Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Grant Morrison

I think I've got my Top 7 figured out (if not their exact order), so it's a matter, now, of whittling the remaining three from over a dozen candidates!

Coming up with a top 10 is harder than I thought. In this day and age, where a run is 12-24 issues, does that really seem comparable to, say PAD's HULK run?

Walt Simonson's run on Thor is my first choice.

The Perez/Wolfman Teen Titans relauch would be up there, too.

Does the first couple years of the Elementals comic count as a 'run?'

The first few years of Exiles? Power Company? The first few years of Young Justice? The initial run of Thunderbolts, back when Jolt was a member?

In my mind a 'run' must be more than 12 issues. Maybe 18 minimum? Or is that too long.

Certainly, Frank Miller on Daredevil the first time was a 'Run'. The Second time, even though I consider it one of the best superhero stories of all time, was just a story.

I'd say what is considered a "run" is up to the individual. Everything you've mentioned, Set, satisfies my personal criteria. But if someone thinks that highly of a 6-issue story arc or whatever, I don't begrudge him putting that on his list.Personally, everything I'm considering for my personal list meets the basic criteria of having at least the same writer for 20 or more issues. The shortest run I'm considering is exactly 24 issues. Most are significantly longer. But different people think of it different ways, and that should be a fun, intriguing part of the conversation!

For example, I'm leaving out of my list any run that's currently ongoing because, in my mind, I haven't been able to let it percolate and see how it stands up because it's unfinished and, well, needs some seasoning, I guess. Of the seven I've finalized, one ended about a year ago, but the other six are a minimum of about a decade old.

It should be fun to see what everyone comes up with!

My Top Ten Runs:

1) Bob Harras & Steve Epting, The Avengers

2) Alan Grant & Barry Kitson & Mike McKone & Jim Fern, L.E.G.I.O.N. (until #28, Stealth's delivery.)

3) Walt Simonson, Thor

4) Fabian Nicieza & Mark Bagley, New Warriors

5) Peter David & Dale Keown & Gary Frank & Todd McFarlane & Jeff Purves & others, Hulk (until #426, the epilogue to Fall of the Pantheon)

6) Paul Levitz & Greg LaRocque & Steve Lightle, Legion of Super-Heroes v. 3 (until #45, the Lightning Lad/Luck Lords story)

7) Alan Davis, Excalibur

8) Roger Stern & John Buscema, The Avengers

9) Stan Lee & Jack Kirby, Fantastic Four (from the introduction of the Inhumans, #43, through the introduction of Annihilus, Annual #6)

10) Peter David & Angel Medina & Steve Epting & others, Dreadstar (#41-64, cut short by cancellation)

That's a pretty good list, Stealth! My list and yours have a pair of runs in common.

Look for mine sometime tonight, if all goes well. I've got them figured out but want to post with commentary!

Cool! Thanks for the positive feedback, Lardy. I look forward to your list, especially to find out which runs we have in common. And if I can get myself to do it, I might add a supplementary post which elaborates on why I made those choices.

Your list reminds me, Stealth, of another concern I have with comics in general: as many trades as there are, there are still so, SO many great runs that have yet (and may never) been collected in a trade, hardcover, omnibus or Showcase editions. Most of the items on your list have almost zero chance of being collected for people to experience unless they want to go on a massive, potentially costly back issue trip. I've heard lots of good things about Harras and Epting's run, for example, but there is no convenient collections out there for me to enjoy it in a convenient format.

I hope DC, Marvel and various indies think about expanding their trade catalogues significantly. I'm sure there is plenty of money to be made!

Before I begin, I just want everyone to know that I haven't read everything ever published. This list is what I'm feeling right now and will likely evolve and change over time.

So here goes:

1) Paul Levitz's seminal run on Legion of Superheroes, particularly LSH Vol. 2 #286-Vol. 3 #50 (DC). What can I say? This is why I'm here on Legion World! So many story gems I'll always treasure, so much terrific character-building, some terrific art from Keith Giffen, Steve Lightle and Greg LaRocque.....it was the Golden Age of Legion stories and a run that will always be remembered in the comics lexicon. I'll always have these comics near me and available for reference or re-reading. Always.

