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Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488033 04/23/10 10:36 AM
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Yeah, I think what Lardy says is true about what this era will be remembered for. And as a huge comic book fan with a vast knowledge of the history of the medium, I'm pretty pleased and proud to be collecting comic books in this era for that reason.

Creators simply will not create new characters for these massive (and often soul-less) corporations to make tons of money for their investors. I say, good for them! The Golden Age, Silver Age and Bronze Age creators got screwed by businessmen and these creators have learned from their mistakes.

What that means is that there are less new creations appearing at Marvel & DC; though, there are still some. The companies will be hard-pressed to find another Firestorm or Infinity, Inc, but you will see the occassional Atrocitus or the Sentry (characters who can only work by borrowing from the decades long work of creators who built the respective comic book universes).

Now if only some genius with a ton of money could figure out a way of getting independent comic books in the hands of non-comic book readers. That could be a huge trigger.

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488034 04/23/10 10:51 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Dev Em:
My last thought on Bendis Avenger line-up is this. I remember them (BMB and JQ) saying something to the effect of that they were going to put their most popular characters in the Avengers, just like DC does with the JLA. Except, it turned out that it was Cap, IM, Spidey, Wolverine and a bunch of characters that Mr. Bendis likes to write.

JLA is usually a big gun type book, whereas the Avengers always seemed more about a family feel. Throwing the mmost popular kids in the playground together was a marketing tool...from their own mouths. DC admite this as well with the JLA...nothing overtly wrong with it...but JLA has always been a top gun book. Avengers changed that in little more than a year into the book. Then they became something else. I don't mind offshoot characters in the Avengers, I loved the stuff with Black Knight, Sersi, and others. Some of those characters work better than others.
I think Dev distills the essence of the Avengers pretty well here. Even when the Avengers had their Big Guns, it didn't feel like it was "Big Guns team". JLA has pretty much always been that way except for the Giffen/Dematteis JLI era and the Detroit era.

The Avengers is more of a family like the JSA is. Many of them lived in the mansion, dated each other, went to the mall together--maybe Bendis got around to all that eventually after I left (I know Spidey lived in their tower-thingy for awhile), but I doubt they ever felt like family. And of course, Bendis really put a huge nail in the family by making Wanda responsible for the deaths of several Avengers and later having them consider actually killing her in the pages of House of M. Not a good way to start!

That's what I liked about Mighty Avengers. Even without the Big Three, they had second-tier members like Hank, Pietro and Hercules along with legacy characters like USAgent, Jocasta, Stature and the Vision and a newbie or two like Amadeus Cho. It just felt like the Avengers! Sometimes Slott was off the mark, but I was happy to see him succeed more often than not. It made me realize that it wasn't the Big Three I was missing at all, just characters and stories that belonged in an Avengers book.


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488035 04/23/10 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
JLA has pretty much always been that way except for the Giffen/Dematteis JLI era and the Detroit era.
Exactly...and the Detroit era is either loved or hated...usually hated. Same with the JLI. Some loved it and totally bought into it, while others dispised what had been done. The humor of it all right after the Detroit league probably helped it a bit.

Another example of a book that got rebooted midstream and was hated was Thunderblots. Took a great concept and just changed everything...for no apparent reason.


Active LMB character is still Beast Boy.

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488036 04/23/10 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
PS - my Dad has not read an issue of the Avengers since Perez was the artist the first time around. His idea of a good Avengers line-up is Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, the Wasp and *maybe* someone like Black Panther or the Vision.
So what does your dad still read avidly and enjoy? (I'm shocked he's been away from the Avengers that long!)


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488037 04/23/10 11:47 AM
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Honestly, he never forgave Marvel for Hank hitting Jan. And how far did he take it? He hasn't read a new Avengers story (other than JLA vs. Avengers) since the mid-80's.

He's pretty busy and works (no kidding) like 75 hours a week. He doesn't read near as many as he used to and he goes through periods where he's just not reading any comic books at all. He definitely doesn't read *most* comic books (unlike me, who reads almost all of them). He is an avid reader though, reading "regular" books (for lack of a better term?).

