Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Green Arrow

Shado and Ollie definitely had a 'connection' but IMO it was always more as kindred archer/warrior spirits than as 'lovers'. It's also true that the scene in question was vague (hence my referring to the rape as an 'interpretation') and that Ollie (as far as I recall) never referred to it as rape or reported it as such. But then, a rape doesn't have to be reported to exist.

I actually think the scene could be read either way and am not a strong advocate for either interpretation over the other.

One thing I do feel strongly about though is that it was an intense, vulnerable moment for Ollie when he was not in full control of his senses and thoughts, and it shouldn't be held up as evidence by the legion of Ollie-haters who want to paint him as a cad.

(Not that I'm saying anyone here was doing so but if you ask any Green Arrow-hater out there for a reason why and 9 times out of 10 they'll give you this one.)

<= Not a hater at all.

I've always liked Green Arrow, and Hawkeye as well at Marvel. Both are similar for obvious reasons and because, well, their personalities have been more distinct than most of their heroic brethren. I love their swashbuckling sensibilities and the real passion they seem to put into what they do.

Between the two, I've definitely been partial to Ollie. Doesn't hurt at all that Ollie had a long solo run with Mike Grell at the writing helm. Since then, he was killed off and mostly handled hideously ever since. I liked Kevin Smith's stories, had mixed feelings about Meltzer's arc and Winnick finally drove me off the book after a fairly strong start to his run.

So with all that in mind, I'm not so sure that even Grell's version has ever seemed like a monogamous type. **I always loved him and Dinah as a couple, though.** It always seemed inevitable that Ollie was going to stray eventually, and when Shado showed up, I knew something would eventually happen between them. I think maybe Mike was afraid to make it outright cheating in the end, so he created the scenario as it happened to smooth it over somewhat.

Heroes like Ollie's type are thrillseekers by nature. I distinguish this type from Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and many others in a way. Ollie was originally a rich guy who was not driven by some profound tragedy that drove what he did. This is not to lessen his heroism, but he is still primarily a thrillseeker living a testosterone-driven fantasy. He's less likely to live by society's rules and may ultimately not be satisfied in a monogamous relationship.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to **** anything that moves like Winnick seemed to have him do, but his not being able to keep a monogamous relationship seems to fit his character profile, IMO. I think he genuinely loves Dinah, but there's a narcissism there that will make it harder for him than most to truly commit, I think.

Lardy, Blacula, both you guys make really good points. I haven't read most of the stories in question, as what little I've read of the Grell run was not to my liking -- I found it too self-consciously "adult" and "serious" (I really wish Grell had been given Batman instead of Green Arrow.) To be perfectly honest, nobody since Denny O'Neil really seems to "get" Ollie IMO. The one who came closest for me was Mike W. Barr in the 1983 mini-series that Trevor Von Eeden drew, but even there Ollie was a bit too mellow.

It's a really hard balancing act for a writer between the devil-may-care thrill-seeker and the self-appointed savior of the downtrodden. Some talented (and some not-so-talented) writers have tried and failed; it's therefore inevitable that Ollie often comes off as a caricature. Nocenti is facing a considerable challenge, but I think she's up to the task.

I'm curious to see what Ann does as well. Difference is, this ain't the same Ollie! He's been de-aged and is much more of a clean slate. I suppose it had to be done, though, because Ollie's character had been ripped to shreds over the last few years.

I couldn't stick with the current series beyond issue 2 the way it was, so I'm awaiting next week's issue 7 to see if she can revitalize the character. I'm hopeful!

Agreed. While I'm still getting used to the idea of the clean slate, not just for Ollie but for most of the rest of the DC characters, I think Ollie needed it for sure.

Ollie and Roy were just demolished, especially in the wake of Cry for Justice. It's interesting that Donna and Wally are nowhere to be seen, but nu-Roy is around in the Red Hood and the Outlaws book and is probably about the same age as nu-Ollie. Has any relationship between the two been established at all in either series?

There was some reference that Ollie had done some nasty back-stabbing deal to screw Roy out of Q-Corp, which drove Roy into alcoholic depression. (Maybe both their fathers started the company? It wasn't stated. And I don't recall if this was stated in GA or Red Hood.)

I've kept with the series so far, mostly out of inertia, waiting for the Nocenti arc. It's been okay, but pretty pedestrian super-hero fare. I'm still hoping that the potential for a great non-superpowered character will be developed by Ms. Nocenti.

I liked Ann Nocenti's first issue.

Without spoiling much, she does a typically nice job of subverting sexist expectations with Skylark, her new triple threat to Ollie.

She also has a good handle on Ollie. He's not the caricature that he often becomes when writers aren't trying hard enough, but a believeable, likeable, flawed but sympathetic character.

Havent read it yet but I'm hearing good things!

Yeah, Rich Johnston called it "batshit crazy," but in context he obviously meant it in the best possible way.

Just read the first Nocenti issue.
Crazy, crazy, crazy!!
I loved it!!

Liked the story, didn't care for the art. Too cutesy.

Got to Nocenti's first issue today. It was kinda "batshit crazy" and in a good way! Not the best thing I've ever read, but it had some energy and gumption to it.