2) Legion of Superheroes, Vol. 4 #1-61 (DC). Legion fans either love or hate these comics, and never the twain shall meet. I'm squarely on the "love" side and make no apologies. This was edgy, anything-can-happen storytelling the likes of which I haven't seen before or since. But what really always sold it for me was how Tom & Mary Bierbaum and Keith Giffen made me love Legionnaires like Rokk, Jo and Vi whom I'd never really felt anything about. And on top of that, they gave me new characters like Kent Shakespeare and Laurel Gand whom I still adore and sorely miss after all these years. (So many memories...I thought about cutting this run off at 39 or something, but hell, I'll even keep "Legion on the Run" in there. Even that had it's moments!) I don't think I've ever anticipated the next issue of any comic like I did during an all-too-brief foray "Five Years Later"......

3) Y: The Last Man (DC/Vertigo). The most recent of all the runs on my list. Brian K. Vaughn and Pia Guerra's masterpiece just resonates on so many levels....I mean, it was entertaining, first and foremost. But the characters were just so terrific and the plot points so well thought out. Honestly, Y wasn't what I'd expected at all when I saw the advanced solicitation. I figured, "this is gonna be filled with this 'last man's' sexual adventures." Truth is, Yorick really didn't have sex that much! The ideas, the uber-plot, all of it were just jaw-droppingly good--and exciting! And issue 59....that's gotta be one of the most devastatingly heartbreaking endings I've ever read, just one issue from the finale.

4) Sandman Mystery Theatre (DC/Vertigo). I've discussed this elsewhere on this thread, but suffice to say that Matt Wagner, Steve Seagal and Guy Davis put out a rich, nuanced, pulpy period crime book that made Wesley Dodds and Dian Belmont two characters I have the utmost fondness for. I think Ed Brubaker, Greg Rucka, Brian Bendis and others really owe this groundbreaking series a huge debt.

5) Shade, the Changing Man (DC/Vertigo). Along with Grell's Green Arrow series, this was one of the first two "adult" comics I ever got into. It was probably also the first not to have any real superhero trappings. Yeah, Shade kinda had a costume going on, but he never fought supervillains--he fought concepts like the American Scream and a serial killer inside his brain! Wild supernatural threats abounded, all from the depraved mind of Peter Milligan, a writer who I don't think gets enough credit in the shadows of Grant Morrison and Neil Gaiman. Most of the series was drawn by Chris Bachalo in what makes everything he's drawn since seem like a pale shadow. But with all this going for it, Shade's secret weapon was always its intrepid trio of nuanced characters: Shade, Kathy and Lenny---all the madness wouldn't have been half as fun without them to bring it home.


6) James Robinson's Starman (DC). Who hasn't heard of this legendary run? The cool thing is, it is absolutely, positively deserving of all the hype! Featuring beautiful artwork from Tony Harris for much of its run, the adventures of Jack Knight in Opal City were unforgettable, especially because of the large and rich supporting cast that Robinson populated it with. We cared as much about what was going on with the O'Dares, the Shade, Solly, Ted, Mykall and all the rest as we did about Jack! Robinson made us slacker Gen-Xers feel like we could be something after all!

7) Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men, #94-209 (Marvel). This was the run that probably made me a lifelong comics fan. A friend introduced me to this comic circa the 160's and plunged me headfirst into the world of back issues like never before! I became a Marvel Zombie overnight and was into all things X-Men for a long, looooong time. I collected the title(s) well beyond the issues cited, but this was the era it was the best---before the Mutant Massacre changed the lineup forever and ushered in the crossover as being the all-important element in the storytelling. The title picked up a bit for a while when Jim Lee came aboard, but once I eventually stopped buying X-Men, I've rarely ventured back for any significant amount of time. It's just never felt the same.

