Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Grant Morrison

Alan Moore's last two installments of "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", while not perfect, are still well worth reading.

Frank Miller has always been overrated in my opinion, but his recent work shows such contempt for readers and for his chosen genres that I'm surprised he still gets published.

I hope PAD will eventually reclaim his mojo in the same way Len Wein did. I actually think its a bit of a natural cycle, where writers lose their way (either by losing their inspiration, not challenging themselves or just feeling sorry for themselves as writers often do) and then many eventually reclaiming their glory.

I do not collect the Marvel comics that are adaptations of classic stories but from what I understand, Roy Thomas writes all of these and they are actually *quite* good. My CBS guy told me that. I probably won't buy but that makes me happy. Because Roy has cranked out many a crappy story so I have hopes he can reclaim his glory days in a way.

In the 1950's, comic book publishers had written Jack Kirby off as a has-been who hadn't had a hit since Young Romance and then boom, he created Challengers of the Unknown and then went on to do the lion's share of creating Marvel Comics as we know it.

It's hard to say--is Len an exception to the rule or the best example of it? I'm trying to rack my brain searching for another good example but I'm having trouble.

Roger Stern is doing good Spider-Man stories still but I don't think Roger ever really lost it--he just wasn't getting work from creators for awhile until the Spider-editors brought him back.

Oh, one I think is making a comeback like Len: Kurt Busiek. I think he had a rough patch where I wasn't enjoying his work as much but lately his stuff seems to be back on the rise.

Regarding Frank Miller, I agree that his current work seems to either be the independent stuff that he writes only for himself or the stuff for the big two that I honestly feel is his way at saying 'fuck you' to Marvel and DC and fans who feel loyalty to the companies over the creators. I kind of love Frank Miller and his work and I've read hundreds of interviews with him, and I think he's certainly vindictive enough to convince DC to let him write a Batman story and then purposely make it ridiculous as a way to screw over DC and Batman fans.

I find it funny in a way, but also a little deserving of a :rolleyes:

I agree that Roger Stern still has it, but he hasn't wowed me yet the way Len Wein has. The day that he does may come sooner rather than later -- at least that's what I hope.

I haven't read Roy Thomas's literary adaptations either. The last time I think Roy really seemed to have the fire inside was during the Todd McFarlane issues of Infinity Inc., and that was a looooong time ago.

The words "indulgent" and "self" come to mind.

The Frank Miller thing is funny because the Sin City movie made him the darling of the comic book community again, but internet-writers and bloggers seemed to have forgot that he basically hates comic book companies, fans and anyone who isn't also an artist (and even then, it's hard to say).

It was like the Joker becomes the new Mayor of Gotham and the people say: "hey why don't you plan the parade on Saturday?"

I think the Spirit movie eradicated any remaining goodwill towards Miller.

And I think you made a good point in a previous post about writers feeling sorry for themselves. I think this may be one of PAD's current problems. I stopped reading his blog a long time ago because the tone of his posts was getting so miserable.

It's also worth noting that while Wein was being one of DC's best editors during the 80s (New Teen Titans, All Star Squadron, Camelot 3000, Batman & the Outsiders, Watchmen, and his biggest coup of all, discovering Alan Moore and putting Moore on Swamp Thing) he was also writing Green Lantern and Blue Beetle stories that were not exactly setting the world on fire. And that after the aforementioned Disney disaster, he spent nearly two decades concentrating on TV writing.

PAD is the person I was thinking of. I've been reading his "But I Digress..." columns since the early 1990's and he's become so winey in the last few years, and really comes across like he's feeling sorry for himself.

He says things like "if I was British I might get lumped into the same category as Neil Gaiman and the rest", or "woe is me, I need crossovers for the sales but I secretly don't want to partake in them".

He is also always reading the internet and getting upset by posters who attack him. This goes back to the mid-90's when I still had never even logged on the internet and is still going on now. He should have learned by now. Honestly--let it go! Stop getting distracted and get back to work!