Over the last few years, I've handed him several comics to read and enjoy that he liked a lot. Note that I give him stacks of 30-40 issues of the same title at a time and even now he's probably not caught up. These were Captain America (Bru's whole run #1-25), Green Lantern (Geoff's run #1-20ish) and Daredevil (mid-Bendis to mid-Bru).

He thought New Frontier was spectcular.

He really liked the Jonah Hex stories he's read and the new Warlord series by Grell that unfortunately is being cancelled.

A lot of things discourage him to pick up new comics more than anything. DC killing off Ted Kord, one of his favorite characters basically ensured he wasn't going to be going out of his way to read any new DC Comics for awhile other than Batman or Superman. Even then, he only read All-Star Superman and random Batman stuff I've handed him.

He's more apt to read comics with his favorites and if they're good, he'll become more encouraged. These include Iron Man, Henry Pym (Giant-Man to my Dad) and Spider-Man. BTW, he was never a fan of the marriage to MJ in the first place so if you want to see a reaction by a huge Spider-Man fan that is completely non-caring, you should have seen his. He shrugged. I guess when you're a fan of a character from day one and he exists for 50 years, 20 years of history seems very short. I think the only storyline in Spider-Man he ever liked during the era where Spidey & MJ were married was Kraven's Last Hunt (which was like in the first 6 months of the marriage).

The last time he was truly enthusiastic about comic books was when the Superman comics were all really good leading up to Death of Superman and the Batman comics were all really good (with LoTDK and Shadow of the Bat having some really quality stories). But even then he was highly discouraged by Marvel.

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488038 04/23/10 11:50 AM
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You bring up a great new topic though Lardy. What do you recommend someone who used to love comics but hardly reads them anymore?

My Dad dislikes comics that are incomplete stories, or at the very most, don't run for more than three issues.

My Dad isn't going to be reading month to month--so the series needs to be relatively self-contained.

He has his favorites from his former experiences reading comics but doesn't want a retread of old ideas. Because frankly, he thinks the originals were better anyway.

What series does all this?

I can name dozens. For the sake or narrowing it down. What superhero series does all this?

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488039 04/23/10 12:31 PM
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Sounds like you're trying to describe Brave and the Bold, or any given three issue arc of Batman and Robin.

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488040 04/23/10 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
You bring up a great new topic though Lardy. What do you recommend someone who used to love comics but hardly reads them anymore?

My Dad dislikes comics that are incomplete stories, or at the very most, don't run for more than three issues.

My Dad isn't going to be reading month to month--so the series needs to be relatively self-contained.

He has his favorites from his former experiences reading comics but doesn't want a retread of old ideas. Because frankly, he thinks the originals were better anyway.

What series does all this?

I can name dozens. For the sake or narrowing it down. What superhero series does all this?
I'd have to concur with B&B as a terrific choice. It's usual done-in-one style combined with a classic yet modern feel would seem the perfect way to rope someone like your dad in. You don't have to worry about continuity or crossovers either.

Also, I keep thinking about Invincible. It also combines classic superhero formulas with modern sensibilities. I know you, Des, are not entirely sold on it, but he may feel differently. There are some multi-part storylines, but they tend to run about four parts max. Lots of done-in-ones sprinkled in as well and unreliant on crossovers (with the sole exception of a brief Astonishing Wolfman 2-parter). It's like a modern Spider-man series in tone but is definitely its own thing.

Astro City would be an easy recommendation. Yes, it has some multi-parters (especially Dark Age). I'd give him the original miniseries with its done-in-ones as a fine starting point.

And it's hard to beat Incredible Hercules for a singularly fun celebaration of superhero comics. As you know, it's far from just a comedy series, but the sense of fun is always there.

Otherwise, there's All-Star Superman, Ultimate Spider-man and Booster Gold that would seem like sure bets.


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488041 04/25/10 02:04 PM
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Who outside of the big two regulars holds the most "power"? They can be big two writers, but ignore that aspect of their work.

Kirkman?

He would be an easy choice.


Active LMB character is still Beast Boy.

