Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Spider-Man thread!

Caught up with the current Sandman story by Fred Van Lente and Javier Pulido. In short, its pretty damn excellent and reminds me again that Van Lente is *the* man for Spider-Man stories these days. Add in Javier Pulido's art and you've got a real winner, as Pulido is just a fantastic artist and I hope he sticks around on Spidey for awhile. His work really suits Spidey's stories, as its very clear yet action-oriented. Here he shines by showing Spidey web-slinging and in awkward positions that makes potentially forgetable panels pretty exciting.

Pulido also draws Spidey with a scarf, wool hat and boots--and its awesome. It definitely made me smile.

Van Lente also shows the post-DB world of Spidey and does a great job; Jonah and Robbie share a strong moment and then Betty Brant gets to move to the next stage of her career in a welcome way. She also helps Spider-Man which is an odd turn of events; I wouldn't mind if this continued going forward (though they would have to address the longtime problems Betty has had with Spider-Man). Also got to see Gloria in action working with Pete which was great.

The Sandman story itself is very strong, and is already one of the best Sandman stories I've read in years. Like many other great Marvel villains, there have been a lot of bad Sandman stories. Luckily, this is a solid, strong outing and Van Lente reminds me a bit of Roger Stern when Stern came in and gave the Vulture 2-3 great stories after decades of crappy ones.

If you're in desperate need of a great Spider-Man story and are concerned of when to get it, I'd say this is you best bet.

I thought you might get a kick out of this. A friend asked me about ASM #143... did MJ say "Not" or "Hot"? My answer (bleeped-out profanity included) follows... (what memories, what memories)


Oh, I remember. Jameson got involved in another of his A**H*** schemes, it fell apart, he panicked, and fled the country! S***head. Next thing, they get the word, JJJ has been kidnapped. Serves the SONOFAB**** right. I'd have left him to rot, the B******. (Can you tell what I think of this guy yet?)

So Pete gets the dirty job-- again-- and has to deliver the ransom money in person. MJ sees him off at the airport. He asks the question. Not that one, the other one. She answers. "I call you Tiger cause you're NOT." They kiss. He leaves. She turns, walks away, and says... "...wow..."

It took almost 2 years, but the art by Andru, Giacoia & Hunt finally started to get the main characters "on model", which it had not been since Giacoia got on the book. Romita's inks were so good, I didn't even realize WONDER WOMAN's ex had taken over the pencils. (WW!! WW! All the world is waiting for you! Oh wait, that's the tv show...)

I'd forgotten I'd seen Jim Mooney ink Andru on MARVEL TEAM-UP #2. He inked Andru's 2nd issue of ASM. Not bad, but I suddenly noticed, hey, they changed pencillers. Then Giacoia got on there... and the art started to SUCK. BAD.

Romita, it turns out, had been PLOTTING THE BOOK. Not Lee, and later, NOT Conway. Romita. But my guess is, when Romita stopped inking, he stopped plotting. Because that's the exact point the writing started to SUCK. BAD. The fake Vulture. MJ miserable. The fake Green Goblin (Harry). Now, I will admit... the fake Mysterio story was kinda fun. I still get a kick out of the cover for part 2, when he lifts his "head" up and Spidey's web shoots right between it and his shoulders, and Spidey says, "NOBODY can do-- THAT!" Romita did the cover, of course. The last page of that story, in fact, was the 1st time JJJ looked "right" since Andru & Giacoiua took over. I wonder, was it realy Giacoia, or was his assistant Dave Hunt the one getting the faces right? (Or was Romita coming back to fix the faces, uncredited as usual?)

Legend has it fans wanted to lynch Conway for killing Gwen. NO! It was all Romita's idea!!!!! He claims he wanted to do a "tribute" to STEVE CANYON, but I suspect that once Stan was out of the way, he finally had his chance to ditch the blonde and hook Pete up with the girl who ALWAYS liked him no matter what, MJ. Criminal that Romita appears to have stopped plotting the book right after the double-murders of Gwen and Norman (not Bates). You pull a major stunt like that, you should have the decency to stick around afterwards. No doubt this inspired Jim Shooter, who later on, would pull awful, horrible stunts like this all the time-- and never once, not ever, ever once, did he stick around to clean up his own mess. (What a B******.)

So, almost 2 years go by, and things finally-- FINALLY-- start to look up for Pete & MJ. And the next issue... it all starts to go to hell again. AUGH! Soap-operas... who needs 'em?

Conway had Gwen's death forced on him. Conway later had the CLONE OF GWEN STACY forced on him too. Roy says Gerry left Marvel because they refused to give him the kind of contract Roy had. But "legend" long had it, he left because he got tired of people F****** over his work on Spider-Man, and him having to take the blame for it from fans.

Hey-- maybe it's a little of both?

When I first read the death of Gwen Stacy when I was 12, I was devastated--I really felt like *I* loved Gwen, because I related to Peter so much--I would reread Spider-Man comics from 1962-1992 constantly (all titles) over and over again. So I naturally had an interest in who made decisions for Gwen to ultimately die and everything I've ever read follows exactly what you say, that it was really Romita (and that Romita always preferred MJ to Gwen). Now, like I said, my 12 year old self will always make me prefer Gwen to MJ, but that's not fair to MJ; after all, Gwen's history with Peter was almost sacrosanct (until recently ) but MJ had to suffer through awful writers and editors for 40 more years!

You're comment on the Gwen Clone is fascinating though--I always assumed it was Conway who came up with the idea and never heard otherwise. I do know I've always loved the execution of the Jackal and his ultimate reveal as Professor Warren. The mystery of the Jackal makes this era a personal favorite of mine actually. Of course, after Professor Warren was revealed to be a super-villain, Marvel editorial really needed to make sure no one else Peter happened to know was somehow a super-villain; it was getting to be a little ridiculous.

Like I said, I have a fondness for this era. But I do recognize several stories were not up to snuff. Fake Vulture. Mindworm. Grizzly. Still, I love the subplots so much at this point that I enjoy rereading them a ton. And the goofiest story of all time--Doc Ock and Aunt May's wedding--is perhaps my most guilty pleasure comic book read of all time.

I remember hating Andru's art when I was a kid because it simply wasn't Ditko or Romita. In recent years I've come to grow fond of it, and appreciate his own unique style. I've never taken the time to really compare the inkers though...something to look forward to when I reread for the 9,000th time!

Jameson's quick exit had to do with another Spider Slayer scheme I think or the Scorpion busting out of prison or something. Naturally, the Cyclone got involved. There is no doubt by the end of this story, Joe Robertson must have realized Pete was Spider-Man. It had been hinted at for decades and I've always narrowed it down to here, in France, where Robbie truly realizes it (though he had suspicions prior).

The MJ/ Peter sequence is one of the best of their entire history. The kiss at the airport was truly moving. The very best thing Conway did as a writer was take MJ at the beginning of his run and turn her into a stronger, more mature character by the end of his run (while keeping her MJ). It really starts at the end of the Death of Gwen storyline, where MJ chooses to stay with Pete after he says some awful things to her. She grows over the next 20+ issues and here at the airport, here and Pete finally have a truly beautiful moment. Unfortunately, it was really Len Wein who took over after Gerry that kind of undid so much work that Gerry put into MJ. Len put in several scenes with MJ that reverted her to selfish brat again; Marv Wolfman then wrote her out a few years later and would only be when Roger Stern came on that someone brought MJ back to where Gerry had taken her.

"MJ had to suffer through awful writers and editors for 40 more years"

Uh-huh. I first saw both Gwen & MJ in ASM #55, but neither made a dent on me. Later, I saw Gwen in a reprint of ASM #31, where she was awful-- a spoiled, selfish thing who was interested in Peter, but only on her own terms. I cannot imagine Ditko ever turning her into the nice girl she eventually became.

I then saw MJ in "Rhino on the Rampage", where she & Pete were having dinner with their aunts, they went into the lviing room and she started dancing, he heard the news, and SHE sugggested getting on his bike and going there to see what was going on in person. What a perfect girl for Peter!

