Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Spider-Man thread!

Note- by page 2, I start posting very long reviews on Spider-Man’s various series over the years. Please don’t let that hinder any discussion, as that is not what this thread is about. I hope no one minds that I post them, since I love talking about Spidey so much.-- thanks, Cobalt

As I've said before, Spider-Man is my other huge love in comics besides the Legion. My father and I own all of his appearances, and I've read them all at least five times over--I used to read the entire run of Spider-man every summer from age 11 to 16 in chronilogical order from Amazing Fantasy #15 to the current issue.

I consider myself more knowledgable about Spider-man than any other thing in comics, and can answer any question people have!

A few things to get the topic started: I totally prefer Gwen Stacey to any of Spidey's loves, including Mary Jane. I love Doc Ock and the classic villians, but the Hobgoblin is my favorite villian of all time. I wish Marvel would consider long-time fans and continuity and show obscure Spider-man supporting cast members and villians like Dr. Jonas Harrow and Sha Shan.

Anyone else absolutely love Spidey?

Oh, and for the sake of writing about Spidey, I plan to give reviews of every era of Spider-man on the nights that I get bored

CK - Spider-man was surely my first favorite superhero. I still remember buying Spidey Super Stories when I was little. I don't really follow the title now (I only keep up with the Legion unfortunately) but I always liked that Peter has been allowed to "grow up" more than most other heroes. I hated that Marvel made him split up with MJ for a while there although I guess he is "the hero who could be you" and a rocky marriage is in keeping with Peter's luck over the years.

Did you like the movie? I thought it was really good and can't wait for the sequel to open.

I very much like the motivation behind Spider-man... "With great power comes great responsibility."

I'm pretty much a fan of all the animated versions and I came pretty late (1998) to the comics "game" so I don't think I'll be going back and getting all the Spidey AR appearances.

I am very much into the Ultimate Spider-man... along with Legion it is my only "must" have title. Everything else can wait.

I wasn't too happy about the Ultimate Six trade that just came out... it just seemed that the story was all set up and no pay off. It needed more Spidey in it too. At the very least it should have had more Ultimates in it. That's saying alot because I don't get why everybody else is fawning over The Ultimates. It just wasn't all that good.

Anyway... I like Spidey too. :spider-man:

BRING BACK BEN REILLY!!! :Spider-man2:

And here I thought I was stirring the pot by saying how much I liked Ultimate Spidey... and Povins out does me with a clone remark.

Nice.

I loved the movie the first time I saw it. After watching it a couple of times it really has a few, what I call, "SeeThreepio" minutes. These are the times when the movie just makes you shake your head in shame at how awful the moment really is. You know like when Threepio is saying, "I've fallen and I can't get up." Just plain horrible.

The Spider-man movie hit me like that when the Goblin knocks Spider-man out just so that he can try and talk him into joining his side. Sorry I ain't buying that one. I also hate it when the New Yorkers on the bridge say, "You mess with one of us, you're messing with all of us." Just too hokey. Other than that the movie is faithful to what I know to be Spider-man.

I've also got my two cents on the Clone Saga too, that I'll get to one day !

I liked the movie a lot, it was kind of like seeing my favorite super-hero and childhood "friend" finally get his due. It made me feel like a little kid, and was exactly as I would have wanted to see it done (with the one exception of the Goblin's costume).

Peter, Harry and MJ were great in it, and the ending with Pete and MJ was perfect.

And I really like Ultimate Spider-man too.

Some threads don't get no respect *sigh*

{/RodneyDangerfield OFF}

I totally agree about those two moments. I also didn't really buy that Gobie blew a hole in Peter's house, scared Aunt May and ... what? Just flew away? There was no reason he didn't just kill her. I thought the Willem Dafoe mirror scene was a tad hokey too.

I liked the first movie a lot, but it actually faltered for me once he put the costume on. The retelling of the origin was great stuff, but the second half of the movie seemed to lack a story -- mostly because the Green Goblin didn't really have much motivation after he killed those Oscorp guys (hence the "join me" rooftop scene). The effects were amazing (spectacular even) though.

Regarding the Spider-Man comics...
I've been an on again/off again fan of the character for as long as I can remember. Which isn't to say my affection waxes and waynes, I mostly wait til there's a good creative team that piques my interest (Iron Man is like that for me too btw).

I loved the Romita run back in the day. Spidey's epic struggle with the Juggernaut is one of my fav Spidey stories of all time (the thematic followup drawn by Frenz (I forgot who wrote it) where Spidey battles Firelord was less impressive though).

I also really liked the book when he got the symbiote costume and like most fans, I thought MacFarlane was the bomb when he first came on the scene (I had lost interest by the time he started his adjectiveless title).

I loved the first Hobgoblin storyline, but in retrospect he wasn't that interesting a character on his own. I think it was the mystery that was the most intriguing part. Still, he deserved a much better death. Who's the current Hobgoblin?

I don't remember much about Gwen Stacy, but I'm curious -- how long was she actually around? Did she start out as Peter's girl from the get go or was their hookup a long process?

Ultimate Spider-Man is excellent. Good for kids and adults, I say. (Wish there were more like that.) Get these into the hands of kids you know!