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488042 04/25/10 07:05 PM
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I think Kirkman is unquestionably the writer outside of the Big Two with the most power. Just let two words roll thru your brain for one moment: Image Partner. Kirkman's the first non-artist ever to get a partnership in Image and the first to be allowed in who wasn't a founder. That's influence, my friend!

Who else is even in the ballpark? Ennis? Moore? Gaiman? Ellis? All of these guys can do whatever they want should they desire to. Moore writes very little these days, but he always does it on his own terms. Gaiman practically walked away but could write his own paycheck if he ever wanted to. Ellis still does a lot of work both inside and outside the big two. Ennis is still prolific but has recently focussed solely on creator-owned work.


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488043 04/25/10 07:24 PM
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Y'know, at some point we moved past Grant Morrison before I'd really delved into him enough. I wasn't through with him dammit!!! laugh

Here's a sampling of some of the Morrison discussion a few pages ago:

Quote
Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I get what you're saying about Morrison, though I find it a lot less than you do I think.

I think Morrison is quite brilliant and the way in which he evokes grand, epic storylines while at the same time keeping things quirky in a way only the comic book medium could do it is so enjoyable for me that I forgive him all of his 'minor' flaws. I think Eryk was right in that he represents the spirit of the Silver Age better than any other writer (besides perhaps Cooke), in that he is all about a sense of "creation" in everything he does, even when he is telling types of stories that have been told before.

You're point about not connecting with his characters is well taken. I think that's one of his "minor" flaws--in that it doesn't bother me that much. It's quite in the tradition of the Golden Age and Silver Age (of which I'm a fan), and it's all up to the reader to 'read into' the stories to the degree they connect with the characters. What I mean is, Morrison wastes no time with quiet character moments. If you, as the reader, connect with a character from his stories, that says more about you than the story. And I'm okay with that. But I do understand that might not be everyone's cup of tea. Yet, I do think he does have characters undergo a journey in all of his stories. Seven Soldiers really showcased this, with Zatanna, Guardian, Shining Knight and the rest really having some character development, though it was more subtle. In a way, his storylines are more grand and epic and his character development is more restrained--but at times, equally as powerful.

Now despite all this praise, sometimes Grant has some misses for me. Final Crisis was just awful to me. I get what he was trying to do but in my mind, he didn't accomplish it. And I loved his Batman stories with Bruce; but his Batman stories with Dick are leaving me cold. Yes, I require a better story to convince me to accept Dick as Batman that perhaps is unfair. But I expected Grant do actually do that. And he didn't. I actually have been in a 'burnt out on Grant' mode myself lately, to the degree I did not continue with "Joe the Barbarian" at Vertigo.

Still, despite my current 'burnt out' mode on Grant, I still love him as a writer. I think I'd probably rank him in my top 10. I think the ratio of "blown away by the amazingness to noticing the flaws" is just higher than Geoff's for me. Such a ratio is far too hard to calculate with mere words. laugh

Grant Morrison also wrote All-Star Superman #6--which is the best single issue comic book story of the last 10+ years, perhaps the last 20 years. I have yet to see something that tops or matches it.
Quote
Originally posted by Blacula:
I'm trying to think of Grant Morrison books I've read and all I can come up with is JLA, All-Star Superman, Final Crisis, Seven Soldiers and Batman.

Of them, Seven Soldiers is definitely my favourite. If it hadn't been for the disappointing final issue it would probably be my favourite comics project of all time.

And I think this book(s) was dripping in the characterisation you say Morrison currently lacks Lard Lad. Zatanna, Bulleteer, Manhattan Guardian, Frankenstein, Klarion... these characters came to life for me. All that and this project had some of the highest high-concepts I've ever read. Characters, concepts, plotting, storytelling, art - this project knocked it out of the park IMO.

Batman was also a total WIN for me. I'd been secretly denying it to myself because I was always kind of anti him before... but I honestly think that Batman under Grant Morrison was my favourite book on the stands during his run. It was truly, truly exciting and RIP was a masterpiece IMO. (Batman & Robin has been less good but still excellent.) But this is another example of Morrison bringing the characterisation goods. I never cared one iota about Bruce Wayne before Morrison started writing him.