I think Stan just had to "ruin" it with having Pete repeatedly thinking down thoughts about her, how it "bothered" him that she was "up" all the time (oh, would he have preferred somebody cranky and irritable?). The way I see it, Stan married a blonde. He wanted Pete to be with the blonde. Period. I never knew until quite recently that Romita wasn't co-plotting the book, he was PLOTTING it (with help from his wife & kids). But Stan wouldn't just "make" him plot the book-- or should I say, "let" him do it. Ever the "EDITOR!!", Stan always insisted on sticking in his own ideas, changing Romita's ideas, and getting in the last word. (My current boss is like that. In the last 2 months, he's repeatedly gotten in the way of me being able to do what he claims he wants-- be more "productive" on the job. He keeps letting his need to be "in control" get in the way.)

Supposedly, Stan okayed the death of Gwen story... then claimed he was out of town and knew nothing about it, to avoid blame. Then, not realzing the consequences of everyone's actions, apparently asked, "Well, can't you BRING HER BACK?" And this led to the Gwen clone story. (It also explains, to a lesser degree, why the early Lee-Romita SPIDER-MAN newspaper strip feratured a blonde in it... what was her name, Carol?)


"And the goofiest story of all time--Doc Ock and Aunt May's wedding--is perhaps my most guilty pleasure comic book read of all time."

You forgot to mention the atomic bomb blast!


"I remember hating Andru's art when I was a kid because it simply wasn't Ditko or Romita."

I think when Romita was on inks, I liked Andru-Romita lots more than Kane-Romita. But Romita was always too busy doing something else. There was ASM #125, 151... any other issues?


Jameson, if memory serves, was the one who HIRED the fake Mysterio. So when he was arrested (FOR WHAT, I find myself wondering?), he threatened to name his employer.

Does Joe know Pete is Spidey these days? I'm so completely out of the loop (and happy to be that way). Re-reading my comics up to 1973 (I hope to get back to them eventually), it's pretty clear George Stacy & Joe Robertson were slowly putting two and two together. Then Stacy got killed, and the whole tone of the series went into a tailspin it may never have really recovered from to this day.


"The MJ/ Peter sequence is one of the best of their entire history. The kiss at the airport was truly moving. The very best thing Conway did as a writer was take MJ at the beginning of his run and turn her into a stronger, more mature character by the end of his run (while keeping her MJ). It really starts at the end of the Death of Gwen storyline, where MJ chooses to stay with Pete after he says some awful things to her. She grows over the next 20+ issues and here at the airport, here and Pete finally have a truly beautiful moment."

YYYYYES!!!!! Exactly how I feel.

I would actually say that the version of MJ portrayed by Kirsten Dunst in the 3 films was based more on Gerry Conway's run than on the original Lee-Romita version. Not a completely bad thing, but Dunst in the film DICK was maybe more spot-on to the "real" MJ (heehee). (Okay, maybe that's going too far.)


"Unfortunately, it was really Len Wein who took over after Gerry that kind of undid so much work that Gerry put into MJ. Len put in several scenes with MJ that reverted her to selfish brat again"

It started right with Len's 2nd issue! His 1st was so good-- all those sub-plots, the cool Romita inks, the return of The Shocker with his outragoues "calling card" (as the cartoon Spidey once said, "Talk about a king-sized EGO!"). But Pete splits due to a crime, and the next day, MJ is acting like any "typical B**** girlfriend"-- when she was ALWAYS, to my eyes, anything but! WTF?


One thing I utterly despise, as part of my general dismissal of ALL of Tom DeFalco's writing in general (I once ranked him the WORST writer to ever work for Marvel-- though that was a long tme ago) was his absurd and out-of-left-field revelation that MJ "always" knew Pete was Spidey. B***S***!!! MJ was not "the girl who lived next door when I was growing up" in Pete's life, that was SUE STORM in REED RICHARDS' life!!! Didn't DeFalco even read the comics he was overseeing? (Oh wait, that was before he became EIC.) And of course, this got into the movies, so most people will always think it was that way... except for the part about her knowing his secret from the start.


"Marv Wolfman then wrote her out a few years later and would only be when Roger Stern came on that someone brought MJ back to where Gerry had taken her."

I admired Marv for trying to "move on" with some things when he took over, but I can NEVER forgive him for "finishing the job" his buddy Len started on MJ by having her walk out on Pete's life that way. Roger Stern, despite becoming my favorite Marvel writer in the mid-80's, also seemed to have some kind of bizarre thing going on in his attitude toward long-running romantic relationships. Think about this: Stern broke up Hank & Jan ("finishing" what Jim Shooter had started for no damn reason at all), he broke up Stephen & Clea (WHERE did that come from???), and he said openly in an interview that "You don't get back together with the EX", referring to Pete & MJ. He brought MJ back into the series, but had NO intention of her & Pete ever becoming a couple again. WTF?

My comics-shop guy Fred, when I told him this, joked, "Maybe he's gay?"


You really made me glad I posted that fun rant the other day! It amazes me that some of these stories stand out in my mind so clearly after decades. I do have very strong feelings about some of these things, so it's nice to be able to discuss them in a fun way, even if I often think the comics themselves weren't nearly as good as they could or should have been.

Though Romita’s heavy involvement in ASM shows incredibly well, its amazing to see just how vital he was in the direction of the series, to the point where he was moreso than Stan, as you say. I suspect JR was also the heavy influence in “softening up” Jonah Jameson—something I don’t mind actually and enjoy quite a bit. JJJ is my favorite all-time supporting character in that he adds a layer to Spider-Man that no other series has: an adversary that is not a villain. By the time Gil Kane had had come on, Jonah was doing things like supporting civil rights and standing up against citywide video surveillance—things Stan obviously would have him doing but I wonder if that was JR as well?

The MJ Rhino story is the 3-parter where she is introduced and its one of my favorites of all time. The Ditko run is what I consider the best of Spidey, but sometimes when I reread, I start at the very best Spider-Man story of them all (#31-33, also perhaps the greatest comic book storyline of all time IMO), and then go from there. The reason is because the transition from Ditko to Romita changes Spidey’s world so nicely—when I was a kid, it made me desperately want to go to college and move out and have a roommate, have girlfriends, go to parties and go get coffee with my friends. Gwen softens up and becomes Pete’s love interest, MJ is introduced, Harry and Pete become friends, etc. Pete even has a great sequence with Betty Brant in those issues where the two kind of reach some closure. Robbie is introduced (a huge fave of mine), Captain Stacy right after (or before?), John Jameson is a player and Fred Foswell’s story reaches a tragic and heroic end. Plus Need Leeds, Professor Warren and of course, Flash—the series was just firing on all cylinders!

Getting back to my point, the MJ introduction was just wild. I love when Spidey rescues her and she says: “Spidey, you’re a real swinger under that mask, aren’t you?” or something. How could you not want MJ to be around you? One of the things I liked later was that after two dozen issues of an icy relationship between Gwen and MJ, the two become close friends.

I believe its back to how it was in the late 60’s-early 90’s, in which we the readers think Joe knows but no one really knows for sure if he does. At least, I hope it is. I love that particular long running subplot. It begins with John Jameson and Captain Stacy right around the time John Jameson was reintroduced for a third time and almost killed by Doc Ock (and then saved by Spidey again), and the two “exchange some thoughts on Spider-Man”. At this time, Stan & Romita were introducing Joe Robertson into the series and so when John Jameson exited to handle ‘government business’, Robbie kind of stepped right into that subplot so Capt. Stacy and Robbie were the ones discussing it. Considering Capt. Stacy knew Pete was Spidey when he died, one can logically presume Robbie did too—or if not by #90 when Captain Stacy died, certainly by the Paris issues we mentioned above (with a number of odd coincidences in the 50 issues in between for Spidey and Pete).

Speaking of Captain Stacy, he was also a huge favorite of mine. A really terrific character who was akin to “the conscious of the series” as I heard him described a few years ago. Sometimes when I review other series, I look for characters who kind of fill that role. I loved that he would often provide Peter with the alibi or excuse to throw Gwen—his own Daughter!—off the trail of knowing Pete was Spider-Man. The readers were always left wondering if he really knew or not, though of course its obvious in hindsight he did.