The early Spider-Man stuff...love it. And the covers!

The New Yorker's bridge comment was a Post Nine Eleven moment, probably added late in the movie's production. With three thousand dead in that city, I gave it a pass, however strained it may have been.

I have comments and answers to everyone, but dammit, I have work now ! And reviews on every Spider-man era, creative team and issue ever !

But I will say that I agree with Teeds! Get USM in the hands of every kid/early teen you know! An excellent comic for all ages.

Aw hell: Gwen Stacey was around from #31 to #122, and was a character that anyone could fall in love with! More on her later...

Ultimate Spider-Man is probably the best comic book out there right now that is for all ages. While I wouldn't reccomend Ultimates or Ultimate X-Men to a young kid, I'd definately give USM (or Ultimate FF) to a pre-teen. The stories are fun and charming, and Peter, MJ and Gwen are beyond likable. The title is so refreshing, I just can't get enough of it. And Bagley is doing the best artwork in his carreer.

I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's consistently fun and good, and can be really Amazing sometimes.

Personally I think Spider-Girl is the best comic for all ages.

Don't diss the Spider-Man movie. It was my 1st team-up with him.

The Amazing Spider-Man: the Ditko era Part I (AF #15 to #ASM 18)

Undoubtedly, these are some of the best stories ever written in the comic book artform. There isn't much I can add to what's been said over the years: Great concept, great motivation ("with great power..."), great character that can remind any person that despite their flaws, they can be heroic.

Here's some other things I like:

-Steve Ditko. Although he might get a bad wrap on this board b/c of his Legion run, his Spider-man art is some of the best to ever grace a comic book. He is my Dad's all-time favorite artist, and drew my Dad's eyes away from Kirby's FF and Swans and Infantino, making my Dad a Spider-Man fan for life. His work here (and on Capt. Atom and Blue Beetle) has such a unique style, with different poses and cool tight panel layouts, that I can't get enough. Also, he is one of the few silver age artists to purposely draw ugly characters that weren't villians, to make Spidey live in a realistic world.

Ditko is *the* Spidey artist of all-time. Then Romita. And then all the rest. I love his art--I mean, who isn't drawn in when we see Spidey fighting the Scorpion or unmasked by Doc Ock.

-The recurring cast was good too. Although the first seventeen issues were establishing the recurring cast without too many huge changes, it was great seeing Liz evolve into someone likable, see Betty deal with Peter's strangeness, Flash be Peter's rival and then JJJ be Spideys. Jonah Jameson is one of the best supporting characters in any comic, and very original (at least, he seemed so to me). Although he was a real jerk in these issues, I like the way he (and Flash) have evolved over the decades.

-The villians. Spider-man has the best villians in the Marvel U, hands down. And drawn by Ditko and dialogued by Lee sure helped . I love the early villians, like Doc Ock, the Vulture, Kraven, and especially the Lizard and Mysterio. Mysterio just looks so cool, and the Lizard was so menacing in #5. Doc Ock was by far Spidey's nemesis, and when he took of Spidey's mask in #11, it was a great scene.

-I really like how the Torch grew into being Spidey's rival and then friend. Probably the best Marvel U friendship IMO.

-#16 to #18. This was definately the best Spidey story up to that point, and one of the best ever (#31 to #33 is the best Spidey story ever IMO, and the 2nd best comic book story ever too, only beaten by FF #51). Aunt May being sick, Spidey hiding from the Sandman, the Green Goblin, the Torch, the Enforcers, it had everything--including Aunt May really coming through for Peter and giving him a big speech. When my father was a boy, his mother had cancer and was also bed-ridden, and this story really hit home for him. The dialogue is Stan Lee at his finest.

- The Covers - these are some of the best, ever. We have a display board in my basement that allows us to put up about 200 comics, and we are always putting up the early Spider-man. The covers are beautiful, and really show how Ditko shined, and how Spider-man looked so different from other super-heroes. I love the Lizard cover, the Mysterio cover, and the Green Goblin/Torch cover. They're *all* good.

-Quick fanboy moment: I like the Green Goblin too, and how he suddenly grew into Spidey's nemesis. Undoubtedly, Doc Ock was Spidey's first arch-nemesis, and the two issues in a row where he fights him, including unmasking him, really hammer this home. With #14, the Goblin becomes the new nemesis for most of the 20's, then paving the way for Doc Ock's return in #31 as the surprise villian. And then of course, the 30's end with the Goblin's return for the famous story where he learns Spidey's identity. These two are the true arch-nemesis of Spider-man, and the Goblin dying later on only made him a better--a villian with more mystique, the one who killed Gwen. I also like how the Hobgoblin took over the role of the GG (unlike Harry or Dr. Bart Hamilton, who didn't last long), as Spidey's other main villian. Venom doesn't really do it for me, for reasons I won't get into yet.

With #18, Spider-man truly was one of the best comic books in the Silver Age, and shows why he'd stay so popular for the next forty years.

Reading your rundown of the Lee/Ditko era only reminds me how innovative those early stories were. And Spidey probably has the best rogues gallery in comicdom (even better than Batman because aside from the top three or four, there are a lot of losers in that bunch).

