Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Spider-Man thread!

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it why I wouldn’t rank PAD up there, because of his Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man run. But you know, thinking about it further, you’re probably right that PAD was crippled by editorial involvement and the awful Civil War tie-in story to Peter’s life. Certainly I’ve come to realize JMS didn’t really intend for a lot of his stories to end up like they did so its only fair to assume the same happened to PAD.

So, let’s eliminate FNS from the equation, and focus on PPTSS, where PAD really got his start. And there, I absolutely love it! I really have no criticism for PAD’s run on Spectacular and instead see this as a high point in Spidey’s history, where Spectacular may have been the best Spider-Man book of them all.

Certainly, Death of Jean DeWolfe is the story everyone points to as the classic PAD story and with good reason. It’s one of the great Spider-Man stories of all time, and its chalk full of suspense and characterization, and then packs an emotional wallop. Captain DeWolfe’s death occurred at a time where death really still meant something and PAD’s heart-breaking delivery of it made it mean so much more.

PAD also introduced the Foreigner, an awesome villain for that era that wasn’t really a villain. A lesser-known PAD villain for Spidey was the Blaze, who went against him twice, that I think was a pretty great obscure bad guy. He definitely shouldn’t have passed into limbo. He also did a bunch of cool Sabertooth stories, including I think the one where the Black Cat kicks his ass?

Thinking back on PAD’s run, most of it didn’t really have many super-villains. Peter David has always excelled at making the scenarios more important than the villains and here we really see him do that. This was a great era of Spider-Man stories that were usually one-offs with no super-villains.

PAD always wrote a solid MJ in the year or two after we, the readers, learned she knew Pete was Spidey but they weren’t quite married yet. I think he was instrumental in getting the readers back on board with the MJ/Pete relationship. While DeFalco was obviously going there, PAD made it seem more seemless, as if these two long-time friends truly cared for one another beyond a friendship way despite having hesitations for revisiting it. And all of that was pretty subtle and gradual.

BTW, little known PAD fact: he created Joe’s wife, Amanda Robertson! Such an obvious idea but he was the one who did it.

All in all, PAD certainly has “Peter’s voice” down perfect, as you mention. He also had Mary Jane’s, Jonah’s and Robbie’s. My one complaint might be he didn’t really get into the other larger supporting cast but to be fair (A) ASM was already doing that and (B) if he’s getting Pete, MJ, JJJ and Robbie right *and* giving us excellent stories, I’m really starting to nitpick.

PAD also did the Sin-Eater sequel story a few years later with Electro in it, and I’ve always thought that was also a very good read. Not on par with the amazing Death of Jean DeWolfe but certainly worth buying and rereading. In a roundabout way, this connects our whole conversation on Spectacular Spider-Man as I think it was this story that was PAD’s last and Sal Buscema’s first, beginning his long run; and it also changed the title from “Peter Parker: the Spectacular Spider-Man” to the much more elegant “Spectacular Spider-Man”.

Upon further thought, I realize I may be unfair to PAD because I’m giving his FNS too much weight in my analysis. You may be right in that he deserves his ranking up there with Stern and DeMatteis. He is certainly one of the best. I also suspect he’ll eventually make his way back to writing Spider-Man, as he always seems to come around to him, just like many other former writers.

PS – thought I should mention I have a soft spot for the black costume and that’s largely because most of the black costume era stories were so solid, particularly PAD’s PPTSS and ASM under Stern and then DeFalco.

Yeah, I can’t fault you for that. For every great Spider-Man story so far there have been an equal number of mediocre ones, and a couple of real duds too.

I don't know all the details, but I feel like PAD probably didn't know the Peter being outed as Spidey development was coming when he took the job. I just don't see him returning to Peter knowing a cheap stunt was coming that would undermine everything Peter Parker stands for. Everything I've seen of his past work, PAD would get how wrong that would be and turn it down. (I think I read an interview that implied he didn't know, but don't quote me.)

I remember that he really wanted to delve into Peter's teaching job in the early interviews. I can see PAD getting into that a lot. But the unmasking definitely pulled the rug out from underneath that angle. I'd guess that when the unmasking was a foregone conclusion PAD probably decided to stick it out and make lemonade from the lemons he was given.

