Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Avengers Dissassembled: Reactions to the first 22 pages of #500 on page 3

I absolutely hate what Austen is doing to the Avengers. He's suddenly thrust them into a direction that's making no sense whatsoever.

For instance: Wasp, Giant-Man and Hawkeye.

Where in the heck did THAT come from? Jan and Hank worked out their problems a long time ago. Now, suddenly, she's pulled away from him because of the time he struck her during his breakdown years ago? So, she can't marry him because of their past, yet she's been sleeping with him and has appeared to be very happy with him for some time now?

Could Austen possibly be confusing the Avengers with the Ultimates?

And, I'm sorry, but Hawkeye? They've barely been in the same panel together for like 20 years, and now suddenly they're about to have sex... in the mansion, while everyone, including Hank, is there? I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it.

It's one thing to take characters into new directions, but for heaven's sake, try to at least glance at their existing continuity first. You can't just take a character in a 180 from the way they've been portrayed for the last 5-10 years and expect it to make sense.

And here I thought his destruction of Polaris was the lowest he was going to go...

Oh, and btw, since when is Avengers Mansion the best possible place to raise children? I mean, it's one thing to raise YOUR OWN kids there, but why on earth would the Avengers move these kids into the mansion. I mean, how many times have the Avengers been attacked in their own home? It feels fairly irresponsible to me, especially where most of them don't yet know the identity of Captain Britain.

Which brings me to Captain Britain. She's been a hero for what, a couple of hours? And that's long enough to make her an Avenger? I guess Earth is running a little short on "Mightiest Heroes" if they are inducting the "new kids on the block" into their ranks. At least Firestar and Justice had some previous experience as New Warriors.

And don't even get me started on making whatshername (Captain Britain's real identity) into an honorary Avenger. I'd like to think that she's not in the same league as Rick Jones, who was inducted for his help during the Kree-Skull War. At least HE had been a sidekick for awhile before that.

I totally agree about Austen's treatment of Hank, Jan and Hawkeye. Unfortunately, I think Bendis is going to continue the characterization of Hank that Johns initiated and that Austen piled onto. All are totally ignoring the work that Busiek put into Hank Pym. Ugh and double ugh. I expect Hank'll be the reason for the 'disassembly'... wouldn't be surprised if he's killed or turned into a villain.

Disappointed... deeply so... but not surprised.

Maybe this is all clumsy misdirection...

As for Polaris, I disagree. The *real* damage to her character was done by Grant Morrison. Austen has taken that as a beginning point. To me, her development has been fairly believeable, if a bit over the top. I *like* the revelation that she's Magneto's daughter... I always thought that would be a truth eventually revealed. I think there's a lot of potential for her relationships with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch now. Lorna was left totally insane by Grant Morrison, and Austen has gradually been evening her out-- I think. To me, it's more believeable than having her instantly be OK. I kind of like the edge in philosophical differences she now has... if not taken to extremes-- maybe you think that it already has been. I can see that. Me, I'd give her a little more room since I'm glad to see her being used so heavily, at any rate. I'd *really* be glad to see her move past all the romantic drama with Alex and Annie. Lorna, Alex and Bobby-- that's the soap opera stuff I care about.

Now, Nightcrawler-- what Austen did with him *really* stunk.

As for Captain Britain... I'm ambivalent about her. I like the idea of a mother becoming a superheroine when already an adult... but the way it happened was so cruel. The biggest question her continued involvement raises is why would Captain *Britain* want to relocate to America?

I don't think an extended Captain America moves to China storyline would be readily accepted, would it?

Your point about the kids is well taken, but it did provide that cute moment with She-Hulk chasing them through the halls of Avengers Mansion, pretending to really be a monster. That was fun.

Todd

I agree SpellBinder its just hard for me to continue to pick up this title and now it looks like over in Cap/Falcon Cap and Wanda are hooking up!!!!!

Kids in the mansion: what happens, say the next time Mr. Hyde decides to beat and kill Jarvis and the other supporting characters? Dead children littering the garden?

At least Luna had Lockjaw there!

It's gettin' kinda "Real World" over there with all the hook ups ("Seven Heroes picked to live in a mansion, their lives recorded in comic book form...when superheroes stop being polite...")

Maybe that's how they are going to disassemble. They will vote members out of the mansion, with the last Avenger standing being in charge of the new team.

re: AVENGERS # 83/498

This issue has been the most enjoyable for me of Austen's run.

I think I can actually accept the Jan/Clint fling... Yes, I was shouting that Geoff Johns had established Jan & Hank as a sort-of couple, but Jan is a free woman and stated to Hank she has no intentions of remarrying him; she IS able to do what she wants. MAN... I think I actually HEARD Hank's heart break on that final page...!

I DO still dislike the sudden infusion of hang-ups (mostly from Clint) for Hank's actions of nearly 300 issues ago.

I'll tell you what-- I think I'd by an Austen-written INVADERS book in a minute! So far, I **LOVE** them!

My Marvel knowledge isn't as thorough as my DC, though...

