the first time in quite awhile, some time has passed from the last story until this one, and the ending leaves for some time to pass from this one to the next. So here presents a kind of natural breaking point for the reader to catch his breath. Because the previous issue’s defeat of the Mandarin was so sound, you get the sense the series is moving to the next stage—which it is.

The Mole Man had appeared in numerous other titles, specifically the Fantastic Four (and Shellhead even battled him in Avengers). While I appreciate the Mole Man, he’s not one of the villains I’ve clamored to see in upcoming issues. The most interesting part of the story is the main Stark Industries factory in Long Island was sucked into a subterranean cavern and then at the end—destroyed!. This kind of creates an interesting symmetry to the previous story as now yet another recurring location—and the major one—has been completely destroyed. You get the sense artistically as if things are moving forward from what has come before; that will continue with the supporting cast as the build-up to Iron Man’s solo title now starts.

Besides the story, what is interesting is noticing what’s going on at Marvel at this time. For the first time, narration balloons start appearing in different ways besides the traditional box at the top: now we see circular ones as well. I first noticed that last year when I was rereading the entire Thor run. It’s a subtle transition to the Marvel art style in the 1970’s.

Marvel also was getting some change in it’s bullpen. Gil Kane officially joins Marvel, and even gets to start with some Captain America stories (at the time it feels like Jack Kirby was actually going to leave the strip for good, but I know he returns a short time after this). Roy Thomas has been writing four titles now (at least what they tell us: X-Men, Avengers, SGT Fury and SHIELD--Prof's above post explains things differently and I can't wait to respond) and now Marvel has brought on a second writer to help Stan & Roy, Gary Friedrich. Marie Severin is becoming more prominent, and in the Bulletin they announce John Verpooten joining Marvel. Even though this was still firmly the Marvel Age of Comics (re: the Mid to Late Silver Age), the set-up was being put in place for the post-Silver Age years.

Re: IRON MAN
#497843 08/15/10 03:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Quote
Originally posted by profh0011:
"John Hamilton as Senator Byrd—wow, perfect! He has the exact look of someone you don’t want to have to deal with but isn’t exactly a bad person."

He also played Flash's father in one of the serials (CONQUERS THE UNIVERSE). I just did a peek at the IMDB, man, did he have a LONNNNNNNNNG career. I noticed he also played the D.A. in THE MALTESE FALCON (the one with Bogart, of course).


"With Roy Thomas coming in on many titles during the next few years (Avengers, most prominently), this adds to the evolution of Marvel Comics."

With Roy (also Archie Goodwin, not so sure about Gary Friedrich) I got the impression he really wanted to write, so Roy probably used "Marvel Method" in a way Stan never did. That is, supply detailed plot up-front, have the artist flesh it out, then finish by adding dialogue. Jim Steranko, of course, was writing for himself, so I have no idea how he worked, but I'd guess it was plot & pencils together, as most of the people who worked with Stan larger on did, except he did HIS OWN dialogue. Roy has said he had little interest in SHIELD, but apart from the spy thing, part of that MAY have been that Kirby & Steranko were doing 100% of the plots, so anyone else would have little left to do. (Even so, some of my FAVORITE Stan Lee dialogue was on Kirby's SHIELD. Better than Steranko's!) Jim Lawrence may have felt put out the same way on DR. STRANGE, as during his very brief run, Dan Adkins was actually getting credited with the plots, just as Ditko had near the end of his run.

Arnold Drake's the one I'm wondering about, coming from DC, I keep wondering if he worked Marvel method, or full script? His stuff had a very different feel to it.


"Reading them right in a row it’s really noticeable. I’m loving Colan’s work here and it’s making me want to reread Namor & Daredevil so I can see if this is possibly the very best Gene Colan artwork of his career."

There was utter chaos on CAPTAIN AMERICA when Steranko left abruptly. When Gene finally got on the book, he stayed for 22 consecutive issues (consistent, dependable guy, ain't he?). My reaction to re-reading his run recently was, the stories weren't the greatest... but with ARTWORK like that, WHO CARED?? (Especially when Joe Sinnott was on the inks-- Joe did the first 9 issues.)

Those IM episodes inked by Jack Abel-- WOW!! Some of my favorite Colan art, ever. Makes me wish we could have seen Heck-Abel. Abel's lines are so CLEAN, I'm betting he would have been a good match for Heck's roughness.


"It really feels like a few days time, as you point out!"

I think there are runs of DARK SHADOWS like that, too-- months of episodes that, if you think about it, are only weeks of events. I can picture some hero saying to a super-villain out on parole, "Hey, didn't they just throw you in jail LAST WEEK?"


"I think any issue now where I’m at (#83), we could use a clean break where Tony is just resting for a few days in between issues."

I much prefer those kind of story endings. Like THE PHANTOM newspaper strip, I don't recall any overlap between stories, there was always a clean break, and the foillowing Monday would have the familiar origin recap. ("For those who came in late..." --the feature film started that way!)


"And this is likely one of those classic examples of Kirby doing a masterpiece in a few days time, as you said."