Captain Stacy, Norman Osborn and Jonah represented the ‘upper crust’ NYC elite in the series and each one was in different areas of the moral spectrum. Captain Stacy was the morally good one and Jonah the one who only cared about money and fame. Meanwhile, Norman—who at this time had been “cured” and forgotten about his Green Goblin days—was somewhere in the middle. A good man, but not quite as kind-hearted as Captain Stacy.

I read a great article a few years back on www.spideykicksbutt.com, which is a great website with some heavy opinions; they are very strong but they are heavily backed up by continuity so they’re a great read. Anyway, the author said he thought Marv having her leave the series at that time was a great move in that it was a great ‘cooling off period’ for MJ and the readers. I concur because of (A) the damage done by Len Wein, (B) that damage implied that Peter had never really had a chance to grieve for Gwen even though as you and I both agree, that is exactly what Gerry Conway had him do and (C) all those Marvel Team-Up appearances of MJ kind of made her actually seem more of a flatter character than she was because the series was in its nature limiting in any character development for her there. In the long run, this kind of worked. Of course, having her turn down Pete’s proposal was not really the best way to go about it.

I also liked Kirsten Dunst’s job as MJ in the films and agree, its totally the Conway MJ going on there. The films capture the “transtionary MJ’ very well, from her less mature self to a person of some real substance and depth.

Interesting notion on Roger Stern, I’ve never noticed it before. He does have a tendency to move characters beyond the classic pairings. I can see how that fits into what he’s always trying to do: respect the past and acknowledge it but keep things moving forward.

Also—yeah, that Shocker story by Len was a great start in the first issue! I also loved his ‘calling card’. The cover of the issue didn’t exactly try to hard to hide his identity either.

I was glad to read it! As you know, I can talk about Spider-Man all day long, especially the specifics of various eras, characters and storylines. I really love hearing your opinions on various comic book stories—particularly Spider-Man and the Silver Age Marvels. I have a pretty positive opinion of even the lesser quality eras of Spider-Man’s history (the last 10 years being perhaps the exception to that), but I take a lot of joy in putting a critical eye to some of the bungles of the eras that I love. You provide a lot of things that make me notice things I never have after dozens of rereads: inkers and behind the scenes editorial decisions chief among them!

Y'know, this was the first time I've ever heard that Robbie apparently knows that Peter's Spidey! Sadly, I haven't read many of the Spidey stories from the eras in which Captain Stacy was alive and when Robbie was introduced. But I don't ever remember reading an issue of Spidey and wondering if Robbie knew who Spidey is. Seems like those stories Conway wrote later on with Robbie and Tombstone would've been a natural place for that to pop up again, but I don't ever remember anything, subtly or not, hinting that Robbie knew about Peter.

Huh!

Reading that era, I always got the impression that Robbie had a pretty good idea that Peter was Spidey...but never looked for that damning bit of evidence so he would not feel even remotely obligated to do anything with the information.

I'm working on a tedious & time-consuming "restoration" job for the SA Marvel site, so I appreciate taking a break here...


"I suspect JR was also the heavy influence in “softening up” Jonah Jameson—something I don’t mind actually and enjoy quite a bit."

I dunno... MY favorite version of JJJ is the 1967 Grantray-Lawrence cartoons, where he is treatred as "comic relief". When I re-read the 60's run recently, I felt ASM #1 may have been the WORST issue in the series-- and JJJ was nothing less than a MONSTER! There was NO CALL for him to have done what he did in that first issue regarding Spider-Man. Things got better issue by issue, though. As Ditko's run went on, we did see some depth to Jameson, but he worked best when someone-- Spidey or other-- made a total jackass of him (well, it was mostly JJJ doing it to himself).

By comparison, he seemed to me to be a flatter, 1-dimensional character during the Romita run. His hatred of Spidey became downright pathological. He would have outbursts against Spidey even if Spidey was in the middle of saving someone's life-- including his! The worst instance, for me, was when Spidey appeared on a talk show, and JJJ set it up with ELECTRO (who started his career ROBBING Jameson's safe, for God's sake!!!), and it caused a riot, loads of property damage, and a lot of people could have gotten seriously hurt or killed. To me, it made no sense that JJJ was able to just walk away from that. CRIMINAL charges should have been pressed, a scandal should have ensued, the rep of his newspaper tarnished. THAT would have made an interesting story... but it never happened!

It does seem that it was during Kane's run that, while Pete's life went TO HELL, that somehow, Jameson started standing up for things, like when he defended Joe against a bigot. It's a strange contraditiction in terms, when I think about it. (Then again, maybe after the Electro incident he started seeing a shrink? He sure as hell needed one! Dangerous criminal lunatic!!)

Pencillers tended to at least co-plot stories back then, and I've heard that apparently Kane was contributing, though not as much as Romita did for Stan. (Stan's contributions during Romita's run seem to consist of suggesting villains, telling John to hook Pete up with Gwen, make Gwen prettier, make MJ's hair uglier, etc.)


When Romita took over from Ditko, it seems to me that Gwen, Harry & Flash all "softened" a bit too much, too fast. it didn't feel natural. If you started reading around the Rhino story, you wouldn't notice, but readling all the issues in sequence, it felt like something was missing.

I loved the dynamic in "IN THE HANDS OF THE HUNTER", when they had the party for Flash's going into the army. Gwen & MJ were almost like Veronica & Betty, only not as polite. The harsher, more self-centered Gwen seemed a better match for Harry, who also came from a well-to-do family.

If I recall rightly, Stacy was introduced in the issues when Spidey had AMNESIA, and Gwen was startting to show she really cared about Pete, who was missing.


“Spidey, you’re a real swinger under that mask, aren’t you?”

One of my favorite bits is in the 2nd Kingpin story, with the nightclub (Gloom Room A Go Go), where MJ walks in during a fight, some goon tries to use her as a shield, Spidey clobbers the guy, swings off with her holding on tight. After he puts her down and takes off, she asks, "Do you have any brothers?" (I asked a girl I really liked just a few months ago, "Got any friends or sisters like you?" --she was married.)


"I loved that he would often provide Peter with the alibi or excuse to throw Gwen—his own Daughter!—off the trail of knowing Pete was Spider-Man. The readers were always left wondering if he really knew or not, though of course its obvious in hindsight he did."

They REALLY never should have killed him. After Uncle Ben, and ASM #31-33, that should have been enough of that sort of thing.


"certainly by the Paris issues we mentioned above"

Never mind the Cyclone story... remember the Gil Kane story where Pete went to London to take pics (and see Gwen)? After he went into action as Spidey, he realized he couldn't see Gwen, because she might put two and two together. But, WHAT ABOUT JOE? Pete gave Joe pics OF Spidey! Didn't it even occur to him that a newspaper man might put the same two and two together? GEEZ!


"Meanwhile, Norman—who at this time had been “cured” and forgotten about his Green Goblin days—was somewhere in the middle. A good man, but not quite as kind-hearted as Captain Stacy."

It's only the last couple years, after re-reading these things over again, that I realized something. When Stan & Johnny told the Green Goblin's origin, they were doing a RETREAD of Doc ock's origin! Noble scientist, lab accident, guy goes insane, becomes a criminal... The thing is, I never got that vibe at all from Ditko's portrayal of the Goblin. But on the other hand, Stan seemed to completely forget Ock's origin. Once he went mad, he became a power-mad criminal bent on building a criminal gang, and he also became (in my view) the MOST DANGEROUS of all of Spidey's enemies. Something else else tells me Stan forgot Ock's origin when he told the Goblin's... and he spent an awful lot of time afterwards trying to build up the Goblin as so extrememly dangerous-- and yet, we were supposed to sympathize with him. Sheesh.

It may have been the 2nd movie that also pointed this up for me. Ock WAS a very sympathetic character before his accident (as opposed to the comic, where he was a 1-dimensional cipher with no personality-- that accident actually gave him a personality he never had before!). In the film, although they played Ock up as extrememly dangerous, you still felt sympathy for him at the end.

