Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Spider-Man thread!

Keith Polard's output over the years surprised me, when you consider how he started out. Like George Perez, Pollard & Arvell Jones were assistants' of Rich Buckler. I believe I first saw both Jones & Pollard together on IRON MAN late in Mike Friedrich's run, when they replaced George Tuska, who took a long break after 2 different runs on the book. Fan reaction was universally negative. Pollard disappeared and Jones finished out a few issues by himself, but not before blowing deadlines so bad it required 2 separate "inventory" stories (by Mantlo, Tuska & Colletta) and a "deadline doom reprint" (by Goodwin, Tuska & Craig). I'd have to check, but it seems Jones drew 3 issues of IRON FIST around the same time, with at leats 3 different inkers, all of them bad, the last one the worst (Aubrey Bradford, at the time, got my vote for WORST inker in Marvel history... I ran into him at a convention 20 years later, he'd gotten a LOT better!)

And then there was Don McGregor's tragic run on POWER MAN. After one issue of a 3-parter drawn by Tuska, part 2 was done by Buckler, Jones AND Pollard. (Part 3 by Sal Buscema & "The Crusty Bunkers"-- can you say "editorial CHAOS"??)

McGregor's run of BLACK PANTHER also had a sad ending. After he lost Billy Graham to the theatre (he'd decided to focus on his acting career for awhile), Rich Buckler returned to the book. And promptly BLEW the deadlin on hbis 2nd issue. It was so late, after a deadline doom reprint (of a DAREDEVIL story guest-starring the Panther), they got Keith Pollard to RE-PENCIL the entire issue, AND, ink it! And then 4 weeks later, Jack Kirby's completely unrelated story hit the stands... what a slap in the face! (When I found out Buckler had actually pencilled the entire episode-- his pages remain unpublished-- I began to think someone should get him & McGregor back together to FINISH that storyline the way Don had originally intended it. Hey, if Craig Russell could draw the same DR. STRANGE story twice, why not publish an "alternate" version of the "KLAN" story?)


So when I think of how Pollard pulled himself up with those runs of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, FANTASTIC FOUR (2 different runs of FF, if I recall), fill-ins for George Perez on JLA, a SILVER SURFER graphic novel (which he inked himself, showing just how slicker his inks had become over the years), it's pretty amazing. What's he doing these days? that's a question that could apply to MOST artists I grew up with or followed for decades after.

Incidentally, one thing that really separated Perez & Pollard was how much DETAIL they'd put into their pencils. On the FF, Joe Sinnott supposedly once asked Perez, "Hey, leave something for ME to do!" Pollard, meanwhile, was so "loose", Sinnott wound up doing the BULK of the work. So, when Sinnott missed an issue... OH MAN, WAS IT BAD!


Meanwhile, Arvell Jones surprised me when he jumped over to DC. I saw him on an issue of SUPER-TEAM FAMILY (talk about an awkward name for a magazine), then a run of ALL-STAR SQUADRON severl years later. His art had improved so much since his Marvel days, it was hard to believe it was the same guy!

Just posted at the Spidey-Jazz group... enjoy!




Fun as this is, and I hate to burst anybody's bubble, but certain episode information listed online is INCORRECT.


The main one is this... the 1st season, there were 19 episodes.


The 2nd season, there were 20 episodes.


The 2nd season, the 1st episode was the LAST show produced by Grantray-Lawrence.


The 2nd WEEK, the Krantz Films episodes began with "THE ORIGIN OF SPIDERMAN"







I know this is NUTS, but I was there! My habit was to watch every episode of one show, then, when the reruns began, switch to the other network. I recall very clearly the last new show of the 1st year had the returning villains, "TO CATCH A SPIDER" (Dr. Noah Boddy, Electro, Green Goblin & Vulture) and "DOUBLE IDENTITY" (Charles Cameo). The next week was a rerun of the Doc Ock story, so (crazy as it sounds), I switched over and started watching ARCHIE. When I'd seen every ARCHIE episode that year, I switched back to Spidey reruns.


The networks were VERY regular about starting the new seasons all the same week back then. Not like the chaos you have nowadays. The 2nd season opened with "STING OF THE SCORPION" (a new story as the previous story had actually been a combined adaptation of BOTH Ditko Scorpion stories), and "TRICK OR TREACHERY" (the Human Flys). I've seen the airdate for this listed as sometimes back in January or so, but THAT'S WRONG. This did NOT debut until Sep'68. TRUST me on this!!