All this is assumption and conjecture on my part. Like I said, I haven't even read any Friendly Neighborhood other than the early issues tying in with "The Other". I never even finished that (admittedly horrible) arc because it coincided with a temporary break collecting monthly comics I took when I started having trouble with the internet subscription service I was using. Otherwise, I fully inended to pick up Friendly Neighborhood. But all the pub the unmasking got kept me from ever following up when I got back in because the idea turned me off so much.

So discounting that run, I'm glad you ultimately agree that PAD was worthy of being considered amongst the best Spidey writers. I bet if he could've had as much absolute control creatively as he did over the Hulk, he would have had a run compatible in length to that one. But with that many monthly books and rock-tight editorial control, that wasn't ever gonna happen.

Yeah, PAD had to deal with Peter having a new secret ID as a teacher after he'd been outed, and then he brought back Deb Whitman in a way I really disliked, and even used Flash in a way I found pretty distasteful too. Probably he had to try to make lemonade out of some serious lemons, but all it did was turn me off more. But really, that whole Civil War era of Spidey sucked so bad, I almost want to give everyone that wasn't an editor a pass because I bet they're all embarrassed they were involved.

Any further thoughts on Death of Jean DeWolfe and the sequel story with Sin-Eater? In an era where the Green Goblin is back, the Jackal came back for the Clone Saga and it feels like just about anyone can come back, I really like that Sin-Eater is a Spider-Man enemy that is largely left alone (or forgotten but thats okay). He's a great, great character.

That's one (or two) story(s) that I'll have to revisit someday. The details are a little fuzzy, but I remember what a gritty, involving story it was. I was only familiar with Jean as a bit player among the supporting cast, but PAD really made me feel her loss.

It was one of the very first PAD Spidey stories and was very counter to the more light-hearted, breezy stories that would typify what he's known for. Don't get me wrong, PAD would write more Spidey stories with serious subject matter than just this one, but this was the first and only with that gritty, Frank Miller-ish feel to it. I know the Rich Bucler art (it was him, right?) on that arc was evocative of Miller's stuff as well. It was moving, suspenseful and dense.

I think it's great that PAD didn't feel like he had to continue writing Spidey under that darker lens. So many witers get so shoe-horned into writing characters a certain way, and with all the acclaim and attention PAD got from that story, you couldn't have blamed him if he gave us more of the same. But he didn't and found a way instead of distilling Peter's essence in a way that only a few writers have over the decades.

In any case "The Death of Jean DeWolffe" would definitely make my list of the best Spidey stories/arcs I've ever read, if I was ever so inclined to do so...but I won't!

Rich Buckler is indeed the artist.

I agree that PAD did a great job doing a real serious story but then having the confidence to pull back so the title didn't get stuck in a repetitive overly dark tone.

I remember getting to know Jean DeWolfe via her appearances in PPTSS (and possibly ASM, I'd have to check). But I didn't realize she first debuted in Marvel Team-Up in a really big way, as a major character in perhaps the best MTU story of them all, the Wraith Saga with Iron Man (and Dr. Strange). I only read that a few years ago to see what a big splash she made.

In the early 80's, it was still easy for Marvel readers to keep track of all the great NYC cops that were a part of the heroes lives. There was Turk, Captain Jean DeWolfe, Blackbird and D.A. Tower--all four appeared in a few Marvel titles. Nowadays there are so many walk-ons that it's hard for someone to leave a mark.

Picking up a little on the latest Spider-Man comics:

I'm not quite sure where I left off so I'll just do the last few. Spider-Man is in the midst of the Gauntlet, where many of his classic foes are being 'revamped' in the sense that they are getting a fresh coat of paint and being re-established as the real threats they should be perceived as. It's all actually been quite respectful thus far (as it should be), and IMO a big success.

First, the Rhino stories by Joe Kelly (there were two and not in a row) were nothing short of extraordinary. Hands-down, these are the two best Rhino stories ever written, and Joe Kelly reminds again why he's has risen to the top of the web-heads as a master of Spider-Man. He's giving out Grade A+ work right now and his Spider-Man stories are something to look forward to. His humor isn't forced and just works, his stories are poignant and really evoke a strong sense of emotion and he's created such a great character in Norah.