Right now I'm picturing Namor grabbing Krang's flagship with his bare hands. In many ways, Namor was Bill Everett's VERY-different version of SUPERMAN! (Incredibly strong, comes from an "alien" civilization, name starts with an "S"...heh.) From the time he came back, Kirby's rendition of Namor had changed a lot. Originally, he looked VERY much like Everett's version. But in these 2 ASTONISH episodes, Kirby seems to be following Gene Colan's "BULKED-UP" version more. Kirby's own characters were getting bulkier as the 60's went on, but to see Kirby draw Namor that way is still kinda jarring.

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/fantasticfour/FF%20004.jpg

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/astonish/TTA%20090.jpg


"I think this was also the first time that a story was started in one title and then continued into another. Is that correct? It must have felt very cutting edge at the time, and since it was only done so judiciously, it was something special."

Well, the Rick Jones-Hulk thing did go from AVENGERS #4 to FF #25, but there was a definite break between stories. It was many years for me between reading those 2 in reprints, and I was surprised to find out FF #25 happened the very next month.

That's a good question. I'd be amazed if NOBODY ever did this kind of thing before, but as far as 60's Marvel goes, it does seem to be the first time.
As always, Prof, you’re knowledge of the Marvel Bullpen of the 60’s and 70’s just fascinates me! Steranko naturally seems like he was doing *everything* on SHIELD, which shows Roy’s involvement was probably very little.

Also curious to know about Arnold Drake, which I’m curious about, since he was a long-time DCer.

Gil Kane always said he LOVED the Marvel method and made it seem like it was *true* Marvel method in that he got some plotting help, did the story and then the writer did the dialogue. I know he worked with Stan and then Roy on Spidey, so I wonder the involvement with Stan and others?

One I’m curious about is Bill Everett when he started doing Namor again. I’d suspect as Namor’s creator he was doing the majority of the work, but then again, who knows?

Something else else I’ve noticed about Gene’s Iron Man is that he really feels like he’s wearing *armor*. The chest plate prominently sticks out, the nozels for heat & the like are apparent, and the side discs around his belt stick out enough where it feels like he has two high-techno holsters. The effect is just really dynamic and exciting to look at!

Re: IRON MAN
#497844 08/15/10 03:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Quote
Originally posted by profh0011:
Some IRON MAN covers I never saw until recently...

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/msh/MSH%20028.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/msh/MSH%20029.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/msh/MSH%20030.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/msh/MSH%20031.jpg

This was where the stories in between the 1st TITANIUM MAN fight and the IM-Namor fight were reprinted. There was a lot of chaos on the reprint front around 1971, and they weren't making it easy for fans to follow some series just then!
Like most of the Marvel reprint comics, I've never seen any of these covers before! Great stuff!

Re: IRON MAN
#497845 08/15/10 05:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
I'm doing so much "technical" work at the SA Marvel site (mostly fixing links because I've renamed files or move things around), it's nice to take a break and look back at Iron Man here...

I've really gotta get back to upgrading these covers sometime...
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20081.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20083.jpg

IM disappeared from MARVEL'S GREATEST COMICS with the last part of the Titanium Man story. I was lucky to find the IRON MAN ANNUAL with part 3. It then jumped ahead to the 3-part Namor battle, the first time (of several) that it was collected in one book. Too bad the Titanium Man battle didn't get that around this time. Then again, after waiting a YEAR for IRON MAN ANNUAL #2, they did it again! They started with The Crusher, then went into the Titanium Man rematch. The problem-- they cut the number of pages, so instead of 4 episodes, the 2nd Annual only had 3. You'd THINK the proper thing would have been to have all 3 episode of the TT rematch... NOOOOOOO! Instead, part 3 turned up in-- of all places-- MARVEL TALES #32. Honestly!

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/ironman/IM%20A02.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/marveltales/MT%20032.jpg

This actually worked out okay for me, as you can tell by the cover, the LEAD story was the one where Pete & MJ first sat down to dinner and got to know each other. She INSTANTLY became my favorite girl in the Spidey series, and I could never figure why Pete ever felt insecure or uncertain about her and her general attitude. Stuck-up she wasn't! It got particularly spooky for me more than a decade later when I met 2 girls in art school who were a LOT like Gwen and MJ... I wish I'd been thinking of those comics more at the time, I might have acted a lot differently around them than I did.

In effect, IRON MAN is responsible for me starting to buy SPIDER-MAN reprints more often.


But back to IM vs. TT-- AWESOME, MAGNIFICENT, SPECTACULAR, AWE-INSPIRING artwork and action. These things scream for big-screen treatment... but I doubt it'll ever happen.

Anyway, talk about dragging out a sub-plot. For 3 issues, Tony's factory is closed down, and then under siege. Then he decides to go to Washington... and gets interrupted along the way. One begins to wonder, will he EVER make it before that Senate Committee investigating comic-books and juvenile delinquency? (or whatever it was, heh)

The answer, for me, came in MARVEL DOUBLE FEATURE #1, where they decided to continue on with reprints of both Cap & Shellhead. Strangely enough, the reprints were space dabout 10 issues apart, regarding the original SUSPENSE issues. Go figure...

http://www.comics.org/issue/26983/cover/4/?style=default
http://www.comics.org/issue/27176/cover/4/?style=default


Just as HULK became the star of MARVEL SUPER-HEROES reprints, CAP was considered the star of MDF, and Iron Man never appeared on the covers after #2. Just as well, like SUB-MARINER, the IM reprints started having pages CUT. It was quite a revelation when, right after high school, I was able to start going to comic-book conventions regularly, and began buying BACK-ISSUES of the original comics. They were pretty cheap in the late 70s. I wish I'd bought more before the prices shot up.