By comparison, I never WANTED to feel sympathy for Osborn in the comics. I may be getting confused here, but it seems to me Osborn was somewhat shady to begin with... the accident just pushed him to lengths he might not otherwise. It was the AMNESIA that "cured" him, made him a nicer person than he ever had been, even before he became a super-villain. And yet, Stan seemed to forget even this, and in sequels kept trying to paint Osborn as deserving sympathy. I can't help but wish he'd died the way he did in the film... having tried, but FAILED to kill Pete's girlfriend. After such a build-up, for years and years, they should have had Pete & Gwen get married. then MJ would have had something to be heartbroken about. (I could see MJ dumping Harry after a marriage proposal.. after all, he was just her "rebound" guy. Sad for him, but true.)


"I also loved his ‘calling card’. The cover of the issue didn’t exactly try to hard to hide his identity either."

The 2nd half of that 2-parter was such a let-down! MJ's personality changed between issues, Romita didn't ink, and after "writing his name in lights", I don't even remember what The Shocker did next, but he got beaten way too fast.

To be fair to you then Lardy, the notion that Robbie knew Peter was Spidey was something that was ongoing and prominent at the close of the Silver Age and in the early-mid 1970’s; it would pop-up again throughout Spidey history but a lot of the time IMO, it was very implied and kind of relied on the idea that the reader might already have that suspicion in their head. In other words, there is a case to be made that Joe does not know Peter is Spidey, and anyone who did not read those Silver & Bronze Age issues might automatically think so.

During the end of the Silver Age, as I said above, there was a long-running subplot where Robbie and Captain Stacy would have talks about Spidey, comparing notes. It was certainly implied they were close to guessing who Spidey was and we soon learned Captain Stacy indeed knew. Prof points out an obvious (and pretty groovy) story in which Peter and Spidey are both in London looking for Gwen and Robbie knows—he reminded me that in that issue and the following issue Peter makes some thoughts where he basically says “Oh well, if Robbie didn’t know before, he certainly has some suspicions!”. The aforementioned Paris/Cyclone story further confirms this, though Conway had peppered his run with some exchanges where Jonah exclaims he can’t believe Parker can get pics of Spidey no one else can and Robbie makes a comment that is like a casual wink to the reader that he has other suspicions.

The next major milestone for Robbie IMO was what I consider the greatest scene in the character’s history, which occurred sometime during Len Wein’s run (although there is a chance it was at the beginning of Marv’s—I can never remember which issue). In this scene, a down and out Spidey comes to Joe for help and hides out in his car. After scaring Joe, Joe yells at him for doing that and actually puts Spidey in his place. He then gives him some great advice and even tells him a story about how he and his wife lost their second son when the boy was a baby. It’s a moving, touching scene and it reinvigorates Peter. This might actually occur in the Bart Hamilton / Green Goblin III story at the climax of Len’s run. The scene basically firmly establishes Robbie as the heir of Captain Stacy as conscience of the series and guiding force for Pete (a role even Aunt May took on more during Ditko’s run). It also is important because it shows how critical Robbie is to Spider-Man at this point; even though not one bit of dialogue reference Robbie possibly knowing who Spidey is, the implication that he does is felt throughout.

Hereafter, I can’t recall if any specific references are made during Marv’s run, the Denny O’Neil transition issues, Roger Stern’s issues and for a few years. I, personally, always had it in mind whenever Robbie interacted with Pete or Spidey. I suspect some of the writers did too (certainly Marv, who was friends with Len and Gerry).

I’ll note that during Kraven’s Last Hunt, MJ suspects that Robbie suspects Pete is Spidey but doesn’t follow through and ask him about it. That’s an obvious nod to the reader’s suspicions.

Somewhere along the way, that entire bit became a less central and almost never mentioned facet of the mythos. I agree that Gerry could really have brought that back to the forefront during those Tombstone issues (BTW, I love those issues and Tombstone in general and they are a high point of the 80’s for me). It would have made a ton of sense. But I sure remember a huge friendliness, or at least an amount of familiarity Robbie showed Spidey during that era that could be interpreted as him believing it was Peter and feeling that way. But yeah, too bad Conway never followed up on that thread! The obvious reason why though is right there: MJ knew at this point Pete was Spider-Man. So what would make Robbie knowing so special? Not all that much really. So there is your answer right there as to why it became a much less important thing.

In current Spidey continuity, I think not only does Robbie suspect, but Ben Urich not only suspects but might actually know.

PS – give me your thoughts on those Tombstone issues sometime! Tombstone is my absolute favorite post-Stern era villain Spidey has ever had (possibly only Shriek and Cardiac come close). When I was 12 years old, Tombstone scared the hell out of me!

There are so many great JJJ scenes over Spidey’s history that its hard to pinpoint a few. Like I said, I love the gradual shift of his character over the decades, but I also like how it was very slow and gradual. For instance, I love during the Tablet Saga where Spidey basically almost gives JJJ a heart attack. I also love how JJJ totally is over the top in proclaiming the Prowler threw Peter Parker out the window.

I loved when he was an antagonist for Spidey in that he made his life harder, but I also loved him being played for laughs too—like proclaiming he was like a father to Peter, when he was trying to pay him peanuts for great photos. Just a great, great character. From what I know of Ditko, Ditko put him in there because he knew and hated people like that in real life—people who only cared about wealth and fame and were full of greed. But Romita and Stan softened him up and when the real life 1960’s culture influenced Marvel more and more, JJJ emerged (with Robbie) as a mouthpiece for liberal progressive forces within the comic. This dynamic helped make Jonah a character with a lot of depth, something Marv, Roger Stern and others played with for years.

He’s currently back in the series as Mayor of NYC and I’m thrilled about it. While at first I thought the Mayor of NYC thing was needlessly over the top, I’m actually enjoying its execution. What I *hated* was the decade of almost no Jonah at all in the series.

I also love that story! That is the story above all other that made the idea of “throwing a party” and “getting coffee with your friends” so appealing to me when I was still young enough to barely scrape together $5.00. Similar to JJJ, this era also gave Flash a great dash of depth: he remained quite a jerk to Peter, but here he was going off to serve his country in Viet Nam. Ditko and Stan’s run always had him as Spidey’s biggest fan, but this took it to the next level in terms of getting readers to feel something other than animosity for him. Whenever he’d come home from the War, that dynamic would always be there and he was a great character to have around. Peter shaking his hand and wishing him luck before he leaves is a big moment for both character in terms of maturing from the beginning of the series. It’s another example of the growth and maturity of the series during this era I like.

I do agree somewhat with you that Gwen, Harry and Flash’s turnaround is rather quick. But then again, High School kids going to College do experience quick shifts in temperament so its not too far fetched. But more than anything it reflects the shift in art from Ditko’s quirky and often purposely ugly style to Romita’s softer, more beautiful style. Ditko will always be my #1 Spidey artist, but Romita is a close #2. Their styles couldn’t be more different but both are essential to understanding the history and character of Spider-Man.

Good memory, you’re exactly right! Captain Stacy first appears in the police station with John Jameson IIRC, and then we see him with Gwen. Soon after, the Kingpin story which mirrored “The Manchurian Candidate” places Captain Stacy front and center as a major supporting character.

During this time, Doc Ock and Kingpin had three terrific stories each (in what I call the second half of Spidey’s Silver Age, in other words the Romita years). The two would go back and forth with 3-4 issue arcs every 8-10 issues. In my Reviews earlier in this thread—which I admit are a little embarrassing to me as I was still kind of cutting my teeth in posting—I get into the transition of Spidey’s major villains over the years, and how at the close of Romita’s run, Spidey emerged with really no major arch-nemesis anymore. What I mean is Doc Ock went from killing Captain Stacy to having a grudge with Hammerhead (and soon ‘dying’); Green Goblin soon died and Kingpin never recovered from his battle with his son, only showing back up in Captain America of all places. So this was the perfect time for the Jackal to come in and take the place as Spidey’s new arch-nemesis for a brief period.

^For the record, IMO Spidey’s greatest nemesis will always be Doc Ock. When the Goblin was dead, it kept a certain aura around him to make sure he kept tied for the top spot with him; now that he’s been back for a long time, he’s lost his luster a bit. Doc Ock, like MJ, has suffered under 50 years of editors and writers giving him bad stories, so its unfortunate.