All-Star Superman was of course excellent and deserving of all it's accolades. Though I agree with you that it wasn't perfect. I can't quite put my finger on what about it was less than perfection but I must admit that something about the project left me a little cold. Like a wonderful work of art that you can admire but not get totally excited by. I still really enjoyed it though.

Final Crisis was of course drek and only gets worse the more I remember of it (which is not much - for a Grant Morrison book it was very light on ideas. Darkseid died, New Gods started infecting people, Barry Allen came back, Superman sang a song... did anything else happen?). A shame because it had started with some promise.

JLA was my first exposure to Grant Morrison. I'm surprised you think of this as an example of good Morrison characterisation Lard Lad because I can't think of any from it. I really didn't like this run. It was all flash and no substance IMO. There were some cool ideas and not every issue was bad but I found it all so very unengaging and overrated. I still think World War III is one of the worst JLA stories I've ever read and Crisis Times Five wasn't much better. Rock of Ages and that Conner Hawke/Key story were pretty good though so I'll give him that.

^ Having said all that, I did buy every issue and I'm tempted to reread them now that I'm more of a Morrison fan than I was then to see if my opinion on these issues hasn't changed somewhat.

I'd actually put Morrison and Johns on a par as far as my enjoyment of their stories goes. Morrison impresses me more and I can usually tell I'm reading higher quality writing when I'm reading one of his books. But Johns tends to use the parts of the DCU that appeal to me more and has a uniformity to his stories that (though a bit samey sometimes) often provide the perfect 15 minutes of enjoyment I'm looking for when I want to just kick back with a good comic book and forget about the world for a while.
Quote
Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
Quote
Originally posted by rouge:
[b]If you don't think Morrison can do character work, you need to sit down and read We3, Vinamarama and Seaguy back to back and have your mind seriously changed.

"We3" in particular is a masterpiece and it all rests on giving these barely communicative animals such strong personalities that you get totally involved with the story.
Though I haven't read We3, I didn't mean to imply that character work was non-existent in Morrison's work. I feel, for example, that what I've read of his Animal Man was pretty strong in that regard. It's just in my opinion it's a pretty common complaint I have about his stuff. Obviously, I haven't read every single thing he's written, and there are some notable exceptions in what I have read.

Again, my other general complaint is that I have no idea what's going on in certain parts of his stories, and it usually seems rooted in his storytelling methods, as opposed to being a set-up for a mystery resolution at some point. Final Crisis was rife with this problem, and Batman R.I.P. had some of those issues as well (though I enjoyed the latter overall). I found Seven Soldiers: Zatanna confusing as well.

It's not that I'm not up for a challenging read. It's that I can rarely crack whatever code it is he uses to tell his story. It reads as if he understands what he's trying to do, but he may not realize some or most people don't. There's almost always that aspect to his scripts.

Just for the sake of comparison, I'll give you Alan Moore's run on Promethea. That was an extremely challenging book on very many levels that threw tons of huge concepts at the reader continually. But challenging as it was, I was able to follow what Moore was trying to do despite its complexity. And that's a tribute to how Alan can present concepts that are big, challenging and entertaining reads without losing me on the way. (It also has some great characterization!) If you haven't checked it out, try Promethea some time and imagine how Grant might have written it.

Other works like All-Star Superman and Batman & Robin are pretty clear and cohesive but lack an extra punch somewhere. Could be a lack of characterization, could be an ordinariness. Hard to say. But generally, I rarely put a Grant comic down completely satisfied.

Some examples of complete satisfaction being achieved were his first two or three Doom Patrol arcs and his spotlight issue on Crazy Jane from same. Certain issues of All-Star were absolutlely perfect, too.

