Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Spider-Man thread!

Wow, really? I guess any change in the status quo runs that risk with someone who's enjoying the series. For me, it was clearly the Clone Saga and specifically when the writers "revealed" that Peter was the clone all this time. Since then, it's been a series of sharks jumped, culminating with One More Day. Since then, there's been nothing so offensive, though Kraven's return may come closest.

Was Norman ever this great nemesis first time round, though? After ASM #39, he was constantly getting bumped on the head to "forget" his Goblininity after all, and his use to kill off Gwen Stacy was largely "this guy's going nowhere, let's kill him off in a way that changes the series and replace him". Doc Ock was the big nemesis until the Clone Saga, really.

Having said you specifically don't want a "straight-up mercenary" Goblin, it behooves you to now say why not

You say that, but how many of them have been satisfactorily resolved? The Hobgoblin mess is well known, the original Green Goblin revelation was a cheat (using a character introduced long after the ID was teased) and apart from that there's just the Bart Hamilton thing.

The big glider-scar on his chest is a clue.

I'd agree in terms of getting rid of him (although the choice of replacement is poor). But with the shadow of OMD still over the series and Slott writing, it's still hovering over the shark anyway.

As for "controversial to fans of Stern"... notice how few of Stern's favoured characters get any play from other writers? [CM2/Photon is the archetypical example - a lead character in Stern's Avengers run, written out almost immediately by Walt Simonson on the basis that she "had one of the dullest costumes ever foisted on comic book readers with a personality to match", and seeing only background/trademark renewal/"running joke with Genis stealing her codenames" use until she was given to Warren Ellis on a "no-one cares, do what you like" basis for Nextwave].

I read the conclusion to the first "Big Time" arc, and I found it to be a satisfying conclusion! It didn't totally rock my world, but the fact that it was the most enjoyable story arc of the regular, non-Ultimate Spidey I've read in YEARS (maybe since the original JMS Morlun story?) is significant. It was just a good, solid story that gave me pretty much everything I wanted out of a Spidey arc.

Like I said in my review of 650 (on the previous page), Humberto Ramos's art really grew on me here. His style seems perfect for Spidey. I assumed I'd hate it, but I enjoyed it for the most part.

Spidey should be a fun, breezy read most of the time. Dan Slott is capturing that very well in his first 4 issues. The humor is classic Spidey with Slott using some fresh ideas to bring the humor across. Last issue, it was gimmick with the brackets subbing for bits of dialogue other characters weren't into. This issue it was the empty dialogue bubble to reflect Spidey's noise-cancelling costume.

I like how Slott incorporated the Kingpin and Montana into the storyline and even had a couple of possible longterm consequences by the end. I'm also enjoying the looming return of Mac Gargan as the Scorpion and of Alistair Smythe as the Spider-Slayer.

And that last bit which pretty much establishes Phil Urich as kind of an anti-Peter Parker was a terrific bit of subtle work on Slott's part. Really an ingenious move that is helping me warm up to the new Hobgoblin a little more than I thought I would as recently as last issue. If Slott handles the character this well moving forward, I will be pleased.

Well, dman, I'm buying Amazing Spider-Man again! Who'da thunk it? I think Slott has written himself into me at least giving ASM an extended try-out. If he can keep up this level of quality, I'll be buying longterm again!

Lardy's Rating of ASM 648-651 "Big Time": 4 Donuts! (out of five)

Definitely check out the trade!

From one of my Yahoo groups...


Work contineus at the SA Marvel site. For the Spidey section, just wrote this for the 4th "Thumbnails" page. It's tricky trying to say a lot
in only 4 lines of text. "Links" (at the site) up the wazoo.


"With the Oct 1970-dated issues, all hell broke loose. Jack Kirby left for DC,
causing Stan to yank John Romita
off Spidey and have him do Fantastic Four instead. Fresh from Captain Marvel,
Spidey's new artist was Gil Kane,
just in time for the uncalled-for death of Captain Stacy. As before, Romita
remained on the book as "de facto"
editor, still supplying plots, covers, and occasional interiors."


My view has long been that AMAZING SPIDER-MAN has been an almost endless series
of "jumping the shark" moments. This is when something happens that is SO bad,
so DRASTICALLY off-putting, that somehow, the series NEVER really recovers. But
unlike TV series, where such an event eventually (usually soon) leads to a
permanent loss of quality and audience, and cancellation, with these
corporate-owned comic-book characters, the DAMNED things go on, and on, and ON,
from one "jumping the shark" moment to another to another TO ANOTHER. How can
any modern fans even stand it???


