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Just in case...

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">The part where he rips off part of the one characters face. Not exactly something that any Spider Man I know of would do. Sorry, it's just not the Peter Parker that I used to read about. </span></span>

I think "eugh" is a reasonable response to that. I agree that inflicting a Mark of Kaine-type injury is ridiculously out-of-character for any Spider-Man I'd care to read.

As for that scene--and this is actually a different kind of criticism--it's pretty hard to figure out what the hell exactly happened. It almost seemed like Peter inflicted the mark of Kaine, which he clearly doesn't have the ability to do. (It fits into the larger theme of what Kelly was going for in terms of the Kaine/Peter conflict with the Kravinoffs and similarities & differences, etc.).

He doesn't really 'rip her face off', but honestly, I don't know what he does. Afterwards you can see her face and it's clearly all there, but with a huge hand-shaped bruise over it (whether its a bruise or flesh, who knows). What Joe Kelly was going for was similar to what PAD did in the Death of Jean DeWolfe story where Peter beats Sin-Eater senseless. Peter had just watched Kaine impaled, Mattie Franklin sacrificed on an altar and other atrocities--he was on the verge of losing it but ultimately pulls back before he kills someone. Was it effective? That's for each person to decide. I certainly don't think it was anywhere near as good as the Sin-Eater scene. I didn't find it at all that out there given the story being told and I didn't think it was completely out of character either. I thought it was very much in character and certainly not on par, travesty wise, as actually bringing Kraven back from the dead. (That's my personal opinion though; you both say it's not a Spider-Man you care to read and I understand that).

The whole sequence could have been better if it was more clear in exactly what happened. That is probably Joe Kelly's biggest flaw as a story-teller sometimes, like Giffen's.

Looks pretty nasty here...definate sound of flesh being torn off/ But just my opinion

Yeah, but you need to see the rest of the issue to see how she's fine in two pages with a weird bruise. It's pretty confusing stuff. The only way Peter could tear off someone's flesh like that would rip her whole face off, it wouldn't have the finger marks.

I'm not saying it isn't him doing that, I was just confused by the whole sequence.

And actually, the story was good enough where I didn't dwell on it. Grim Hunt was actually quite good, unlike the current story, OMIT.

Actually, there's no particular reason why he couldn't - the "Mark of Kaine" was always just Kaine's clinging power burning the degeneration scars on his hand into someone's face. [In the same way, his precog visions were his spider-sense dialled up to 11]

Based on the page posted though, I agree with Dev - that is DEFINITELY presented as face-tearing, not burning.

Either I had forgotten (likely) or never knew in the first place (possible) that this was how Kaine's powers worked, but either way, that's pretty cool! It makes perfect sense too. It also explains how Kaine could give the Mark of Kaine to things like wood.

Read the second issue and it's just as good as the first! This is really great stuff--one of the best series that's come out all summer! The art is simply to die for, and the writing is terrific!

This is probably the best "thief" story I've read in the last decade. As good as Bru & Cooke on Catwoman for sure with more crammed into each issue.

THE HOBGOBLIN


Remember what i wrote the other day about Thor and Captain America? Well, here's another one... only I didn't write this. Every so often, somebody at the GCD actually cares about what they're doing (but it's never the editors)...


ASM #289 / Jun'87

Story continues from Spider-Man vs. Wolverine (Marvel, 1987 series) #1; O.K. so this issue reveals that that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds--sort of; After four years of hints, clues and red herrings, somebody had to be under the yellow Goblin mask; Original Hobgoblin creator Roger Stern left the comic without telling anyone his ideas on the true identity of the villain; Tom DeFalco who wrote many of the issues leading up to this revelation had an alleged falling out with editor Jim Owsley and quit the book without providing the identity of who he intended to be Hobgoblin; According to Peter David, he was told to write this unmasking story and Owsley intended for the secret identity of the Hobgoblin to be the Foreigner; This made no sense to David and they tried to hash out who actually COULD be the villain; Ned Leeds became the only viable suspect (and was a fan favorite for the role) but Owsley had already written the Spider-Man Vs. Wolverine one-shot in which Leeds was killed; It was up to Peter David to paint Ned as the culprit posthumously; Fast forward ten years to 1997 which saw original Hobgoblin scribe Roger Stern returning to the character in the Hobgoblin Lives limited series; In this story, he does a little creative rewriting of history (we fan boys call it retroactive continuity) and he reveals that Ned Leeds was simply a brainwashed dupe of the REAL Hobgoblin, narcissistic fashion designer Roderick Kingsley; Ironically, Kingsley is the only person according to the original stories who could NOT have been the Hobgoblin as he was seen on two occasions to be working with the villain and talking to him without his mask; Stern introduced a secret twin brother, Daniel, in Hobgoblin Lives who impersonated Roderick at key moments and made the Kingsly-as-Hobgoblin theory at least mildly plausible; This is Marvel's official version of the Hobgoblin controversy and the convoluted appearance list issue by issue can be seen under the Hobgoblin character profile on Marvel's official site here: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/hobgoblinkingsley.htm; Peter David discusses the story for this issue and the Leeds/Hobgoblin decision here: http://www.peterdavid.net/archives/002234.html.