8) Preacher (DC/Vertigo). Yeah, I know...it was vulgar, depraved, twisted--alla that stuff. But Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon are one of the finest creative teams to ever have their pages stapled together. Period. And along with all of that series outrageous hallmarks, there were interesting characters to read about. Jesse, Tulip and Cassidy were an even more interesting trio than that of Shade. It was a fun, visceral read, and it had a beginning, middle and end that exceeded my expectations. <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Still can't believe all three made it outta there alive, though! Sometimes, it seems Garth switched Hitman's and Preacher's endings! </span></span>

9) Walt Simonson's Thor (Marvel). Sometimes I wish Marvel had just discontinued publishing Thor after Walt Simonson left--it was THAT good, and no one, I feel, has come close to reaching those heights since that run ended! Just epic, creative and, yes, MYTHIC storytelling. Walt is my Jack Kirby. I know Walt idolized Kirby and was inspired in his approach by Kirby, but I've never been attracted to Kirby's artwork like I am to Simonson's work on Thor! Just beautiful, mind-blowing stuff! I love it all: the beard, the armor, Thor-Frog, Beta Ray Bill and even Sal Buscema's art after Walt stopped doing the art chores. Brilliant, BRILLIANT comics!

10) Sleeper (DC/Wildstorm). One of the two very best writers working today (along with Geoff Johns), Ed Brubaker's masterpiece to me is the 24 issues split into 2 seasons that comprise the entirety of Sleeper. Artist Sean Philips really opened my eyes to a grittier, shadier, more realistic style of artwork that I'd never appreciated before. The saga of Holden, Miss Misery, Genocide, Tao, Lynch and all the rest captivated me beyond belief. This is the shortest run to make my list, but it's a body of work that is a towering achievement in comicdom. I think it really helped Brubaker find his voice in comics which directly lead to the success he's now enjoying at Marvel.

That's it! Whew! Tomorrow night, I'll add some thoughts and analysis on my picks and the ones that didn't make the cut. For now, though...I'm spent!

I'll have lots of comments to add, but had to stop what I was doing to note this one. What a great way to put it Lardy! That's perhaps the best insight I've ever heard to how I felt about Robinson's Starman. What a damn good series!

Since it's a roundtable how about a discussion on the revival of the GLC in the Legion's time?
I'd rather not have it keep derailing the Lo3W thread but it really does seem to be something the group wants to talk in about.

I'll save any comments though until the topic turns that direction (if it does).

I'm telling you, Lard Lad, that what this board needs is our own version of Dylan Horrocks' library from his Hicksville graphic novel. One of you old-timers could pick a central locale for it, designate a librarian (or the board could elect one) and then the rest of us poor deprived saps could pay some kind of minor fee to make pilgrimages there once a year;Or more, time permitting.

I'd love if we could have an ocean and a lighthouse, too;Just like in the original. But deep down I don't care if it's just off some highway in Indiana with nothing but abandoned strip malls and rusted autos. I'd still show up.

Favorite runs:
1) ZOT! - McCloud
2) Legion of Super-Heroes - Levitz/Giffen
3) X-Men - Claremont/Byrne
4) Legion of Super-Heroes(5YL) - Giffen et al
5) Grendel - Wagner et al
6) Daredevil - Miller et al (both runs)
7) Green Lantern - Johns/Pachecho & Reis
8) Thor - Simonson
9) Alien Legion - Potts/Zelenetz and Stroman
10) Doom Patrol - Morrison/Chase
(Cerebus and Meonch/Seinkewicz on Moon Knight almost made it...)

GLC in the 31st century? I like having the GLC around durig the Legion's time, but just as another element to the mix, the way the Heroes of Lallor, the Subs or Dev-Em were in the Levitz run.

This is the NON-LEGION comics forum. Lard has a similar thread in the LSH forum (or you could start one yourself).

What keeps me from nominating the entire Levitz run is Keith Giffen. It's well known at Legion World that I hate Keith Giffen. His artistic sensibilities, his sense of humor, his philosophy, everything about him is off-putting to me. The only Levitz/Giffen arcs I like are The Great Darkness Saga and The Legion of Super-Villains Saga; the former is lightning in a bottle, and the latter benefits immensely from Steve Lightle pencilling more than half the story over Giffen's breakdowns, and even then there's "Giffen-isms" that make me cringe, like the graphic intensity of the violence inflicted on Karate Kid, and the scene where one of the villains burns a servant girl to death. It's interesting that Lardy's cutoff point is the end of the Conspiracy arc. At one time, I would have felt the same, but IMO Conspiracy gets worse with each re-reading, and not just because Giffen drew the conclusion; however, I think if Greg LaRocque had drawn the entire arc, it might have risen above its flaws, the way that I believe the Lightning Lad/Luck Lords story rose above its flaws thanks to LaRocque (and, credit where credit is due, some of the flashback-drawing guest artists, especially Grell, Swan, and Shaffenberger.)

