Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Starman question

I remember reading about Starman in Adventure Comics around 1980 or so. Much later, there was a Starman Comic - is this the same guy? (I never picked up any of the later Starman comics - my loss, from what I have read here.)

No. The Starman that co-starred in ADV with (Plastic Man! ) was Prince Gavyn, heir to the throne in another galaxy. As was the custom of his people, he was thrown into space when his sister was chosen as the next ruler; They did this to prevent infighting for the throne. Gavyn was saved from his fate by his nascent stellar powers, and became his sister's protector until she was assassinated; whereupon he became king and retired as Starman, ultimately dying in the original Crisis. He reappeared post-Crisis as a galactic adventurer, most recently seen in the IC tie-in Rann-Thanagar War.

The recent STARMAN series featured Jack Knight, son of the original Ted Knight Star Man. James Robinson worked all of the previous incarnations of the character into that series. I've loved what I've read of it...admittedly, mostly only the Thom Kallor tie-ins and a few crossover typ events... I really need to get the trades.

DC has reused the STARMAN name for a number of different characters. The 1st was Ted Knight, in the 1940s, who was a member of the JSA. There was a one-shot in the 1970's featuring a blue-skinned alien. Paul Levitz & Steve Ditko did the series in ADVENTURE about a dethroned prince. The climax of this took place in an issue of DC COMICS PRESENTS, with art by Jim Starlin. After the CRISIS, Roger Stern & Tom Lyle created another brand-new character, a nice throwback to the days of "nice guy" superheroes-- until the editor kicked Stern off his own creation! It went downhill from there with each successive change in creative teams.

Right after ZERO HOUR, James Robinson & Tony Harris created ANOTHER new character-- the younger son of the original. The older son had debuted in the Stern series-- briefly-- offended that someone else was using his Dad's hero name. In the Robinson series, he was KILLED OFF in the first 2 pages of the first episode! This paved the way for his younger brother to take over, who eventually joined the revived JSA.

There were even a couple of others... One of the great things about the Robinson series was, it touched on EVERY character who'd ever used the name-- including the blue-skinned alien, the Stern-Lyle character, and even the Levitz-Ditko character from ADVENTURE.

Just reread the Robinson series. Great book from beginning to end. He (Robinson) had it laid out wonderfully. He really had a grand plan to the whole thing.

History of Starman(s)
Starman I - Ted Knight, the Golden Age Starman of WWII. He remained Starman throughout the history of the DCU, being a member of the JSA, All-Star Squadron, etc. He was Starman at the same time Starmans III, IV and V were active. He recently died heroically against his arch-nemesis the Mist after a long career at the end of the James Robinson Starman series.

Starman II - the "Starman of 1951'. This character actually stems from an old World's Finest issue where Batman dressed up as a new hero, Starman. This story was retconned out of existence b/c of Crisis. In James Robinson's Starman series, he established that there was indeed a Starman with that costume in 1951, defending Opal City. This was because in 1951, Starman I was in an asylum due to immense guilt felt over co-creating the Atomic Bomb. Starman II was eventually revealed to be Starman VI, David Knight, the son of the original Starman, traveling back in time seconds before his death for (1) year via Dr. Fate.

Starman III - this is the Blue Starman, Mikaal first seen in the late 1970's. I believe he only actually ever had one or two appearances, before returning in the James Robinson Starman series. He remains alive and well, living in Opal City and a close friend of Jack Knight. He still has some power but is not an active Starman. Robinson also got into Mikaal being an ancester of what would become Talok VII (as well as a Umbra-Shade connection) but that was all rendered moot by the threeboot.

Starman IV - Prince Gavyn, the Starman of space first seen in 1980. Pov lists his origin above. He died during Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Starman V - Will Payton, the Starman of the late 1980's, who had his own long-running comic book. Payton had a series of adventures, crossed paths with Starman VI (David Knight) and fought most notably against Eclipso. In the summer crossover "Eclipso: the Darkness Within", he sacrificed his life to stop Eclipso and died. During the James Robinson Starman series it was revealed that he was somehow still alive, and somehow now had a connection to Starman IV, Prince Gayvn. Thus, they somehow combined (or something) but its really the body/powers of Prince Gavyn and personality of Will Payton that still exists in space on Throneworld, Prince Gavyn's home. This Starman was scene recently in Rann/Thanagar War and in Infinite Crisis.