The Lee/Ditko Era Part II (ASM #19-#38)

I like to break up the Ditko era into two groups, the first ending with #18, and the second ending, of course, with Ditko's departure. Although he wasn't there an incredibly long period of time, Ditko's art was the defining Spider-man, and no amount of praise will ever be enough. As with the other stories, there is little I can add to how great these Lee/Ditko stories are, so I'll just continue pointing out the things that I really like.

-With #18, the greatest Spidey story so far had been told, and Lee/Ditko were on a role that would last through the entire 20's. The stories in the 20's, particularly the two Scorpion stories rounding them out and the Green Goblin/Crime Master story are incredible. Issues #31-33 are what I consider to be the 2nd greatest comic book story of all time, right after FF #51. There is no better Spider-Man story ever, and it truly could have been the last Spider-man story if it needed to be--it really brought Peter into a new place, and made him the stronger, more mature person he had always wanted to be. After #33 though, the last Ditko stories were a little lacking IMO, although in hindsight, I'd prefer to have stories like this than half of what's on the market today.

-#31-33: continuing what I just said, this is IMO the best Spidey story ever. Aunt May dying, everything going wrong, and a tired Spidey struggling to get her the serum. After countless battles, a surprise battle with Doc Ock, his arch-nemesis suddenly back again, and then more battles, Spidey is stuck under those pipes and steel. Those scenes are riveting. Peter finally manages to get up for Aunt May and keep going when he was sure he was beaten. Truly amazing. My words can't do it justice, so I'll stop now .

My father can't even talk about these three issues without crying.

-The Green Goblin and the Crime Master. The Green Goblin really came into his own during these issues, assuming his place as Spidey's new arch-nemesis. Ditko made him seem to be the perfect counter-part to Spidey, agile and brillant, strong and cunning. The mystery of his identity is great to read too--although it seems that it wasn't truly as riveting as today's comics are. Ditko was adamant that Spidey should not know who the Goblin was, while Lee wanted it to be a supporting character, like Foswell in #10 as the Big Man.

It's said that Ditko believed it was ludicrous for Spider-Man to know who these people continually were, which is why the Crime Master ended up being a crook he'd never heard of. Lee, however, knew that realism needed to take a back seat to drama sometimes, and began introducing Norman Osborn towards the end of Ditko's run. They say this was one of the small reasons that added to Ditko wanting to leave Spider-Man and Marvel.

The Crime Master himself was pretty cool too, although he only lasted two issues. I really like how the Hobgoblin and the Rose brought back this flavor in the 80's for an extended forty issues instead of two.

-Other villians: the Beetle showed up, the Circus of Crime, the Molten Man, Kraven again, and a few more goofy villians at the end. But one really good villian was the Scorpion, who seemingly is never used correctly in the last twenty years. He truly is menacing in his first two appearances, and really gives Spidey a run for his money, beating him twice in one issue before finally losing. He could have really been made into a Dr. Octupus/Sabertooth type villian with the right writers, but I guess thats how comics go.

-Supporting cast: interestingly, Peter really got a huge overhaul in supporting cast around #28-31. Although Betty and Jonah stayed (and the Bugle), Betty and Peter called it quits for good, and then decided to stay friends, and then Betty remained as a supporting character. This ended the thirty issue long Peter/Betty romance, and in a way that seemed satisfying to both of them and the readers. IMO, Betty becomes even more likable once she's Peter's friend. In addition, two other Bugle employees become prominent, one being Ned Leeds, Betty's new boyfriend. While he started out as Peter's rival, he turns out to be a great guy, which is both realistic and good for Peter, as he becomes a long-time friend of his (and a good plot device as a reporter). The other is Frederick Foswell, who comes back during the Goblin/Crime Master story under suspicion, until we eventually learn that he assumes the guise of "Patch" to find out info on the underworld and try to learn Spidey's identity. Later, when he starts trying to connect Peter to Spidey, he gets more intersting.

Aunt May and Aunt Anna also stick around, although Peter says goodbye to Liz Allen from his supporting cast for over a hundred issues. This is strangely realistic as she goes away to another college, although Peter gets stuck with Flash again. Flash remains a jerk throughout Ditko's run, but I really like how the two will grow to be friends under Romita. And hints of Mary Jane continue, although we don't see her quite yet. And Doc Connors shows up every once in awhile to help Spidey, which is a great touch. Nods to the past were always one of the strong points of a growing mythos.

The other two additions are some of the best ever IMO: Gwen Stacy and Harry Osborn. Gwen is my favorite of Peter's loves, and her character is great from the beginning: mature, smart, sexy, and very independent. She also wonders why Peter is so quiet and cowardly, and Lee is great at showing her wondering why she is attracted to Peter. Harry is good too, although he starts out as a jerk. Lee really lets him open up in the Romita/Goblin story up next, and we finally get to see Peter get a best friend. And we get to see glimpses of Professor Warren too, although just barely.