Another major STEVE DITKO cover upgrade!!!

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/spider-man/ASM%20002.jpg





Among other things, I wound up copying the entire cityscape to a separate layer, so I could completely remove ALL color from it-- now it's "pure" gray!

This must have been a pretty simple coloring job for Stan Goldberg. The only complex part-- which has never QUITE been duplicated in reprints-- is the coloring on The Vulture's costume. HOW did he do that? No airbrush, real or in Photoshop. He still boggles my mind, even with something simple like this.

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/

If you go to the site, you'll also see I finally modified the background on the Ditko cover pages. I still maintained the ASM logo, but as I did with the Romita and Kane runs, I changed the color-- in this case, to more closely match the color on the thumbnails pages. I think it's a big improvement, because that beige was just driving me crazy.

I've also begun to add "compare" pages-- and I've maintained the cover page design for the backgrounds of those!


So far, I've managed to feature (almost) EVERY reprint. I decided to include variations of the original cover as "medium" images-- with multiple side-by-side displays (only ONE "compare" page PER book!!), but any books where the cover is completely different, only included as thumbnails. (Nick Simon suggested this over a year ago, and I figured out how it would really work well.)


And then just tonight, checking the GCD, I was reminded that there's 2 entire runs of reprints I didn't even include on the first 2 Spidey comics, but I have 'em set up for ASM #2. these are the SPIDER-MAN CLASSICS (already set up at the site-- and I forgot about 'em!) and, SPIDER-MAN COLLECTIBLE SERIES. My old friend from work, Bill Batcheller, had told me about these-- they were free giveaways inlcuded with certain newspapers-- but I never saw them until tonight. I downloaded all 24 covers from the GCD, but have to do slight clean-ups before I can post them. (And I have to set up another thumbnails page for them... sheesh.)

Each COLLECTIBLE issue reprints half of an issue of ASM. Every other cover is a reprint of an original, the other ones are NEW. This includes a new cover for "The Tinkerer"!



I'd been thinking of doing some more Ditko covers for weeks now. At the moment, too many of them are small, dark & fuzzy! This particular one I was inspired to do now because I'd already set up a so-far UNIQUE "compare" page, where I compared 2 covers featuring different villains with the SAME name-- in this case, "Vulture". The OTHER one was by Dick Ayers. Only when I set up the compare page did I do a double-take-- as there was just TOO MUCH similar between the 2 covers. I wondered-- can this be a coincidence??


Upgrading the SUSPENSE section was tedium. THIS bit was FUN, though!

The upgrade looks incredible! That's a classic example of how skilled Ditko was as a cover artist. As I've said numerous times, he remains the greatest of all Spider-Man artists in my mind.

I had no idea about the other two reprint runs. Interesting they were giveaways with newspapers. I'm fascinated to see what the covers look like! Whenever I see a Marvel Tales cover that is different from ASM, it's a cool feeling--like an issue of Spider-Man I never knew about.

Blast-- I'm such a perfectionist-- late last night I got back to work on that ASM #2 restoration. I really screwed up the LOGO area early-on, because I was in a hurry. It's slowly getting better now. (At the moment, the entire cover looks SHARP, except for the top area, which is slighlty out-of-focus.)


SPIDER-MAN CLASSICS came out in the early 90's, during a period when they stopped doing MASTERWORKS, and before they started doing ESSENTIALS. Each issue reprinted a Ditko comic, but with a new cover.

SPIDER-MAN COLLECTIBLE SERIES were giveaways included with Sunday newspapers. Each issue reprinted HALF of a Ditko comic. The first 5 Spidey stories were half-length, after that, I guess they were reprinted as "2-parters".

I've got the one for ASM #1-2 up now, gotta go back and do the ones for AF #15.


