Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Spider-Man thread!

Yeah, I agree. I remain optimistic b/c I think Spidey lends himself so well to the medium. I also was very enthusiastic about JMS initial run of stories. They truly felt like this would be a great new era.

Then there were a bunch of boring/going nowhere sotries, focusing on the magic side of the MU (which doesn't fit Spidey no matter how you cut it). Around the time of the Gwen/Norman story it got really awful and has only gotten steadily worse.

Nice to see this thread resurface! Maybe I missed it, but have you gotten to the whole "I need four new identities for some contrived reason as a way to spawn a spin-off series that's barely tangentially connected to Spider-Man!" (re:Slingers)? While I really liked that series, it was doomed from the start with that ill-conceived four-separate #1's nonsense (talk about pushy).

So what's Puma doing over in "Sensational"? He hasn't undergone some kind of revamp has he?

Hm...upon a re-check, I left off just at Larson's run on Amazing. The 'four identities instead of one' thing is still about ten years later in the 90's...I'll have to revisit the reviews soon

But currently, Puma and the Black Cat are helping out in Sensational. They have a little fling together going on, and both are more along the lines of 'good guys that pinch in to help Spidey'. I'd say Puma is being written in character, but we aren't seeing much in regards to Thomas Fireheart, just what he's been up to when he's transformed into Puma and hooking up with the Black Cat. Its obvious he's only helping Spidey b/c the Black Cat keeps helping him and getting herself into awkward situations. Thankfully no revamp here (yet at least).

Prof--I'm behind on your cartoon reviews (and just about all Gym'lls threads these days), but keep 'em coming!

Amazing to be the Loan Spidey comic! Coming out three times a month! Interesting news, though an obvious marketing ploy. I've never *not* collected all the Spidey titles, so it doesn't effect me, but we'll see what this means story wise. The article got boring after awhile, so I'm not exactly sure how the creative teams will work

<----------Attention Deficit on Fridays Cobie

Loan? What, you can only borrow rather than buy?

And, hey, you never posted your thoughts on the Sensational Annual for all to see

Thanks for the reminder!

Per a PM to Reboot (hope you don't mind 'Boot!)
Re: Sensation Spider-Man Annual.

You were right. It was really great. A great, great Peter and Mary Jane tale after quite awhile.

Funny thing was, I could name you those issues they were references (probably be off by an issue or two, since you know I don’t check that stuff ). Issue #59 or so is with Gwen and MJ dancing. But Spider-Man #88 is when he walks into the party and says he’s Spider-Man. Issue #143 is when he’s at the airport on the way to France (to fight Cyclone) and finally kisses Mary Jane.

It was good to see Mary Jane again. And I don’t mean 1960’s party-girl Mary Jane, but the Mary Jane after all these years. Thanks for pointing this out to me ‘Boot'.

...you know, it really was a great issue. With time for comics becoming less and less these days for me, it was a treat to read an issue with Pete and MJ written...well, *in character*. I hope to see more of it. I guess we'll know soon enough though, eh? (Slightly worried/slightly unable to muster emotion in this era of non-stop comics change).

I tend to prefer MJ before Gerry Conway made her morose, and Len Wein turned her into a whining, clinging, complaining, possessive, "typical" girlfriend.

The All Spider-Man San Diego Comic Con Panel

Round Table Discussion with 8 new creators

Dan Slott, Steve McNiven, Dexter Vines and Morry Hollowell
Marc Guggenheim, Salvador Larrocca and Jason Keith
Bob Gale, Phil Jimenez, Andy Lanning and Jeromy Cox
Zeb Wells, Chris Bachalo, Tim Townshend and Antonio Fabela

So, Dan Slott?!

McNiven, Larocca, Jimenez and Bachalo?!!!

*ONE* title, as Amazing, shipping multiple times a month?!!!

New stories, new ideas, new villains and a focus on Peter's supporting cast, something that has been lacking for *years*?!!!!

Well, I'm pretty damn excited! This could end up being the best time to be a Spider-Man fan in years--nay, decades! I've got to say, I like where Marvel is going with this.

Though I've said that marrying Peter was a mistake, I've said multiple times that I'm cool with whatever happens to the marriage either way (whether it stays or goes--I'll still be there after anyway afterall). So that's hardly the most important thing on my mind. What I like is the consolidation of the titles, the quality of the creators and what I'm hearing so far.

I'm very, very excited about all of this.

Slott [have I mentioned I don't like him? Pretty sure I have, but just in case] made reference to "the...can't get a date...Spider-Man" @ Newsarama. They're "Scarlet Witching" it. [BTW, the "thrice monthly"ness was confirmed a month back]

Between Slott, Bachalo and this, my interest just hit Zero.

Really? I've been very impressed with Slott so far--I definately like him a lot. I never read that FCD Spidey story you mentioned to me though (which I recall you didn't like).