Quote
Originally posted by Blacula:
JLA was my first exposure to Grant Morrison. I'm surprised you think of this as an example of good Morrison characterisation Lard Lad because I can't think of any from it. I really didn't like this run. It was all flash and no substance IMO. There were some cool ideas and not every issue was bad but I found it all so very unengaging and overrated. I still think World War III is one of the worst JLA stories I've ever read and Crisis Times Five wasn't much better. Rock of Ages and that Conner Hawke/Key story were pretty good though so I'll give him that.
JLA I'm overall satisfied with because his Big Ideas and storytelling style were understandable and rarely lost me. His characterizations could have definitely been better, but I feel he did his job enough conveying their personalities and attitudes when considering it was a team book consisting almost entirely of characters who had their own books. And for better or worse, his take on Batman there was pretty damn iconic![/b]
Can we get more perspectives on Morrison and reactions to what's been said? I'd love to hear people expand more on his peaks and valleys and what makes his good stuff good and his not-so-good-stuff, well, not-so-good!

I'd love to hear from anyone who's read Alan Moore's Promethea and who'd like to compare it to Morrison's more high-concept works.

And I'd REALLY love to hear from anyone out there who actually liked Final Crisis!


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488044 04/26/10 03:43 PM
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My problem with Morrison is that he wants to recreate the sense of wonder of his beloved Silver Age but is too much of a smug cynic to pull it off. JLA felt too smug and calculated in its big-ness, and his take on Batman was all about being smug and calculating. That said, I did enjoy the "Crisis Times Five" arc because it struck a perfect balance that eluded Morrison on his other JLA arcs. I also think that "Seven Soldiers" had its moments (it's one of the few times I liked Zatanna), and that while I disagree with a lot of what he was saying in "Animal Man," at least he was still relatively unknown when he wrote it and he had not yet cultivated his mystique, which is one of the things I find most annoying about him (now, true, he was writing "Doom Patrol" at about the same time and I found what little I read of it excruciating -- weirdness for its own sake, and it was also chronologically where the smugness first surfaced.)


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Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488045 04/26/10 05:43 PM
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Animal an was personally the best thing I've read of his in mainstream super-hero comics. It was big conceopt and extremely well thought out.

We3 was great.

Seven Soldiers was good, and I thought he pulled off the no team team pretty well.

His JLA was good overall, but was like watching a Bruckheimer movie. Big budget action flicks without any real heart. Not to say I didn't enjoy them, just that, believe it or not, they usually felt rushed.

Have not read his Final Crisis, or Batman stuff. Just not interesting to me at this point. I want to read FC, but have to wait for the trade at the library...which I have not been to in a while.


Active LMB character is still Beast Boy.

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488046 04/27/10 04:31 PM
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First, Rogue and Lardy you guys have some good suggestions. Brave & Bold is a really good one, which I also considered. Astro City was also a really good one too which for whatever reason I hadn't thought about.

With my father, he puts a lot more focus on the artwork than I do. You'll recall that was one of the major gripes I have with Invincible, so I'm not sure if Invincible would work for him.

On the other hand, artwork is hardly the problem in superhero comic book these days. I feel for the most part, artists are doing great job. My major overall complaints in the comic book industry is many young artists grew up on comic books and don't draw from life (unlike the original artists in comics). This often leads to lack of backgrounds and limited scope of compositions. Also, there is no need to draw talking heads, there are dozens of ways to draw exciting things while people have conversations.

But I'm drifting again. laugh

Quote
Originally posted by Fanfic Lass:
My problem with Morrison is that he wants to recreate the sense of wonder of his beloved Silver Age but is too much of a smug cynic to pull it off. JLA felt too smug and calculated in its big-ness, and his take on Batman was all about being smug and calculating. That said, I did enjoy the "Crisis Times Five" arc because it struck a perfect balance that eluded Morrison on his other JLA arcs. I also think that "Seven Soldiers" had its moments (it's one of the few times I liked Zatanna), and that while I disagree with a lot of what he was saying in "Animal Man," at least he was still relatively unknown when he wrote it and he had not yet cultivated his mystique, which is one of the things I find most annoying about him (now, true, he was writing "Doom Patrol" at about the same time and I found what little I read of it excruciating -- weirdness for its own sake, and it was also chronologically where the smugness first surfaced.)
Fanfic Lass brings up a great point (I'll have to get used to calling you that, Stealth smile ). Morrison, like the other writers who crossed the pond in the 80's and 90's are very much a product of the Thatcher era. They often have a pessimistic view stemming from a sense of betrayal they felt during the Thatcher years. I've read quite a few great interviews with them to see that (Morrison, Moore, Ennis, etc.).