Allow me to list my own personal choices...


1 - John Romita takes over, and half the cast undergoes sudden and drastic
personality changes.


2 - Stan yanks John off the book to do other things, causing a steady stream of
"fill-in" artists, ALL THE WHILE John is still supplying plots, layouts, and
covers.


3 - Jack quits, and Stan yanks John off to do the FF, replacing him with a guy
HE HIMSELF not long before said he hated-- GIL KANE. As always seems to happen
when kane is around, the book takes a DARK, manic tone, kicking off a new era of
pointless depressing crap by MURDERING Captain George Stacy, making it look like
Spidey did it, and having Gwen hate Pete's alter-ego. Also under Kane, MJ
changes from a nice, free-spirited girl, to a self-serving B****.


4 - With nothing better to do, John, Gerry, Roy & (once again) Gil BUMP OFF
Gwen, and follow it up the next month by bumping off Norman. To this day, Gerry
& John are each claiming it was "ALL THEIR IDEA".


5 - Gil swaps books with Ross Andu, putting one of the LEAST-APPROPRIATE artists
ever for Spidey in place on his book for a long, long time.


6 - Romita turns over control of the book to Gerry Conway (who fans only THINK
had been plotting the book himself for over a year by then), and the quality of
the writing plummets further still.


7 - The "Gwen Stacy Clone" is foisted on Conway, making him even less popular
with fans, not long before he departs for DC.


8 - Len Wein makes MJ even more of a B**** than Kane had, and spends 3 years on
the book essentially telling ONE long storyline. Andru & Esposito supply some of
the WORST "art" in the history of the series.


9 - Marv Wolfman breaks up Pete & MJ


After this, it boggles my mind that anybody ever cared at all. Pete goes thru a
steady succession of "relationships" with a parade of girls, not one of whom I
would ever be caught dead with. And this is still back in the late 70's!!!

I'm still enjoying Amazing under Dan Slott quite a bit! Though I deceided to skip the issues that featured Avengers Academy because they screamed "FILL-IN!", I've enjoyed the recent Mr.Negative/Anti-Venom/Wraith two-parter. And that's saying something because I new nothing about Mr. Negative and very little about Eddie Brock's new identity. That shows that Slott did his job and wrote the story in such a way as to let readers know what they needed to know to enjoy it.

I love that Slott's not afraid of Peter's long history. Having someone use the Wraith identity and making it appear that Jean DeWolff was back was something that a lot of writers would not have done. (He also showed many familiar, mostly forgotten faces in the excellent "dream sequence" story right after Marla Jameson's death.) I kinda almost wish that Wraith was Jean's ghost, but I like how the revelation showed how competent Pete's girlfriend Carlie is at her job.

I'd say that anyone who loves Spidey and has been estranged by numerous missteps with the character over the last coupla decades should check out Slott's run on Amazing. It has the feel of those great Spidey eras of the 60s, 70s and 80s without feeling totally rehashed. Great stuff!

Agree with everything you say. This is probably the best the series has been post-clone saga. Slott has totally my previous negative feelings towards him. He just seems to get Peter, his cast and what makes a good Spider-Man story while making it feel totally fresh and new.

I also loved the Wraith character which is a great mix of new and obscure. Slott shows he is a good writer in using this story to also make Carlie shine, as Lardy says and also address the Mr. Negative subplot (which has been ongoing but stands on it's own here).

Also, I love Eddie Brock's status quo for the first time ever, really. Just like I live Venom for the first time ever, I also like Eddie. The way it's broken out is really interesting.

I'm actually pretty excited for Spider Island! When at first I heard the Jackal was returning (a villain who holds a special place in my heart) I was hesitant. But now that I'm seeing him, I'm just really excited to have him back. He's always been one of my favorites even before the 90's Clone Saga.

I'm loving how tech-heavy and sci-fi Slott has made the series again. Spidey should always contain those elements and it just feels fresh and exciting while being the perfect evolution of the series.

Just read Amazing #666, the prelude to "Spider Island". This book is massively new reader friendly and a perfect jumping-on point for anyone interested in the storyline or in Spidey's "Big Time" direction. Everything you need to know going into SI is here, along with a great exploration of Pete's current status quo. As a true prelude, it doesn't actually begin the storyline full force, but it's highly entertaining and puts most of the pieces on the chess board.