At the end of the show, they added the completely different "coming attraction" thing which, instead of featuring clips of next week, featured clips of many earlier episodes. I got bored with that REAL fast.


The 2nd week, I got a shock when "THE ORIGIN OF SPIDERMAN" aired. It was my very 1st exposure to Spidey's origin. But that wasn't it. The entire look and feel of the show had COMPLETELY changed. WTF was this??? I figured, hey, maybe it was a one-time thing. NO IT WASN'T. Not only had the entire style changed (despite reusing lots of old animation, music, and the same voices), with "KING PINNED" the "flashback" (so to speak) continued, as it followed immediately after the origin! WHAT WERE THEY DOING???


This has understandably caused a lot of confusion among younger fans over the decades who weren't there, who mistake the 2nd season for the 1st. In the long run, continuity was shot to pieces on that show, and it's probably better to just figure (like many of the TARZAN films whenever they recast the part) that the seasons are "different versions" of the same character, and that they don't take place in the same "universe".


About halfway thru the 2nd season, I was about ready to give up on the show. I kept hoping, somehow, maybe, that the "old" style would return. It wasn't until more than a decade later I read that Grantray-Lawrence had GONE BANKRUPT after only finishing ONE episode for the 2nd season. Krantz Films, the distributor, had already been paid for the 2nd season-- and the owner WASN'T gonna give the money back! So he hired Ralph Bakshi to set up a new studio in New York City (he'd already been working for Krantz in Canada doing the 2nd season of ROCKET ROBIN HOOD), and for next-to-no money, produced the 2nd season of SPIDER-MAN simultaneously with the 3rd season of ROCKET ROBIN HOOD.


Incidentally, something I was reminded of at a fan site... about halfway thru season 2, they ran the short "remake" cartoon, "RHINO". I had completely forgotten about this for decades, until I saw it listed with an air date around Dec'68. And then I remembered. I was completely flabbergasted as a kid. An entirte 10-minute cartoon made up of nothing but reused bits of 2 previous stories. ABSURD. but that wasn't the worst of it. NO! When it was over, they went to commercial break...






...and NEVER CAME BACK. They actually ran OVER 15 MINUTES of commercials!!! That was too much, even for me. Whatever was on the next week, I didn't even bother tuning in.




When the show went into syndication, "RHINO" was coupled with "THE MADNESS OF MYSTERIO". It took me ages, but I figured out "MADNESS" was probably started by Grantray-Lawrence over a year before it aired, and abandoned when they went belly-up. Why do I say this? Because of the dialogue. In one scene, Spidey calls Mysterio "BOWL-HEAD". But Gray Morrow had completely redesigned Mysterio. He wasn't wearing the bowl anymore!

As the BND era comes to a close, ASM is having a 5 part storyline by Mark Waid and Paul Azaceta entitled "Origin of Species". I've got to say--I'm really disliking this storyline quite a bit!

Previously, I thought the Grim Hunt was rather good (and think Dev and others who got the scoop online but didn't read it were misinformed) and thought OMIT wasn't great but wasn't anything offensive. Here, however, I'm really finding this storyline to be a huge waste of 5 entire issues.

The premise sounds like it could be okay in a Maximum Carnage summer blockbuster way, but it could easily go all wrong, which it has. The problem is basically every one of Spidey's enemies are after him which lessens the impact of each one--I hate when writers do that, and Waid seems to be guilty of it often.

The actual reasoning for it is a bit disgusting though, as it involves a newborn baby being hunted by Doc Ock and others. It's a bit much.

While the story-telling execution is pretty good (each single issue ends with a big "oh shit" moment), the story itself, in terms of plot and what actually happens, is kind of putting me off.

Compiling my annoyance is the art by Paul Azaceta, which I'm finding completely unappealing. So far I've loved almost every artist on ASM in this era but here, I think is the one time where I actually am hating it. He makes the villains seem lame; Spidey seems awkward; and worst of all, a lot of it just looks ugly and gross. I'm really not digging it at all.

So, all in all, it's a shame this era is ending on this note. I read parts 1-4 (of 5) today in one sitting and IMO, this may be the worst story so far.

>looks at dead horse in the corner<

nah...

Trust me, never read this story! You'll never pick up a Spider-Man story again!

THing is, to me...this just shows that it keeps getting worse.

Cobalt Kid wrote:
"every one of Spidey's enemies are after him which lessens the impact of each one--I hate when writers do that, and Waid seems to be guilty of it often"


This gimmick only worked ONCE!!!

