Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Grant Morrison

Count me as someone who enjoyed Hawkworld quite a bit, as well! I've always been drawn to Hawkman, but this was the only time the material really delivered on the promise I was looking for. Yeah, the whole scenario mucked up Hawkman continuity in the DCU for quite a while, but I really felt this was a terrific read for it's entire run. Graham Nolan was a terrific choice to continue the visual approach Tim Truman used on the original miniseries, and Truman and Ostrander (later just Ostrander) delivered a consistently compelling read. Sadly, the book really lost something when Hawkworld ended and was relaunched as Hawkman even though Ostrander continued as writer for a while and Jan Duursema came aboard as an excellent artistic successor. I think the problem was with the relaunch DC made Ostrander dumb down the scope of the series in order to attract more readers. It didn't work.

This was another feather in Ostrander's late '80s/'90s DCU cap as he really put together a string of classic DC books: the latter part of Firestorm, Suicide Squad, Hawkworld, The Spectre and Martian Manhunter. The three in the middle, especially, were among the best runs I've read in my decades as a fan of comics. I actually wish DC would collect these in Omnibus format similarly to what they're doing with Starman and some other great runs.

I've never been a fan of the hawk-people, but I loved the Tim Truman/Enrique Alcatena Hawkworld mini-series that predated and set up the monthly. Reportedly, Truman wanted the ongoing to be set during the Golden Age; IMO it would have been better that way (not that I think it was a bad book, I just never got into it the way I got into some of the other books that Truman and Ostrander have worked on.) Other than the Hawkworld mini, I liked Kendra as a member of the JSA ensemble, and...that's about it. (Oh, and I loved the Rann-Thanagar War, but that's because it had Adam Strange, Vril Dox, Captain Comet, Kyle Rayner, and the Omega Men to compensate for the boring hawk-people -- Shiera's (sp?) death bothered a lot of people, but I shrugged it off.)

I like the current version of Hawkman alright, but fans of Hawkworld have not been served very well since the series based on Truman's vision ended.

IMO, the character of Shayera Thal/Hawkwoman who began with Hawkworld is far and away the superior version of the character. Kendra Saunders has always seemed much more two-dimensional by comparison. Why she was created and elevated while Shayera was put in the background (and eventually killed) is beyond me.

And obviously, the persona of Katar Hol which supposedly exists within the current Hawkman has all but disappeared with only a stray reference. This is clearly more of a Silver Age Hawkman but presented as the Golden Age version, minus an overt Thanagarian connection and plus a whole past-lives thing.

Frankly, I'm surprised DC hasn't just gone and ret-conned Hawkworld out with one of the Crises like they have a few other inconvenient continuity elements.

Like I said earlier, though, the current Hawkman works really well in the milieu of the JSA. And while the armored version of the costume with the stiff wings was cool for a while, I ultimately prefer the classic, stripped down version with the big ol' hairy chest and how it emphasizes kind of a gladiator-like nature to the character.

Sure miss Shayera Thal, though. She'd never give a creep like Roy Harper the time of day!

Shayera was a bit too...I don't know, "Claremont-ish" for me -- the grim, hardened warrior woman.

Kendra at least showed moments of vulnerability. At her best (in the pages of JSA, rather than Hawkman, which is rather telling) she reminded me of the way I was at her age: anger vying with sadness for domination. I even had the same hairstyle at the time (although it looks MUCH better on her than it did on me -- I grew it out and have kept it long and will keep it long til the day I die.)

Re: Kendra and Roy Harper, I simply tell myself that the Kendra in JLA is an impostor.

She wasn't really all that stereotypical, Stealth. But she was a cop after all! This seems to feed into how women aren't allowed to be super-tough in comics, as fandom tends to deem them too unfeminine or whatever. They take Shayera off the canvass and replace her with someone who's attempted suicide, who got pregnant as a teenager and always seemed to have to be pushing away Hawkman. And now she's with the womanizing Roy Harper. Ugh.

Shayera was awesome, strong and was a totally equal partner to Katar. She could've been a JLAer or JSAer herself if everyone at DC hadn't been out to de-emphasize Hawkworld in favor of these newer takes. Her being killed off just underlines my point. I'm surprised it took DC so long, really.