"Spider Island" looks like it might be the rare Big Two event to actually satisfy if this is any indication. Slott's run has been of high quality to this point, and the art in this issue by Stefano Caselli is a terrific lovechild of Marcos Martin's cleaner, classic style and Humberto Ramos's cartoony, hyper-expressive work--having a middle ground between both.

Ramos will be doing the issues of the actual storyline. I've been put off by his style in the past, but Ramos really seems to have found the perfect character for his style.

Best of all, even with all the tie-ins, all anyone really has to buy to get the story are the issues of Amazing themselves. Who knows, though...maybe I will pick up some of the others!

So far, I've been enjoying the hell out of Spider-Island, both the Spidey issues and the Venom issues. Neither is needed for the other btw. I may pick up the Cloak & Dagger series.

I'm actually enjoying the usage of the Jackal so far as well, after some trepidation. The mystery of who the mysterious woman is has me interested, since Joyce Delaney / Gwen clone has been eliminated.

This also looks like a big focus on Carlie and Peter's relationship which is welcome.

Spider-Island continues to rage through Amazing Spider-Man (with a host of tie-in minis that I’m not picking up) and thus far I’ve been enjoying the heck out of it! Rather than a serious, dark, angsty storyline, thus far the story has been one huge Summer Blockbuster—full of fun, action-adventure and excitement. It may end up being what Maximum Carnage could have been!

The premise is just fun to begin with, and Slott plays that up to the extreme. This includes more guest stars than you can shake a stick at, Peter web-slinging sans costume through NYC, Carlie being awesome with her spider-powers, Jonah deputizing all the ‘good’ New Yorkers with Spider-powers and all kinds of other tidbits. While the main plotline is never out of focus, all of these little side moments really enhance each issue’s enjoyment. I also love that Slott has included so much of Peter’s supporting cast here as well.

The larger plotline, complete with the Jackal and his mysterious partner / benefactor, also continues to intrigue. The Jackal is being used in a way he never has been before, and I’m enjoying that approach.

Slott, who is a master of Spidey continuity, also cleverly leaves some Easter Eggs for longtime fans. In the recent Jackal one-shot (the only one I grabbed), Joyce Delaney is killed—the original Gwen Clone. Considering she’s been a dangling plot thread for 40 years, this didn’t bother me too much; I’m more impressed that anyone remembered her besides the 100 or so mega Spidey fans online.

I tend to not enjoy Humberto Ramos’ artwork but with the tone of this story so far it seems to be working. He can draw crazy, non-stop action and we’ve gotten plenty of that. He also looks like he’s had a blast drawing all the lame one-off Spidey costumes over the years.

So Resident Spider-Man Expert Cobaltus: Who do YOU think the mysterious "partner/benefactor" is? If anyone should have a good guess, it should be you!

Well, smart money would have been on the aforementioned Joyce Delaney, the long-surviving Gwen Clone. It's been a shock some writer didn't bring her back as a villain over the years, unable to resist the image of Spidey battling Gwen Stacy. But Slott took her off the table with her recent death (surely by design). There's the chance it was a bait and switch but I doubt it.

That leaves two prime candidates in my mind:

(1) Marla Jameson - recently deceased but perhaps not quite. She has the motive in that NYC got more love from her husband than she did (both when JJJ ran the Bugle and now as Mayor); thus, she wants NYC to suffer plus using all those Spider-Men will infuriate Jonah. She also has the means--she is a brilliant scientist after all. She was originally introduced creating Spider-Slayers so this isn't too far out of her characterization.

(2) Martha Conners - the wife of the Lizard, and with her son Billy recently dead, her losing it isn't out bounds. Utilizing a scientist like the Jackal would make sense. This one is a little tougher because she doesn't have the know-how or financial means but these plot points can be explained. More glaring is the lack of the Lizard in the story which would seemingly have to happen for dramatic effect.

One possibility I really hope isn't even in contention is Liz Allen. I think Slott is nice and smart enough to leave her alone.

Am I missing anyone you think? I've been thinking along the lines of 'someone we already know' rather than surprise super-villainess, since there aren't many that have meaning for Spider-Man.

I don't really have any guesses, Cobester. I've assumed the answer is somewhere in the post Brand New Day era, but Slott has a fondeness for more old school characters--so it's possible!