Up next has been the Zeb Wells & Chris Bachalo story 'Shed' in which the Lizard is taken to the next level--and this story is downright scary! Wells has been one of the weaker web-heads in IMO and Bachalo's art has never been my favorite, yet this story really is a fantastic job by both of them, and is full of tension and horror in a way the Lizard hasn't been since probably ASM #6. The Lizard has been one of my favorite Spider-Man villains and Curt Conners has been one of my favorite supporting cast members over the years; here, this is a big time game-changer.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">No Lizard story will ever be the same. Billy Conners is killed by the Lizard.</span></span>

It's a tough line to walk for a writer, but I think they pulled it off because of the strength of the writing. Absolutely, Curt Conners can't be the same after this--but I'm interested in what the web-heads come up with, since I've felt that way a few times in recent years (Flash, JJJ) and they've shown me just when you think a character's story is over, there is a whole other era about to begin.

Last, I've been enjoying the hell out of the Peter Parker series, which are the reprints of the online web-comic by Bob Gale and Pat Olliffe. Gale also was one of the 'weaker' Spider-Man writers IMO but not anymore--he's showing he has the chops to provide well-written, heavy characterization inspired stories that are both fun and interesting. Olliffe's art is terrific, as anyone who loved Untold Tales of Spider-Man will recall, and he's only gotten better with age. He knows how to draw Spidey in that quirky style reminiscent of Ditko, where his poses should look weird but yet look very fluid and pretty. I absolutely recommend Peter Parker to anyone who is looking for a fun Spider-Man story!

So, all in all, lately the Spider-Man stories have all been quite good!

I read the Annual. Liked it, but then again...both stories are set way back in time at the beginning of his career.

I heard about the spoiler above...makes me glad I don't read the series anymore.

Over at Kirby-L, a topic named "drug talk?" cropped up. Mention was made of GREEN LANTERN and Spidey. My response... (once more down bad memory lane... heeheehee)


"But O'Neil's had better art!"


Debateable.


How many here in the last few months have badmouthed Neal Adams?


By comparison, do you know how much I tend to HATE Gil Kane's work? (I have an improved admiration for some of it, but he'll never be on my top 50 artists lists).


As for "story"... John, or Gil, or both (most likely) turned MJ into a TOTAL BITCH, in order to throw it right in Harry 's face that she was not "his" girl, and she was getting fed up with his possessive attitude. Because, I suspect, deep down, she NEVER got over he major thing for Peter, who was all serious and hung up over that REAL bitch, Gwen, who seemed to cause Pete nothing but hell from the day they met (typical American romance). Anybody with ANY brains could have seen that Harry & Gwen belonged together... anyone but STAN "God Almighty" Lee, who INSISTED Pete be with the BLONDE (since, after all, Stan MARRIED one).


So Harry, frustrated, takes REALLY bad advice from some scuzbucket pushing drugs-- "Hey, man, these'll make your problems go away". Harry flips out... NORMAN flips out. Now Pete's got REAL problems. And there was NO NEED for the G**D*** Goblin to ever, ever come back... but that's STAN for you.


The guy on the rooftop was just a sideshow.


Seriously, the whole damn series WENT TO HELL the minute they killed Gwen's Dad. She may have been (mostly) a waste of time, but HE was a really cool character who deserved better-- DAMMIT.


Henry

This is what I get for looking at all these Dan DeCarlo & Stan Goldberg comics
this past week or so...


I was sitting at work today when it suddenly occured to me... Stan Lee, when he
was (AHEM!) "writing" AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, must have CONFUSED the personalities
of Gwen & MJ with-- NOT Veronica & Betty, but Millie & Chili! (Gwen & Millie,
both blondes, MJ & Chili, both redheads)


Stan, not being the actual plotter of the stories (except for after-the-fact,
natch), seemed oblivious that GWEN was the "stuck-up self-centered girl" from
the good family, while MJ was the "nice girl from next door".