The Covers: Some of the best ever. The two Scorpion covers are amazing, especially the latter one under-water--truly menacing. The Goblin covers are great too, we own #22 in Mint condition and it looks AMAZING. The Circus of Crime issue is great, and #33 with Spidey lifting the metal off his shoulders invokes an emotion in me that I'm not even sure what to call (emotional nostalgia?). My father hates the cover to #30 with the thief and the water tower, but I find it to be very dynamic (he was just spoiled as a youngster with Kirby and Ditko).

-When Ditko left Spider-Man, it was the most upsetting comics experience that my Dad and his friends ever had. My dad prepared to quit comics all together, some of his friends actually did. His art was truly one of a kind, and no one could imagine Spider-Man without it. #38 really marks the end of the first era of Spider-Man, and the shift to Romita changed a lot of things: clearer, more beautiful art, more beautiful women, Peter getting friends, Peter having women fight over him, Peter in college [or at least really showing us his life there]. It was a big transition for a title that no one believed would last more than a few years. Still, one look at the next story with the Goblin and my father decided to stick around. I'm glad he did.

Up next, true believers: Romita! The Green Goblin! The Kingpin! Gwen Stacy! Mary Jane Watson!

Well, I'm not sure if anyone is reading these, but I like talking about Spider-Man

The Romita Years (ASM #39-90)

The change from Ditko to Romita's art is about as stark as they come. Although this may have been a nightmare to many Spidey fans in the 60's, it certainly doesn't bother me. Romita's art is truly beautiful, and it's true about what they say: Romita could draw the prettiest girls. He could also draw one heck of a fight scene, and his issues with Stan are amazing.

-The Goblin/Spidey battle of #39-40. With Ditko gone, Stan pulled out all the stops and got right to it. The Goblin is Norman Osbourne and he knows Peter is Spidey. Truly classic, everyone should read it, my comments will only be redundant . The other great part about this story though, is that Peter finally gets a friend his age.

-Harry. I have a soft spot for Harry, and I miss him now. He was really Peter's best friend, and his first real friend his age. I thought the way they shared an apartment together was soooo cool when I was 12, and Harry really gave Pete the warm doses of friendship and harsh reality checks he needed throughout this era. I'm overjoyed he's in the movies, and unlike Norman, Gwen or Aunt May, I have and still want him back from the dead.

-Gwen Stacey- under Romita, Gwen became the true love of Peter's life, and remains to this day my favorite one. She was perfect, both smart and beautiful, but also a caring person who genuinely wanted to always do the right thing. Of course we wanted her to win over Mary Jane, Gwen was the best comic book girlfriend I've ever read!

-Mary Jane- MJ was also a great character, although a bit of an airhead and a little flimsy. But she was also a sweetie, and a much needed dose of fun into Peter's life. She was also great as a plot device for getting into trouble! With her, Harry and Gwen grounded as Peter's main best friends, Peter had finally stopped being the outcast he always was. A change, but a welcome one, showing Spidey's progression as a character.

-His other supporting cast members made the book as well. I can't think of any other run on a comic with a more dynamic and intersting supporting cast of characters: Flash, growing from an idiot to a war veteran/mature person who became Pete's friend; JJJ, the ever present menace in Spidey's life; Robbie, Betty, Ned and the Bugle staff, John Jameson, Prof. Warren, Dr. Connors, Aunt May, Aunt Anna, Randy Roberston and many more. One of the best characters though was Captain Stacy, one of the great men in Peter's life and (to steal from another reviewer) the conscience of the series for this whole run. I miss him a lot too, even though it's four hundred issues later, and enjoyed seeing him there for both Peter and Spidey.

-Constant dynamic action. That was pretty much Stan's go of it, and the energy in these issues is non-stop. The Rhino, the Lizard, the Shocker, the new Vulture, Kraven, the Vultures against one another, the Chameleon, etc. Consistent action and fun adventures with something always threatening to break apart Peter's life.

-Dr. Octupus and the Kingpin. The two big enemies of Spidey during this era. Both of them had three great stories with Spidey IIRC, the Kingpin's being all great. First we get the classic Spidey quitting, coming back, Foswell dying story and then two more, the final being a three way battle with the Schemer. Corny as that may have been, it's still a blast to read. The Doc Ock stories are very good too, the story with Spidey joining him being one of the best Doc Ock stories ever IMO.

-And then there is the Death of Captain Stacy. The first real important since Uncle Ben to die in Peter's life, Captain Stacy's death was heroic and tragic. Even more, it really marks then end to this era, since from here on in, Peter would see constant death, betrayal and sadness forever. He died telling Peter to protect Gwen, which ironically he would not do. The story itself is a great story, a classic Doc Ock/Spidey story with the noble death of Captain Stacy, and issue 90 ends with everything literally never being the same again.

-Great covers. Besides Spidey's classic turning his back in #50, there is also great Romita covers with the Shocker, the Vultures, Doc Ock, Mary Jane, etc.

-Other cool tidbits for me: John Jameson and Capt. Stacy talking about who Spidey is, and then Joe Robertson and Capt. Stacy continuing this. Spidey throwing Patch off his trail before Foswell ultimately died. The Prowler, a cool ass character that I have a huge fondness for. The place the characters always got coffee and the constant parties they'd through (including the one where Pete walked in with the mask in hand telling them he was Spidey). Flash in Viet Nam. Jonah becoming a more important part of Peter's life. And most of all, Gwen and Peter falling in love!