Yeah, Norman’s personality shift is big once he loses the amnesia. This is because of two factors (I have no proof of course ): (A) Ditko left and Norman the jerk was a quintessential Ditko character if there ever was one and (B) Stan didn’t care if he changed a character’s personality in a huge way if it fit the story. So Norman certainly was a bit of an awful person with bad intentions before he became the Green Goblin (which enhanced those qualities) and then once the amnesia hit—he was the nicest guy you’d ever want to meet.

The subplot where Norman begins recalling his memories which ran for a long series of issues was one that totally engrossed me and still does to this day. I’m talking about the first time around, which (stupidly IMO) continued the Spectacular Spider-Man comic book special #2—something I never even got to read until I was like 25! So I never got to see how that subplot ended. They then of course retread this during the 90’s for the second Green Goblin return story (the Harry Osborn drug issues). During that second return, Norman really lets loose as a jerk, specifically towards Randy Robertson; that bit of dialogue has serious undertones of prejudice against class & race.

You’re also right that GG’s origin is a bit of a copy of Doc Ock’s. It was a classic Stan super-villain origin. I’m trying to recall other times he used the same thing. This is basically the origin of the Jackal as well, though rather than a tragic lab experiment, it’s a psychological breakdown—an origin much more fitting for the 1970’s and Gerry Conway, though similar to the classic trope.

I agree that Doc Ock in the second Spider-Man movie was terrific—the actor does a great job at making him likeable and a good man, and really fills the character out in a way ASM #3 never did. I kind of want the movie origin to be fitted onto Doc Ock in the comics (and actually I think it has been) since Norman the jerk is a firm part of continuity now.

Wrapping up, I’m thrilled at the back and forth in this thread! I know my posts are gigantic and hope no one minds; I like getting into the long time trends of Spidey-history while at the same time really getting into the details and obscure bits!

Just finished several HOURS fixing links and re-formatting text files for the SA Marvel site... I need a break.


"Ben Urich not only suspects but might actually "know.""

EHHH!! Urich is a DD character, he shouldn't be part of Spidey's cast & problems.


"From what I know of Ditko, Ditko put him in there because he knew and hated people like that in real life—people who only cared about wealth and fame and were full of greed."

I sometimes think JJJ & Peter were Ditko's fictional versions of Stan Lee & Steve Ditko.


"For the record, IMO Spidey’s greatest nemesis will always be Doc Ock."

It has bugged me for decades that The Goblin got built up into something much bigger than he deserved to be, and in the general public, more since the 1st movie perhaps than even before, he's Spidey's "arch enemy". Also because he bears a slight resemblance to The Joker, another "crazy" looking guy who at times was hard to take serious. (On the BATMAN tv show, there was no doubt that Frank Gorshin's Riddler WAS Adam West's arch-enemy! Nobody else came across that "dangerous".)

In the '67 cartoons, there was no doubt Ock was Spidey's most dangerous foe. (even though Dr. Noah Boddy claimed HE was Spider-Man's "arch-enemy"-- what was that about a king-sized ego??) Not only was Ock in the 1st episode, he radiated menace, and was willing to destroy a large section of New York City, JUST to prove a point! In his return, during a fight, he threatened to "drop the Nullifier on the city." Spidey thinks, "He's JUST the guy to DO it!" (In the cartoon, it wasn't an electronic device that would short out other devices, it was an anti-missile MISSILE.)

In the comic, Ock went from being 1-dimensional to 2 after his accident. In the movie, he went from 3-dimensional to 2 after his accident. Before, so different, but after, EXACTLY like the comics version (especially Romita's REALLY dangerous depiction of him).

What cracked me up was having never seen actor Alfred Molina before SPIDER-MAN 2, and the very day after I saw it, he appeared on tv as Hercule Poirot in a remake of MURDER ON THE ORIENT EXPRESS. (That had to have been deliberate on the part of the network scheduling.)

Ock could have been looked at as a tragic figure, as he was a decent person "before" (presumably), but as I said, once he became a super-villain, for the entirety of the 60's and 70's, nobody EVER ONCE "looked back"! That was all given over to Norman Osborn, who, in the Lee-Romita ORIGIN story, was shown to be a RAT before his accident. (I don't actually recall Norman much in the Ditko era. Wasn't he introduced only a couple of issues before Steve left?)

So Ock never got sympathy back then, because Stan apparently FORGOT all about his origin, and didn't realize he was doing with Norman what he should have been doing for Ock. (Maybe.)


To me, "Doc Ock" was a diabolical MONSTER. I don't recall if he ever crossed paths with The Green Goblin in the comics, but if he did, he would have CRUSHED him like an insect... or something. "Now-- where was I before I was so rudely interrupted?"


I have never yet read SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #2 in its entirety. In the early 70's, it was reprinted in a GIANT, but they cut a LOT OF PAGES out of it!

I can see we're in total agreement about Ock. And yes, he would have CRUSHED the Green Goblin had they met.

Putting aside the incredible #11 and #12, and the legendary and glorious #31-33, Doc Ock also reminded us why he was the top dog in the Sinister Six Annual, and then had (like I mentioned before) three terrific stories post-Ditko. There was a real sense that with Doc Ock, Spidey could really lose at anytime. Not many other of his enemies gave that sense of danger.

You reminded me of the actor's name--Alfred Molina! IMO the greatest super-villain ever on screen, perhaps only competing would be Ian McKellan's Magneto (the latest Batman villains come close but not quite on this level).

Another Spider-villain who had the same sort of danger to him was the Lizard, particularly in the Silver Age. #6 was a classic and one of my favorites if for no other reason than seeing Ditko draw the Lizard and other reptiles. But I also really loved the Romita story in #44-45, which had a brilliant ending to it that MUST have been stolen from a 50's B-movie. It also had Spidey put his arm in a sling, which has been copied dozens of times in the decades sense. Naturally Pete blames it on a motorcycle accident and what made him seem cool suddenly makes him seem less so. Poor Peter.

That story also had Aunt May going off to Florida for awhile, showing it was an era where Aunt May still did things. The addition of MJ to the series was so good its easy to sometimes recall that it also meant Aunt Anna became a much bigger player in the series than before as she had more reason to be on screen. That meant Aunt May wasn't so helpless and lonely as she was under Ditko. It also meant May and Anna could show up together and they provided some welcome tension relief and humorous exchanges with Peter and the gang. All things that helped make this era so spectacular!

On another note, given I do review current Spider-Man comics, I have to say the reprinting of the online Bob Gale stories in "Peter Parker", have been terrific! Bob Gale was who I considered the weakest of the Spidey writers BND (aka the 'webheads'), but not anymore! This is a really great series full of fun and real spunk. I highly recommend this to anyone looking for a fun Spidey series, and it's also great for younger readers.

In general I liked those Conway second coming stories pretty well. I remember Spectacular with Conway being preferable to the other titles in that they were more character-driven and showcased the supporting cast better. I liked how Conway gave Robbie so much more attention than I'd ever seen him get in that era of Spidey stories.

The downside is that I found Conway's villains a little corny, including Tombstone to an extent, just as I did many of his creations that appeared during his first run. Sal Buscema's art was part of the reason. Sal's art on Spidey took a long time to grow on me. Tombstone's look just seemed kinda goofy, the chalk-white skin, the crew cut, the sharp teeth--he kinda looked like J. Jonah Jameson and Michael Morbius's bastard child!

So I enjoyed the spotlight on Robbie during that time, but my enjoyment on the Tombstone arc was tempered by my discontent with Buscema. Much more to my liking was the stuff with the Jackal, the Gwen Stacy Clone and Carrion. Pity it was all undone by the Clone Saga, but I found it enjoyable.

I finally warmed up to Sal on Spidey when DeMatteis came aboard and they told the epic Harry Osborne/Vermin mega-story! Those two blended together very well, and Sal's depiction of Harry as Green Goblin is among my very favorite visuals on the character, right up there with Romita Sr.!

"Putting aside the incredible #11 and #12, and the legendary and glorious #31-33, Doc Ock also reminded us why he was the top dog in the Sinister Six Annual, and then had (like I mentioned before) three terrific stories post-Ditko."

After the 2 '67 cartoons (where, inexplicably, Doc had 2 very different voices-- the 1st, Shakespearean, the 2nd, more standard "menacing"), my next view of him was in ASM #55-- "DOC OCK WINS". Damn, is he dangerous in there! (But Spidey is also VERY pissed. Watch out, baddies.)