I mean, GEEZ-- anybopdy who actually read the last year of Steve Ditko's run
would NEVER have mistaken Gwen for anything else! (I guess Stan's memory MUST be
virtually non-existent, he doesn't even remember what he worked on himself!)


Henry

^Always interested in hearing your opinions Prof on Spider-Man's past since you have a unique viewpoint (being an artist yourself; collecting them closer to when they actually came out).

I'm absolutely going to check out the Milli & Chilli comparison. I suspect that's the case. In the 1970's, it's hilarious how many Marvel romance comics have characters that look totally like Pete & MJ or Pete & Gwen.

I also liked the annual quite a bit. First and foremost is the gorgeous cover by Marcos Martin, who has quickly become one of my favorite artists based on his Spider-Man work within the last two years (just like Javier Rodriguez). I like these two guy's art so much, I would probably buy anything they did.

I liked the Cap/Spidey first team-up story and it's a great idea for a story that fits right into continuity. The ending was especially nice with (A) Peter not wanting to hurt Cap in the public's eye, (B) Peter knowing at least someone believes in Spidey and that's enough and (C) Cap realizing via Spidey's plight that there are other misunderstood heroes out there which he could help, leading to Hawkeye, Wanda & Pietro and of course a plethora of others. The story itself wasn't anything spectacular but it was fun.

The back-up 'Untold Tale of Spider-Man' was a treat since I would consider that series one of my 'beloved' series of all time. I wish it had a bit more to it than a love letter to Stan and Marvel Comics (since I feel this is done so often now its unnecessary; that type of story also is more like DC Comics in the 1950's in Strange Adventures with John Broome & Julie Schwartz breaking the 4th wall than the early Silver Age Marvel (which also had Stan & Jack show-up, but never anyone in Spidey per Ditko's firm tastes). Still, if half of the comics I bought had the sense of fun that this story had, I'd be a happy camper.

BTW, Pat Olife is the artist on the Peter Parker series with Bob Gale that I’ve mentioned a few times in recent Spider-Man discussions. It reads very much like UToS in the ‘spirit’ of the series sense (more focus on heroism & fun).

Black Cat miniseries review up here--so good it deserved to be in the "Any Recommendations?" thread!

So... bad news , Cobie?

Getting my 2 year old to write it would be better than Joey Q's explanation for why they didn't end up getting married...and the whisper was sooo anticlimactic it's really sad.

Sooo glad I gave up on this years ago. Don't even get me started on Spidey ripping part of someone's face off during the Kraven thing.

Thank God for reviews so I can feel justified in saying that Marvel has destroyed the present day Spider-Man. Thank God for the old stuff.

^I'm really behind on Spidey so I stopped reading Dev's post after a mention of the last few stories.

But I did see your link Lardy. (FYI, I have read absolutely no news from Comic Con all weekend and checking the websites seems overwhelming at this point--I had a long weekend of debauchery. )

My reaction? SUCKS. Slott makes me grown, Ramos' art is one of the only artists in comics I can't stand. At least Marcos Martin is still around. Hobgoblin is my favorite but I actually am worried because Slott is writing him.

My question is what about Van Lente, Joe Kelly and Zeb Wells. You know, the guys who wrote the good Spider-stories? Is there now going to be another monthly Spider-title? I figure there must be, since Marvel isn't the kind of company to miss an opportunity to bleed fans dry. I'd welcome another Slott-less Spider title myself.

Ugh. Not a good way to start my Comic Con news. What's next--Dan Didio is writing another DC book?

Something else else interesting about all the Spider-inteviews and news is Waid himself admits that the story he wrote where Pete screws up photography career was a big blunder on his part (Waid's part). I lambasted him earlier in this thread for that. Glad to hear him apologize to me directly (and the rest of the world too, I assume ).

EDIT: as I'm reading the Slott interview, some of what he says sounds very right to me. He's keeping Spidey's large cast while giving Peter a job and interesting new cast members. That's all good. Of course, we'll see how that is executed.

I'm catching up on some Spider-Man reading:

I read the fourth issue of Peter Parker, which completes the first story-arc and it left me with a huge smile on my face. What a terrific job Bob Gale and Pat Oliffe did on this series! This is the biggest and best secret in Spider-town. I know it started as a web-comic and then was reprinted, but it was worth every penny. It was light-hearted, but not too much, and it chalk-full of character moments on every page. As long as they keep publishing these, I'll keep buying them.