Did you know who Bill Mantlo intended Carrion to be?

And we have THAT ASM writer and THAT editor to thank for the eventual Clone Saga Tom DeFalco "gifted" us with. Who were in those spots then, Des?

Regardless, fascinating stuff in this Mantlo Tribute book. There are two sections devoted to his runs on PPTSS, as well as MTU and various Hulk/Spidey team-ups. Spider-fans should order it-- see my Mantlo thread for how-- for the Spidey stuff alone.

Wow Bri, thanks for the input! I never heard of that before. Its funny how little I really know about behind the scenes stuff for my favorite comics. Sounds like the Mantlo tribute book would be up my alley. He was one of my favorite Spidey writers ever.

I actually probably like the reveal the way it ended up, probably because it’s the only way I’ve known it for so many years. And the Jackal has always been on of my fave Spidey villains, even before the clone saga blew a young Cobie’s mind.

One day I’ll do a full review of the Clone Saga. It gets such a bad wrap, but I have to say, within it are moments of brilliance. At least the beginning and some of the many endings (tongue planted firmly in cheek). But so much of the middle was rough on the readers.

Carrion (the original) remains one of my favorite Spidey villains too. I find it fascinating that Mantlo intended it to be the Peter clone. Because yes…that makes *so* much more sense!!

I'm not sure (my indexes need updating), but ti looks like the Carrion story came out in 1979, and Marv Wolfman was both writer & editor of ASM in '79. So, we probably have Marv to "thank" for derailing Bill Mantlo's ending.

In the then-heiracrhy of Marvel writers, Mantlo always seemed to be considered 2nd or 3rd level. I'll never forget how he did many fill-ins on IRON MAN, before finally taking over the book after so many others dropped off. Took him a while to get up to speed, but just as it was REALLY getting good-- he got KICKED OFF because David Michelinie & Bob Layton, who'd just come over from DC, wanted the book. I know they did good work-- but I've always thought they way they got the book really stunk.

Thanks for the info, prof.

Marv was his own editor? I know that was fairly common in the 70's. But the quote from Tony Isabella sounds like he was refering to two individuals; who was editor-in-CHIEF at that time?

I think that was before Shooter's time as EiC...

Cobie's Spidey Round-up! Well, with One More Day on the horizon and huge changes to come, I'll wrap up my reviews of what I'd say is one of the most controversial times in Spidey's history--filled with both stories I'd consider pure crap, and others that surprisingly impressed me.

PAD's FNSM - despite moving on, PAD did what he always does and provided us Spidey fans with a really great final issue to his run, which lasted an impressive two years. I think all in all, PAD did something very subtly these last two years. While Marvel made Spidey an Avenger, revealed his identity to the world and caused internet controversy about his marriage to MJ, PAD gave real Spider-Man fans a few little gifts that I wish I could thank him for. He restored Betty Brant and Flash Thompson to the Spidey-mythos. He used the Civil War stuff to his advantage to update Debra Whitman. And now, his latest issue, is pure J. Jonah Jameson and Joe Robertson, who longtime Legion Worlders will know are two of my favorite characters in all of comics (JJJ is perhaps the greatest supporting character of all time IMO). And what a great issue it was. PAD seems to get Jonah completely—in that, not only does he understand the motivation of the character as he was created, but he also understands that Jonah has 40+ years of history and character progression and has shown to be a pretty strong character in regards to morals, standing up for what he believes in, and standing by people he admires, such as Robbie.

Eliminating the Daily Bugle from Spidey’s comics was a very, very stupid move. There are ways to have it be a major part without making Peter a freelance photographer. PAD got that, and gave it to us. Thanks for a great run (as always) PAD!

Meanwhile, in JMS’s Amazing Spider-Man, which I can accurately describe as ‘Started out as amazing as the title implies, but quickly turned into a long series of crappy shock value stories, long winded plots and mis-characterization’, I was kind of shocked by his final story. Shocked in how good it was. I guess its fitting that I enjoyed JMS final story almost as much as I enjoyed his first, after living through a pretty crappy middle. But he did a good job with Pete and MJ and he obviously gets the Kingpin very well. While many times his pacing seems slow and long, it actually felt spot on here. Can’t say I’m sorry to see him go. But I do acknowledge that JMS is a pretty good writer—I just want him away from my favorite comics character ASAP. The art has been nothing short of amazing, however.

In Sensational, I have to say, I sometimes can barely make it through an issue. There have been good points (the annual, the Black Cat/Puma subplot), but overall, its kind of dragged lately. The Venom story-arc was not bad, but it wasn’t exactly great.