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20085.jpg

After having used his transporter ray to kidnap Tony Stark (during the Ultimo story), this time Mandarin kidnaps Iron Man (or so he thinks). I guess Tony must have REALLY had it up to here with the guy, considering the outcome of the story this time.

Somewhere around here I've got a large black-light poster of the full-page spread where IM destroyed the walls-closing-in death-trap. Space was at a premium on my walls here, and as I recall, I replaced that with a similar black-light poster of DR. STRANGE meeting Eternity (by Gene Colan & Tom Palmer)! That one's still on the wall right over my drafting table (and large flat-bed scanner).

Re: IRON MAN
#497846 08/16/10 05:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Tales of Suspense #89-90 – Following the Mole Man story, is another firm 2-parter for Iron Man, this time featuring the Melter. In this story, the Melter goes from his early Silver Age look to the more traditional look the Melter was most known by until his death in the 1980’s (BTW, I’m frankly shocked there hasn’t been a Melter II given comic’s penchant for that sort of thing). The Melter portion of the story is a fairly traditional Iron Man superhero story—complete with the Melter attacking Stark’s factory in search of Tony—but what sets it apart is the ingeniousness used by Tony in this story (as opposed to Iron Man), and then the awesome ending, in which Tony dons his original Iron Man armor (the golden one). This is the second time that Iron Man must resort to his original bulkier armor and you can tell this will be something that happens every few years in the Iron Man series. The thought naturally is to play on readers sense of history and nostalgia and I don’t mind it at all, as it actually works on me. The golden armor isn’t my favorite but I love the idea of calling back to those early days.

The cover to #89 is one of my favorite Gene Colan ones.

Something else else I found incredible which I loved is when the cops at the end have the Melter in custody, they refer to Iron Man as “the original Iron Man” (the Melter does too), implying that the general public believes there have been two Iron Men: the original in the gray/golden armor and then the current one in the red & yellow armor. I find this quite fascinating! I can’t recall if this pops up again over the years or not, especially since we’re getting close now to the Iron Man stories I’ve never read, but I like the idea quite a bit. One of the cops asks about Tony Stark and another about ‘the new Iron Man’, to which Iron Man (who is now pretending to be three different people) says “you’ll have to ask those guys”.

The most important part of this story is a natural follow-up to the previous sense of being on the cusp of a new era, in which major changes begin to happen to the supporting cast and subplots as the entire Iron Man strips is in a period of transition. With the construction of a new plant, it seems like everything is changing as well: Senator Byrd at long last relents on Tony ever having to testify about Iron Man and the two part ways with a grudging respect. I have no idea if the Senator ever returns to the series, because I’ve never read a large portion of the 1970’s adventures; I suspect yes because you can’t keep a good Marvel supporting character away forever. More important than that is the major shift occurs at last in the Pepper Potts / Happy Hogan / Tony Stark love triangle which will soon push Happy & Pepper out of being Tony’s big 2 supporting characters. Namely, Pepper realizes it’s Happy she truly loves, and Tony sees it immediately. (Actually Pepper may have only subconsciously shown it, we don’t know if she’s realized it but she will shortly. Tony thus at long last relents on holding out for Pepper and picks up his life as a ‘playboy millionaire bachelor’; the difference between now and the pre-Iron Man days, is this is very much a big act in the same way Bruce Wayne does it. The reasoning though is great: to keep his mind off Pepper, not because he’s doing anything to protect his secret identity.

Bullpen Bulletins
Also of note in this storyline is that on the Bullpen Bulletin’s Page, Stan Lee introduces for his first time “Stan’s Soapbox” which would become a recurring and important part of the Marvel tradition hereafter. The first one discusses the “Marvel Philosophy”, which is to entertain, and in the process, possibly support ideas of intellectualism, humanitarianism, kindness between fellow man, and also do some satire as well (I’m paraphrasing Stan).

Tales of Suspense #91 – For the first time in quite a long time, Suspense features a done in one story in #91, introducing (and then exiting) ‘The Crusher’. Unfortunately, as you might guess from the name, this is one of the weaker Iron Man stories in quite some time; not bad, mind you, just not as strong as the last few outings. What is pretty interesting though is how Fidel Castro clearly is the co-conspirator enemy here, and basically sees Iron Man as one of his nemesis—perhaps because Iron Man’s relentless victories over the Commies (Russian and Chinese), or perhaps because he’s still mad about the last time Iron Man tangled with him in the Scarecrow series? Whatever the case, I enjoy seeing Khrushchev, Castro and General Mao all being Iron Man’s enemies.

