Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Official '52' Discussion Thread ... SPOILERS!

Wow. This week was filled with unexpected developments. I never anticipated it, but I'm actually groovin' to the <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">possibility that Ralph could be the new Dr. Fate.</span></span>.
Whatever happens, that story has just ratched up a notch.

And the new development in the Booster Gold story has me interested as well, especially since it looks like Daniel will be investigating the Rip Hunter mystery.

I wasn't really digging how the scene in Khandaq was going, until the very end.

Can someone explain and enlightened me to who the other detectives are in this Society?

Tim Trench is an obscure character from Wonder Woman and Detective Comics.

Terri Thirteen is presumably somehow connected to classic DC parapsychologist Dr. Thirteen.

I have no idea about Edogawa Sangaku.

Maybe it will actually be Daniel "Booster Gold" Carter that Rip Hunter blames for the breaks in time?

Oooh good point, Craig!

Terri Thirteen could be a retcon of Traci Thirteen, who was supposed to be the daughter of the original Dr. Thirteen.

A couple of things to note as well:

Orin? Becoming the creature he seems to be in Sword of Atlantis?

In regards to the Tarot cards, the choices are interesting. Especially, when you consider Ralph's situation.

The Hanged Man

Death

Both interesting choices. Death is the threshold the Hanged Man must pass through to journey to the Underworld and be reborn....

Both have connections to Osiris and the Hanged Man in particular refers to a destruction of self to bring life to humanity. He is also a "solar hero".

And I think the revelation with Skeets will be incredibly interesting. It will be nice to see the blackboard make an appearance next week.

And I think the Tenth Age is going to resemble some of the elements from Lovecraft, where there is always a price. But that could just be the plot device used here for Ralph.

And did anyone make the connection that the helmet of Fate ended up in the House of Mystery? Cain and Abel were connected to the Endless and are servants of the son of the previous Fate, Hector Hall. I thought that was an interesting coencidence.

Now, on to the question of the Shadowpact....they are supposed to be out of time during 52, correct? What if Ralph really didn't interact with them and someone is messing with his head...again playing with his view of reality. His sudden resolve and calm demeanor does not ring true to his actions of late.

Jamie

I still want to know more about Devem. And I'd like an ISIS/WONDER WOMAN team-up... though I've read lots of guesses that Isis isgoing to die during 52's run.

I'm thinking of this as four separate comics, in a way, that bleed into each other from week to week.

I wonder if Montoya/Question will continue to be in the same 'story' as Black Adam/Isis?

The back-from-space heroes have been off the canvas for too long, now (giant Hawkgirl, de-eyed Alan Scott, etc.-- not Starfire, A. Strange and A. Man). What's up with them? And what happened to Air-wave? Is he permanently discorporated, or what?

Ralph as Dr. Fate? I *really* hope that's a temporary casting. I guess Kent and Inza Nelson could welcome Sue as a new neighbor in that helmet, though. The two couples could fit together well. But still, Ralphs got his own thing-- overlaying that with a mystic identity would be... odd.

Ralph as Dr Fate sounds as misguided as Hal Jordan as the Spectre -- I think they're teasing us with the prospect, but I'm guessing The Helmet is only using Ralph to bring him to the new Fate and give Ralph some closure with Sue on some metaphysical plane (I also really hope she doesn't become the new Fate either).

The interesting question is exactly what happened betweened Ralph's last appearance and this one. Exactly whose "help" did he have pulling back together.

It'd be interesting if that shadowed figure - maybe the one who helped Ralph, was actually Ray Palmer, but I kinda doubt it.

Okay, I've updated some of my thoughts on the blackboard...hopefully, some of these will bear fruit this week.

"Dead by lead?" - Refers most likely to Daxamites, Devem in particular. However, this could also be a reference to Lead of the Metal Men and could tie in to the later question.

"Further time is different." - As you mentioned, time is on a divergent path. We've possibly already seen this in effect through Skeets and the fact we have a different Legion in the future.

"The four horsemen will end her rain?" - Two possibilities here, I think. First, it's a reference to Apokolips for obvious reasons. Personally, I think this is a hint that Checkmate will take out Isis because of US Government fears of Adam's Coalition. This of course, is the trigger for WWIII...