And so ends yet another era of Spidey’s history. I’ve stated quite vehemently that the marriage was a bad idea. But I don’t want anyone to mistake that notion for me being ‘pro-erasing the marriage from continuity’. I know from DC experience that those decisions never, ever work to the character’s benefit. But Marvel’s caught in a conundrum. Whatever they do, no matter how many fans they anger, I’ll of course stick by Spidey, because that’s where my loyalty lies. But unlike the Legion’s colorful history, Marvel needs to make a final decision and then move the hell on with it—so I can get my head around whatever the hell they’re planning and start enjoying Spider-Man comics again, which I have not for quite a long time (USM not counting). All in all, I’ve read through the Spider-Mobile, the killing of almost 85% of Spidey’s cast, the Clone Saga, the John Byrne Aunt May Reboot and tons of other controversial (and sometimes outright awful) eras. I can live with this. I’ve been more loyal to Peter Parker than any writer, artist, comic book company or fanbase than anything else since I started reading comics on a regular basis at age 11, which happened to be Amazing Fantasy #15 – Amazing Spider-Man #289, in my basement with my Dad. I’ll, of course, maintain that loyalty. Though I hardly expect others to do so.

What is the problem with just killing of MJ? I know there is confirmation out there of "erasing" Peter's time with her but why go that route? That's like the stupid House of M and its consequences. Can't anyone at Marvel just come up with a decent story to end the marriage instead of getting rid of it from the collective MU memory?

I don't get the uproar over how no one can get into the Legion because of their history when you look back at Spidey's history or even that of the X-Men. Both are much more confusing and make it hard just to pick up any of the titles, beyond the once promising Ultimate Universe books.

I think Joey Q was the worst thing to happen to Marvel.

They did kill her off (well, Byrne did). And then they brought her back under Joe Q's reign.

Basically, Q's argument is that a married, divorced, OR widowed Peter "ages" him.

Oh, and "Scarlet Witching" it, as I put it to Cobalt, = Teh Crap...

[PS: Byrne thought about doing basically exactly this himself. And *he* pulled back as he thought it went to far. Mr "Chapter One"...]

Ages him? Are we supposed to believe that he's still in high school? College? The last time I really paid attention he was a teacher and I thought that was perfect for him. The MU can be updated but the heroes can't age. I know, a problem with all comics. But fixing it mid-stream without a full reboot is plain dumb.

And sorry if this offends but he's supposed to chose the life of his Aunt over his life with MJ? May is well past her expiration, not that she's not a great old bird. But, no. I don't believe it. May has lived a long and very eventful life and now gets to still be a plot line to be mis-used in favor of MJ no longer figuring into Peter's life.

Basically, it seems like they're doing it as a super-mindwipe, ala Flash #200 (no, I didn't like that either...), rather than a retcon per se. So if you time-travel to pre-OMD, you'll find a married Peter regardless of what any flashbacks say happened, rather than an altered timeline ala Crisis.

Actually, if Dan Slott's "Jackpot" thing is what it seems to be, it's worse than that...

Sorry to change the topic, but what's the story with "One More Day"? I read that Peter's going to have to choose between Aunt May's life and his marriage never having existed?? Did I read that right? How is that even supposed to be an option? if this is the case, it sounds more lame-brained than the whole clone thing...

It is.

I'm about three weeks behind in my comic shopping, so I've only read part 1, but that issue was typical JMS padding-nothing happening stuff. Basically, Peter is upset because Aunt May is in a hospital bed and he's on the run. A wasted issue.

Reboot could probably tell us more about OMD is supposed to accomplish. My expectations are very low for it. Whatever the end result is, the actual execution of the storyline appears to be very lame indeed.

Seminal Spidey artist John Romita, Sr.'s most recent interview .

Cool fact about the Romitas.

Young John Jr. created his own villain to fight Spidey at the tender age of around 6-9 or so. John Sr. was the 'man' at that point in Spidey's history, having done about 45 issues or so at that point, and decided to humor his son, and do some minor tweaking (not much apparently), and then use the character in a Spidey story.

That character was the Prowler. John Rominta Jr.'s first contribution to the Spidey-mythos, and one of my all-time favorite comics characters.

Cobie = big, big, big fan of both Romitas, especially on Spidey and Daredevil. John Sr.'s Gwen, of course, was my first real crush, both fictional and non-fictional

BTW, I recently reread ASM #90 - 149 (ending with the finale of the Jackal/Clone Saga--the first one). Man, I love those issues. Really just love them...and still get choked up after Gwen's death fifteen years after I first read it.

One day I may return to doing some reviews on Spidy's past and give you my surprising analysis of it. For example the Clone Sage...actually pretty damn awesome. Followed by: John Byrne and the Gathering of the Five...the downfall of Spidey (or) how Spidey became confusing like the Legion and X-Men. Finished by...JMS's Spidey...screw the characters and fans, lets shock someone.