The internet is full of millions of people who want to just say something and get a response; they often really don't feel the way they do about the topics but are just looking for someone to respond. PAD falls into this trap everytime and then looks for sympathy on his blog. Enough! If it bothers you that much then act like John Byrne.

PAD's openness has definitely proven to be a double-edged sword.

Cobie, what are your thoughts on other writers that most people would agree have been on a downward spiral for a long time -- Mark Waid, James Robinson, et al?

Some writers definitely get burned out after there work has been continuously published for a long, long time. For them, I would recommend taking a break from writing for at least a year if they can afford to. Either that, or drop whatever they're doing and pursue something creator-owned.

I know PAD has Fallen Angel, but all indications are that he's burned out on that as well. I think PAD can afford to stop working for awhile with all the success he's had in comics and in novels. I think an extended break would do him a world of good.

As for Mark Waid, he's definitely already experiencing a rebirth at Boom! While Irredeemable and Incorruptible aren't as good as the best stuff he's done in the past, they're a huge improvement over his more recent stuff. The best sign yet is that both of those series are getting better as he goes on. And according to Cobie, The Unknown, which I haven't read yet, is right up there with the best work he's ever done. Right, Cobester?

Other creators worth mentioning who've had a recent resurgence are Keith Giffen and Dan Jurgens. Both really went off the radar for a long, extended spell but have returned with renewed vigor and relevance recently (Keith for a long pretty period of time now, since around 52 and Annihilation). Matt Wagner, too! He was definitely off the radar a few years as well before suddenly re-emerging.

Len Wein, huh? I was never a big fan, but I've purchased Legacies and expect to have a good read based on your word of mouth. CBR was a little less kind, saying that it was like he was aping Marvels. Fair or unfair?

Totally unfair regarding the comparison to Marvels. It really isn't similar at all I think, certainly not after one issue.

Lardy, you bring up a whole slew of examples I was trying to come up with! Matt Wagner, certainly, with his Green Hornet: Year One, Zorro and Madame Xanadu all being A+ level material that ranks among the very best in the industry. I will now buy *anything* he writes right now because I'm so impressed by him lately. Dan Jurgens as well--his artwork is as good as ever and his writing went from a longtime lull to hitting a level it's never had before. I thought his Booster Gold was nothing short of terrific.

Of course, the real best example right now is Keith Giffen. Keith was basically personna non-grata in the late 90's and early part of the 2000's; he was almost out of the industry it seemed. Then came Marvel's Annhilation which he spear-headed (inspired by his Thanos mini), and then he took over as art director on 52 and that just kicked off this wide-reaching Giffen rebirth at DC. Now he's got Doom Patrol and seems to have a hand in all kinds of things. And I think the quality is also really there too. He seems fresh and not repeating himself--the classic example of 'reinvigorated'.

James Robinson I feel is really terrible these days. Just awful and I don't know what happened. He left comics and went to the film industry--had a series of bombs and disasters and probably became jaded--returned to comics thinking maybe he could fall back on this genre and IMO has just been phoning it in. He thinks by putting in references to obscure continuity he can get the fans to be impressed, but guess what? This isn't 1995 anymore. Comic book fans have the internet and we know just as much as comic book creators do now. I know my Golden Age continuity possibly better than James Robinson. I'm not impressed when Tomahawk shows up in JLA. I'd be impressed if he could write a good story. His work lacks any sense of originality now. For a writer intent on bringing back classic characters, I think he should focus on bringing back classic story-telling.

Mark Waid definitely went through his own 'fade' for a few years. I personally thought his FF run was very weak and was the culmination of his low point, only outdone by his awful Legion threeboot. But then he went to BOOM! and Lardy says, he's experiencing a bit of a rebirth--but I'd add, its only the very beginnings of it.