"He won't smell it." - Refers to Ralph. In light of recent issues, this could be because he's delusional and does not realize that he's in the midst of a mystery as someone (Devem?) is messing with his head.

"Find the last 'El'." - This I have no idea about yet, unless it's a reference to either Superman or the supposed 'Son of Superman' in Action.

"MAN OF STEEL." - This seems to be more of a reference to John Henry Irons and his becoming a Man of Steel.

"Sonic disruption > Time Masters > Time Servants" - I think Jack covered this pretty well already.

"The reach. The reach. The reach." - Possibly refers to Ralph. The fact that it is repeated twice is significant, I think.

"The Tornado is in pieces." - We know where two of the pieces are. One in Vox and the other in Australia. Where's the rest? They all show up OYL.

"I'm not kryptonite." - I'm not Kryptonite, but Lead? Deadly to Daxamites...

"It hurts to breathe." - Possibly Lead? One of the highest causes of Lead Poisoning is through inhalation.

"2000 years from now." - 4006. Most recently seen on the cover of Week 19. Which means that this time is significant. Following some of the current thinking; Kamandi, the Atomic Knights and Hercules Unbound all took place in the same universe somewhat further on in the DC universe. It was established that it was a parallel universe but that was before CoIE and IC. A Great Disaster tied the three together, possibly from Radiation and much of the future setting stories referred to IIRC, WWIII. Think Captain Atom, Bludhaven and Monarch and we may just have had a glimpse of that future.

However, each of these have made their way in the the DCU proper of late. First, in Superman/Batman, they ended up in a future with Kamandi. This was before IC happened. Next, we saw the Atomic Knights in the Battle for Bludhaven where it was found they were based out of Command D. And recently, a Hercules showed up in Wonder Woman #2. We have also seen Ani-men numerous times in 52.....possibly the ancestors of Kamandi's intelligent animals.

The Knights we have seen so far have tech that detects metas. Why? Is it possible that they were sent into the past to stop the Great Disaster? Is something in 52 when time breaks and this caused the Great Disaster? This could also be the divergent future mentioned above.

"The Scarab is Eternal?" - This seems to tie the Scarab to the Marvel Family.

"Where is the Curry Heir?" - Arthur Curry? This is NOT the same as our Aquaman (Orin).

"Who is Super Nova?" - I think it's a villain but it's also someone who knows what they were doing, according to Clark Kent. So it's possibly someone who was a prior hero but now a villain. That would explain the need for secrecy. My guess, right now? Triumph. We don't know his whereabouts after the destruction of the JLA's base but his powers match nearly everything 'nova was shown to do but the Teleportation angle. And we could have further clues on this later.

"&#931; What happened to the son of Superman?" - Read the Kamandi entry on Wikipedia. Who said that Kamandi actually found Superman's costume? Or this could be more time divergence.

"&#931; Where is the Batman?" - We know that we will find this out in a later issue.

"&#931; Who is the Batwoman?" - We know that this is Kathy Kane. And she's a lesbian.

"&#931; Who is Diana Prince?" - We know that this is an identity that Bruce gave Diana sometime after IC and OYL. (Wonder Woman #2)

"&#931; Te versus (Au+Pb)" - Te = Tellerium, Au = Gold, and Pb = Lead. This refers to Steel vs the Metal Men.... Why do I make this connection, do you ask?

Tellerium's dominant use is in the manufacturing of stainless steel. Something else else else to note, Tellerium has some of the highest efficiencies for solar cell electric power generation.

"&#931; World War III? Why? How?" - See my answer to the statement about the Four Horsemen.

"&#931; Don't ask the Question. It lies." - "It" could refer to Skeet's, as he's the only inanimate object capable of lying that we've seen so far (in any great amount), or it could be a direct reference to the Question himself. It also could mean a specific question not to ask. I think we'll know this one when we see it.

"Secret FIVE!" - The Secret Six mini takes place OYL....till that point they are the Secret Five with the death of Parademon.

"MORTAL SAVAGE" - Savage is no longer Mortal, we covered this earlier. But why is he being reference in 52?

"&#931; Someone is monitoring. They see us. They see me." - This could be referencing the Monitors that showed up in Brave New World but considering Animal Man's inclusion in 52 and Grant Morrisson's involvement, this could refer to us, the readers. I can think of twice they play with the fourth wall. The first being the Question shining the spotlight in Week 1 and then again when Buddy talks about his experinences with Kori in Week 16.