More important to the story is the final page—in which Happy Hogan and Pepper Potts show up for the first time in a few issues, and after it’s been established that Happy knows Tony is Iron Man and Pepper actually loves Happy more than Tony. The next evolution of the storyline? Pepper & Happy had eloped off-panel in the time that has passed—officially bringing to a close the Silver Age love triangle of Tony Stark / Pepper Potts / Happy Hogan. While I think perhaps the marriage of Happy & Pepper was a bit rushed (and would have liked to see it), I do appreciate Marvel’s willingness to totally mix-up the series and move it forward. Thor had recently gone through this with the exit of Jane Foster and more focus on Asgard, and to great effect; Spider-Man’s series did the same a year earlier and now was evolving even more with the entrance of Mary Jane, to even greater effect. So it was clear that readers were willing to stick around for an evolving series and likely appreciated it; and creators were more than willing to pick up the pieces and move in a new direction. Pepper & Happy would exit the series soon after, though they would continue to appear pretty much forever after every so often. And yes, naturally some writers would re-tread the Happy / Pepper / Tony love triangle. The recent movie firmly established Pepper as permanently being in the series, and even though Happy is dead (not the first time), I’m sure he’ll be back too. That all being said, this love triangle is probably my single favorite love triangle of all time (I don’t really consider the Gwen/MJ era as being a love triangle…more like a love quadrangle, or more if you consider Flash, and Peter was clearly with Gwen and after her death, clearly with MJ).

This period of transition was exciting when I was a teenager and still exciting now, just like it was in Thor and Spider-Man. Even though Tony’s happiness for Pepper and Happy seems a bit too much (he basically just takes it happily without any sadness of never having Pepper), it also kind of shows a maturity for Tony that Peter Parker also showed when he clearly was never going to be with Betty Brant.

Other Marvel Comics at this Time
By this time, Marvel was making big moves on its line-up of titles, though the major move was about a year away (the splitting of the three anthologies into 6 titles, plus 2 more). But it really kicks off with Ghost Rider becoming the 4th bi-monthly western (and anyone reading this should check out Prof’s ‘Westerns’ thread for some great discussion on it), all the other romance titles ending except Millie the Model (though more were to come at the dawn of the Bronze Age), and the introduction of a wacky parody title called ‘Not Brand Echh’. By now, the joke of calling the competition‘Brand Echh’ (which they said was all their competitors but clearly was DC Comics) had been going on for years and had become a staple of the monthly Bullpen Page and Letter’s Page. It really reached fruition here, and become an experimental, year & a half of pure parody in which no one was safe—including Marvel’s own characters. ‘Not Brand Echh’ to me singles the final chapter of the Silver Age for Marvel, while also showing Marvel’s willingness to try out other genres & tones in their comics—after all, most creators still believed superheroes had a limited shelf-life like in the Golden Age. It was in NBE that ‘Forbush Man’, the culmination of the Irving Forbush in-jokes, at last debuted.

Dawn of the No-Prize
Another interesting tidbit is in July 1967, the Bullpen Bulletins page also announces that although the No-Prize had existed for several years, and was in fact ‘no prize at all’, so many fans had requested some form of proof for getting one, that Marvel would indeed begin sending out an actual official No-Prize to readers who deserved on. Doing this was yet another way for Marvel to have real interaction with its fans and became a notorious part of Marvel for at least three more decades. It’s a shame no one tries to get these anymore and they aren’t handed out (I believe it’s just a piece of paper). It was such a part of Marvel for so long…having it was a way to keep things light & fun. I may have to start trying to get one again and bring this back.

Re: IRON MAN
#497847 08/16/10 05:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
"The Mole Man had appeared in numerous other titles, specifically the Fantastic Four (and Shellhead even battled him in Avengers). While I appreciate the Mole Man, he’s not one of the villains I’ve clamored to see in upcoming issues."

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20087.jpg

To me, there are 3 "classic" Mole Man stories, his first 3, all in FF. After that, beginning with his appearance in AVENGERS, then HULK, he just impressed me less and less. San may have wanted deliberately to show Marvel was a "shared universe", but in many cases, when one series' villain turned up in another series, they somehow lost what made them special as a villain.

Gene's art is magnificent, as usual; he would do another Mole Man story, inked by BILL EVERETT, in CAPTAIN AMERICA a few years down the line. (Looking at Everett's inks in the original printing, they had the kind of fine detail usually reserved for "legal tender" (MONEY). Like-- HOW is it possible for a human being to render linework like that?

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/captainamerica/CA%20135.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/captainamerica/CA%20136.jpg
These covers don't even HINT at the magnificent vcisuals inside the books.


"The most interesting part of the story is the main Stark Industries factory in Long Island was sucked into a subterranean cavern and then at the end—destroyed!. This kind of creates an interesting symmetry to the previous story as now yet another recurring location—and the major one—has been completely destroyed."

Interesting observation!


"Also curious to know about Arnold Drake, which I’m curious about, since he was a long-time DCer."

Arnold had a long career working for quite a few companies, and did all kinds of genre books-- horror, romance, humor. Though i didn't know it, my first exposure to him was an issue of JERRY LEWIS, which featured a "haunted house" inhabited by "Krankenstein", "Count Drinkula" and "Dog-Boy"!

http://images.comics.org//img/gcd/covers_by_id/70/w400/70720.jpg?5767558948402809120

The other thing I got with him was a NOT BRAND ECCH where he parodied NICK FURY #3-- "Dark Moon Rise, HECK Hound HURT!" ("You know us, we don't wanna hurt anybody") Instead of a hell-hound, a huge image of SNOOPY was seen munching away at a Scotsman's bagpipes. Crazy thing, it was illustrated by Frank Springer, who had taken over the real NICK FURY book at the time!