Your comment about the Annual reminds me of the 1st FLASH comic I ever read-- "Stupendous Triumph of the Six Super-Villains". In that, it was blatently obvious WHO The Flash's "arch-enemy" really was-- it was the guy running the show-- MIRROR MASTER. When THE FLASH tv show was on, TV GUIDE stupidly referred to The Trickster as his "arch-enemy", because A)he appeared twice, and, no doubt, B)he reminded them of The Joker. They were wrong. Over that entire tv season, it was clear to me who the coolest, and SMARTEST of the tv villains on show was-- MIRROR MASTER (played by David Cassidy!!)


"You reminded me of the actor's name--Alfred Molina! IMO the greatest super-villain ever on screen"

Could be... though I'll always have a fondness for Frank Gorshin's Riddler (who was so much more dangerous than the comics version EVER was). Chuck Dixon retold ther Riddler's origin in a 'YEAR ONE" annual, which blew my mind, because for the only time reading a Riddler comic, I swore I could "hear" Gorshin's voice in the dialogue.


"Another Spider-villain who had the same sort of danger to him was the Lizard, particularly in the Silver Age. #6 was a classic and one of my favorites if for no other reason than seeing Ditko draw the Lizard and other reptiles. But I also really loved the Romita story in #44-45, which had a brilliant ending to it that MUST have been stolen from a 50's B-movie."

The cartoon adapting #6 was brillant. It was so odd that they did a sequel with Connors that did not feature The Lizard, but instead, brought back Aussie hunter Oli Clivendon (and also featured Ponce De Leon). The 3rd season did a terrible "sequel" that was virtually a remake, but featured an intelligent reptile, not Connors turned into one. The 2nd Lizard story in the comics was a classic, and really showed Romita at the height of his power. the action finale in part 2 went on for page after page, and never got boring. Frankly, EVERY Lizard story after that feels to me to have been uncalled-for. (Just like every Goblin sequel after SPECTACULAR #2.)


"That story also had Aunt May going off to Florida for awhile, showing it was an era where Aunt May still did things."

I loved the one time May showed up on the '67 cartoons. Pete was sick, she was nursing hjim back to health, he was annoyed at her attitude and "remedies", but unlike tyhe May in the comics, the one in that cartoon had a backbone of steel. When she told off JJJ over the phone, it was hilarious! Lots of people over the years (including John Buscema) have disliked May for her combination of physical feebleness, and gullibility somehow mixed with excessive smothering. May never quite seemed that way in the Ditko era, but the one on the G-L cartoon ("HORN OF THE RHINO") was somebody I could admire.

My first exposure to Sal Buscema'a pencils was the CAP story "Turning Point!" where he discovers he has super-strength. Steve Englehart brought back several of the baddies from the X-MEN 2-parter with Count Nefaria, and it was generally a fun issue. On re-reading it last year, I noticed something I missed before-- while John Verpoorten was credited as inker, the 1st HALF of the issue was inked by Joe Sinnott (uncredited!). NO WONDER it looked so good. I think for me, it's been downhill with Sal all the way ever since...


"You could make an entire movie out of ASM #44-45"

Maybe... but I'd hate to leave out ASM #6. But how could that work, structurally? I wonder similar thoughts about a "1st" FF movie they never made. My choice would have been some kind of adaptation of FF #1-2. You have the introduction of the characters, the origin, and the MOLE MAN on Monster Island. Actually maybe that would be enough for a whole movie. The Skrulls, should probably have their own movie, with the plot of the first 4 Skrull stories somehow stitched together into one big epic, ending with "Behold! A Distant Star!"

The only other Lizard story I ever cared for at all was the one with Morbius. I was surprised not long ago by how much I enjoyed ASM #101-- every fibre of it screams "Horror comics are back!", and it's much more fun to read than it seems it should be. Tossing The Lizard in there, with Connors in control for most of it, made an interesting change.


"Doc Conners played a critical role in #31-33 which is my favorite appearance of him EVER, and there was no need for the Lizard to be there."

I think that was the idea behind the cartoon "FOUNTAIN OF DOOM" as well, which was a sequel to both "WHERE CRAWLS THE LIZARD" and "THE ONE-EYED IDOL".

"I can assure you your demise will look like an accident."
"Now that takes a LOAD off my mind!"


"You had (2) major recurring menaces, Doc Ock and the Kingpin. The entire 50’s goes from Kingpin to Doc Ock to a few issues where Spidey has no memory (Ka-Zar and Spider-Slayer) to right back to the Kingpin when Spidey regains his memory!"

That was HELL for me. I read ASM #55 shortly after it came out (freebie from the barber's). Incredibly, I read ASM #56 shortly after! But I didn't read ASM #57 until 8 years later, when a coverless copy SOMEHOW turned up at the corner store. I read #59-up in MARVEL TALES when they came out, but had to buy a copy of #58 at a convention the first time I went to one in NYC several YEARS later. (Unless I'm mistaken, they didn't include #57 or 58 in MARVEL TALES. Grrrr.)

You think waiting a week for the conclusion of a 2-parter on TV is bad, try waiting that many YEARS to read how a story finishes!


"Medusa’s appearance"

That was FUNNY, especially the lunatic who hired her for the ad campaign, who seemed like he could have been the brother of the movie producer back in ASM #16. "I can see it all now! We'll get a hundred dancing girls..." When he tells Spidey, "She's gone mad! She's out to destroy the city!", you'd think Spidey would at least have wondered... "How?"


"Black Widow’s appearance"

I was SEVERELY disappointed when I re-read this one in sequence. It made Natasha seem really stupid, the way she acted. Then again, having read a few of her first solo episodes right after, it seems she wasn't getting much good writing around that time.


"the issue where a delirious Pete reveals his identity to everyone and the Prowler has to save his ass"

I was so tempted to just STOP re-reading my Spidey comics at that point. Right after there, to me, is when things REALLY started to take a turn for the dark side.


"the Prison riot"

Now THERE is a classic, ans one that was adapted as the season finale for the '68-'69 season of the cartoon show. Except for changing the beginning (the tv version makes no sense at all), they were surprisingly true to the comic, even using a lot of actual Stan Lee dialogue, plus the "film noir" music was fantastic. They got Stacy's voice perfect in there, too, though it's a bit odd to hear him calling his wife on the phone instead of his daughter. Something else else I forget if it was in the comic that was in the show, at the beginning Spidey is lamenting spending nights running around town chasing crooks in a hot costume. At the end, as he leaves the prison, he tells Stacy he actually LIKES doing all that. It just occurs to me NOW, in a way, they may have also been adapting ASM #50, only I think the way it was handled in that cartoon was BETTER than the actual "Spider-Man No More", which to me was too much of a violation of Pete & Spider-Man, considering WHY he became a costumed crime-fighter in the first place. (Come to think of it, when SUPERMAN did a take-off on that issue, I think they handled it better than the Spidey comic, because at least in there, Supes was suffering guilt from almost having been responsible for an innocent person's death. ALMOST. Wimp...)

The 2nd season (Bakshi & Morrow's 1st) began with "THE ORIGIN OF SPIDERMAN" (adapted not from AMAZING FANTASY #15 but instead from SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #2-- they used Stan's BADLY re-written dialogue verbatim!) and ended with "TO CAGE A SPIDER" (where, as I said, he was having a crisis of confidence about whether he wanted to continue being a hero or not). Nice bookends.


I'm amazed that I'm having so much fun here talking about a series I have such a violent love-hate thing about over the years. (If it were the FF, that'd be a lot simpler. I love almost everything in Kirby's 108 issues. And I HATE with a vengeance just about everything that followed until Roy Thomas took over the writing. It's gonna be painful when I get around to re-posting all those reviews I did of that era at the SA Marvel site.)

I always lump the Medusa and Black Widow appearances together when I talk about them even though there were a dozen or so issues apart because they served the same basic purpose. You point out another interesting thing: the Medusa story was somewhat silly, but in a good way; the Black Widow story also had a bit of this silliness, but it simply didn't work with Natasha.