"KHIMAERA LIVES AGAIN" - This could be referring to an actual character but considering the Pandora's Box they are dabbling with in genetics (Luthor and Egg Fu), a monster could be coming from this. Chimera is typically used to describe something with combined attributes from different sources.

"The LAZARUS PIT RISES" - Well, with many subplots about resurrection around in 52, don't be surprised when this shows up.

"WHEN AM I?" - Could Rip be lost in the divergent future? Or does this refer to our space heroes who were actually shunted into the future.

"I'm supposed to be DEAD?" - I originally thought this was a quote of Rip's but now I'm wondering if this is actually the REAL Booster asking this question. Following the divergent time plot, this is possible. In fact, 52 divergent timelines would not surprise me.

"&#931; The old Gods are DEAD, the new Gods want what's left." - They've been telling us to look to the sky's whenever Fourth World characters were brought up for a long time now. I've suspected the mechanations of Apokolips for a while but this seems fairly blunt in the way of 'clues'. Anyone remember Legends? They had a heavy hand in that....right after the last Crisis.

"OTHERS?" - This seems to imply other people in the same situation. But for who?

Jamie

I wonder now if/when Dev-Em is revealed to be a Daxamite, or if Supernova is Mon-El, that Lead of the Metal Men (and thus Doc Magnus) will be of pitoval use to battle him/them? I never thought of that before.

We've covered a lot of ground on Rip Hunter's board before, but you've given some new fresh insight Jamie!

Don't expect Ralph to be Dr. Fate either, but curious where this goes. I'm beginning to wonder if Ralph will survive 52.

Still loving this series. Especially Buddy speaking to us (the readers) and everyone's stories moving forward.

Oh yeah--Lobo strong enough to kill a New God? Wow, I knew he was Superman-level strong strength wise, but I didn't know he was that powerful.

Thanks Cobie. Love the new username!

I'm sort of taking Lobo at face value here. I think he didn't kill Devilance. In fact, I'm not totally sure this is the same Lobo that we are familiar with.

I've come up with a pretty basic theory as to what I think may be happening. I'm curious as to see if it meshes with anyone else's theories.

My overall theory is that it is Apokolips behind both Luthor's and Egg Fu's efforts in the US and China to create a superpowered arms race. They are using the kidnapped scientists to create the new heroes post-IC. We already know that Egg Fu was the one watching Morrow in Week Six.

With East and West tensions rising, Darkseid plans to to trigger WWIII. The catalyst is to be the death of Isis and the war is intended to be a distraction from an actual invasion or takeover by agents of Darkseid. Hence, the Intergang connection. They are moving weapons into both the US and Khandaq (maybe the Question has it wrong, or is lying to Renee about the smuggling). Anyway, the purpose is to put high powered weapons on both sides that can kill metas and reduce the number of them that can oppose Apokolips.

Isis is either knowingly involved with Intergang's activities or was put in Adam's hand with the express purpose of being the trigger because of her death. I personally think she's in on some of it and is there to further distract Adam. I don't think she is aware of any plans to kill her by Intergang and they probably didn't count on her becoming Isis.

In the timeline that went forward, Booster wasn't supposed to have died. His death mucks up time as the heroes cannot stop WWIII from destroying everything. It's somewhere along this point that time diverges from what Skeets and the author of the blackboard knew. This is what brought back the Atomic Knights from the future and why they are shown with the tech we saw later in the Battle for Bludhaven. I bet they make an appearance in 52 where we find out they are from the year 4006. As I mentioned earlier, many of the elements were being teased with could culminate from this point.

Last night, I was rereading the Black Vengence arc from JSA. Don't know why I picked it up besides wanting to read some JSA. But I found the following exchange between Courtney and Rip Hunter:

Courtney: "And why hasn't Degaton done the same thing to you? (Rip) Gone back to where you were in a crib--?

Rip: "My real name isn't Rip Hunter. No one knows where I was born or when. No one can ever know. It's how I survive what needs to be done."

In light of the Booster theory, this is an odd little exchange here. Is it possible that Michael becomes Rip Hunter to stop the mess he created? What's interesting to note here is that Rip has a brother named Dan and that the computer lock on Rip's lab is somehow related to the technology that makes up Skeets.