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/_ROM-HUM/notbrandechh/NBE%2011.jpg

After creating DOOM PATROL and writing every single episode of its original run, he came up with one of the coolest new idea ever in comics-- DEADMAN--

http://www.comics.org/issue/21336/cover/4/?style=default
http://www.comics.org/issue/21424/cover/4/?style=default

--only to have it YANKED away by editor Jack Miller, who asked HIS boss if he could write it himself to make extra money. Arnold had tried organizing some of the staff to get medical benefits around that time, and quickly became persona-non-grata. A long admirer of Marvel (F.F. in particular), he switched to Marvel, only to find himself dumped into the middle of a pair of MESSES caused by others, where he had a rough uphill battle trying to make something out them. Thsi was X-MEN (at the point where the group had broken up), and CAPTAIN MARVEL (a disaster-in-the-making if ever there was one). I was never impressed with his work on those book originally, but in retrospecvt, many years later, i could see what he was trying to do, and what he was up against. I really feel he was MUCH BETTER than the writers he replaced (and those who replaced him), but with bad story situations to deal with, Don Heck on pencils on both books and REALLY BAD INKS dragging Don's work down, it's no wonder it was a struggle getting thru those issues.


Arnold, because of his rep from DC, did not get along well with Stan, and when Stan felt his 2 books needed "saving", he was kicked off unceremoniously. In both cases, Roy Thomas' efforts FAILED to save either book from cancellation. Maybe they should have given Arnold more rope?

I understand he did quite a few stories for BORIS KARLOFF TALES OF MYSTERY and STAR TREK later on.

Re: IRON MAN
#497848 08/16/10 06:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
Leader
OP Offline
Leader
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,455
"Gil Kane always said he LOVED the Marvel method and made it seem like it was *true* Marvel method in that he got some plotting help, did the story and then the writer did the dialogue. I know he worked with Stan and then Roy on Spidey, so I wonder the involvement with Stan and others?"

Here's the shocking thing I found out recently hanging out at the Kirby-L Yahoo Group. When Gil Kane worked on SPIDER-MAN, Stan wasn't supplying him with plots or plot ideas... JOHN ROMITA was. Yes, even on issues where John DIDN'T pencil, or DIDN'T ink, he was still plotting the book! (This also goes for all the issues John Buscema pencilled as well.)

It's notable that, when Stan stepped down, and Gerry Conway "took over" the book, the credits listed JOHN ROMITA before Conway! Romita was plotting for himself, then Gil Kane, then (briefly) Ross Andru, and Gerry was filling in the word balloons (just as Stan had been doing since late in the Ditko era). It's my belief that when Romita stopped inking, replaced first by Jim Mooney, then Frank Giacoia & Dave Hunt (they were a team), that Gerry began plotting himself. The whole tone of the book changed right then, and it wasn't just because Andru was pencilling. My guess is, since Andru was a longtime DC man, that he preferred detailed plots or full scripts.

When Gil Kane was pencilling, he definitely was contributing to the plots. not sure what the percentage was, but as you said, with Kane you had real "Marvel Method".

Kane's 3rd CAPTAIN MARVEL, according to Roy, was plotted 100% by Kane. Maybe that's why I can't stand that issue (the "Murder Maze" story about the futuristic apartment building that turns out to be one big death trap designed as a scientific experiment-- by a madman).


"One I’m curious about is Bill Everett when he started doing Namor again. I’d suspect as Namor’s creator he was doing the majority of the work, but then again, who knows?"

I had no idea back in the early 70's when I read those ASTONISH episodes in reprints, but recently, it's painfully obvious to me Everett was writing the book himself-- just as he was on DR. STRANGE. Except, Stan wouldn't let him do his own dialogue! On SUB-MARINER, first Stan, then Roy (maybe some others) did the dialogue, while on DR. STRANGE, Denny O'Neil murdered the dialogue with his excessively over-wordy seriousness.

When Everett FINALLY took over SUB-MARINER again in 1972, the difference was startling. It went overnight from one of the most depressing, pointless things they published to a really FUN, EXCITING adventure series... as it always should have been. I totally agreed with one letter they printed that said, "After 49 unreadable issues, the book finally got good."


"the side discs around his belt stick out enough where it feels like he has two high-techno holsters"

"Iron Rider" ?

Ever notice Jack Kirby almost NEVER draws those things on the sides?


"The cover to #89 is one of my favorite Gene Colan ones."
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20089.jpg

Now that BUGS me... there is NOTHING "mysterious" about The Melter!!! (Stan just loved alliteration.)


"they refer to Iron Man as “the original Iron Man” (the Melter does too)"

I dunno... doesn't it just make them seem DUMB?


"Senator Byrd at long last relents on Tony ever having to testify about Iron Man and the two part ways with a grudging respect."

I completely understood why he wanted Stark to turn over the IM armor for military use. His insisting on knowing IM's IDENTITY never made any sense to me at all! And, WHY relent on both counts? Did somebody behind-the-scenes decide our men in Viet Nam could do without it after all? I think our men in IRAQ these days would have other ideas about that.