Great stuff!

The Final Vestiges of the Silver Age for Spidey (ASM #91-122)

After the Death of Captain Stacy, nothing was ever the same again, although it was truly the death of Gwen that ended the Silver Age for Spidey. The issues between those two had both good stories and a couple of weak stories, but the constant supporting cast is what makes this issues continue to be great. With #100, Stan departed as writer of Spidey, (although he came back for a few), and a few others artists had some runs (including Gil Kane doing a cool Gwen, Peter and Jonah in the Savage Land story with Ka-Zar and Kraven).

After Capt. Stacey's death, Spidey is now a murderer to the public, something that now truly makes him a menace. Although he never was good in the public eye, things have now really changed. The issues right after deal with repercussions for Peter and Gwen, although they finally get back together in the endings to one of the issues, since I'm sure readers were writing in and demanding it.

The return of the Goblin story and Harry's drug abuse is an amazing story in the mid 90's, and one of my favorites to this day. Peter beating up the drug dealers is a fun alternative to knowing that the Goblin is going to harm all of Peter's friends. A great, great story.

Issue 100 is a great story as well, and gives a good finish to Stan's 100 issues, although the following six-armed story with Morbius never really did it for me. The Gwen/Peter story in the Savage Land is fun, although the Gibbon, the Demolisher and some others are forgettable.

Doc Ock's return is a great story, although his new nemesis appears in the form of Hammerhead. Although at first he appears goofy (which he undoubtedly is), he's grown on me over the years, and I've come to enjoy the Doc Ock/Hammerhead stories.

From about issue #100 on, you get the feeling that Gwen and Peter should be getting married, or at least want to be getting married, which creates an anxiety when you know what #121 has in store. The rest of the supporting cast plays a major part in keeping the weaker villian plots afloat, and constant appearances by a returned Flash, Prof. Warren, Harry, MJ, the Bugle staff and others maintain the level of fun for me.

And then issue #121-122, forever placing the Green Goblin as Spidey's worst villian (although once he came back from the dead, this kind of ended). Gwen dies, and everything is different. Peter's life is now full of misery and tragedy. From here on in, there will be a lingering sadness that never really goes away until his wedding. The Goblin dies too, ruining Peter's relationship with Harry (for some time), and cements the Goblin's role as the villian who ruined everything and then died before Peter could really get any kind of revenge. A great story all in all, although I hate seeing Gwen die still. With Gwen and Norman Osbourne dead, Peter's supporting cast is changed forever and the Silver Age of Spider-man ends.

I can think of the image right now of the two cops, one an older black man and the other a young rookie, the veteran cop telling the rookie to lower his gun, he doesn't know what he's doing. It's riveting!

Some of the best Spidey stories, some of the not-so-best, but all in all, fun to read just the same!

Next: The aftermath! a changing of the guard of the supporting cast! the Jackal! Clones! the Punisher! Gerry Conway's touch of death! The Mind-worm?

I am enjoying reading these, so keep going if you will. I wish I could run out and grab some of those big "Essential" books, or better some of those paperback archives at the Barnes & Noble.

Thanks matlock !

I hear you on the Essential books and archives, I'm glad Marvel still prints these stories. If only there were some better way to market to people, especially younger children!

The Aftermath, the Jackal and some new faces (ASM #123-151)

After #122, Peter's life was never the same, and the Silver Age really did come to an end. The issues right afterwards dealt with the ramifications of 121-122, and then from #129-151, Spidey became immersed in a new saga, the Jackal Saga. Although it's hard to read the issues directly after Gwen's death, there are a lot of good stories in the Spidey-Jackal war, and they can be a fun read. However, there is a stronger amount of goofiness and a feeling of a lower standard of stories in the post Lee/Ditko/Romita years. Once you've read the entire run a few times though, you start to get over this feeling and enjoy the stories for what they are, and see them as just another part of Spidey's life.

-The Aftermath- although the stories after Gwen's death are sad, the writers do a good job at making sure we see Peter and his supporting cast deal with it. Peter is a mess, Harry is a complete mess, JJJ is outraged and wants Spidey brought in, and MJ, Flash and the rest are having trouble dealing with it. There are a lot of good scenes with Peter coming to terms with Aunt May, MJ, Joe Robertson, etc. and some intense scenes with Spidey and JJJ. The hardest part of the whole thing is the relationship between Harry and Peter goes completely sour (well, Harry and everyone), and Peter never knows it until #136. Jonah hiring Luke Cage is a bit over the top, but that never stopped him before .

-Gerry Conway's kiss of death- I laugh ever time I read one of the letters in the #130's written by a fan who is outraged at Gerry Conway and describes him as having a kiss of death. First, Gwen and Norman Osbourn die, then the Kangeroo a few issues later, and then Doc Ock and Hammerhead supposedly are blown up. However, at the time, I'm sure it must have felt that people were dropping everywhere and things were spinning wildy out of control. Add in the Vulture almost killing MJ and John Jameson turning into the Man-Wolf for the first time, and I can see how a shell-shocked fan from Gwen's death might think everything is going to hell in 1974.