If it's Marla, it would diminish the awesome issue that followed her death which many think is an instant classic. But it would make a lot of sense how this is all playing out, I must admit.

Martha Conners, eh? That would support my inkling that the answer is within the BND era. Kind of an odd "revenge" for her to take.

My only guesses would be:

1) The original Madame Web, Cassandra Webb. A Wikipedia search shows that she's dead, but I think she was an awesome under-utilized character. This Spider Island scenario reminds me a lot of the kinds of things she would do in the '90s Spider-man animated series, where she frequently tested Peter in enigmatic ways. The way they hid the mystery lady's eyes and how you couldn't tell where she was in relation to the Jackal and his clones (in the Prelude, which is as far as I've gotten, so far), made me wonder if she was sitting down in some version of her old life support chair.

2) Mattie Franklin. I see she died around the same time as Madame Web. She was a Spider-Woman. You could see where that got her and why she'd want revenge.

3) Julia Carpenter, the new Madame Web. She's already appeared in the story and seems pretty flaky. Who knows, she may be playing both ends for some unknown purpose?

4) Jackpot. Missed her storyline in the BND era, but I read of her storyline shows that she might blame Spidey for the death of her husband and of the girl who also used the Jackpot identity.


I hope its not Liz, either. We've had enough Spidey supporting characters turned into heroes or villains. On the other hand...you could almost justify it after all she's been through. Hope not, though.


Anyhow, that's all I've got! I WILL say that Spidey could certainly use a good female villain, so I hope she's a major player going forward. (Must say, though, that my Cassandra Webb theory is my favorite! )

...of course, it could STILL be a Gwen Stacy clone. Gwen's Wikipedia entry (if accurate) mentions three clones, giving special attention to one called "Abby-L" who is not said to have died. It says Abby-L is the first Gwen clone (as Kaine was the actual first Spidey clone), which would fit in with the Kaine scenes in the Prelude.

However, you mention "Joyce Delaney" as having been killed in that Spider-Island spin-off when the article says "Abby-L" killed her. So this could be one of those famed Wikipedia inaccuracies. Can't say as I haven't read the stories in question it references.

I thought about Madame Web too, and thats a good guess! I never realizes she played a big role in the cartoon.

Like you, I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride. I also hope whoever she is, she becomes a major villain going forward. Like you said, Peter really needs a strong female nemesis.

"Why did Steve Ditko leave Marvel?"


Thought I'd pass this on from CAPTAIN COMICS. It started out as a discussion about WHO The Green Goblin was originally intended to be, but then someone suggested that Stan over-ruling Steve was the reason Steve quit Marvel. I DON'T THINK SO...


"It should be pointed out that for at least the last year before Ditko left, he and Stan weren't on speaking terms. At all. Now, some people say this was Steve being difficult, BUT IT WASN'T. It was STAN. Why? "Simple". Steve had INSISTED on CREDIT AND PAYMENT for plotting the stories. AND HE GOT IT. Now, since Stan was regularly in the habit by then of getting CREDIT AND PAY for plots other people were doing, this meant, that money was coming out of Stan's pocket. So he took it as a personal affront that Steve was getting paid for work Steve was actually doing, INSTEAD OF STAN. So Stan refused to talk to Steve from that point on. Steve described once going into the office, and having to turn his pages over to Sol Brodsky (production manager), without seeing Stan, because Stan refused to talk to Steve.


Meanwhile, Martin Goodman had made a verbal promise that if the new characters Kirby & Ditko were coming up with took off, they would share in licensing royalties. Then, HE BALKED on his promise. Goodman LIED, and as a matter of principle, Steve began planning to leave Marvel right then and there. His leaving, apparently, had very little to do with who the hell The Green Goblin would turn out to be, or not. Saying that was the reason was Stan's way of making Steve seem small and petty, instead of highly principled.


Gee, what a nice place to work..."

The documentary "Searching for Steve Ditko" by Jonathan Ross covers this topic brillaintly. The best part is when Ross gets Stan to drop his "good 'ol Stan" routine for the briefest of moments to reveal the ego-maniac underneath.

Well, apparently, it's none of the above!

When I read a review of last week's issue and it said she was revealed and is obscure, I couldn't resist and looked at the last page. Never heard of her--and she doesn't even have a proper Wikipedia entry! Seems like an interesting lady, though, and one who maybe didn't deserve to fall into obscurity?

