Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Grant Morrison

It was in direct response the the election of 1994. Curt Swan art, Millar writing very tongue and cheek) perhaps the only thing by him I've enjoyed). Definitely worth seeking out for its own sake, even if one cares nothing for Swamp Thing (or Chester).

My 'must' list for complete runs (of 20+ issues):
Sandman
Preacher
Fables
Bone
Strangers in Paradise
Starman (Robinson/Harris et al)
the original Elfquest (1977-1986)
Mage (both series)
Jon Sable (original series) 1-40
Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (20-63, I think)
Grant Morrison's Animal Man (1-26)
Zot 11-36 (now in one volume, conveniently enough)
American Flagg! 1-26
The Question (80s O'Neil series)

and noteworthy, but understandibly not everyone's cup of tea:
Cerebus
Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol
Omaha the Cat Dancer

underappreciated 80s indies:

Dalgoda (Jan Strnad, Ken Fujitake)
Masked Man (BC Boyer)
Crossfire (Mark Evanier/Dan Speigel)

Agree about Dalgoda. Would add:

Tales From The Closet -- Ivan Velez

Open Season -- Jim Bricker

Night Life -- Derek McCulloch/Mike Bannon

(I was indy-published once or twice, but I guess that belongs on the "Know Your..." thread)

Oh, and I enjoyed Omaha for awhile, before it collapsed under the weight of wayyyyy to many soap constructs/cliches.

I think a character like Chester was too good to be used as a sacrificial lamb just to make a satirical point.

And if Millar is even half the bastard I think he is behind that sh*t-eating grin, I'm sure he got a kick out of making Chester fans like myself squirm.

And Cobie, you still haven't answered my question.

A huge black hole in my comics reading is and was the great indie comics of the '80s: Mage, Grendel, Elfquest, Jon Sable, Grimjack, Love and Rockets, American Flagg...you name a significant indie from that era, and I haven't read a lick of it. What can I say? I was a teenager and buying every Marvel and nearly every DC off the stands with every bit of allowance and lawn-mowing money I could scrape together! And I didn't have any cool comic-reading friends who could point me in the right direction.

In fact, to this day, I'm not a huge indie freak, but I'm more prone than ever to try out anything that has a good buzz following it. Honestly, I never would have tried Walking Dead, Umbrella Academy or lots of other indie-flavored books if not for buzz from posters here and some in-depth coverage from sites like CBR and Newsarama.

I really do wish I'd been in on the ground floor of some of those '80s indies though. Unfortunately, I doubt my CBS would have sold many of them to me before I was 18.

It did lose something after Kathy, er, left the title. My memory's really fuzzy, though, since I haven't read them in about a decade--but didn't Kathy...return...toward the end of the series?

Like I said, Chris Bachalo's artwork was at its very best on Shade. I've yet to see him more inventive yet clear in his storytelling was on Shade.

After Bachalo left, we had Mark Buckingham on art and, I believe, Philip Bond towards the end. Neither was a slouch in the art department either. But Bachalo was the best.

This was another Vertigo series that didn't hit its stride immediately. Once it focussed a little less on the main concept--people being judged and sentenced for the secrets they were keeping--and more on the characters, it really took off. The main concept was always entertaining, but learning more about the cast and their own secrets was the real joy of that series.

Very quickly, the title settled into Davis taking every third arc off, if I remember correctly. Sometimes, the fill-in artists weren't up to his standards, but other times they were pretty terrific in their own right. No matter what, each arc kept its main artist from start to finish, so that was very nice. If Davis couldn't produce 12 issues a year, this was a good alternative.

Incidentally, unlike Shade or House of Secrets, Vertigo IS in the process of collecting that series in TBP in its entirety, two arcs per trade.

Does this mean you've read enough of what's been published since to have an opinion? Because there definitely have been some intermittent gems published since Miller. Have you read any of the Dixon/Graham or Moench/Jones issues I've referenced?

Like rouge said, Stealth, it was a "What If?"-type story, not a reboot or retcon or anything. His Swamp Thing was waaaay before Millar grew his Big Fat Ego! This swears Lardy!