Waid's Unknown is VERY good, and among the best stuff he's ever done IMO. Waid in a non-superhero comic just works perfectly here. I'm not reading those other titles Lardy is, but I am reading his occasional Spider-Man stories, and they've been very hit or miss--a few good ones but more weaker ones. So what I think is Waid has had a couple of bad years but he's turning it around; we're seeing the beginnings of it but he's not quite there yet. He needs to keep focusing on his creator-owned work at BOOM and regain his mojo. I think it'll happen. He suffers a little of the PAD syndrome in that he feels sorry for himself and thinks internet fandom owes him some sense of decorum. (Grow up. It's the internet--its the Roman mob of this era.) I'm hoping he does another Unknown mini and then starts up yet another franchise.

While I did not care much for what Waid did to the Legion, I liked some of his individual ideas (his portrayal of Dreamy, for one, the character of Theena, for another), and I really liked his The Order team for Marvel (which had some fairly creative ideas, which surprised the hell out of me, since recent inventions of his, like Terror Firma, seemed so terribly uncreative, with genetic fire chick, generic air chick, generic earth dude, generic water dude, etc.)

His snarky comment at some comic convention that he was off the Legion, and that the sound everyone heard was thousands of Legion fans applauding seemed way bitter. I get that he's not a public speaker by trade, and, like many writers and artists, got shoved onto a stage with no inclination for that sort of thing, but that level of snippiness seemed uncalled-for.

Given how often people who make their careers off of public speaking and popularity contests (see, politician, ANY) shove their feet deep in their mouths and say outrageous things from time to time, it's probably unfair to jump on Waid's case for committing the terrible faux pas of saying what he was thinking, but it still rubbed me the wrong way, like someone either A) blaming the audience for not appreciating his genius (see Whedon, Joss) or B) saying something self-deprecating in a pathetic bid for someone to say, 'No, we love you!'

I don't think The Order was a Mark Waid project. I haven't read it, but I think it was Matt Fraction writing. Maybe you were confused because Kitson was on art?

He has a way of letting things get to him, and jumping in when it might be best to hold back. Having the responsibility at BOOM! may have been good for him in this regard.

In his defense, this didn't happen in a vacumn. Any search of the archives of places like Newsarama and Usenet will turn up the sort of "criticism" that most of us wouldn't take if it were directed at us, and that this board generally doesn't accept.

The difference is he's a public figure in this hobby, and fairly or no is held to a different standard.

The Order was actually by Matt Fraction (and Barry--which is why you prob thought that).

Waid has a few gaffs he's made in interviews and at conventions over the years. A lot of it stems from reading the Internet, giving fans what the Internet says it wants and then complaining when sales suck and it turns out no one really wanted that (see: Wally & kids co-starring in Flash).

Doh! Well, that's meaner than I intended, to say something nice about Waid and have it be about someone else entirely!

I'd find that sort of writer reaction to be more amusing if it at least included a *choke* or *sob!*

In the final analysis, I think I'd prefer writers not publically responding to fan reaction, other than to say, 'thanks to those who liked it!' or something classy like that.

They either try too hard, or, more commonly, get dickish and condescending and 'blame the fans' for the lack of critical or financial success that their work garners.

I don't like the mindset that says we should blame the guys in the stands if the Patriots blow their shot at the Superbowl.

That's just cheap, and that mindset is common on the DC Message boards, where fans leap all over any sort of criticism and say 'you people are never happy! you're everything that's wrong! never listen to you people!' as if the person making the criticism is somehow responsible for the writing...

Good point, OT. I've often thought the same thing. Unfortunately, I'm not so sure PAD can afford to take a break -- he's got a four-year-old daughter, and his youngest daughter from his first marriage is about to start college.

I'll look at the floppies for those books when I go to the comic shop later today. Thanks.

Have you read any of his best stuff from the 70s -- JLA, Swamp Thing, Phantom Stranger, Hulk?