My own feeling about reprint collections is, if there are "alternate" covers, they should be included as bonuses. That would include the early-70's covers (many, MANY of them by Gil Kane), the ones mentiuoned above, and any foreign covers or unused / rejected ones. (I saw a foreign reprint of HULK ANNUAL #1 that had a Marie Severin cover on it. The US version had a Steranko cover! The US reprint had Gil Kane. Masterworks should have included ALL 3.)

Someone at another board wondered how many of the 60's cartoons were based on comics...


Only a few stories in the 1st year were adaptations-- "Where Crawls The Lizard" from ASM #6, "Electro, The Human Lightning Bolt" from ASM #9, "The Menace Of Mysterio" from ASM #13 (my favorite of the entire series, and I feel, better than the comic), "Captured By J. Jonah Jameson" from ASM #25, "Never Step On A Scorpion", from both ASM #20 and #29, and "The Terrible Triumph Of Doctor Octopus" from ASM #53. (After that issue's cliffhanger, the cartoon went in a completely different direction.)

The 2nd season, by a completely different studio, did "The Origin Of Spiderman" (his name tended to appear without the hyphen in episode titles) from-- NOT AF #15, but instead, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #1 (1968), and "King Pinned" from ASM #51.

The 3rd season-- whose shorter episodes MAY have started out as unfinished leftovers from the earlier studio (just my own speculation), included "The Big Brainwasher" from ASM #59, 69 and 52 (I'm not making this up!) and "The Madness Of Mysterio" from ASM #66-67.


However, after decades of watching the shows over and over, and re-reading the Ditko run, I came to the conclusion that some of the 2nd season were VERY LOOSELY inspired by some of the comics, but with so many changes it took me this long to even recognize the source material. This includes "Swing City" from ASM #3 (The Master Technician's motives in taking over the power plant are identical to those of Doc Ock's) mixed with TALES OF SUSPENSE #90 (A Cap-Red Skull story involving lifting Manhattan into the air), and "Pardo Presents" from ASM #16 (the plot involves hypnotizing an audience and robbing them; both villains' costumes have similar color schemes) and ASM #30 ("The Claws Of The Cat" involves a cat-burglar and a rooftop battle around a water-tower).

I also have a suspicion that "Neptune's Nose Cone"-- Spidey at the South Pole where he finds a primitive jungle (but no Ka-Zar), may have inspired Roy & Gil's ASM #103-104.


Oh yeah-- and while I spent decades thinking "Menace From The Bottom Of The World" was a demented remake of FF #31 (and the 1967 cartoon based on it), it turns out to actually have been an adaptation of "One Of Our Skyscrapers Is Missing" from ADVENTURES OF THE FLY #2! (Makes me think Kirby was paying tribute to the earlier Joe Simon-Al Williamson comic story.)

Some thoughts I just posted at another board...


I tend to think that in any hero's life, ONE great tragedy is enough, to serve as a springboard to turn a "normal guy" into something more. Uncle Ben was that tragedy. The last thing Peter wanted was a repeat of that. Hence his total focus on May in ASM #31 (screw the self-serving idiots who couldn't see he had something on his mind) and his "rampage" in ASM #32. It wasn't beating Ock that counted (in fact, Ock escaped). It was saving May. He did! And I LOVED the scene, after, when Pete STANDS UP to Jameson and you can see he no longer intends to put up with his S*** anymore. Even Jameson realizes something changed.

And THAT is a very big problem, if you continue reading past where Ditko left. I initially came to SPIDER-MAN via the 1967 Grantray-Lawrence cartoons. Those 20 episodes show a much more relaxed, fun-loving hero than Ditko portrayed-- but now that you mention it, he may very well be the kind Ditko might have done had Pete continued to evolve.

Instead, on the one hand you have a "softening" and "nicening up" of a number of the supporting cast (some of whom were borderline scum before this-- I simply cannot believe Flash ever "grew up" when I read Ditko's stories), and on the other, a Peter who continually, repeatedly, has self-doubts, doubts about other people, puts up with harrassment and abuse from others (especially Jameson), and just seems incapable of ever being happy.

I'm dumbfounded that so many readers over the years seem to accept this as normal, and somehow ENJOY it, even INSIST on it. it got worse when Gil Kane got on the book (twice), and it somehow continued to get worse with Ross Andru, etc. etc. etc. Spider-Man is the only series I can recall where I got FED UP with it and quit buying it... THREE times over the years. After the third time, that was it. I have never picked up a current issue in ages now.


I've read very few QUESTION stories by Ditko, but it struck me that Vic Sage looked a LOT like I imagine Peter would when he "grew up". Meanwhile, and this somehow completely slipped my notice, someone else pointed out that Ted Kord ALSO resembled a grown-up Peter to an extent. The thought being, Sage was like Peter if he'd stayed in journalism, Kord if he'd followed a career in science.