-New faces- After #122, there did seem to be an influx of new faces though. This had always been the case with Spidey, although there seemed to be some particulurly memorable new faces right after: The Punisher, the Jackal (more on him later), the Tarrantula and the Man-Wolf. I love the Jackal saga, am a big fan of the Tarrantula (he is pretty cool) and the Punisher worked the best when he was a supporting cast member of Spidey IMO. There was also the long-overdue return of the Molten Man 100 issues later with a startling revelation that he was Liz Allen's step-brother (a plot device to bring her back in), and the Scorpion had another good go at Spidey. The Grizzley wasn't that memorable, although he moved along the Spidey/Jackal War, although the Mind-worm was pretty weak all around.

-The Spidey/Jackal War- The Jackal, IMO, was pretty damn awesome. After the death of the Green Goblin, Spidey found himself with a new nemesis, and another with a mysterious identity. First, we see him with the Punisher, an issue of huge firsts. Then we move right into the Jackal with Hammerhead and the Spider-Mobile. Although my father loathes the Spider-mobile, I find it kind of funny since I know it only appeared three times. Hammerhead works well, and then Dr. Octupus is thrown into the mix leading into the second big Hammerhead/Doc Ock war. Although the plot is generally silly (Doc Ock marrying Aunt May :rolleyes: ), I enjoy reading the story nonetheless. In the end, both Hammerhead and Doc Ock are blown to smithereens, leaving the Jackal in their wake. With Gobby and Doc Ock dead and the Kingpin missing since the 80's, the Jackal suddenly moves to the front of Spidey's rogue's gallery as the top villian. He also appears one more time, this time teaming up with the not so memoralbe Grizzley in a story that doesn't do much, but does manage to further the Spidey/Jackal War and maintain the mystery of the Jackal.

Professor Warren, who by now had become a pretty major member of Pete's supporting cast, is continually seen. The final revelation of what's to come (him being the Jackal) must have gotten on the nerves of Steve Ditko, although I don't mind the literary use of major coincidences (in that Peter knows yet another arch-nemesis of Spidey in real life). The do a good job though of making it connect directly to Gwen's death, adding a sense of continuity to Peter's life, in that there is one further ramification of Gwen's death: Professor Warren loses it and becomes the Jackal and puts Pete through torture yet again.

-Harry and the second Green Goblin- After #122, Harry pretty much loses it, culminating in #136-137, where he sadly becomes the Green Goblin and holds MJ, Flash and Aunt May hostage. Here, he truly emulates his father by knowing Spidey's identity and using it against him, something only his true villians could do. It's sad, especially the way the issue ends with Harry completely insane, to see Peter's one time best friend (the only kid his age who gave him a chance) have his life ruined. But, like Captain Stacy and Gwen before him (and Prof. Warren), Harry now also suffers the fate of living in a world with Spider-Man and the Green Goblin.

-With huge gaps to fill with the loss of Gwen and Harry in Pete's supporting cast, they had to do something. Flash recieved more time than ever and truly emerges as a good guy and Peter's friend, and Randy Robertson, Betty Brant and Ned Leeds get good time (Ned even being the hostage at Shea Stadium for the final Spidey/Jackal battle). Jonah and Robbie are there in full affect, and John Jameson even gets some screen time (albeit, as Man-Wolf). Aunt May and Aunt Anna do a good job and helping Peter and the rest grieve. The big return though, is Liz Allen to the fold, who comes back in #134 and stays among Peter's friends for the duration of his life. She immediately fits in and rounds out the supporting crew. MJ also seems to finally achieve some character growth and is shown as being more sensitive than she was ever before, although she still maintains some airhead qualities. The writers should have waited for some time before giving Peter a new love, but I guess it makes sense that Pete and MJ would seek consolement from each other and a relationship would emerge. It never does feel right though, the first time they are really together. And although there was some speculation about a Pete/Liz relationship, this was never explored (and probably a good idea--if Liz was seen as a Gwen replacement, she would have been hated).

-Clones and the final Jackal fight- After some twenty issues of grieving and Jackal/Spidey fights, it comes down to the nitty gritty in the 140's. First Mysterio, the Scorpion and a trip to France ensue, until Peter comes face to face with the shock of all shockers: Gwen Stacy. Or her clone at least. This is done extrememly well IMO, since Peter is beside himself in anger and grief. Before anything can be settled, the Tarrantula (a favorite of mine) attacks and he and the Jackal wreak havoc on Spidey's life (the Jackal never fights Spidey alone). After whipping the Tarantula, Spidey searches for the Gwen clone and a kidnapped Ned Leeds and ends up at Shea stadium where the Jackal presents his newest partner: a Spider-Man clone.

The saga ends great (as well as it could) and the Jackal is revealed as Professor Warren, the Spidey clone retains his mantra ('great power, great responsibilty') and sacfrices himself. The Gwen clone, it seems, will live on somewhere else, although there is a sense of closure in Peter's life for the first time since #122, as Professor Warren and the two clones move on. This early clone saga is good and I think should be read without the future knowledge that a five year clone saga is thirty years in the future. The best part of it is the final issue, #151 (?), where Dr. Connors tests Peter to see if he is the clone or the real Spidey, and Peter is smart enough to tear the results up. After all, he doesn't need to know if he's a 'clone' or 'real'--he knows in his heart that he's Spider-man and is ready to continue his battle.