Des, once you find out who it is, let me know your thoughts. I'm sure you read her original appearances with your inclusive Spidey-buying background. (Meantime, until I know you've read the issues or the spoilers, I won't even mention what run she first appeared in!)

Now I'm really curious! I've thus far avoided spoilers and will continue to do so! If she appeared in a Spidey story before I'm sure to know her.

I'm sure you will! I love Slott's humorous touches, and once again, Humberto ramos seems perfectly suited for a Spidey book of this scope.

Looking forward to the rest of the storyline and seeing how it plays out!

Spider-Island continues to move along with #669 and just gets more and more fun. We get spider-enhanced versions of Chance, Scorcher and White Rabbit (all of whom haven’t been seen in years), and then the crème de la crème of awesome spider-enhanced Spidey Villains is the 6-armed Shocker; that last bit started out as very comical and then ended up being pretty horrific.

Slott makes a smart plot decision in taking the ‘awesome’ tone of thousands (millions?) of people having spider-powers and now transitioning it to the horrific plot of these infected people becoming horrific spider-like monsters. Carlie’s apparent transformation was absolutely terrifying and that is really going to amp things up.

Meanwhile, he just nails so many other great story elements. First, the Carlie / Peter interaction is so incredibly likable and well done. She’s obviously figuring out Pete is Spider-Man and you can see Pete will have to make a decision on whether he should tell her. Slott has done a wonderful job making Carlie an important and empathic girlfriend for Pete.

He also uses the Horizon Labs crew to great effect, and having them interact with both Mr. Fantastic, as well as Mayor Jameson works really well. Jameson himself is just completely awesome here. Slott probably has the best handle on him since probably…Stan Lee? He gets all the good and bad parts of JJJ. Not only does he have him doing things, advancing the story, but he’s having him react perfectly to things such as “Spider-Island” and “Spider-Earth”, as well as being infected. Plus, love seeing my girl Gloria doing stuff too.

This issue had the big reveal about who the mysterious woman is:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">I’ll admit, I didn’t see this coming at all! The Spider-Queen, if its whom I’m thinking it is, is one of the major characters that tie into JMS’s “The Other” mythology for Spider-Man. I think she appeared once by JMS and then had a subsequent appearance in PAD’s FNSM series. To be perfectly honest, I haven’t ever thought much of her as a character—but that might change now.

The fact that Slott is fully embracing the JMS ‘The Other’ storylines is a bold move and shows the man has balls. It’s really about time that was smoothed into spider-history and doing that by combining that continuity with the clone stuff is just crazy-ambitious!

It also makes me wonder if the “Spider King” is Ezekiel? I know some people are guessing Ben Reilly, but that seems almost too easy.

For quite awhile, I was willing to never see the Other-related stuff again, Spider-Queen included. But I’m curious what Slott will do.

I wonder if he’ll tie in how the original Tarantula turned into a monster very similar to what Kaine and the Spider-King are?</span></span>

Spidey is one of the best superhero comics on the market right now—consistently—and it feels so good to type that.

Actually, my research into the mystery woman shows she originated during <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Paul Jenkins' stint as a Spider-writer (parallel to JMS), with Spectacular Spider-man #15 being her first appearance. Her appearance precedes "The Other" storyline. Dunno if she appeared in that storyline or not. Never read all of it.</span></span>

Ah, you are correct. Actually, I think Humberto Ramos was her co-creator, so maybe he asked Slott to bring her back.

I recall her tying into JMS' 'the Other' mythology; I think she was like the 2nd of 3 great token-related enemies Peter had to fight (the first being Morlun and the second being the Other).

I recall the arc wasn't that good. It was a 6 parter that should have been 3 parts.

Those creatures made me think of what happened to the original Tarantula (Anton Miguel Rodriguez) as well, particularly as Jackal called one of them "Tarantula". Tarantula died after having been mutated into a giant spider. Interestingly, Rodriguez first appeared working with the Jackal...

If nothing else, Slott definitely is doing a lot of shout-outs to Spidey history in this arc and in his run as a whole! *LIKE*

Cobalt, you're getting mixed up with Ero, the woman made from the spiders that ate Peter's discarded skin, who debuted near the end of The Other (in the *non*-JMS issues, he never used her) and was used muchly in PAD's FNSM.