BTW, I picked up all three issues of the Diggle Thunderbolts (and the new issue of Mighty Avengers) up from my CBS today, largely because you've put your Stealth Stamp of Approval so profoundly on it--hope it lives up to your hype!

Stealth, I honestly think Millar seems like a pretty likeable guy but there are some annoying things about him. One, he obviously promotes his material in a way that can only be described as "Stan Lee meets PT Barnum". Calling Wanted "The Watchman of Supervillains" and saying his comics "are the most important comics of the year" are way over the top and ridiculous. But in a way, perhaps that works? I mean, people do pick his comics up. He also obviously has a way to manipulate the internet extremely well--playing on people's fears, curiousities, sense of outrage and willingness to check out things simply for the sake of understanding 'why there's such a controversy about Ultimate #6 on Newsarama'. So yes, I find all of those qualities annoying . But I think he's an asshole or a jerk or anything. I'm of the opinion that the internet deserves 95% of the beating it gets from DC and Marvel and their creators.

Millar obviously loves comic books and especially loves superheroes. And many of his comics, like Ultimate Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, were an obvious attempt to reaffirm that superheroes don't need to apologize for their corniness or 'kids toy' status. He just goes about it in the exact opposite way Grant Morrison does.

Another Millar trait is that he obviously will use sensationalism in his stories when it fits his agenda. But, so did Peter David in the 90's and so did a host of other writers--Millar just does it to the Nth degree. I'm not saying its right--I was furiously about Ultimate Hank Pym and Ultimate Cap for so long that I basically posted "I hate Mark Millar" a bunch of times about five or so years ago. But Millar was calculating there too--he made it the ultimate versions of those characters. And the after effect? Millar is more high profile than ever, benefitting hugely, and the Ultimate Avengers are basically on a major decline down the tube since Millar's exit.

There's also a problem that isn't directly Millar or Bendis' fault. Because those two writers are seen by Marvel execs as being so important, there seems to be a top-down approach at Marvel to reuse and dig into those two creators subplots, ideas and niches. So, in the case of Civil War, Millar never actually makes Reed Richards or Tony Stark look like facists or assholes. It simply was not by him. I've gone and researched/checked it specifically to see (as this was when I started to really take a second look at Millar). Most of that stuff came from other writers: JMS being a big one, but several more, and even Bendis himself. JMS has said that was mainly directed by editorial. Therefore, one can make this assumption: Mark Millar proposes an idea and Marvel editorial misunderstands it and creates a top-down directive to JMS to alter Reed and Tony in Spider-Man and FF own comics. Yet, Millar gets the blame. I really think that's unfair. Obviously, this could mean little to you and is way off your point, but I wanted to post it anyway

Soooooo...I'm hoping one day Millar writes a story you like and you give him a second chance. I eventually came around. I'm not saying I like 100% of his work, but some of it I think is beyond good and actually quite excellent. But, as always, I always respect and am fascinated by your opinions

Millar's most annoying quality, BTW, is his willingness to talk about how much money he makes in interviews. Whether true or not, it permeates the assumption that Millar is really only out there working for the money, sensationalizing his work to get higher sales and creating over the top indie projects for movie deals. I certainly hope that is not the case.

His best quality seems to be that he seems like a cool guy to have a pint with and discuss how much Galactus could kick Thanos' ass.

I'm pretty much the same. Obviously I couldn't read in the early 80's, being 3 years old and stuff, but I'd like to catch up on some of these. I've read almost all of the DC and Marvel stories of that period. I believe my father has American Flagg! and some others, but for the most part I still need to find Mage, Love and Rockets and several others. I also have never read a Grendel story outside of the crossover with Batman and would love to immerse myself in that universe (like Hellboy and like I'm currently trying with Madman).

Speaking of Madman, I recently bought several of his earliest appearances via trades from a certain Legion Worlder who is renowned for his awesomeness and considered by me to be the poster whose opinion on the last three years of Legion most resemble my own. I can't wait to dig in! (Here's a hint--his moniker is that of the coolest new character in 5YL Legion, and I think he should be the next LMB leader).

Lardy, I very much look forward to finding out what you think of those books I recommended. And if you don't like Diggle's Thunderbolts, I'll refund you the $9.