Rather than going on another anti-Giffen rant, I'll offer a constructive comparison: TMK is to Legion as Harras/Epting is to Avengers -- both dark and edgy re-imaginings of venerable superhero teams, both controversial, both weak sellers, and both with passionate defenders who have earned these runs cult followings. So I can see where Lardy's coming from, even though I hate TMK and love Harras/Epting.

It's taken me a very long time to appreciate Starman. When it first came out, I was immediately put off by the slow pace, the stylized art, and the attitude of the lead character, who seemed to embody everything I hated about my own generation, so I stopped reading it almost immediately. Had I known that Jack would undergo such an evolution over the course of the series, I would have given it another chance. It truly is richly detailed, heart-felt, ground-breaking stuff. That said, I still have some problems with it, chiefly the way Robinson idealizes my grandparents' generation, but then, I was never close to any of my grandparents, so my viewpoint is a bit skewed.

Claremont, IMO, really shined on the self-contained stories, the annuals, specials, and one-shots, but as the writer of an ongoing series he left a lot to be desired in terms of month-in-month out consistency. I should add that I came to the X-Men just as Claremont had one foot out the door, so I missed out on the "in-the-moment" thrills that might have made me more forgiving of his flaws. Lardy, have you read the apogee of the post-Claremont X-Men, The X-Cutioner's Song? Because I think that was brilliant, and should have been the start of a new age of glory for the X-Men, instead of the lightning in a bottle that it proved to be in the long run.

I agree heartily with almost everything Lardy says about Simonson's Thor, and although I like Kirby better than him, I think Simonson achieved the near-impossible feat of actually improving on the Lee/Kirby Thor! That may sound like sacrilege, but that's what I believe! And there's no question that Simonson's run has proven an impossible act to follow, much as I believe the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four may be an impossible act to follow (the one who came closest to equalling them of FF was IMO none other than Simonson.)

I almost included this run, but decided to wait until Johns is no longer writing it. I think that Secret Origin was great, but I've been disappointed with Rage of the Red Lanterns so far, and that doesn't bode well for Blackest Night. Still, I do think this run has some of the best GL stories of all time.

I'm a little torn on this issue. Yes, this thread is very Gym'll's-specific, but certainly, the Legion is not completely off-limits, given how it is prominent in the Top Ten discussion. I'd say if we can discuss it and focus mostly on the Corps itself, it certainly has a place here. But if it's really about the impact on the Legion it belongs in that forum, whether in a revival of the Legion version of the Roundtable or in its own topical thread. I'd love to see the LSH version revived personally, so if Yellow Kid, Reboot or anyone else wants to resurrect it, you have my blessing!

By the way, guys, I battled a stomach bug today, so I'm running on fumes. I'll comment more in depth on my list, those that didn't make the cut and on your comments tomorrow, hopefully, as I recover.

here's mine

1) ROM Spaceknight #1-52 - My favorite series of all time and this run is the vast majority of the series. After this point its "Total War" and ROM main enemy are eliminated. The series meandered along for another 2 years but without the Evil Dire Wraiths around it just wasn't the same

2) Preacher (entire series) - This is an incredible series, extremely well plotted with excellent art.

3)Astro City: Family Album - I've really liked all the Astro City trades I've read, but this one really sticks out for me as to what it is like to be a hero and yet try to raise a family

4)LSH (Levitz run) - Ok I'm going to qualify this by adding that its up to giffens return with his puffy lip and 200 pockets and pouchs style. That art style just didn't look good with this version of the legion. This run contains many of my favorite story arcs and is what made it my favorite comic (next to ROM).

5) The Authority (Under New Management) - A superhero team that didn't give a rat's @$$ about what anyone thought as long as they got the job done...and KNEW they had the power to do it. Although many Authority stories have fallen flat for me, this one was firing on all cylinders, great story all around.