I also enjoyed Tolibao's hyperkinetic art. It had a little J. Scott Campbell influence to it and a touch of grit as well. I'd say as this guy develops, he can only get better and better.

I'm onboard for a few issues. So far Nocenti's take feels pretty fresh and not derivative of other takes on Ollie. Let's see where it goes!

I don't know if I've liked the Nocenti story so far or not. That's wishy-washy, but it was batshit crazy to the point that it reminded me of a movie like Airplane, satire and joking clichés. Everything was extremes. Maybe comparing it to a James Bond film would be more accurate. Nocenti has a reputation for dealing with social and environmental issues, but the problems related to Leer's takeover of the mine just seemed like a flippant side issue.

I figured with a name like Leer and three daughters there would have been more scheming and infighting among the girls, but the original Lear wasn't a villain, so that plot wasn't appropriate.

Interesting ending to the arc, though. It looks like Ollie has some challenges waiting for him back home, so I guess I'll stick with the book for a while.

I didn't really love this story. It was okay, but I found myself skimming after awhile--by the finale, I just didn't have any in investment in the characters, including Ollie, or the plot.

The art also through me off. I'm not sure if it was the mix with the colors or whatever, but I didn't find it appealing at all.

Sad to say I gave up on Green Arrow after the second Nocenti issue. It's not just that I thought her writing wasn't up to her standards -- it's mainly that I cannot find any way to invest myself emotionally in this "beardless youth" version of Ollie.

Ah, well, there's always the old stories to look back on.

I didn't much like the first Nocenti arc, although thinking about it she may have been saying something about how women will sell their souls - or abandon their independence - for the illusion of love. (Assuming true love would not demand you give up your independence....) In that sense, the story was interesting, and Green Arrow was more or less superfluous, or interchangeable with any guy who happened along to challenge Daddy.

However, I thought Issue #10 (a done-in-one story!) was a big notch above the initial arc. Ironically, again, Green Arrow himself was somewhat irrelevant - only the agent to uncover and move the story along. A news reporter or determined nosy parker could have done the same (except knock out the big bad monster with a fancy arrow).

Arrow prevents a young woman from committing suicide when she runs her motorcycle off a bridge. Thankful? No. She is, or thinks she is, a robot and wants to end it. Ollie Queen investigates and finds a company selling domestic robots. He investigates further as Green Arrow and finds this company giving people robotic body parts, some a few, some a lot - and a chip which suppresses emotions and memories. The owner claims that people come to him because they're tired of their humanity. Are they? Are they robots or humans at this point? They don't know, and GA and the reader are left guessing. The story ends with a visit to Robots Anonymous, a group where these robot/human mixes can go to be open about their adaptations.

It's a very interesting take on the post-human idea.

I just read that one myself and I have to say it was about the best DCnU book of the month. GA just went from near-dropped to must-get status with me.

I have to say that both the writing and the art of the new team is not cutting it for me.

In fact, most of the reboot isn't.

I really only like Nightwing, Green Lantern, World's finest, and ressurection man.

even GL is lacking. Not in art but in story heart. Aquaman is pretty good, but Ivan is saving it mostly.

Makes me wonder how many of the coveted "new fans" crop has stuck around for the long haul.

Told my lcs to drop it with 12 today. This just wasn't cutting it.

Now GA will be written by Jeff Lemire, but I'm still keeping it off the list. He's going to take away Ollie's fortune and support group, with some focus on his island experience/father issues. It sounds like a combination of the TV show Arrow and Grell's man of the people.

Regardless, my archer love is reserved for Hawkeye, for the foreseeable future.

So i'm gonna try it for a few issues. I love the character and that's getting it a try out more than anything. I dropped it when Winnick was on it, and I dropped it when it was obvious that it just flat out sucked a few issues into this run.

Lemire is becoming the new IT guy at DC, but it's because he's good, not DC unjustly hyping him.

Right now, DC is, after me reading them for over 30 years, fallen to the position of having to earn my money, not just getting it because they tell stories about characters I love.

I'm also doing the same. I'm letting a few months build up before I dive in. I'm also a major GA fan, and would love to have a decent series again after what feels like forever.

Ollie Queen -- is there any male DC character who's been dragged through the mud more than him? Changed from a noble class-warfare rebel to a priapic clown and/or a pig-headed jerk, killed off, de-aged...sheesh!

It seems so simple and straightforward to write Ollie, but, as someone who has written him more than once in fanfics, the execution of this character is like pulling teeth, no matter how much the writer loves him. Ollie has definitely suffered from not only writers who didn't love him or who misunderstood him, but from readers' misperceptions of him. As much as I love most of what Grant Morrison said in his non-comics book Supergods, his (and that idiot Tom Peyer's) assessment of Ollie as a dirty old man jumping about the peace and love bandwagon is so off-base it's offensive!

Denny O'Neil took a cipher of a character and made him awesome. So why has it been so hard to sustain that awesomeness??

Here's something I said a few years ago:



What do the rest of you think makes Ollie tick?

I thought he was fairly 'armless myself.