This is a really a key issue for the Black Widow in her history too: it bridges her Avengers appearances to her stint in Amazing Adventures (and then Daredevil). I suspect most people don't realize it was in Spider-Man where she first got her black costume, the one most associated with her.

There were two great prison riot issues in the first 100 issues: one in the early-mid 60's (a classic) and one in #99. The latter one was perhaps not quite as solid from a story standpoint but it had that Gil Kane art where he was just channeling horror so well. You mention above the Morbuis/Lizard story that is basically a horror comic, and #99 a few issues prior really has that kind of claustrophobic, super-intense Kane art. Some of the prisoners look like they might lose their freaking minds at any minute.

That era was truly the second great age of horror comics, with DC and Marvel now taking a cue from Creepy and leading the charge. Gil Kane really gave his all to Marvel in a ton of different ways (his covers on the reprint Westerns alone were amazing), and his horror work just stands out. You're 70's review thread really goes into this well.

When I was a kid I hated the Morbius story because of Spidey having 6 arms, which was something my Dad hated--he'd gotten out of comics entirely a few years earlier (never getting over Ditko leaving) and happened to check back in right as Spidey had 6 arms, and immediately deciding not to continue, thinking it might be permanent. (He eventually came back full-time in 1980 and hunted down all the Spider-Man's he missed). But eventually, I warmed up to it and came to really enjoy the story because it was just so out there, y'know? 6 armed Spidey, Morbius, the Lizard...off the wall stuff and FUN! I also love the Kraven, Ka-Zar, Gog story that followed for the same type of spirit exhibited. Both showcase Gil Kane putting Spidey in the genres of the era (horror and then monster-adventure).

Plus that latter story had Gwen in a bikini all issue and as I said, she was the great fictional love of my life when I was a kid (and still ).

I never realized they reprinted stories in Marvel Tales out of order. That must have been mind-numbingly frustrating!! Marvel should really have a Marvel Tales series reprinting Spidey these days about 3-5 years behind the current issues like it used to be, and for about $1.99. I be they'd make a killing.

I'm pretty sure John Romita designed Natasha's 2nd costume (as a tribute to Diana Rigg, no doubt, though most Americans didn't know her outfits started with Honor Blackman). For most of the 70's, The Black Widow was on my short list of sexiest women in comics, even if she didn't always get good writing. Anybody know-- was the mask & fishnets outfit designed by Don Heck, or Jack Kirby? That itself was no doubt a tribute to the earlier characters BLACK CANARY (Carmine Infantino's self-proclaimed "ideal image of a woman") and BLACK CAT (the Lee Elias biker girl character).


"it had that Gil Kane art where he was just channeling horror so well. You mention above the Morbuis/Lizard story that is basically a horror comic, and #99 a few issues prior really has that kind of claustrophobic, super-intense Kane art. Some of the prisoners look like they might lose their freaking minds at any minute."

I've long felt MOST of Gil Kane's art had that vibe about it. Remember his brief run on DAREDEVIL written by Jim Shooter? Especially the last one, #151, where Matt has his nervous breakdown (which made its way into the live-action movie). I keep hoping someday they'll do a "Wally Wood" or "Gene Colan" DD movie, with Stilt-Man and Masked Marauder as the baddies (YES, STILT-MAN!), and Karen Page as the love interest. I don't know where it came from, but I actually had a DREAM about going to the theatre to see this movie they never made several weeks ago!


"his covers on the reprint Westerns alone were amazing"

I posted a number of them at the SA site a few weeks ago in the WESTERN GUNFIGHTERS section. Some are terrific, others I'd just call "brutal!!".


"When I was a kid I hated the Morbius story because of Spidey having 6 arms, which was something my Dad hated--he'd gotten out of comics entirely a few years earlier (never getting over Ditko leaving) and happened to check back in right as Spidey had 6 arms, and immediately deciding not to continue, thinking it might be permanent."

Somehow or other, my Mom must have picked that thing up-- she was into horror, and I guess the title "VAMPIRE AT LARGE!" grabbed her attention. That issue, as far as I can recall, was my very 1st exposure to Gil Kane. What a shock! Some of his figure-work seemed awkward, and I didn't think his Gwen looked as pretty as she should have. Over the years it's taken me a LONG time to appreciate Kane's "intense" style, but he has slowly grown on me. One of the things that did it was actually drawing most of a comic-book story using SWIPES of his panels, as a tribute. By the time I was done, I realized his sensitivities were totally different than mine (I had so much trouble in spots), but it also increased my appreciation for him. The next story I drew was done mostly in STEVE DITKO swipes-- also as a fun experiment & tribute. I was shocked when that worked out so well. I'd never have imagined my sensibilities could be so in tune with his!


"I never realized they reprinted stories in Marvel Tales out of order. That must have been mind-numbingly frustrating!!"

One of Nick Simon's coolest ideas at the SA Marvel site was "compare" pages to show original and reprint covers side-by-side. But one of the biggest changes I made when I started work on the side was changing the "compare" pages from being linked in sequence to the reprints, to linked in sequence to the originals. I did this specifically because of how CHAOTIC Marvel's reprints have been over the years.

One example that stands out in my head was Iron Man, which started in MARVEL'S COLLECTOR ITEM CLASSICS/MARVEL'S GREATEST COMICS, but then moved to MARVEL SUPER-HEROES before landing in MARVEL DOUBLE-FEATURE (with a pair of IRON MAN ANNUALs in between).

I was so thrilled in the late 70's when I got my first job and was able to start going to comic book conventions and buying the originals of so many 60's comics, for relatively cheap. I only wish I'd bought a lot more, before prices went completely insane.

When MARVEL TALES "started over" in the early 80's it was the first time they had ever reprinted the entire Ditko era-- EVERY episode-- in sequence (well, maybe not the Annuals). ASM #29, the 2nd Scorpion story, had NEVER been reprinted, and when they approached that issue, they discovered the reason was, no stats or negatives could be found. So they hired outside help (Owen McCarron did the work) to RE-CREATE the art so new stats could be shot, which have been used (more or less) ever since. I later figured out while watching the '67 cartoons that the original stats may have been loaned to Grantray-Lawrence for reference, since quite a few panels from that issue were recognizably animated in the 1st Scorpion cartoon (a combination adaptation of the 1st AND 2nd stories from the comics). When G-L went belly-up, apparently a lot of art they had in their possession "went home" with their former employees.

What really pissed me off about the 80's MARVEL TALES run was, they stopped with #50. One episode into a 3-parter! To this day, I have still NEVER READ #51-52, even though I've seen the TV adaptation(s) of it dozens and dozens of times. ("KING PINNED", with the climax from the comic actually appearing in "THE BIG BRAINWASHER"-- go figure.)

Yeah, you nailed it--the facial expressions were what turned me off initially. They seemed kind of out of place on a Spider-man book. You see, I was 100% fine with Sal's work on Thor after Walt Simonson stopped pencilling but remained as writer. His style fit in well with Walt's and, honestly, Sal had altered his style somewhat to fit in with what Walt had been doing. I was used to more exaggeration and stylistic choices on that book, so his work on Thor worked for me very well. I liked it a lot.

But Spider-man at the time was a more vanilla book traditionally with its art in that era with the rare exceptions of Todd McFarlane and then Erik Larsen. Sal's style was neither super-progressive like McFarlane nor of the Spider-man house style that had been prevalent with such artists as Romita Jr. (his early work, of course), Al Milgrom, Rick Burchet, Ross Andru or various others who'd been on the Spidey books--all inoffensive and unremarkable but with a certain consistency and contemporary feel to them.

Sal on Spectacular by comparison just felt too '70s. He shared some stylistic similarities in his artistic approach to Gil Kane, another artist it took me a long time to warm up to. So with Sal we had neither the progressive flair that had shown up recently in Amazing nor the Spidey house style of recent times. It was retro and exaggerated, especially in the facial expressions. But like I said, it eventually grew on me, and I could appreciate the craft, just as I came to with Gil Kane.

Tombstone was one of the rare attempts to create someone knew for Spidey to fight and a way to make Robbie more relevant in the supporting cast, so I applaud Conway for bringing him in. But doesn't my "bastard child of Michael Morbius and J. Jonah Jameson" comment just nail it on the head?