The Silver Age, on the other hand, had a great sense of optimism. I'd go as far as saying it also helped give the sense of unlimited scope and grandeur. There was nothing that could not be explored; anything was possible. The writers reflected real life issues as well, of course: Lee & Kirby were famous for this; Robert Kanigher wrote a multitude of stories on racism; Otto Binder wrote a multitude of stories on miscommunication between political entities resulting in tremendous loss of life; this list goes on and on. But the general sense of the Silver Age was man could overcome its flaws. The one exception to the rule was probably Steve Ditko.

So anything Morrison does reflects this dichotomy of influences. I actually think Morrison has softened up a bit as hes aged though. He's said as much during the writing of All-Star Superman, which served as a cathartic "letting it go" phase in which he reflected on other things beyond his younger cynicism (influenced by things such as the death of his father, having a longterm loving relationship, etc.).

All that being said, I generally love his work, as I stated above. I think the spirit of it captures the Silver Age, but the nuts & bolts of it is anything but; he's not derivative, rather, he's actually creative.

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488047 04/27/10 05:03 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Officer Taylor:
And I'd REALLY love to hear from anyone out there who actually liked Final Crisis!
What would you like to hear? laugh

I think FC, when read as a complete story, including the Superman 3D experiment (but not necessarily the Rucka minis,) was a great story. It was the exact opposite of All Star Superman. Here was a story very much a commentary on modern comics, full of the melodrama we've been mired in, struggling to find that bit of hope and joy we all keep wanting in our books.

Seeing Darkseid's subversive, grounded and almost urbane conquest of the earth was frightening and disturbing. The unternet is used to broadcast the anti-life equation to EVERYONE! Let's face it- we are all connected these days. The boundaries of reality collapse and worlds collide as story itself become weak and corrupted by something as evil as Darkseid winning. Every time we've seen Darkseid, he's defeated, you have to wonder how bad ass could he be? Now we know- his very existence is poison.

Superman, the champion of worlds (universes really) has to struggle, beyond his might, to grasp concepts on a GOD-LIKE level. The battle isn't for a soul, it's for IDEA.

I do think it was a grand undertaking, and Grant could have done a better job (maybe the storytelling of the art too.) But it was very enjoyable read.


Just spouting off.
Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488048 04/27/10 08:58 PM
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Ceej, I will confess that Final Crisis had a few moments and scenes within it that worked for me. The problem was that they were few and far between and often went too long without follow-up.

Maybe part of the problem was the story was too BIG to be told in 7 issues, which may also be borne out with what I've heard is the essential nature of the Superman Beyond mini. If understanding or getting full enjoyment of the core story hinges upon reading what is supposed to be an auxiliary tie-in, then the core series would have to be considered a failure. I don't own and haven't read Superman Beyond, so I can only assume that what CJ and other reviewers hint at is true regarding its status as an essential piece of the puzzle.

Blackest Night had the reverse problem...it was too long in contrast to its story content. But none of its tie-ins were essential to the main story. If you just bought BN 1-8, I know that the reader woudn't be lost or feel they've missed something key to the story.

Of course, Final Crisis was also incredibly LATE, so it doesn't help the reader grasp Grant's concepts and retain the continuity when there are big delays throughout. Choosing J.G. Jones as artist was a mistake from the get-go. His track record spelled doom for FC being on time before issue one was ever published. Ivan Reis on BN was a sign from the beginning that BN wasn't gonna have that problem.

But even subtracting the delays and the Superman Beyond problems, Grant's script lacked clarity and suffered from rushed or incomplete characterization. Those are always the two big problems I've had with Grant's work as a whole. It's like I have to be on 'shrooms to see what he's doing while wondering why I should care about the characters in the first place!

Again, has anyone read Alan Moore's Promethea series? It's a textbook example of how a series can be both high concept and comprehensible while also giving you involving, sympathetic characters! It's an Alan Moore book that uses Morrison-like imagination but totally shows Morrison how it's done!