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/fantasticfour/FF%20A03.jpg

I won't be reading it...and I''ll always have my Essentials.

"You'll never pick up a Spider-Man story again!"

I haven't read a new Spider-Man story since Steve Rude did his 3-issue mini-series. That was so GOOD... it made me realize that EVEN Roger Stern's runs sucked by comparison. Which made me realize just HOW BAD Spider-Man had been for so terribly long... (Of course, when it comes down to it, a LOT of comic-book characters have been living off their reputations for DECADES.)

Ugh! Another stunt. It ain't hookin' me.

Agreed. Lame.

So let me get this straight:

1. They're doing this highly-promoted "Big Time" relaunch.
2. Then they're doing a highly-promoted "point 1 jumping-on point" thing within a couple of months
3. Then they're doing a highly-promoted fake-kill stunt (what, again?) within a couple of months?

Sales must be tanking...

I haven't bought a Spidey comic in over ten years. I only WISH there was some way I could buy EVEN FEWER of them.

: D

It\'s an Ultimate Spider-Man thing , not a regular series thing.

Since I collect that too, I'm still affected, but it actually sounds like a better premise for USM.

So, let me get this straight...

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Phil Urich has beheaded the Hobgoblin (Roderick Kingsley)</span></span>

Why? what is the point of doing that to that character? I actually liked the series he was in and thought it was a nice twist on a dragged through the mud concept.

Oh well...they just keep draggin this comic deeper into the mire.

I'm not a prude by any stretch of the imagination, but would it kill Marvel to keep their premier super hero with a comic that is acceptable for all ages? Sorry, putting out another version for young children basically retelling stories from close to 60 years ago does not count.

Spidey is loved by all ages, but I do not feel comfortable handing a comic with graphic violence and straight talk anout Peter's sex life to my 10 year old.

Anywho...thank God for the Essential volumes.

So I caught up on some recent Spider-Man issues for the ‘Big Time’ kick-off of a new era, headed by Dan Slott. I’ll come right out and say, while I was initially impressed by Slott years ago, I’ve come to expect his work to be really some of the worst stuff going on at Marvel comics. Certainly he was what I thought the worst of the Web-Heads (group of Spidey writers during the last few years). That being said, he can sometimes have really great moments.

At the end of the day, so much of what Slott is doing is just fantastic. I was surprised by how really great his story-telling was, and the various things he was doing (which I’ll get to). But then there is just one thing that I hate SO MUCH—actually wanted to throw my comic against the wall—that at the end of the day, I don’t care how much good was in there. I’m pretty disappointed. And that bad thing is what Dev spoils above (I’ll get to that too).

For the artwork, the opening issues are by Humberto Ramos, who is an artist I’ve never really enjoyed. I first saw him on Impulse, where his artwork seemed to be a great fit but as issues went on even then, he was getting more and more out of control with his crazy dynamics. By the time he did his first run of Spider-Man stories, I was already not a fan at all. I really don’t think he’s a bad artist—it’s just his style isn’t my cup of tea. The manga-esque style is too over the top and takes things just a few hairs too far for me. But if someone told me they were a huge Ramos fan, I could understand why.

Getting back to Slott and the story. He does several things that I think are really great and an improvement in moving the book forward. Spoilers abound:
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- he gives Peter a new job at long last that references Peter’s intelligence, as well as his academic history. FINALLY. Peter Parker is not a permanent photographer for the Daily Bugle. Spidey creators and fans who think that should be marched across the front lawn and shot. That was only ever something to hold him over until he could capitalize on his intelligence. I’m glad to see that established. I don’t mind if he makes a little cash on the side doing some photography for the Bugle, but it shouldn’t be his main occupation.

- He gives Spider-Man several new supporting characters, which is something that should constantly be happening. There needs to be a constant balance of maintaining the old supporting cast while introducing new characters.

- There is a heavy focus in science-fiction to balance the crime-fiction; this is a necessary balance for Spider-Man.

- Marla Jameson is back—though it kind of goes along with Slott’s typical “peeling back all the changes to the status quo” mentality, I like Marla, so I appreciate her presence.

- The Bugle remains an important part, particularly Robbie and Norah. They reintroduce Phil Urich which at first I was happy about. One thing Slott casually does though is change “Front Line” to the “Daily Bugle”. I knew this would happen eventually, and I knew it would be Slott. I’ve been expecting it so long that I’m not really feeling one way or another about it, but critics of Slott’s bad habits can certainly use this.