Starman VI - David Knight, son of the original Starman, Ted Knight. David's career essentially goes like this: (1) shows up angry at Will Payton for being a Starman that was not a Knight, (2) having a brief few panels in Zero Hour about becoming the new Starman, (3) getting shot in the face in Issue #1 of James Robinson's Starman series, (4) becoming the Starman of 1951 (Starman II) for a year via Dr. Fate before dying. It was only after he died and communed with Jack Knight (Starman VII) once a year that he became interesting and ever did anything.

Starman VII - Jack Knight, son of Starman I and brother of Starman VI. Probably the most beloved of the Starmen, he was the main character in James Robinson's Starman series. A reluctant hero at first with infinite layers to his personality, he gradually grew into the role of Starman. He worked with Starman III and V at one point, although he mainly guarded Opal City, his home. He was a founder of the new JSA. He gave up being Starman at the end of his series, allowing the legacy to continue with Stargirl, the former Star-Spangled Kid. This was after his father had died and he learned he had sired a child by Nash, the second Mist (and daughter of the original). Leaving Opal City to search for Sadie, the love of his life and sister of Starman VI, Jack retired from super-heroics.

Stargirl - Courtney Whitmore the former Star-Stpangled Kid II, who is now an active JSAer.

Other Starman(s)
Starman 1,000,000 - seen in the DCU 1,000,000 event, this heir of the Starman was actually a villain and a traitor to the JLA 1,000,000 years in the future.

Starman VIII - the Starman after Jack Knight was supposed to be Danny Blaine, who Jack met when he traveled back in time. Danny Blaine was actually Thom Kallor, Star Boy of the 31st Century Legion of Super-Heroes (reboot version), who traveled back in time when he was older. What this means following the threeboot remains a mystery. However, Thom Kallor was actually the reincarnated 19th century hero Scalphunter, who then went on to become one of the O'Dare clan (police detectives that helped Jack Knight - the family full of brothers and one sister), but died in the finale of the series against the Mist I. When Matt O'Dare died, he realized he was being reincarnated again, this time one thousand years later as Thom Kallor, who would one day be Danny Blaine, Starman VIII.

Complicated yes, but it sure was a great series and a lot of fun.

A shame Prince Gavyn died - I always thought that series held a lot of potential.

Actually, 83,265 years and four months into the future

[One million months after the publication of Action Comics #1 ]

Ooooh, that's what that all meant. I remember trying to figure it out years ago but giving up...

what about Starwoman, Courtney Whitmore's younger sister? she kind of ties into the Starman legacy

(i think she showed up in a recent JSA storyline, it involved Degaton)

Oh, yeah... Degaton's goons killed Courtney's family, including her baby sister. She went back in time with the rest of the JSA. While trying to enlist the aid of Ted Knight, then in the asylum as Cobie mentioned, she was captured, straight-jacketed and thrown in the bin herself...only to be rescued by the mysterious redheaded Starwoman, who indeed was revealed to be Court's little sister, alive and well. Cool storyline.

Oh, and Cobalt - you missed out Dr Mid-Nite

The only legacy close to Starman's in terms of different people bearing the name is Manhunter, but unlike Robinson's Starman, the current Manhunter comic kinda screwed it all up in a way that I'm not sure I can do a list like the one above.

'Boot, was there a Dr. Mid-Nite/Starman connection at some point? I feel like I'm having fake visions of a Dr. Mid-Nite posing as Starman story now that I can't remember.

Totally forgot about the Starwoman story!

I was under the impression (maybe a false one) that it was Prince Gavyn in Will Payton's body. That the explosion that gave Will his powers actually transferred the Prince's mind into Payton's body and that he had access to Will's memories. Later, he realized this and used the appearance changing aspect of his powers to revert back to his old self and reclaimed the throne.

You may be right Gary. I'm having a hard time remembering. I just remember a scene where I thought Will realizes he's now married to Gavyn's beautiful wife, who is willing to maintain their marriage b/c the planet needs a ruler and she finds him very attractive.

Unless that was some kinda dream I had about myself...

Were you Prince Gavyn or his wife?

In James Robinson's series, the "Starman of 1951" was originally Charles McNider (Dr. Mid-Nite I). He allowed David Knight to take over the identity when David travelled in time.

And Sadie was the sister of Will Payton -- Starman V, not VI.

BRM just about got it - the other thing is that he quit as Star51 when there was a crimewave back in his own city.

I just reread the Starman series (Prince Gavyn) in Adventure. I had forgotten how good it really was. The finale, which appeared in DC Comics presents, was nothing short of awesome. The final chapter was a Levitz/Starlin production, and was soooo good. This series definitely had a lot more potential than was used.