I also caught up on the Grim Hunt storyline, by Joe Kelly, who is normally my favorite of the Webheads. I'm at odds with myself because at the same time, I loved it because it was just so damn well done and well-written, but on the other hand, I actually really dislike the outcome of the story. I did like how each issue was jam-packed and it was really cool to see within the same story various Spider-Woman such as Arana, Mattie Franklin, Julia Carpenter and Madame Web, Kaine from the clone saga, which blows my mind that we're seeing him, Ezekial from JMS's run, which is also a shocker, the entire Kravinoff clan from over the years, and also Mysterio, the Chameleon, Electro and other villains. There was quite a bit jammed into this.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Oh, and just if your curious, one of those people I mention above is the Chameleon in a really awesome twist.</span></span>

It was a very dark story. The back-up was by J.M. Dematteis, which tells me he approves of it, so that was nice. The back-up itself was only 'okay', revealing a Kraven/Kaine untold story that was more cool to see them battling one another than the story was good. It further heightens the 'hunter vs. spyder' theme going on and naturally sets up a future story when the epilogue of the Grim Hunt was revealed.

What I didn't like:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Come on, you had to bring back Kraven the Hunter from the dead? One of the all-time best deaths in comics as the ending to one of the all-time best Spider-Man stories...it should not have been touched. I'm a bit dissapointed that Kraven is back.

However, I will admit, his return was done well in that he is written pretty damn good: he is as torn as he ever was, and he's as badass as ever. I was really glad to see him kill-off his wife & Vladmir at the end, and am kind of hoping Aloysha gets it next. The idea of a 'clan of Kravens' is cool for one story; now I don't want to see it repeated ever again.

Does Kraven coming back from the dead really bother me all that much? Not really. Not like Aunt May, for instance, or Norman Osborn. But I wish they hadn't.</span></span>

So I guess Arana leaves this story all set to star in a Spider-Girl series. I've never really felt the need to buy Spider-Man spin-offs that don't star Peter unless I love the creative team, so I guess I'll see who it is. The character is a blank slate to me.

The next story up is "One Moment in Time" which I assume is controversial.

Here's a review a friend of mine did of the issue. He said he went easy on it : http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1534465

I'm not reading it yet until I read the issues, but I love me a RIPPING review, so I'm actually looking forward to it.

As I catch up on the Spider-Man comics, next up is Web of Spider-Man which is a Spidey anthology comic that I’ve enjoyed immensely. I know its ending and that’s too bad as this has been a high point of this era to get an extra dose of short Spider-Man stories that for most part have all been great and often times excellent.

A large part of that is Fred Van Lente, who I feel is an upcoming comics genius and the best writer of Spider-Man since Roger Stern and JM DeMatteis and hopefully will have future opportunities to prove it. In his story that was a 3-parter over the last 3 issues of Web, he provides a solid Spider-Man story that reminds me how to do exactly that. He introduces an original and interesting new villain, the Extremist, to provide a very real threat to Spidey, while at the same time using the story within to showcase several people in the supporting cast, including Flash Thompson, Michelle and of course, Jonah Jameson. The story was perfect in providing some insight into what makes Peter so heroic while also being tension-filled and interesting. I’d actually like to see the Extremist again, though given the ending, I’m not sure if that’s possible. Van Lente also does a great job at having Jonah as Mayor be so much fun. And lastly, he brought in some many tidbits of Spidey lore, including one of Spidey’s little used devices, which he used way back in ASM #2.

What I also liked about this lead story is the artwork, which oddly encompassed three different artists. Pat Oliffe provides yet another stunning job, and one of my personal faves, Javier Rodriguez provides some amazing art as usual. The third artist is one I don’t recognize but now kind of like, Nick Dragotta. I hope to see him on more Spider-Man stories, as he provided the quirky, dynamic look and feel that fits Spidey so well. While there is an obvious similarity to the Marcos Martin / Javier Rodriguez school, there are some very clear influences at work here as well: his Spider-Man looks like John Romita Sr. in a big way; his Cyclops (in a quick cameo) is a dead-ringer for John Byrne’s Cyclops (I almost wondered if Byrne drew him into the panel!) and then I noticed in the final part of the story that his action scenes with Spidey looked quite a lot like classic Spidey artist Ross Andru! Very cool mix of influences.