- The action is exciting and each issue so far contains a strong dose of it. Very important for Spidey.

So, all in all, it seemed like a great start. And my all-time favorite villain, the original Hobgoblin was returning, and they were actually going to reference it being Kingsley, explaining where he’s been. I was thrilled. And then…

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Slott goes and kills Kingsley! WTF?!!! I’m hoping beyond hope this is some sort of bait & switch a la Foggy Nelson by Bru in Daredevil, but I don’t think Slott is talented enough to even pull that off. Why in the world would he kill off the best Spider-Man villain since the Silver Age? Hobgoblin was finally restored to greatness by Stern in the mid 90’s, and then had a nice cooling off period for the last 15 years. He was primed and ready to go!

We already had a fake-Hobgoblin in Macendale and all that came of it was the Hobgoblin eventually becoming a bit of a joke villain to be bashed around every so often until they made him part demon just to be interesting. Having yet another fake Hobgoblin (now the third—something I hate that DC and Marvel do, creating multiple versions of the same villain) will only result in the same thing.

This is either a stupid, horrible decision, or it’s a bait & switch, which is still a huge pain in the ass for the readers. </span></span>

So, all in all, things were going really well but then something annoying on a big level ruined it. What’s funny is the dissolution of Pete & MJ’s marriage didn’t really bother me as much as others, and the way he got his secret identity back actually was a good thing IMO. But the recent resurrection of Kraven and now what’s happened to the Hobgoblin bother me in a HUGE way.

Ooh boy, here we go again. Another Spider-Man run where every time there is good, there is a lot of bad to go with it.

"finally returned to greatness by Stern in the mid 90's"


I'd QUIT buying all Marvels entirely by then. THAT mini-series was what got me to give Marvel another look. Eventually, I regretted doing so, but, that mini remains a good thing.


And yet, I've seen comments online from fans who think that mini was uncalled-for and terribly misguided. Sheesh.

Slott was best on the books he really wanted to write, like SHE-HULK, THE THING and GREAT LAKES AVENGERS. Those are all solid gold.

I was surprised when my large pile of Spider-Man comics only had one recent issue of Spidey, and remembered the series is now bi-weekly instead of thrice-monthly. As of yet that has no effect on my enjoyment of the series but we’ll see how that goes (whether good or bad).

Again, I’m conflicted on the entire thing: on the one hand, this is definitely the best writing Slott has done sine She-Hulk, and perhaps ever, for Marvel. He’s firing on all cylinders, and nailing all the facets of what makes Spider-Man good: large supporting cast, lots of subplots, action & adventure every issue, some humor but not over the top, personal drama, etc. And yet, I can’t get over the fact that the real Hobgoblin has been killed and replaced by Phil Urich of all people. It’s too much for me to give even the best story a pass.

Yet, I am still hopeful that perhaps I’m jumping the gun. Knowing Slott likes to play the bait & switch game, which he did over and over in She-Hulk and elsewhere, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Kingsley after all. Or something along those lines. As juvenile as it sounds, that would actually assuage all my anger.

I’m glad to see Smythe reappear here, a character with a long Spidey history. I’m not sure I like the idea of Smythe being a strait-up super-villain (if that is the case), but I realize they were already heading this way in the 90’s and basically ever since the son was introduced after Spencer died in the 80’s. His appearance also serves to create an in-story reason for the Scorpion to be the Scorpion again instead of Venom, and I appreciate Slott’s knowledge of Spidey’s history to make it plausible.

The new spider-costume was entirely unnecessary and I found it boring.

I’ve also decided now that Peter is ‘with’ Carlie Cooper that I’m anxious to see a new love interest in his life. I’m fickle like that. Carlie ain’t no MJ and ain’t no Gwen; she’s more of a transition girlfriend in my eyes, like Deb Whitman.

Debra Whitman? AAAAAUGH!!!!!

I heard PAD brought Deb back in his Friendly Neighborhood run. How'd that run treat her, Des?

Terrible

It was one of several reasons I was very annoyed with PAD on that run.

Well....?

Way back, it was like a toss-up for me who was more annoying-- Deborah or Marcy. Of course, Marcy was like "Libby" on SABRINA, so I guess it was really no contest. He shouldn't have been involved in any way with either of them, though.

My laptop has a virus and pc is in the babys room so I'm posting from my phone--will give you a real reply from work.

That's why I've been largely absent at nights this month!

I remember posting about here in this thread before though (I think?)...will have to check!