Looking back, I'd have liked to have seen Ditko continue on Spidey... IF he could have avoided all that "objectivism" CRAP.


Imagine if Ditko had written & pencilled Spidey... and John Romita had INKED it! When he left DC, Romita told Stan all he really wanted to do was ink. But Stan wouldn't have it. I sometimes wonder what kind of editor Stan might have been if comics were run like a REAL business... and creators OWNED the characters, instead of the publisher.

I've read most of the interviewws with Joey Q about OMIT. Nice guy...

Essentially throws JMS under the bus for the way OMD happened...saying that he and others had to essentially rewrite issue 4 of OMD to salvage the BND idea. How about the fact that you are the EIC and should have known what was happening...instead of waiting unti three issues in to say that things went completely wrong.

Then he claims that he did OMIT as his fulfillment of a promise to the fans to explain what happened. And lo and behold, in the process, admits that he so cleverly wiped OMD from continuity. He had to come in and save Peter from what JMS did...yet he still went along with it in the beginning.

I'm sure that it had nothing to do with the fact that they had really screwed up with how they undid the marraige. Mephisto getting Peter to strike a deal??? That was the best you could come up with at the time?

I won't even get into whhat I have heard is the "now" reason for them not getting married...some random thug beaning him with a cinder block...from any distance? Spidey sense? Reflexes? Been thrown through walls by super powered villians before...yet one cinderr block makes all the difference? Sorry, said I wasn't going to go there.

Face facts true believers...Joey annd JMS screwed the pooch with Spidey. Not taking into account the other debacles that JMS put out during his run...Gwen and Norman...WTF?!?!?!?!

This was his best attempt at fixingthings...a cinder block to the head of a hero that has faced sooooo much worse than that over the years.

And people wonder why I say I love Spider-Man, but refuse to read his book. It may be some of the best stories to come along in years...but it's all based on really sad, pathetic storytelling.

Thank the Lord for the Essentials.

Oh yeah...one more thing.

MJ is the one to outsart and outwit Mephisto into never being involved with the situation to begin with...?

I like MJ as much as any comic character...but outsmarting the Devil? She was never that smart from what I've read. Not slamming her or calling her dumb...just saying that I do not see her as the type to figure out a way to outsmart the devil in a couple panels of time.

Fascinating comments Prof! Especially the part on Ted Kord and Vic Sage and how they could easily have been a grown-up Peter Parker, especially post ASM #33. I actually can't wait to tell my Dad your thoughts, he'll really be interested.

Dev, I just finished OMIT today. A lot of the criticisms you've mentioned and you'll see online are pretty fair. The story read more like a bullet-point guideline on what the continuity now looks like. It easily could have been Joe Q listing this in a powerpoint to the fans.

Am I glad the Mephisto nonsense is erased from continuity. Sure! It should never have been there in the first place though. Mucking with the continuity is never good and re-mucking to fix it has never really worked (re: DC post-crisis). I hope this is the final chapter of this bad dream.

Regarding JMS & Joe Q on the Gwen/Norman relationship, I've read several accounts that this was all Joe Q and not JMS really much at all. Therefore, I reserve my ire for Joe Q and am letting JMS off the hook. *That* retcon is something I am much more mad about that anything else, including the marriage resolution.

The actual OMIT story itself, in which a regular guy is the reason Spidey doesn't marry Mary Jane is done to point out how the everyday normal aspects of being Spider-Man could interfere with Spidey's personal life. So it's definitely on purpose that is isn't a super-villain or something more epic or grandiose than a regular guy. Whether it succeeds as a story is up to the reader--I'm quite sure you would hate it (the execution in story, not the idea, which you quite clearly already hate ). Personally, I thought it wasn't that offensive, but it's not exactly the greatest thing I've ever read.

Was OMIT as awful as Brand New Day? No. Would I recommend anyone spend their hard-earned money on it? No.

Great art though (except the Joe Q parts, whose art actually isn't a style I ever liked, before he became the controversial editor in chief he is now).

I cannot hate it per se...as I will never read through the entire thing. Fair or not. I am going off of a lot of different things. What I saw flipping through the books, pages I have seen onlines and more reviews than I can shake a stick at...and especially the interview with Joe himself.

I think it's really low of him to throw JMS under the bus like that...then say (and I'm paraphrasing) "oh, but it really falls to me..."