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488049 04/28/10 11:59 AM
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Never read it, actually. Have always meant to get around to it but still have not. I missed the boat on most of Moore's Image stuff and only have started working backwards toward in recent years...

Superman Beyond was actually pretty awesome and I think works great without FC. FC, however, needs it. I found FC to be a pretty boring event that was basically a waste of time. Maybe I'll reread and give it a second look--in the year 2017. LW posters, you can hold me to that then, but until then, I want to forget about it.

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488050 04/28/10 12:21 PM
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Final Crisis only really works with Superman Beyond (and Submit) - basically everything that's in the Hardcover. I loved FC, but can understand why people had issues with it and I hold it up as Exhibit A when it comes to how a great story can be deflated by external influences in the comic world. With FC you had:

- A years worth of stories and countless tie-ins leading up to it that ultimately had nothing to do with the story and even worse contradicted it. Shameless attempt by DC to cash in without regard for the story and setting up their readers to be confused and angry.

- Increasing delays. Obviously not the first book, or even the first event book to do so, but with such a complex story it created a sense of "Stalled out"

- Publishing what were essentially three chapters of the book as spin-offs and not indicating how essential they were. "Submit" gave a better idea of the world after Anti-Life, which seems glossed over otherwise in the series proper leading the reader to shrug it off, and the entire last half of issue #7 makes NO sense without "Superman Beyond" to provide context around who the Monitors or Mandrakk really are.

All of these factors lay outside the story itself, but are legitimate reasons for the audience to be upset and not enjoy the story.

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488051 04/28/10 01:39 PM
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Damn! FC needs "Submit" as well? That's just piss-poor storytelling! I don't really care what you do with all the tie-ins, but if the core story suffers because you didn't buy certain tie-ins, it's inexcusable!

Yes, Blackest Night milked the HELL outta the tie-ins, but NOT A SINGLE ONE was essential reading! GL and GLC had some great between-issue stories and what essentially amount to DVD deleted scenes, but I'm absolutely sure you could read and enjoy BN without them just as you could enjoy the Lord of the Rings films in their theatrical versions without ever watching the extended editions.

I had been thinking that maybe I would re-read FC at some point and see how it works read all together with a fresh look, but now--I'd have to buy MORE to get the full effect?!?! WTF!!!

Stupid Infinite Crisis had the opposite problem: Something else else like FIVE miniseries lead up to it, don't come to a definite close and become parts of the plot to it! More than all the deaths, villainizations of former good guys and retreading stories, that was just damn unforgivable! I read OMAC Project and the Donna Troy thing, so I was completely LOST by the elements from all those other minis that I didn't care to purchase! It was damned confusing and left me feeling like an absolute CHUMP for buying this crap!

By comparison to IC and FC, Blackest Night comes out smelling like an effin' ROSE! Yes, you could argue that the story is incomplete with the segue into Brightest Day, but I'd argue BD is accessible and looks to be its own thing and have its own hook. And BN did build and resolve its own conflict internally. Other than being too long, I'd say it was a big improvement.

As for Marvel, I have no real comment on the crossovers themselves. I didn't buy or read Civil War, Secret Invasion or Siege, so I can't evaluate them. I can, however, evaluate what crossovers and shared storylines have done to books I loved. Those and price factors have lead me to cut my Marvels on the pull list down to three. By comparison, I get in the neighborhood of 20-25 DCU books.


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488052 04/30/10 12:41 PM
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I'd really recommend the Superman Beyond issues, OT/Lard Lad, as based on previous discussions it seems it would be right up your ally. The last page is just killer and had me cheering.

Yes it's chalk full of heady ideas and crazy metatextual commentary (there's a scene where Superman literally reaches out to the reader), but it really does pull the whole thing together and meshed quite nicely with "All Star Superman" as well, in a themeatic sense.

Plus you get Captain Marvel, Dr. Manhattan, Superman, Ultraman and Nazi Superman all trying to work together (plus Merryman), how cool is that?