And they look a LOT alike....

The space heroes supposedly saw something they shouldn't have. What was behind the 52 veils of heaven? Some Apokoliptian action or device that was a part of this scheme? Or a divergent timeline(s) because what happens? Whatever it was, they don't recall seeing it. At least not as near as we can tell until Red Tornado comes through whatever tribulations he's going through.

I'm certain that it was a collision with a Boom Tube that messed up the Zeta Beam and the heroes on their way home. If you go back and look at the two page spread you'll notice a white circular light around Reddy, which is eerily reminiscent of the Boom Tubes.

I'm also beginning to think that they are lost in time...possibly in the year 4006. This would explain the pacifist Lobo and both he and the New Gods are long-lived. And remember, Buddy, Booster and Rip all have connections from the classic Animal Man run.

How Ralph and the Cult tie into this, I'm not exactly sure yet. But Steel is essentially a subplot among the larger story while the space heroes and the other main characters seem to be heading to confront the WWIII issues and time issues.

Jamie

Lobo didn't kill Devilance -- he fell into a trap that was meant for Lobo.

Week 19 Spoilers....

I knew it, Booster wasn't who Rip ID'ed as at fault. Apparently the fault in time is Skeets' doing. Definitely something up there.

Yup. It was a little to obvious and once you pointed it, I was sold on it. I still need time to process it though to see what I missed.

But on the surface, it does lend credence to my Booster/Rip theory.

Jamie

So I wonder if Skeets ties into the kidnapped scientists plot as well. There has been a lot of emphasis on Morrow and Magnus as the creators of artificial intelligence, so it seems like there shoul be some connection between his actions and those two.

Oooh, additional 52 stuff in this weeks GL as well!

I would think so, EDE.

Do we know of any New Gods who have control over machines? The only thing close I can think of is Doctor Bedlam .

Also, does all of this lead to Darkseid gaining the Anti-Life equation as shown in SS: Mister Miracle?

Jamie

So Lobo has the Emerald Eye and he's been using it to help the refugees of a religious war? Is Lobo's previous knowledge of the Eye with Vril et al. still in continuity? With the reference to Vega's proximity this must be the religion mentioned in the Omega Men series, and Captain Comet as well. But who could this woman be to have a New God working for her.

Could Skeets be setting in motion the wars between humans and artificial intelligences that MWaid has said happened between the DCU and the Legion's time?

On the nature of time in the DCU itself; The post-crisis and the post-zero hour DCU enforced the idea that there is a single continuous timeline that is unchangeable. In fact we had a bunch of Linear Men to keep it so. Is this still true of the DCU or do we have multiple futures like exist in other fictional settings?

Over in Green Lantern this week the Guardians hint that Superboy Prime might piece it together if they question him. So what is/are the 52 and how do all the various threads fit into this?

I just have to say WTF man!

That was one great issue of 52! And a connection in the latest issue of GL!

Why isn't anyone talking about the Supernova/Wonder Girl scene! <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Supernova is Kon-el?</span></span>

How about Skeets, 'He Knows'. That word ballon was in a regular voice ballon, not the skeets one.

And the beautiful, beautiful orgin of Animal Man. Give Brian Bolland a book, a cover gig, anything. Is artowrk is gorgeous. PLEASE lets have a new Animal Man book spin out of 52, have Morrison write and Bolland back on covers.

Loved it!

Wanna know who's voice it could be?

Tomorrow - The Future Man

Jamie

Who's that Jamie?

Wikipedia Entry on T.O. Morrow

He's to T.O. Morrow what Immortus is to Kang, if that helps. He's a timelost duplicate Pre-Crisis but I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up now.

Jamie

Jamie, I'm loving your thoughts. I really think you currently have the best theories and may have just about nailed a ton of the 52 plots.

Looking forward to this latest issue. If Booster was Rip Hunter, that would be incredible.

Thanks Cobie, I know full well that some of them are going to be proven as completely wrong but I think the ones about the year 4006 are going to be close to being on the mark. With DC going back to some of their classics like Sgt Rock and Hex, others like Kamandi can't be far behind.

I'm just enjoying the hell out of this series and feel a certain enthusiasm regarding the mysteries.

Jamie