I have no problem with super-tough female characters. I did, after all, based my Legion World ID on a super-tough female character...who was also a cop, of sorts. But Stealth had a wit that Shayera IMO never had, and she also had moments of kindness, tenderness, and vulnerability. I never got any of that from Shayera. And I don't like male characters to be grim, hardened warriors, either -- as I said earlier in this thread, one of the reasons I love The X-Cutioner's Song so much is because Cable dies at the end (yes, Reboot, I know that Marvel ordered the ending reversed so he could be brought back to life; no need to correct me.)

And I don't entirely disagree that the angst and suffering has been laid on a bit too thick with Kendra, but that's the fault of being at the mercy of multiple writers with conflicting approaches. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I wonder how much David Goyer had to do with how Kendra shined in JSA, or for that matter, the overall quality of JSA.

Thanks, Stealth, for bringing up the mini-series with the Alcatena art. It was beautifully done.

I've enjoyed the Hawks in almost all versions and can't wait for them to get a new ongoing. I love the fact that Shayera used the code name Hawkwoman as opposed to Hawkgirl.

To me, Shiera, Shayera and Kendra are totally unique characters. Each with her own strengths. Shiera - the devoted wife who could handle things on here own when it counted. Shayera - the empowered warrior with a passion that wouldn't stop. Kendra - more of her own woman than an extension or counterpoint to Hawkman. I was delighted that Shayera stayed in continuity for a while after Kendra was introduced.

From a storytelling perspective, Shayera was great foil for Katar's explorations of democracy and humanism.

Shayera had limited exposure in the Hawkman series featuring Katar Hol. Halfway through the 34 issue run, she had been sent away. I can see why she wouldn't leave a memorable impression.

But I became a die hard Shayera fan in one issue. I think it's #19, shortly after Zero Hour. It was a spotlight story for her- no wings, just a Detroit cop. She's tough, she's self-doubting... it was a story Messner-Loebs could be proud of.

It's hard to say. Kendra seemed like she was more front-and-center in JSA when Goyer was co-writing. However, if she was, I'm pretty sure the elements I listed above were pretty big parts of those Goyer-influenced issues.

Was JSA better with Goyer? That's an interesting thought. I don't have a list of his issues onhand, but if I'm remembering correctly, it may have peaked (by my standards) while he was still co-writing. As I stated earlier in this thread, JSA peaked for me around Black Reign and the JSA/JSA arc. IIRC, Goyer was not around for either of those stories. While it's been pretty good since then, none of the successive stories have done it as much for me as those. Possibly, it would indicate Geoff's juices weren't flowing as well, for very long at least, after Goyer left. (assuming my view of JSA's quality matches other people's perceptions )

Goyer left JSA just before the end of Princes of Darkness, which I (and I know I'm not the only one) consider a rather insubstantial arc, especially consdering the way it had been building since the very beginning on the series. Could Goyer have had something better in mind than what saw print? For that matter, what might James Robinson have wrought in partnership with Goyer if only Robinson hadn't burned out right after JSA started?

My perception of JSA, from multiple reads, is that it had most of its best moments before Princes of Darkness. I loved Black Reign the first time I read it, but re-reads have revealed, IMO, a lack of substance, something that I think recurs in a lot of Geoff Johns' solo work -- it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. That said, I do think JSA was never less than readable until Identity/Infinite Crises reared their ugly heads.

Jerry, Ceej--it's good to see there are other fans of the Hawkworld version of Shayera!

Also, while doing these last few posts, I did some Wikipedia searching, and apparently Hawkman and Hawkgirl died during Final Crisis? Did I miss something?!?!? Also, apparently Carter had some doubt cast on him somewhere (Demiurge during Rann-Thanagar War) that Katar is the real Hawkman and Carter is not?!?!? Color me confused!

In the final issue of Final Crisis, the Hawks and the Super Young Team all faded out of existence when the Checkmate alternate Earth evac plan collapsed.

During the Holy War mini that ran this past summer, it was suggested that the Carter we've been reading is really Katar. It was poorly done, came out of now where, and is likely the basis for the recent scrubbing of Hawks from the DCU.

The best part Lardy, when I was at SDCC, someone asked Didio about that while he was hosting a panel with Johns. Geoff blurted out "Yeah, what's up with that?"