Sorry if I seem a bit more vicious about this whole thing than I probably am, I just really feel disheartened about what they did to a great character.

I hear ya! I may not feel as angry toward this as you, but it still is annoying (and you know certain other things can send me into a fury).

"One More Day" is a contender for worst Spider-Man story of all time. It's unforgivable.

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #2 (May'63)

I probably spent WAY more time on this restoration than was called for, but as far as I'm concerned, it's done. If you go to the site, not only can you see the upgraded image, you can also check out the "Amazing" compare page. Yes-- EVERY reprint of this comic than I know of (at least in the US) is on display, all on one page!




By the way, I love the subtle color shading on The Vulture's costume. I look at something like that, and I wonder... HOW did Stan Goldberg DO that???

Considering what I know about the complex, confusing processes by which art got colored (engraved, separated, printed)... I'm sure glad with digital coloring & printing, I'll NEVER have to worry about this sort of thing.


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/

Great work.

MARV AND THE MAN-WOLF

(more ramblings I posted at another board...)


I seem to recall that there was a general feeling when Marv took over to try and "freshen up" the book, as there was a general feeling that Len had been marking time for his entire 3 years on the book. My impression always was that Len had ONE big story in mind when he got on, and spread it out over 3 whole years. And during that time, Mike Esposito really let the quality of his inks go TO HELL, so the art looked AWFUL. I was informed by someone who worked for Marvel at the time that one of the editors (or maybe Stan himself) called Mike out on it, told him to clean up his act. You can see during the "3rd Green Goblin" story how much BETTER Esposito's inks looked than they had for several years by then. This continued for at least a year, before he started ot let is slide again.

But after Marv took over, he started getting other artists on the book, including Pollard, Starlin, Byrne, I suppose to shake things up a bit. I see Bob McLeod inked a couple issues around that time, including the Starlin one. MAN, did that look good! (I've long considered McLeod one of the BEST inkers in the biz.) If my index is right, after Andru left, almost every penciller who worked for Marv was doing layouts, the inkers were doing "finishes". Maybe that helped inspire those guys to just knock themselves out and do better, more inspired work?

Marv also started to shake up the overall "story", by finally having Pete graduate college (longest 4 years in college history, hmm?), but be missing some classes and so need to do make-up in order to get his diploma. He also had that LONG-standing "suspected of murder" thing cleared up. I was never quite sure if that was supposed to be over Gwen Stacy or Captain Stacy, but enough was enough. He also showed what happened to Man-Wolf after his MARVEL TEAM-UP appearance (and if I recall rightly, the finale of his trip to the moon had NOT yet been published-- it finally showed up not long after, in MARVEL PREMIERE-- one of the GOOD things Jim Shooter did early in his run as EIC, cleaning up loose ends and getting out unpublished stories like that).

And then of course you had the death of Aunt May... (Really? NOT really? Hmm...)

from the MASTERWORKS solicitation page:

"Norman Osborn’s memory has returned. The Green Goblin is back. Gwen Stacy is missing. And it will all lead to a confrontation atop the George Washington Bridge whose aftermath will leave Peter Parker, the Amazing Spider-Man, forever changed."

I hate to point this out, but, what one single word balloon said INCORRECTLY notwithstanding (hey, the guy HAD THE FLU!!!)...


It was THE BROOKLYN BRIDGE, fer cryin' out loud!!!!!

I always found this debate so fascinating when I was a kid because people were so sure of themselves. Back then, I just went with the GW Bridge side because they said it in the story.

Now that I spend quite a lot of time in Manhattan for work, I agree that it is 100% the Brooklyn Bridge!

I've talked about it before in this thread, but I'll reiterate I totally agree with what you're saying Prof. Marv's run has a real sense of "moving things forward" on almost all levels and it's a welcome point when you read the entire run of Spider-Man. So many subplots continued from Gerry and even the Silver Age are finally tied up. Such as Spidey wanted for 2 murders: Captain Stacy and Norman Osborn (you actually learn in a one sentence off-comment by D.A. Tower that Spidey was cleared of Osborn's death months ago off-panel).

The artwork changes in a big way too after Ross Andru like you mention. Something else else also noteworthy is some point during Marv's run, the paper improved. It's quite noticable and makes for a shinier, nicer finish.

You mention a few artists that Marv brought on and one who is highly underrated from that era if Keith Pollard. He did some great work on Thor, Spider-Man and elsewhere and I wonder what he's up to today? He was never my favorite, in that he stood out among the rest, but when I reread the old issues, I always enjoy seeing his artwork. (And he had a great signature on his cover pages that stood out).