DC to Collect Complete Starman[/i] in HC Format

From [i]Newsarama:

Wow. I don't think I'll be spending $300 to buy higher-quality versions of comics I already own, but it's good to see DC hasn't totally forgotten this property. Maybe soon we'll finally see the Jack-in-Japan or Shade's origin story that James Robinson has been sitting on.

We can only hope! Maybe with the writer's strike, James could redirect some energy to his love of comics!!!! You know, so something good could come out of it all.

The first Starman Omnibus hit stores last week, just in time for my end-of-month shipment... I'll have it this coming Monday.

I've been looking forward to this since DCBS listed it for 50% in their January preorders...

Fair question... and you never answered it, Cobie...

That hottie? If I was her in the dream, there'd be a lot of mirrors I'd try to find.

I got (and d) the first Omnibus! The second edition is listed in DC's December titles. So they're releasing them every six months?!

The official solicit:

So after all this time, I'm rereading the six-Omnibus collection... I recently bought a Jack Knight ink and watercolor piece from Barry Kitson, and thought it would be a good way to while away the time while I wait for it to get here. I'm realizing how little of the run I actually read! I've had the six volumes on my shelf behind the Mattel Jack Knight figure, but I really only ever read the first Omni, issue 50 for the Legion tie-in, and #81 when I was buying BLACKEST NIGHT for my buddy Mike... I'm halfway through the final volume and am kicking myself for not giving these an in-depth reading.

I remember not enjoying the issues anywhere near as much when Harris left the book. I'm still scarred by Robinson;s JLA run, not to want to go back to it too much. It certainly stood out at the time though.

I still don't see why Robinson was so great on Starman but has mostly laid an egg on everything else he's written with very few exceptions.

THE GOLDEN AGE, LEAVE IT TO CHANCE and STARMAN...All so good.

I did like The Golden Age. Although the art was also excellent there.

I did say "with a very few exceptions". Another less-known one was that mini he did starring the GA Vigilante.

But this is also the guy who wrote "Cry for Justice".....

I was replying only to Pov, not questioning your opinion.

I don't think either of our responses warranted such an upsetting, traumatising reminder of Cry for Justice.

Although some of his JLA related work can be said to be transcendent. It was some of the poorest work I've read across various media, not just comics.

Optometrist appointment the other day. While waiting, I plowed thru the Ted Knight STARMAN stories from ADVENTURE COMICS #72-75...

Case Of The Magic Bloodstone!
The Case Of Murders In Outer Space!
The Case Of The Monstrous Animal-Men
The Strange Case Of The Luckless Liars!

All of these were by Gardner Fox & Jack Burnley. They look and read very nice and "professional", but it's too easy to see why this series didn't catch on at the time. Apart from the entire series concept and the hero's costume & powers seeming too "generic" and "deritivate" (the Ted Knight series was the result of a TEAM of 5 editors & Burnley pooling ideas-- "creation by committee" if there ever was an example), you have the bit about Ted always faking illness which gets tiresome. Then there's his not wearing a facemask, yet both his girlfriend Doris and his FBI contact somehow never recognize him.

Burnley's art is VERY nice, sharp, clean, "realistic", I'd almost say for comics, decades ahead of its time. It actually looks like it would have been a better fit in newspaper strips (in fact, Burnley did most of the BATMAN Sunday stories in the early 40s). At the same time, it's a bit "stiff", and not very "lively". I'm reminded that at the time the Golden Age Archive book came out (2000), it was one of many inspirations for a project I was working on. But since then, I've tried to take the advice of another artist and friend who kept urging me to "back away from too much photo-reference". As a result, while I still think it's pretty, it doesn't "grab" me the way it did 21 years ago.

Most of the line reproduction isn't bad (though I sometimes find myself wishing somone had done photographic reproduction right off the original printed comics), but the 4th story I read today looked like they really didn't have good source material to work with (some pages looked really fuzzy). I guess with stuff from that era, one should be grateful you can read it AT ALL these days, in any kind of "reasonably" decent shape.

New question:

Is the 45-issue Will Payton Starman series worth collecting? I'm not exactly flush with cash right now, but I'm intrigued. I have little familiarity with Will beyond the forgettable Eclipso event where he was killed off. He certainly seemed more likable than some of the other Starmen, though. Plus, his costumes were cool. And more than half the run was written by the often-brilliant Roger Stern, another thing that intrigues me.

It was a bit like Stern's Power of the Atom. Writing and art were okay, but never really pushed on.
Starman was an overpowered everyman and I recall Stern setting up a decent family cast around him.

His main foes were connected to his origin. But I don't recall him either finding a niche or it being a title that made you anticipate the the next issue. DC's Event comics and guest appearances possibly gave it some small boosts in sales.