Cobie, thanks a lot for the detailed answer regarding Millar. Truth is, I gave Millar a fair chance with his first few issues of FF, and I found it to be like Busiek's Avengers: dull, derivative, overly reverent -- not to mention a waste of Bryan Hitch's considerable artistic talent. But who knows? Maybe one day, when he's no longer King of the Mountain (we know that day is coming), and he actually has to prove himself a worthy writer, he might pleasantly surprise me.

You'll have to wait a coupla weeks for my response, though. I just got my In-Stock Trades order and will be occupied with those for a while. After that, I'm about two weeks or so behind in my comics reading. But I promise I'll letcha know what I think!

Like I said, if you get the inclination, track down his run on Swamp Thing (140-171). In my opinion its the best writing he's ever done by a mile! If you're leary of checking out a whole run, just try #152. If you don't like it, I'll refund ya what ya spent on it!

And Cobester...just to clarify, I'd easily put the entirety of Shade and SMT among my Top Ten favorite comic book runs of all time! ( sounds like I've gotta nother list to compile soon....)

I'll agree with Mage and Fables. Grendel should be noted, as we are in this rush to spotlight villains (Thunderbolts, Dark Avengeers, Secret Six.) As for the rest, I'm working on reading them- Starman and SMT are on the top of the list.

Millar did time at DC in the 90's- a brief stint on FLASH and JLA that were great stories, not blockbusters like his current output. He certainly is caught up in the hype machine- both his and Marvel's doing.

Ceej, I don't recall runs on Flash or JLA, though that seems familiar. Remember any story details or when/where they occurred in relation to other runs on those titles?

His JLA story was the Amazo/Atom tale before Morrison's run ended. He and Morrison both filled in for Mark Waid on FLASH when Waid took a break, issues 131-138, soon to be in tpb.

Sold. (But it might take me awhile since I'm already doing a bunch of other reading projects ). But I'll give Shade another try and I'm really looking forward to checking out SMT. And Grendel. AND Mage...

PS - those Morrison/Millar issues on Flash were actually really good. I highly reccomend them. Particularly the 3 parter where he's racing those aliens for Earth's survival--its a classic Silver Age concept done really well in a modern style.

I'll settle for you focussing on Scalped, Walking dead & Invincible for now....

(Don't worry, you know I'm doing my part by starting on Fables and Umbrella Academy--and probably House of Mystery and Agents of Atlas, soon! )

Yes, the very last issue had a "reset button" of sorts where Shade went back in time and stopped both Grenzer and the American Scream before they really got started. Obviously this changed things radically (which at least explained why there wasn't SOME reaction in the the rest of the DCU/Vertigoverse to the destruction of San Francisco, something that bothered me throughout the whole series). Shade gave Kathy her journals from his time line and after reading them she decided to join him and Lenny, reuniting the three of them.

It was actually 130-141, 12 issues broken into 4, 3-issue mini arcs. They later said in an interview that they basically alternated writing arcs but left both names on the cover. They never admitted who wrote what, but it's not hard to tell.

Anyone interested in listing their Top 10 Favorite Runs in comics? I've been thinking about it since I told Des what I thought about Shade and Sandman Mystery Theatre. I'll have to give it some more really deep thought, though. As I sort them mentally, I'm surprised somewhat at what runs will make my cut and especially which ones apparently won't.

Two things that really come into play for me in my thought process are: 1) Runs that are still ongoing or haven't had enough years to percolate probably won't make the cut--only one recently-ended one might, and 2) Runs that I experienced mostly as trades, reprints or back issues will not likely make my cut as the "in the moment" connection means a lot to me.

Don't get me wrong...these aren't the rules I want you to follow, should you decide to participate, but those are shaping up to my personal guidelines.

And it looks like Vertigo will be pretty well represented on mine......

That would be really difficult for me too, as the entire basis of my comic book reading career is rooted in Silver Age Marvel Comics, and then also in the entire histories of specific characters (Spidey, Thor, Iron Man, Legion, Batman, etc.).

To me of course, difficult = fun, so I'll have to give it some more thought. I can think of at least one Vertigo run that would probably make my cut (Preacher).