"soon push Happy & Pepper out of being Tony’s big 2 supporting characters"

The part I don't get is, why did they BOTH quit their jobs when they got married? Did they think suddenly, Tony didn't need them anymore? These are FRIENDS? (Or was working at Stark's plant just too dangerous, especially after it got sucked down into the Earth's core? Wouldn't ALL his employees feel that way if that were the case?)


"The reasoning though is great: to keep his mind off Pepper"

In a very different way, this is something I can relate to quite a lot. More than once I've found myself writing some comic-book stories just to keep my mind off other things.


introducing (and then exiting) ‘The Crusher’

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/suspense/TOS%20091.jpg
http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/ironman/IM%20A02.jpg

...and then there's...

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/ironman/IM%20006.jpg


"more like a love quadrangle, or more if you consider Flash"

But-- what about HARRY? (He once referred to "between your MJ and my Gwen", which stupidly wound up bugging Pete no end.)

Re: IRON MAN
#497849 08/17/10 07:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Tales of Suspense #92-94 – After a series of less threatening tales, things get deadly serious once more as Iron Man has another three-parter in the last of the great three Silver Age Titanium Man stories. This one must have been a special shock to the readers as his identity is completely secret in the first issue, and his appearance kind of comes out of left field (especially as it previously was implied he died). While of this is slightly less good than the previous two, which is natural that each subsequent one would be a little ‘less special’, it’s still quite good.

First off, the setting is quite relevant: Viet Nam. Though Thor had been to Viet Nam earlier, and Iron Man’s origin was in Viet Nam, those stories were published at a time when Viet Nam was a little less controversial. Here, in 1967, Viet Nam was on the minds of everyone and beginning to be a major dividing point in the country. Stan & Gene do a great job at avoiding the controversy while still showcasing a very heroic Iron Man. The very fact that he was in Viet Nam must have been memorable at the time.

Interestingly, the story is a very pro-American story for Iron Man and the GI’s in the beginning—this was natural for an Iron Man story after all. But Marvel fans know that Marvel was purely a liberal publisher, by far the most in the comics industry and that would be more apparent as time went on. On the Bullpen Bulletin’s Page, Stan even asks readers if Marvel should ‘editorialize more’ in their stories, by giving their opinions on things such as Civil Rights, Viet Nam and other topics that dominated the 60’s. I know the answer: most readers said ‘yes’; and that would be the case over the years. Though clearly not radical in their beliefs, Marvel’s stories always took a more liberal bent. So you have two separate things happening here: Marvel’s gradual shift to a more liberal outlook at a company, while Iron Man was firmly still the traditional hero of a more jingoistic era.

Gene Colan does an amazing job as always here and once again his Titanium Man is a wonder to behold. I especially like the way he draws the GI’s in Viet Nam in the first issue; I’d have liked to seen a Colan war comic! In the final issue of the 3-parter, Dan Adkins (then doing the Sub-Mariner) inks his pencils and it’s a very different effect. The lines are much thinner, producing a more refined Vince Colleta effect. Not as visually appealing to me as Jack Abel or Frank Giaocia, but an interesting change.

The Titanium Man is as threatening as ever, and though Iron Man defeats him for a third time, it’s only after the Titanium Man hands him a beating in the second issue. With three instant classic stories, the Titanium Man is clearly the 2nd best enemy of Iron Man in the Silver Age (after the Mandarin)—even moreso than the Black Widow. It’s truly a shame he’s lost his luster so much over the years, but that’s just comics. Because it was the same person in the armor in each story, and because he was so well defined in the first story, it also adds to the effect as he and Tony Stark clearly despise one another. The way the Titanium Man and the Mandarin have been appearing every few months recalls how the Kingpin and Dr. Octopus were doing the same in Spider-Man.

An addition to the story is Half-Face, a Vietnamese scientist who kind of feels like a James Bond villain more than anything. He’s the “Oriental version of Tony Stark” in the issue, which is telling—his origin is a combination of Vietnamese history and Chinese history, implying the two are almost one and the same; a common misconception of the Viet Nam situation in the mid-60’s. Half-Face’s turn of heart at the close of the story adds a layer of depth to the character that is grossly needed. It makes me suddenly wonder if we’ll ever see him again? We’re fast approaching an era where I’ve only read some of the stories and there are many I’ve never seen before. I’m curious if he’ll pop up.

Letter’s Page
#92 features a letter form the one and only Walt Simonson! I wonder if this is the same Walt? If it is, it’s completely ironic: he’s telling Stan that Gene does a great job but his art may be too stylized. Well, Walt would certainly reverse that train of thought with his career!

Captain America
These issues also introduce Modok to the world in Cap’s stories. I had to take a gander—only Kirby could have ever introduced so gruesome a villain!

Tales of Suspense #95-96 – Following the third Titanium Man story, a focus on Tony Stark’s private life returns and the transition to a new era really kicks off: we get the first glimpse of a new supporting character, Jasper Sitwell, Agent of SHIELD, who joins the cast. I had previously thought Happy & Pepper showed up one more time but they didn’t, so I guess I was wrong? Their prior appearance, in which they announced their wedding, must have been their last for awhile. Thus, a major whole is left (along with the departure of Senator Byrd), and Sitwell helps fill it (though the series will need more than just him).