6) Marshal Law (Fear and Loathing) - Its crass, vulgar, ultra violent and yet a hilarious take on superheroes. Even all these years later I'm not sure if it was meant to be a spoof of "serious" comics (though there are characters who are obvious send-ups).

7) ok i only have 6 for the list.

Thank you, thank you, thank you....donation tray is to your right.

Serously, thanks, Des. As i wrote my capsules, bits of inspiration came to me, and that was one of my better bits. Jack Knight was the definitive Gen-X hero. I can't really think of any other offhand who represented that particular archetype better or even in the same ballpark. All the issues with himself (with the addition of the superhero thing) were just spot-on. Yeah, it was all pretty angsty, but, well, so are Gen-Xers. It was fun seeing Jack find himself and to compare it with my own search to do so. Starman was a lot more than just that, but it was a very resonant aspect of the whole.

(*ahem* Des...donation tray? )

I'll come back and fill my reasonings in a bit more later, hopefully:


10: Doug Monech's Spectre: I really have a soft spot for those early issues. It went to pot after the cast expanded, but I thought there was such great subtext and exploration of Corrigan/Spectre

9: From Hell: Still breathtaking in scope and vision.

8: John's JSA: It was a great, fun revival of a great team. This is what Superhero comics should be.

7: Batman and the Outsiders (1st series): I include just about everything up until bats left. I was surprised to find how much I liked these characters, not just Batman. Of course, I couldn't get the Baxter series where I lived, so this run ended too soon for me.

6: Aparo's Brave and the Bold: The only entry here solely for the art. When I think of my childhood reading comics, Aparo is where it all starts and ends.

5: Sandman - 'nuff said

4: Ostrander's Suicide Squad - I always had trouble waiting for the next issue, this series was like crack.

3: Levitz's LSH run from Annual# through the end of Tales. Words fail me.

2: Shade the Changing Man - already talked about in this thread.

1: Moore's Swamp Thing: Still THE seminal comic series in my mind. Just beautiful literature and completely transformative in my pre-teen and teenaged years.

Y'know, Sandman would probably be number 11 or 12 on my list--just on the outside looking in. Why didn't it make it? I guess it just came down to it just not feeling as personal to me than the ones that made it. Does that make any sense?

Let me try to explain. Sandman wasn't necessarily so much about Morpheus as it was about the people whose lives he touched or affected. Oh, there were definitely some beauts like Matthew, Hob Gadling (I'd buy a Gaiman-written series about him!), Nuala and countless others. But Morpheus himself wasn't all that interesting to me. I understand that that's how he was supposed to be as a being having no dreams of his own, and I know he wasn't completely without character development. But ultimately, it's the characters featured in a comic every month that make the biggest impression on me and endear me to the series, so that's what made Sandman fall a little short for me. Every comic I listed had main characters that connected with me in some way.

Again, Sandman is an outstanding body of work that I will always treasure. The stories are almost second to none. But I've learned that it's character that I connect to above all else, and those ten satisfied that need for me moreso.

Not familiar with Horrocks, but it sounds trippy, Clee! I vote for our resident librarian, Rockhopper Lad, to make it so!

Y'know, Drake, I've heard ZOT! mentioned a lot but have never had any idea what it was all about. Wanna save me a Wikipedia entry and gimme a capsule of ZOT!-ness?

I dunno', Lardy. Even in prosperous times, could we really afford to pay Rockhopper what he's worth ? And what if the penguins don't want to relocate ?



Hicksville is a fictional town in New Zealand that's a sort of mecca for those who make comics and those who love them. A local guy named Kupe runs the lighthouse, fishes and maintains a library that has every never-published dream sequential project done by Kurtzman, Kirby, and even Picasso/Lorca ! Everyone in town loves comics and collects them, and at parties you'll find burly fishermen arguing over whether Herriman is cooler than Argones, etc. (In the way that at most parties, everyone is arguing about sports.)

Needless to say, I own both the original comics and the collection, and I adore them. I'm not really in a position to make up a Top Ten list, but all of the source comic for the novel: Pickle, would have to be part of it.