With Captain Stacy, Gwen, Harry, Norman Osbourn and Professor Warren all gone and the Jackal, the Goblin and Doc Ock all dead, Spidey must now wondwer "where do we go from here?" There were of course, still a wide variety of threats to come his way, and a lot of twists and turns in the supporting cast. The stories are still fun and the art is still good, although it seems that so many artists followed Romita's style for a long time, that it's difficult to tell off-hand if Romita is drawing or if someone else is.

So, "where did it go from there"? Well, with a second Spidey book on the way (not counting Marvel Team-Up), there were plenty of places...

I still have 3 battered digest/paperback size reprint books that reprinted a lot of the early Lee/Ditko issues. (I also have one each of the Hulk and FF.) I wish that format would get another go 'round. I also got into the Legion through some Digests.

Where Do We Go From Here?: Part I (ASM #152-200)

After the Spidey/Jackal War, Peter's life continued with many twists and turns, although there always seemed to be a sense of being lost in it. It seemed like a lot of writers couldn't find their way on the book, although there are still some memorable fun stories throughout. By #200, there were some major changes to the supporting cast, and the progression of all these characters continued nicely. As of #152, all of the characters that had survived were still in place, but by #200, there would be little to nothing of a supporting cast.

At ASM #167, a new Spider-Man book, Peter Parker: the Spectaculur Spider-man cam out, and had another whole slew of Spidey tales ensued. I'll review those in another post.

I'll go over things chronologically for the first time:

-Ned and Betty's wedding- after one hundred issues and roughly nine years, the long-awaited wedding of Ned and Betty finally took place. The issue, roughly #156 IIRC, is a fun one and really highlights Peter's supporting cast, even though the wedding is crashed by a super-villian (and a weak one at that! Mirage? C'mon!). But from here on in, we see a constant of 'change' in Peter's life as writers struggled with keeping things interesting for Pete's cast. Still, the progression is fun to watch.

-Gloria and Pete's pad- a new addition to Pete's cast, Gloria Grant becomes a mainstay (although she's been forgotten for years on end over the last twenty-five years). First Pete's neighbor, then a fellow Bugle employee, Gloria is a welcome addition. Sha Shan also became more prominent (Flash's girlfriend), although I'll talk more about her in my review of PPTSS. Peter's apartment is another fun aspect of his continuity, as he had to find a new apartment after his friendship with Harry crumbled. After months of having no furniture, his apartment is finally decorated with crappy hand-me-downs and remains that way for some time. How goofy was the giant Indian statue that would always be drawn whenever Pete was in his pad?! More fun for us through Pete's blight.

-The end of the Spider-Mobile- it had to happen sooner or later. Still, it's kind of fun reading this issue, and the Tinkerer returns!

-The Return of Doc Ock...and Hammerhead?- Doc Ock returns, having survived a nucleur explosion, and immdediately the old Aunt May connection is explored. This is fun, although the inherent silliness to the plot may turn a lot of people off. Especially when Hammerhead returns! Yup, he died, came back as a ghost to haunt Ock, and then somehow...came back to life? Confusing, but Hammerhead and Ock were back for their final Ock/Spidey/Hammerhead War! With Gobby and Jackal dead, and the Kingpin not being seen in ages, Spidey needed something of a nemesis. Yet, this and many future Doc Ock appearances are not quite up to standard for Spidey's greatest foe.

-Speaking of the Kingpin...the Kingpin returns!- Like Ock, the Kingpin was brought back in for a few good tussles, although like Ock, the battles didn't have the same flavor as the days of old. One battle circa #167 and another in the mid 190's were not much more than throwaway fights.

-The Lizard and Stergon battles- Like most of the fights in this period, they were a bit over-dramatic and silly, but these are still fun! One in the 160's and another in PPTSS show a mad-house of reptiles, dinosaur skeletons, the Lizard, Stergon the Dinosaur Man and Spidey in an all out brawl. If you're a kid who likes reptiles and dinosaurs, I'm sure you'd be in seventh heaven though.

-Will O Wisp- a bold new superstar! Or at least, that's what the cover says. I guess you had to be there in 1977, but I never really seemed to enjoy Will O'Wisp as much as my 1977 Spider-man reading contemporaries did--it appears that he was pretty popular. I do enjoy seeing Dr. Jonas Harrow, the sneaking scienctist who has always lurked in Spidey's back round making appearances though.

-"When they made Joe Robertson, they broke the mold"- All along, Robbie was an important member of Pete's cast since his first appearance, although at one point during the 160's-170's, he has what I think is his best moment of all time. Talking to Spider-man, he gives him a hard talking to about going on in life, telling him his secret of having another son who died in child-birth and almost ruined his and his wife's life. Yet, the were able to go on, and he tells Spidey to start being strong again. It's his greatest scene ever, and really shows the kind of man that Joe Robertson is. Like Captain Stacy before him, Robbie acts as father figure to Peter and someone to look up to and admire. I love this scene

-The Punisher- The Punisher must have gotten popular fast, because he appeared every twenty issues or so, and usually in good stories. One story with Nightcrawler shows that Marvel was making the transition to a later period and another with the Punisher killing Hitman further shows this.