This one?



Man! That DeMatteis/Buscema run was, well, spectacular wasn't it? I see now it was longer than I'd originally thought, at about two years. I've often found it disappointing that he and Peter David never seemed to stick around on Spidey for a very long time, as they and Roger Stern have the best knack for writing the character other than Stan himself, IMO.

Sorry, only the vaguest of recollections about those Puma issues, Des. Probably my strongest impressions of that character were from stories by Tom DeFalco and Peter David.

Again, the memory's imperfect here, but I recall that Gerry in his use of the Jackal, Carrion and the Gwen clone was trying to explain that they were never actually clones to fit in, I think, to fit in to some editorial edict or ret-conning of some sort (memory very fuzzy, there). Somehow, I enjoyed it anyway because I'd read reprints of the original stories and was glad to see them revisited, even with a revisionist bent, by the writer who'd come up with all of these concepts in the first place.

In a way the annual and the Carrion stories Conway did undermined the previous stories, but just the fact that they were being revisited was enjoyable in any way was fun for me. Then came the Clone Saga and took things too, TOO far...

You know, I also have no idea who designed the Black Widow’s original ‘costume’ with the fishnets. Either way, while her personality was sexy, she was never explicitly attractive in it by either Kirby or Heck. In fact, she was really outshined by the beautiful Wanda in her Avengers appearances. Like you said though, once she got the second costume, she was quickly among the sexiest comic book characters in the entire 70’s. Again, as a redhead, you can see how she was right up Romita’s ally. She’s similar enough in appearance to Mary Jane, but with the sexy spy attitude added and a sleek costume showcasing her figure. What’s not to like?

While we’re on the topic, I’ll also note that Quicksilver has the same type of appearance as Medusa and Black Widow—showing up in Spider-Man to ‘stay on the radar’ for the readers. Only, Peitro & Wanda weren’t getting their own series (I’m never sure if this occurred right in the middle of the two Avengers / Magneto stories when Roy took over or not), and also, Quicksilver showed up smack dab in the middle of the Tablet Saga, so I always fit it into that. I really love the Tablet Saga, which isn’t so much a saga but a string of stories connected by the Tablet. It wasn’t perfect but had a lot of terrific sequences: some great campus drama (man, I hated Josh, Randy’s friend, when I was a kid), the Kingpin once more, Shocker, Man Mountain Marko (who I always have a fondness for), Silvermane (who was so awesome in his first story they should NEVER have brought him back) and then the Lizard. Plus all kinds of little things like Caesar Cicero, a spineless little gangster thrown in there.

The more we talk, the more I think I need a solid official reread of the entire Spider-Man run complete with in depth reviews of each issue (with a disclaimer that most will be positive).

Just look at that cover! That’s exactly the one I was talking about. By far the best Vermin cover of all time! How could you *not* buy that off the stands? I definitely here what you’re saying about Sal too—his art never really seemed to fit any mold, except, oddly enough, Walt’s Thor. When I look back at this era, of all the Spider-titles, Sal was Spectacular which I now like, ASM had either McFarlane (who I loved) or Larsen (who I liked but not quite as much) and then there was Web of Spider-Man, which because it had a more traditional look to it, feels slightly flatter to me now. It’s still fine, mind you, and I can’t complain, but its just not as dynamic.

Regarding DeMatteis, I agree whole-heartedly—he’s one of the great Spider-Man writers of all time, and I love when he returns to the character. He’s had several runs, and sometimes they are where you least expect them, like a fairly excellent post-Clone Saga run in the late 90’s. He even writes a story or two these days in the post-BND world. Of course, my favorite story of his will always be Kraven’s Last Hunt, which is perfection all around, and is actually my father’s single favorite post-Ditko Spider-Man story ever. It would make my best of list, should I ever make one (disclaimer: I never will ). What works with DeMatteis is his knack for delving into a character and really developing them in the fullest meaning of the world. He does that with villains, supporting cast, walk-on characters and even with Peter himself, which sometimes writers forget to do. While PAD has had some great stories on Spidey, I would not put him on the list of greatest Spidey writers ever; however, Stern and DeMatteis are certainly there, coming close to Stan. And really that’s high praise because for the most part, Spidey has had some terrific writers with some great runs: Bill Mantlo, David Michellenie, Gerry Conway, Marv Wolfman (to a much lesser extent) and others.

He’s also had some great writers give some pretty mediocre runs like Len Wein and Denny O’Neil but that’s neither here nor there. (Don’t get me started on John Byrne).

FYI, of the current Spidey writers, I do think Van Lente is showing he has a feel for Spidey in a similar way to these two. I’m not just saying that—I honestly think that. Joe Kelly also has a knack for writing Spidey, but he’s more on the quirky side of things. Those are the two best current Spidey writers besides of course, Roger Stern, who now is once more a guiding force on the title.

MARVEL TEAM-UP #14

Feast your eyes on several interior pages
by GIL KANE and WAYNE HOWARD!


Go to...

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/

Click "TITLES", "SUB-MARINER", "51-72", "MTU 14" and "INTERIORS".

"she was really outshined by the beautiful Wanda in her Avengers appearances"

No question. Natasha was fantastic in TALES OF SUSPENSE, but once she turned up in AVENGERS, nobody quite seemed to know what to do with her. If you check out "Hawkeyte The Marksman" in TOS #57, I'd swear she was inspired by Sophia Loren. (I finally figured this out watching one of her films on TCM, ARABESQUE.)


"the Kingpin once more"

What's crazy, in the usual film-making habit of "mix-and-match", a sequence from the 3rd Kingpin story-- where Spidey pursues him across town, then foils an ambush as he enters a darkened warehouse, turned up as part of the 2nd Kingpin cartoon, "THE BIG BRAINWASHER". That short 10-min. cartoon contained elements from the first 3 Kingpin storylines, all meshed together in one!

Wow, you've really done a lot for the site! I haven't checked it out in quite awhile (I used to look at it regularly years ago), so its great to see so much more beyond the Silver Age!

While Nick himself has a lot of earlier stuff, he specifically requested I NOT go "later". However, I am planning, eventually, to add any and all reprints of the 60's material I can find.


Nick set up the entire run of SGT. FURY, but this was (mostly) because the later part of the run was MOSTLY reprints! When I went at it the other month, Nick was still missing more than half of the SF covers! He couldn't believe I managed to post ALL of them in only 3 weeks. (Mind you, they were mostly very minor clean-ups of scans taken from the GDC... I've been going after higher quality in the updates I've been doing the last month or so. That's what's taking the GHOST RIDER section so long to get finished.)

The SUB-MARINER section was actually the first one I upgraded, back in Nov'08. I just re-formatted EVERY page of it the other week, so the design of the p[ages would match the rest of the site (link buttons, spaceing) and to give it a new color scheme. While I was at it, I finally got around to adding MTU #14. MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #2 was the first instance where I added a cover of a one series into the run of another one. (At the moment, those are the only 2 70's "team-up" issues at the entire site!)

In MTU #14, it kinda bugs me that Len Wein couldn't seem to make up his mind whether to call those critters "Aquanoids" or "Men-Fish". (Or could that be editorial tampering on Roy Thomas' part? They seemed to be doing a lot of monsters witrh the word "Man" in them right then-- Man-Wolf, Man-Thing, etc. I think Aquanoids sounds cooler...)

Honestly, if Van Lente was writing a Spidey title solo, I'd definitely give it a hard look. But the current style with rotating writers and artist and thrice-monthly publication earns Amazing a continual pass from me indefinitely. It's tempting to just pick up the issues written by the guys I like, but that's just too damn much work!

I'm kinda surprised and a little disappointed that you wouldn't rank PAD up there with DeMatteis and Stern. Maybe part of it's his disappointing and editorially-crippling run on Friendly Neighborhood? Though I haven't read any of those stories, I would give him a pass based on the crap he had to work with, especially that stunt with Peter's outing as Spider-man.

But if that isn't what's shading your opinion of PAD's work on Spidey, I'd certainly like to hear more. To me, PAD just absolutely NAILED Peter's character, voice and attitude in ways that very few writers have achieved and told some incredibly entertaining yarns in the process.