I admit when I was a kid I didn’t like Sitwell at all. I shared Tony’s annoyance of him, though mainly it was because he didn’t seem anywhere near as interesting as Happy & Pepper, whom I loved. This time around, I plan on giving him another chance. At the very least, he does have some funny one-liners, and the entire point of this story is to establish that he’s loyal, courageous and someone Iron Man can depend on.

The story featured the Grey Gargoyle, whom while I’ve always liked except that I’ve never really read any great stories with, other than his first appearance battling Thor in Journey into Mystery. Here a great deal is made out of his powers, which is good because it makes him different than the other enemies Iron Man has fought. In future years, for whatever reason, the Grey Gargoyle would fall into the villain of the week category in various series. Clearly, though, the GG took a backseat to the introduction to Sitwell.

Re: IRON MAN
#497850 08/17/10 08:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Quote
Originally posted by profh0011:
Here's the shocking thing I found out recently hanging out at the Kirby-L Yahoo Group. When Gil Kane worked on SPIDER-MAN, Stan wasn't supplying him with plots or plot ideas... JOHN ROMITA was. Yes, even on issues where John DIDN'T pencil, or DIDN'T ink, he was still plotting the book! (This also goes for all the issues John Buscema pencilled as well.)

It's notable that, when Stan stepped down, and Gerry Conway "took over" the book, the credits listed JOHN ROMITA before Conway! Romita was plotting for himself, then Gil Kane, then (briefly) Ross Andru, and Gerry was filling in the word balloons (just as Stan had been doing since late in the Ditko era). It's my belief that when Romita stopped inking, replaced first by Jim Mooney, then Frank Giacoia & Dave Hunt (they were a team), that Gerry began plotting himself. The whole tone of the book changed right then, and it wasn't just because Andru was pencilling. My guess is, since Andru was a longtime DC man, that he preferred detailed plots or full scripts.
I find this so fascinating! It’s clear that Stan’s involvement with Spider-Man was minimal since during Ditko’s days, but the idea of Romita actually plotting out the stories for Buscema and Kane is just incredible. It enhances my love & respect for Johnny R even more! It shows that Romita really had a feel for the strip and the direction it should go into. His years working on romance titles keened him into enhancing the soap opera elements so even when the stories had a heavy action focus, it never lost sight of the drama going on in the supporting cast (something some of the other Marvel titles were successful in doing but never quite as much as in Spider-Man).

Quote
Originally posted by profh0011:
"more like a love quadrangle, or more if you consider Flash"

But-- what about HARRY? (He once referred to "between your MJ and my Gwen", which stupidly wound up bugging Pete no end.)
Oh, certainly—Harry is the 4th in Quadrangle!

Quote
Originally posted by profh0011:
Ever notice Jack Kirby almost NEVER draws those things on the sides?
You mentioned it before and I meant to comment on it—you’re totally right, Kirby always seemed to forget these! Don Heck would kind of keep them more subtly, almost as if they were a minor design in Iron Man’s costume. But with Gene, they really stand out and enhance his look in a big way, just like a lot of the other parts of the armor do (namely the circular chest plate and the nozels). Even cooler, Gene actually has Tony using the side discs, making them some sort of repowering system he can connect to, with one into a power source and the other into his chest plate. It really makes the armor come alive in a big way.

Your above comments about Arnold Drake’s treatment by Jack Miller goes along with everything I ever heard about Miller. Miller had all the bad qualities of Mort & Julie, but none of the creative genius. By all accounts he was a bastard, but one who could be extremely productive (even if they weren’t DC’s best).

I’m moving along the timeline now, and will be getting to the transition to Iron Man’s own series, so I can’t wait to hear more comments about some of the other bullpen additions that are to come (Archie Goodwin for one). Your 60’s and 70’s threads are chalk full of that awesome commentary.

Re: IRON MAN
#497851 08/17/10 08:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Tales of Suspense #97-99 – Continued right from the previous story, the final Iron Man story in Tales of Suspense is a three-parter, featuring the Maggia and introducing another of Iron Man’s longtime recurring foes, Whiplash. The story is a solid one, an excellent Iron Man story featuring a plethora of characters and enemies, and beautifully rendered by Gene Colan.

As a kid I always wondered why Marvel called them “the Maggia” rather than the Mafia, and after all these years, I find it kind of amusing. This story kicks off the mystery of who ‘Big M’ is, the new leader of the Maggia. Had he previously appeared elsewhere? The Maggia is such a broadly used organization in the MU, basically meaning all organized crime across the entire globe, that it often seems disjointed (for example, the original Silvermane story is more traditional Mafia; this one seems more like a Hydra type organization.

Whiplash is a character I’ve always liked, and his entrance into Iron Man’s rogues gallery is very needed: Titanium Man & the Mandarin has been incredibly over-used lately, while past enemies Hawkeye, Black Widow, Black Knight and Crimson Dynamo had all died or moved on. A new enemy that could recur was just what the doctor ordered, and his very different look & color scheme and choice of weaponry made him stand out.