I got the first several issues cheaply at a local shop at the time. Like the Atom, both were still part of DC's post crisis relaunch. But neither were on the same level as Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, JLA or Suicide Squad.

A caveat is that I was very much a DC reader back then. Those who liked Stern's Marvel work, might get more from them.

Thank you, Thoth.

I have a passing familiarity with Power of the Atom, as some of the issues were drawn by Graham Nolan, but he hadn't found his own style yet, and Stern's scripts were nothing special. I guess I'm concerned that Starman is more of the same (most of Stern's issues there were drawn by Tom Lyle, another good artist whose best work was still a few years away.)

OTOH, the idea of Will Payton being an "overpowered everyman" actually holds some appeal for me, as it reminds me of one of my favorite Marvel characters, Quasar.

I collected them for a while. The setup was interesting as the readers knew some of where his powers came from but he did not, and much of the first few issues is Will exploring what he can do and the people that were intended to get the powers trying to get them back. Roger Stern's writing was fairly typical for him I think, which I tended to enjoy but was nothing outstanding. I did enjoy his supporting cast, particularly his sister who was aware of his secret.

Looking back through the covers made me remember that I actually did enjoy the character and the journey Stern took him on. His family interactions continued longer than I remembered. Another part I liked was how he didn't have a "typical" superhero background nor other hero peers to learn from (living in Arizona) so he fumbled around a bit figuring out what to do. He did have several guest stars appearing over time, I guess to tie him in more to the existing DC Universe, including Superman 2 or 3 times, Power Girl more than once, Batman twice, and others (including 20th Century Lar Gand late in the run). Another interesting development was when Kitty Faulkner/Rampage moved into the area and they began a relationship and she helped him get a handle on his powers.

Tom Lyle's artwork was ok but never hugely thrilled me. Nevertheless it told the story well. The costume design though I thought was terrific and really stood out. I was disappointed when it changed to a darker more symmetrical design with Dave Hoover taking over the art with #26. Not long after in #29 Len Strazewski took over writing and I stopped collecting.

Honestly I don't know whether to recommend it to you or not. Roger Stern did some good work with the characters and I guess that was what kept me hooked. It's been years since I read it and my main memory is of being disappointed that more wasn't done with him, which I guess reflected that I really liked how he started out.

The text piece on the first issue mentions it being a little closer to Atom than they wanted, so they moved from that. They were also looking to link in with Invasion quite a bit in advance. A combination of the tried and tested guest star approach, but with him also taking advantage of the annual event books.

45 issues is a decent run. Aztek tried lots of guest stars and gave him JLA membership, and it lasted 10. Also more than Beetle, Booster Gold and not far off Captain Atom's 57.

Perhaps Stern had the plan of taking a random event, giving someone powers and then having him interact with the DCU for the first year. Just an everyperson, rather than a grim, disturbed vigilante.

It must have been later in the run, due to him having the dark costume, but Guy Gardner got the job of trying to recruit Starman for the JLI in a JLI issue. Cue fight when Starman declines.

stile mentions Lyle's art. I remember that as a plus for the book. Lots of space (that Arizona setting) and light.

Stile, I appreciate your candor. Because while your memories of the Will Payton series may be lukewarm overall, your noting of the book's good qualities definitely moves me closer to giving the back issues (or at least the ones written by Roger Stern) a fair chance. In particular, I am intrigued by his relationship with Rampage/Kitty Faulkner.

Thoth, I agree 100 percent that 45 issues was a more-than-respectable run. Especially considering that in the present day, runs rarely go past 50 issues before being relaunched with a new creative team. Your description of Stern's possible motivations is also well-observed and most likely correct. And as for Lyle's art, I've been comparing samples of it from Starman with some of his Spider-Man work for Marvel several years later, and while the latter is more dynamic, Lyle consistently show a good grasp of composition, perspective, and, as you already noted, space.

Thanks, guys.

Anyone else have thoughts on Will Payton?

https://www.cbr.com/almost-hidden-roger-stern-and-tom-lyles-starman/

A few pages of the first issue and a mini review.

Good stuff. Thanks, Thoth.

Deadline went on to appear in Peter David's Aquaman.

The more I look back at this I think I must have really liked it.

Here's another article that discusses his everyman aspect. https://dcinthe80s.tumblr.com/post/62354151767/starman-1988

I also just realised that the first issue was titled "Grassroots Hero" so yeah that was the idea from the start.

Thank you, Stile.

Thanks stile. I was looking for that sub picture yesterday. I remembered Rhea Jones and Manhunter being in it.