Also running through Web if a back-up story featuring Jackpot the super heroine who first showed up in BND to trick readers into thinking she was MJ. I liked the idea of Jackpot during her appearances in ASM and actually liked the revelation of who she was and her exit from the scene. Since then, she reappeared with her own miniseries by creator Marc Guggenheim; I didn’t buy it though, as like I said before, I don’t buy Spidey spin-offs without Peter unless I think the creative team is outstanding or I’m really interested. I’ve simply been burnt too many times (I’m looking at you Nightwatch). My thoughts on this back-up are: “it’s okay”. It’s not bad but its nothing to write home to Mom about. Guggenhein doesn’t really give me a sense of who Jackpot is rather than she is someone who doesn’t really know what they are doing. I like seeing obscure Spider-Man villain White Dragon (with new name for no reason) as well as newer villain Mr. Negative and mainstay Boomerang. However, none are really used all that greatly yet. I also understand yet another person calling himself the Rose was responsible for Jackpot’s husbands death (via Boomerang) and that kind of makes me shrug as there wasn’t a need for yet another Rose, whose history is already over-complicated. I hate that kind of thing in comic books (I all the over-complicating of people becoming the second or third of some costumed identity, or even worse, switching for no reason, the “Fabian Nicieza Syndrome” ).

Another thing I forgot to mention is how much I’m enjoying the Stan Lee / Marcos Martin two-page back-ups in ASM these days, called Spidey Sunday Funnies or some such title. While I enjoy some Stan dialogue, I often get a little annoyed at his Funky Flashman-type personality traits. In other words, I respect Stan, though I’m still mad for the artist who never got credit while he soaked it all up, so on any given day I may not enjoy his involvement. But that’s all besides the point because every issue has two pages of Marcos Martin providing incredible layouts and amazing depictions that make me drool. He’s the closest thing right now at Marvel like Darwyn Cooke and I just love everything he does.

Okay, on to One Moment in Time, of which I only have the first issue. All I can say is: I’m having absolutely no fun in reading it. And that is never a good thing. The entire mess of One More Day had been completely erased from my mind by this point (I know not the same with others) but this story only brings back all that. This story obviously is only going to serve the purpose of explaining what happened at specific points in Peter’s history which naturally infers it will not address many other tidbits; so why even bother? Any attempt at explaining away the timeline is the same as DC’s attempts post-Crisis and destined to fail. It will never be good enough—and with this first issue, it clearly isn’t. The hooky, Peter missed the ceremony bit is as unoriginal as it gets in Spider-Man’s history.

I’m not sure what to expect in terms of Mephisto—if they’ll ever explain that at all. And how could they? The only way to help gain points is to make sure neither MJ nor Peter made a deal with the devil. So how then did this new status quo happen? Do I even care?

The only plus for me was the art by Paulo Rivera, whom I like. I used to like Joe Q’s art back on Daredevil but to be honest, I haven’t enjoyed it in years. He’s all style with little substance.

OMIT will get ripped apart I suspect by fans, and with good reason. 'Boot, I'll be checking out that link in a few seconds (and on an unrelated note, get to your PM too!)

From the link Reboot posted: "It doesn’t read like Quesada is trying to tell a decent story, it reads purely like he’s trying to get this out of the way so that he won’t have to answer questions about it any more, which is just not satisfactory at all."

That's actually the best way to put it I think.

Cobie...you're telling me that you're good with what Spidey did at the end of the Kraven story?

Which part do you mean, Dev?

Joe Kelly went to great pains to showcase that Peter will not kill his enemies, which seperates him from Kraven, and also Kaine.

(I've read about 10 Spider-Man comics in 2 days...coupled with a stressful workplace and baby...so forgive me, I think my legendary memory might be fading on the short term )

I thought Fabian Niceza syndrome was, as Paul O'Brien once put it:

Yup, he does that too!