Morgan Stark returns in this story—a character I already expressed my dislike for—and even though he’s still as unlikable as ever, he’s actually put to good use here. Characters like Morgan, who are pathetic, greedy and have no accountability, are the worst of the worst, but they can be useful to the plot. The way Tony is so dismissive of him is fitting and in a guilty pleasure way, fun to see. He’s okay in small doses, so long as he doesn’t stick around too long.

I really like that this story takes place on an illegal gambling boat on international waters. Very Raymond Chandler-esque! Iron Man always has a history with cool locations for stories and this keeps that going.

One of the best parts of this story, and probably one of the most frustrating for new readers who prepared to pick-up Iron Man’s solo adventures, is the story doesn’t end! Rather than a complete ending, a huge game-changer is thrown in, as AIM appears and attacks the Maggia, creating a huge super-villain organization war! I had forgotten all about this ending and was pleasantly shocked by it! And so, while Iron Man leaves Suspense, he’s in the midst of major trouble and on the verge of death!

The series also includes one of the major transitionary factors from Suspense to Iron Man: Stan Lee begins as the writer of the story but by the end, the incredible Archie Goodwin comes on as writer. I’m a huge fan of Archie Goodwin and I’m looking forward to reading what is to come. Archie was a tremendous writer, an incredible editor and by all accounts, one of the best people ever in comics.

The Major Changes at Marvel
During the course of this story, Marvel undergoes perhaps its most major change when you consider a company going from one thing to the next. At first, it’s a few smaller things: Fantasy Masterpieces, a reprint title, becomes Marvel Super-Heroes, and within introduces the first brand new hero to get their own new feature since Daredevil, Captain Marvel; the X-Men go from their traditional blue & yellow costumes into graduating into all having their own costumes; Daredevil finally ends the “Mike Murdock” phase and moves on to its next phase; Thor gets a new back-up instead of Tales of Suspense, namely the Inhumans, spinning out of Fantastic Four and starring in their first solo adventures for the first time (recapping their awesome origins). And the Avengers go through a major transition in both their own title, and somewhat in Captain America’s strip: while the Black Panther also spins out of Fantastic Four and meets Cap (setting up his soon to happen membership in the Avengers), the Avengers lose Captain America, Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver and then Hercules. The Black Knight is formally introduced and soon the Black Panther will join (and soon after, the Vision, and then even more changes). All in all, Marvel was changing quite a bit!

But most importantly, the big change was that the three long-running anthology titles (former Marvel Monster titles) were going to be split up once and for all, and each of the 6 strips would get their own ongoing. For Tales of Suspense, it would be a transition to Captain America (something I always found odd as this was always Iron Man’s title); Tales to Astonish would become the Hulk; Strange Tales would become Dr. Strange. Thus Iron Man, Sub-Mariner and Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD would all launch into their own titles. To top it all off, two other characters would get their own comics: the Silver Surfer and the recently introduced Captain Marvel, while Marvel Super-Heroes would continue to introduce oddball ideas such as the Guardians of the Galaxy and the Phantom Eagle. Marvel would even introduce a second war title, Captain Savage and his Leatherneck Raiders, and would try other things, such as Groovy, showing their attempts to expand in every way they could.

This explosion of titles was huge. In actuality, it was Marvel getting out at last from under the thumb of DC Comics, who controlled their distribution like the gangster-businessmen they always were. But the effect must have been extraordinary! The three traditional monster titles were gone and in their place were 8 superhero titles! It’s exciting even now to look at this transition.

For Iron Man and the Sub-Mariner (and Nick Fury), they would not get their own titles right away—there would be a month wait. So in that wait, to keep fans interested, Marvel would launch a one-shot Iron Man / Sub-Mariner special, re-teaming the two once again after their very recent melee.

Tales of Suspense and the original Marvel Silver Age titles hold a special nostalgic place in my heart. I’m thrilled I reread the Suspense stories for the first time since I was 13-15. I plan on continuing with Iron Man’s stories and I’m excited—you see, most of these I’ve never read before! Some I have, some I haven’t but the main thing is, I’ve never read them all the way through in one sitting. This should be a blast.

Re: IRON MAN
#497852 08/17/10 09:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
Bold Flavors
Offline
Bold Flavors
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 34,634
(PS - while I had the Suspense issues here, I don't have the Iron Man ones, so I'll have to pick those up at my parent's next week!)

Page 3 of 10 1 2 3 4 5 9 10

Link Copied to Clipboard
ShoutChat
Forum Statistics
Forums14
Topics21,028
Posts1,046,664
Legionnaires1,730
Most Online53,886
Jan 7th, 2024
Newest Legionnaires
Anonymous Girl, Mimi, max kord, Duke, CBSutherland2000
1,730 Registered Legionnaires
Today's Birthdays
faelon
Random Holo-Vids
Who's Who in the LMBP
Nekogami
Nekogami
Canada, Earth
Posts: 25
Joined: July 2004
ShanghallaLegion of Super-Heroes & all related proper names & images are ™ & © material of DC Comics, Inc. & are used herein without its permission.
This site is intended solely to celebrate & publicize these characters & their creators.
No commercial benefit, nor any use beyond the “fair use” review & commentary provisions of United States copyright law, is either intended or implied.
Posts made on this message board must not be reproduced without the author's consent.
The Legion World Star
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5