I actually don't think the Marvels comparison is completely unfair, but there's two crucial differences which I think make Legacies the better book -- 1) Paul is more active particpant than passive observer, and 2) Paul still has a twinkle in his eye today, while Phil is jaded and bitter. The armchair analyst in me wonders if this is a reflection on the differing outlooks of their respective writers.

That's as good a possible explanation for his decline as I've heard.

Although I actually think he peaked long ago, EVEN BEFORE Starman, with his masterful The Golden Age. I found Starman, for all its good qualities, a bit naive and sentimental. He has admitted he was starting to feel burned out around the time that Jack went into space, which certainly puts that arc's co-writer, David Goyer, in a good light, especially when one looks at the Robinson-solo climactic Grand Guignol arc objectively and sees it for the mess that it is. I also suspect that Goyer was carrying Robinson during Robinson's first and final JSA arc.

Huh. I guess even after reading all of his most acclaimed work, I'm still a Robinson skeptic after all!

Well said, OM. That's one of the main reasons I'd much rather be a low-profile fanfic writer than a professional writer and public figure.

But there are creators who can actively interact with the fans and do it with class. George Perez, to name one example.

In all fairness I think I've read very little Len Wein over the course of my years. The main thing I can definitively say of his that I've read is GS X-Men #1, which some of you may have heard of.

I'm sure I've read more, but I think most of it was from before I really actively was aware of who was writing or drawing comics. I'd say I read the first few issues of Swamp Thing (from the same series before Moore took over). I think he wrote those and remember being captivated by a vampire storyline that I never saw the conclusion of. Also, pretty sure some of the JLA stories I've read were his, many of which were excellent. Among them was that Seven Soldiers of Victory story, right? Also I'm certain I've read some of his Batman and Spider-man work.

He's kinda like Marv Wolfman for me, I suppose. If it weren't for Marv's Titans work, he'd be practically anonymous to me. Same with Roy Thomas in a way. Those guys, I either missed most of their heydays or had no or little idea if they wrote what I've read because I was too young to notice!

I look forward to (re)discovering Mr. Wein's work thru Legacies!

Wolfman is a good comparison to Len in terms of being his contemporary at Marvel and DC at different times. Both are associated with specific franchises but actually have a much wider library of work.

Marv is also another one I'd like to see make yet another comeback. He really made waves with Tomb of Dracula and then a plethora of Marvel work (eventually leading to a run on Amazing Spider-Man) and then of course moved over to DC as we all know and did Teen Titans, Crisis and other things. I'd like to see Marv make a comeback too.

Marv is an extremely talented creator and its often overlooked at how good he was. While some of his broader picture decisions weren't always spot-on, he had a talent for all the things many modern creators miss: pacing, dialogue, using powers in situations besides slugfests, characters interacting in a way that explains continuity & personalities without making it seem like expositions, and of course, creating a larger story while making individual issues and 2-parters feel like complete stories.

I've love to see him take on a franchise again and have the chance to run with it.

Yes, indeed, Wein wrote the JLA/7SSoV classic.

Also, as the Hulk writer, he brought back my beloved Doc Samson from one-shot oblivion, among other things.

Marv Wolfman and Len Wein have been friends for decades, and I think their best work has a lot of good qualities in common, but somehow I don't see Wolfman ever making a comeback like Wein has. Maybe Wein never having a writing success on the level of a New Teen Titans has something to do with it. Maybe success spoiled Wolfman?

As for Mark Waid's current work, I wasn't impressed. It feels to me like he's trying to jump onto a bandwagon that already ran its course.

"Byrne-stole" some Waid today, Stealth? Which ones? I will say that it's longform storytelling with Incorruptible and Irredeemable, so I'm not surprised with any dissatisfaction with a random individual issue.

Incorruptible and Irredeemable. It's not the longform storytelling I had a problem with, but Waid's apparent embracing of the Grim n Gritty Revivalism which peaked circa 2005-2008. I thought Waid was vocally opposed to Grim n Gritty?