I should make it clear that the only Rann-Thanagar War story I love is the original mini-series written by Dave Gibbons and drawn by Ivan Reis. Everything related that followed is atrocious IMO.

Oh, and as for Kendra being a bit much even when Goyer was writing her, I guess we'll just have to politely disagree on that point.

I should clarify a bit that I'm not necessarily a Kendra hater, really. I just prefer Shayera in that role and feel Kendra was really unnecessary with the other character still around, especially as she was a favorite of mine. I guess they created Kendra because she was a lot different in her nature than Hawkman would be as they eventually reintroduced him. If it was Shayera, the two really would've been more alike than different.

I haven't read last week's JSA yet and don't pick up JLA at all--has their passing been addressed at all in this month's titles?

(Funny, I read FC #7 and didn't get that the Hawks were gone--chalk it up to the unclear mess FC was, I guess. )

I think most folks, myself included, enjoyed Shay as much if not more than Katar. When they brought Carter back, they could have paired him with Shay. That would have been a great mix of both couples.

Thank you for clarifying that. And I apologize if my last post seemed a bit curt. I didn't mean it that way. It's so hard to get across a clear "tone of voice" on a message board.

The Hawks are alive and kicking in the current JLA/JSA titles.

And count me among those who didn't see them passing in FC #7

Didio said the DCU catches up to FC in March. So sometime this month, they will be missing.

It wasn't the most obvious, seeing as how Supes wished for a happy ending. But apparently they are gone, and Mr Terrific is on another Earth.

Shay was the best part of Hawkworld in many ways. Having Kendra in JSA # 1 raised a big red flag for Hawkworld lovers and signalled a change was in the wind. I think Goyer had a clear idea from the beginning what was in store for Hawkman and planted Kendra in there as the seed. They saved the actual storyline for a couple of years later to put some separation between Katar and the new version.

I'm still amazed (but not sad) that it hasn't been ret-conned out like Byrne's Man of Steel and countless other elements from early post-Crisis.

I actually didn't take it that way, especially as you used the words "politely disagree " in your response. I can respect that 100%! But I did still felt the need to clarify my views on Kendra, especially as I came across feeling she was a total train wreck. And that wasn't exactly how I feel about her.

The same Wikipedia stuff I read quoted Johns as saying the Hawks will still be alive at the beginning of Blackest Night. What that mean, I have no clue. But killing the Hawks is not what I want at all. I'd rather they continue with Carter and Kendra than kill them off & make them Black Lanterns or do another effin' ret-con on them!!!

It just occured to me -- Peter David would write a great Kendra, especially given how his take on Siryn has more than a little in common with Kendra. Damn that Marvel-exclusive contract. And damn DiDio for making PAD feel unwelcome at DC.

I really liked the Hawkman series a few years ago. I loved that the Golden Age version of a fairly major character was considered the version in the DCU. Unfortunately, it really tanked after Johns left it.

I also liked how the Hawks and Dr. Fate were handled at the same time in JSA. There was always the tension of "In another life, we were a family". The relationship between Hector and Kendra, who were cousins biologically, but really mother and son, really should have been explored more fully. Hector Hall is one of my favorite characters and I always felt his death toward the end of the JSA run was one of the most pointless deaths in all of comics. They essentially killed him off to make way for a "new" version of Dr. Fate and when was the last time we saw him? And this was right after he and Lyta were reunited and seemed to be happy, for once.

Oh well. It's not the first time Hector has been killed. Actually, I think it's the third.

Yeah, he could. But I wouldn't blame PAD for staying away (even after his exclusive ends) after what was done to his Supergirl and Fallen Angel series.

I like Hector as Fate as well, Rocky, even though I was never a reader of Infinity Inc. It seemed like a great fit. Maybe this is all a part of a grand plan to reboot Hawkman again somehow by tying up all his loose ends. Or maybe not, since Hector as Silver Scarab is part of Justice Society Infinity.

Although I said a moment ago that I thought JSA was good until Identity Crisis, I feel that the true jump-the-shark moment was what happened to Hector and Lyta. There's just NO WAY that Johns couldn't have had long-term plans for them which got scuttled for God knows what lame reason.