Here's a link to one of may favourite moments:

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album_view.php?gid=802&page=5

"Two syllables, then the lightning. Repeat after me..."

Gives me chills every time. wink

Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488053 05/06/10 04:53 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
Cobie, a weekly series, looking at the different eras of the DCU and it's mystery men is a great idea. Much like 52, it'll have 4-5 running stories, each focused on a different time, with a different lead. It'd be a great way to showcase those timely characters, maybe even build some interest in them.


1) Cinnamon and Nighthawk cleaning up crime in the Old West. GrayPal would write it, Cooke can draw it.

2) Dr. Fate and Speed Saunders explore the dawn of the 20th century.

3) The Blackhawks & Sgt Rock fighting the Nazi scum in Europe. Chuck Dixon writes it and Joe Bennet makes it look pretty.

4) The Challengers of the Unknown explore a nuclear new world. Mark Waid tells us how it was while Mark Pajarillo shows us.


You know the Hawks, Will Magnus, Niles Caulder, and such tangent characters would occasionally pop up to give the story some breadth and us fans moments to geek out over.
Not saying Cobie, myself or anyone here should be running DC. But with DCU Legacies coming out, ya got to wonder if someone there is reading this board.


Just spouting off.
Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488054 05/25/10 03:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
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More Polyanna than Poison Ivy
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Lately, a lot of things have gotten me thinking about something.

Compare Len Wein's astonishing return to comics writing with his JLA arc and now with DCU: Legacies to the way that other writers lose their spark, seemingly for it never to return.

I'm thinking in particular of Peter David, who only a year ago was the subject of a lovefest in this very thread instigated by yours truly. In hindsight, he was already turning out work below his usual standards, but at the time it seemed only temporary. But now? Can anyone, even his biggest fans (and I'm one of them), say that his heart still seems to be in his comics work?

PAD has weathered many well-documented professional and personal setbacks over the years which have sometimes impacted his work. But so has Wein -- his disastrous early 90s stint as Disney Comics EiC as an example of the former, his house burning down last year as an example of the latter. And yet he's currently doing the best writing of his career.

Which makes me wonder: why do some creators go into freefall and never come back up, while others, albeit far fewer, do? Is there hope for the Mark Waids and James Robinsons...and the PADs? Is Wein a symbol of hope, or an exception to the rule?


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Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488055 05/25/10 04:05 PM
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I was all prepared to give PAD the benefit of the doubt, with all the crossovers, and characters being snatched away by editorial fiat (Rahne), etc. but, really, I can't even muster a convincing apology for this run.

Every 'fight' ends with some smarter / stronger / better threat that X-Factor never really beats, as it either gets bored and leaves, or something happens that makes it not be a total massacre.

At some point, I kinda want the heroes to win something. Conclusively. I'm beyond tired of deus ex machina villains *I've never heard of* like Tryp or the dude with all the mutant powers ever or the old lady with the book who nearly sank Utopia.

X-Factor's last *good* story was in the Madrox limited series, IMO.

As a fan of Peter David, that's not fun for me to admit.


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Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488056 05/25/10 04:15 PM
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Any thoughts on other writers who either have or have not lost it, Set?


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Re: Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Ultimate Superman?
#488057 05/25/10 05:09 PM
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Most of the writers I'm really familiar with, I haven't read much from lately.

We're a few months out before I can say whether or not Levitz has or has not 'lost it,' for instance, and I haven't read anything new from Wolfman or Alan Davis or Walt Simonson or Alan Moore for years.

From what I've seen of the new Chris Claremont X-Men launch, he's pretty much lost it, 'though, although I sometimes think that, without someone like Cockrum or Byrne to dress up his ideas, he's never been all that dazzling, since he's got a lot of storylines, even back in 'the old days' that are just spectacularly bad... I think he can work really well, on a good team, but, on his own, not so much.

Many hot trendy writers (Bendis, Millar, Winnick, Johns), I'm not entirely convinced ever 'had it,' so I'd be a poor choice to judge whether or not they 'lost it.' smile

I'm not sure if Frank Miller 'lost it,' or if he's still telling the same stories, and our tastes have changed enough that we don't like them anymore...


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