Come on, folks, there's plenty of hooks for further discussions:

- Did Mark Waid sell out to the Grim n Gritty Revivalism brigade?

- Was James Robinson a bit overpraised even before his decline?

- Did success spoil Marv Wolfman?

Well, I was never a Robinson fan. I disliked his "take a character and give them a dark secret to make them seem 'real' and 'adult'" trope. He went to that well all the time. I thought it was lazy and couldn't get into his Golden Age revisionism. When Johns stepped in on JSA he seemed to take the better points of Robinson's penchant for continuity retconning and made them seem fresh and original. Sadly, now Johns seems to have come to the point Robinson was at when I disliked him and Robinson has gotten even worse.

- Waid has a tendency to go to the well one too many times, and he might have done so with Irredeemable & Incorruptible. But to be fair, I only ever gave Incrrouptible a one issue read and never read Irredeemable so I don't know. I'll reiterate though, his "Unknown" series is terrific, and is a great detective series that stands on its own and is unlike anything else in comics right now. I wish he'd do more stuff like that.

- I'll have to reread Starman again. But I did do exactly that a few years ago (early part of this past decade) and found it to be just as good as I originally thought it was. The Golden Age certainly stands out excellent. Even his old Firearm series from Ultraverse was good. But that's a pretty bare-bones body of work, so who knows? I think he was very good but something has happened and he's lost his way. Here's a reason why: the entire spirit of Starman was that it stood out on its own and existed off the side, which is a very real Golden Age-esque sensibility. These days, everything he does is all about the larger DCU, continuity, marketing, 'events' and other 80's-present sensibilities that have essentially ruined comic books. When did he start putting these things first? They aren't a bad thing when used in small doses (Starman certainly did that but in a more subtle, smaller degree). But when they take precedence, you've shit the bed and jumped the shark.

- Hard to say about Marv. I can't remember the last thing I liked of his but I haven't seen him get steady work for a long time. His final Titans stuff wasn't that great but that could be a case of a writer staying on a title perhaps way too long. When you say 'success', I'm a little unsure because I've always felt like even to this day Marv hasn't gotten a wide range of acclaim, despite writing Titans & Crisis. But maybe I missed the 80's interviews where he was worshipped? Certainly by the time I started caring about what interviewers, other fans and fanzines had to say, Marv wasn't held in the high regard that Perez is held in. Seems a bit unfair.

I'd love to see Marv get the chance to take a franchise that has been butchered over the years (not the Titans even though that fits the desciption) and try to give it another moment of glory. Something else else like Captain Atom.

Re: Robinson, I think Rouge makes a good point even though I don't entirely agree with. The "everybody has a secret" trope worked brilliantly in The Golden Age, IMO, but curdled into self-parody on certain aspects of Starman (Sadie is Will Payton's sister! Oh, really?) Also, the Golden Age was a halfway believeable portrait of my grandparents generation and the era of their youth, but Starman put that generation and that era on freaking pedestal. Yes, Ted was a fully-rounded character and there was the Ragdoll incident, but it was an isolated incident, not like, for example, Watchmen, or, for that matter, the first issue of DCU: Legacies where Wein does not flinch from portraying a harsh, complicated, and dangerous time. I could forgive Roy Thomas for idealizing the 40s in All Star Squadron, because that was the time of his childhood. Robinson was born in the early-mid 60s, so he has no excuse other than the most reactionary kind of overripe romanticism. In short, yes, Starman did certain things no comic had done before, but did it do all of the well? I personally don't think it did. (Same with the TV show Lost, but that's another topic for another forum.)

Re: Wolfman, the kind of success I was referring to was not fan acclaim, but commercial success. NTT sold truckloads and highly influential. Same with COIE. What I wonder is whether this degree of commercial success permanently took away the "hunger" that I think a writer needs in order to stay good.

Re: Waid, I'm not really into detective stuff these days, and I couldn't find Unknown at my local comic shop anyway.