-Rocket Racer- For some reason, I have a soft spot for him, although not as much as the Prowler. Goofy, 70's-ish, but fun. I wouldn't mind seeing him back in some kind of X-treme sports motiff. At least his story with 'Big Wheel' ( ) showed the Tinkerer back in action and crazy.

-Harry, Dr. Bart Hamilton and the third Green Goblin- Here is where, once again, Spidey's personnal life gets really crazy...although this time, the end brings back a small sense of calm to it. First, Harry returns and comes back as the old Harry (although too shy at first), and then Harry fits right back in with Pete's cast. Next, Harry begins dating Liz Allen, in a great twist for the cast, and Harry really becomes the old Harry as Pete's best friend. And Liz gets some nice happiness too. Then Dr. Bart Hamilton enters the picture, the nice psychiatrist--until he becomes Green Goblin III! A big five parter ensues (with Silverman getting crippled at some point), until Harry dons his old Goblin costume and a Spidey/Green Goblin II/Green Goblin III fight erupts! In the end, Hamilton dies, and Harry is *finally* back to normal, at peace and able to put the memory of the Goblin behind him. Here is where I would have liked to see the legacy of the Green Goblin stop (especially since the Hobgoblin takes over down the road). Harry is back to normal, and now with Liz, and Peter can bury the memory of Norman Osbourn with Gwen (and Warren, Hamilton, etc.).

-Exit: Mary Jane- After a few years of dating MJ after Gwen's death, things moved along shaky and never quite as right as it should have been. Finally, Pete proposes to MJ! Yet...MJ says no. And with good reason, b/c it never really seemed right. In fact, at this point in Spidey's life, it seemed like he shouldn't really be with MJ at all. The writers must have sensed this, and plenty of letter-writers complained that they hated MJ, because soon after, MJ leaves the series completely and leaves Peter heart-broken once more. Her turning down the proposal, or course, made people hate her more. Mary Jane wouldn't be seen again for some time.

-Spidey graduates college- well, sorta. Although he gets shafted again and doesn't get to have his hame called, Peter finally graduates college after 150 issues and roughly 10 years in real time. Still, I wish he could have stayed, since college life was a major part of Spidey's life in the book and a lot of the fun. He does continue on in grad school though for a time. This is a major milestone for Peter though.

-Spidey is cleared by the police- and here is the major milestone for Spidey- After years of being wanted for the murders of Captain Stacy and Norman Osbourn, Spidey is finally cleared as a murderer, and doesn't have police-men shooting at him all the time. Yet another major milestonen in the life of Spider-man.

-Jonah loses it- After this, JJJ pretty much loses it. With cool stories with Spencer Smythe (his best story ever) and Jonas Harrow, JJJ and Spidey go through a series of things that really mark a turning point in their relationship. JJJ seems to crack, and Spidey really gives him a talking to, and when it's all said and done, things are different between them--by this time, Jonah is really not Spidey's *enemy* anymore. And Jonah finally gets a girlfriend! (And later, a wife!)

-Enter the Black Cat- The Black Cat shows up in a memorable story that introduces her to us. Although she is a minor character first, he later appearances would bump her to major.

-Peter's life shits the bed- big time. In the final ten issues leading up to #200, everything goes wrong for Pete. MJ leaves, Betty gets all weird trying to leave Ned for Peter, Flash and Harry think he's a jerk and then the kicker of all kickers: Aunt May dies. Even more, Mysterio seems to be behind a lot of this! Good for Mysterio (who I might add, is supposed to be dead right now), although bad for Spidey.

-Issue #200- Finally: Spidey versus the Burglar, who shot Uncle Ben. In one of the best Spider-Man stories to come out in some time, Spidey finally learns that it is the Burglar who is in league with Mysterio, and they've faked Aunt May's death. Spidey tracks him down, to learn Aunt May is hostage. And two decades worth of revenge finally happens, as Peter continues to scare him out of the rage he's been through in the last ten issues, although I like to think out of the rage he's gone through from Uncle Ben's death, to the Goblin, Captain Stacy, Gwen, the Jackal, MJ leaving him, etc. The Burglar, finally, dies of a heart attack. And more importantly, for the first time Aunt May is not scarred of Spider-Man after having been so since issue 1. This is the most important turning point after all these issues, as there is finally some type of peace between Aunt May and Spidey.

By the end of #200, however, the series was marked with a specific change--no more spotlighting the supporting cast. Although the Bugle would remain a major part, we stopped seeing Harry, Liz, Flash, Sha Shan almsot altogether and hardly ever saw Betty, Ned, Joe Robertson, Marla (JJJ's girlfriend) or Gloria. With no supporting cast being shown, no conflict with the police and no college, once again Spidey entered a period (although quick) of having really no direction.

Meanwhile, in PPTSS, there were other things going on...