Do I have the cast right:

"Captain America" is actually former Avenger USAgent.

Spitfire is indeed the original Spitfire (de-aged, iirc, in NAMOR)

Union Jack is the latest in a long line of men who have worn his costume.

The femme Torch is a new character?

Atomic Skull was a Marvel Golden-Age character, right?

And Namor the one and only, of course.

INVADERS is what Austen REALLY needs to be writing if this issue is any indication!

I think it's "Blazing Skull", but I like the sound of "Atomic Skull" .... he's not a golden age character though -- I believe that's a retcon (moreso than the original Invaders, that is).

Atomic Skull is one of Superman's Rogues.

Oops! "Blazing Skull" doesn't sound as good but I guess is more Golden-Agey.

Reactions to the first 22 Pages of #500

There are Spoilers

For people looking for them, go to www.newsarama.com. There are also good interviews on it at Newsarama and the Pulse.

Ok, here we go:

I'm a combination of things. I'm overjoyed to see so much focus on the Avengers, and really looking forward to a great storyline, especially b/c I like Bendis writing. But I am very scared for my favorite characters, and I don't want it to succumb to the Marvel 'hype policy' of constant death and needless super-melodrama that borders on disgusting (like the last ten issues of Avengers).

-the art- amazing. I think it's very, very good. Right off the bat, something good.

-Scott Lang aka Ant-Man II is dead. Right off the bat, Scott dies. I'm torn with this. First, I don't like senseless deaths of long-time characters to further a story. However, I've never been really attacked to Scott, since I'm too huge of a Hank Pym fan to want anyone assuming his identites. But now I'm worried for all the characters.

-The Vision may be close to dead too. This one, I don't believe for a second. If the Vision is dead though, now I'm pissed off. But I have the feeling that he's not, since he's basically an android and can find a way back. More below.

-Ultron is back. And he looks friggin' awesome so far. No matter how angry some people will get, Ultron does look awesome.

-Possible endings for the story. After reading two or three Bendis/Quesada interviews tonight, a few things are more clear than ever. First, this story is about the worst things ever happening to the Avengers all happening again. This explains Tony being drunk, Jack of Hearts dying again, and Ultron controlling and then destroying the Vision. This might also mean the Vision will be able to get better though. But Bendis keeps hammering home the point that the villian behind this (and there is a villian) is someone that knows everything there can possibly be about the Avengers.

***Speculation time***- It better damn well not be Hank. If Hank is the bad guy, trying to make everything seem so much worse than the time he hit Jan, I'll have my Avengers loving heart broken.

Other things that are supposed to happen now:

-After #500-503, the series will end. There will then be a double-sized special called "Avengers Finale" with art from a wide variety of creators, including George Perez, who is doing it to show his support for what's happening. If Perez supports it, and so does Stan Lee (which has been reported), it might not be so bad. "Avengers Finale" is a one-shot that's supposed to be purely for us long-time Avengers fans, where all the 'surviving members' get together in a nostalgic sort of way.

-After that, Avengers starts over under Bendis, who has a ton of stories lined up and is there for the long haul.

-Another title will come out of it, with a writer who is supposedly so good that he'll 'make our heads explode'. I have no idea who this could be, but it better be damn good for that kind of statement. Neil Gaiman maybe? It's supposed to have a great premise and have lots of surprises. This may be the title that a lot of us have speculated will come out (i.e. Daredevil, Spider-Man, etc. on the team).

-There will be other spin-offs and other supposedly great creative teams on the related books. I remember awhile ago that there is supposed to be a Thor creative team that will make every Thor fan ever smile, which I thought might be Walt Simonson or Neil Gaiman, but who knows?

As I said, I'm excited but very wary.

So far, Ant-Man II aka Scott Lang is dead and Jack of Hearts is definately a goner for good now.

Well, as you said, if this is about all the bad things that happened to the team happening again, wouldn't Hank going nuts again qualify?

SPOILERS ahead!


I'm shocked how quick Scott Lang was written off. I know he's as second-string as they come these days on a heavy-hitter book, but I still have some great fondness for the guy...probably left-over from his short 90s stint in Fantastic Four. I've never kept up with the Avengers much (I bought the book during Olivier's first story-arc and stopped when Geoff Johns left), but I was pleasantly pleased to find him in the pages when I first started reading. It was nice he had a niche finally and I always loved his relationship with daughter Cassie.

He was a great guy, and I hate how Bendis captured it so well by having him rush right out to say hello and be oblivious to the danger at hand. Super-hero murders, a la Monstress, always have me giving higher sympathy to the character and feeling a little upset in that being their last stand compared to death in the battlefield. I don't deny it should happen or be portrayed, but man...it's gut-wrenching! It is a much more realistic fate though, seeing as how we live in a world where normal human beings die off from disease, accident, suicide, or homicide more than self-sacrifice.

Sorry to step back a few issues, but after seeing "Lord of the Rings: Return of the King" again recently, the battlefield scene where Eowyn uses a shield to defend her fallen father against Mr. "I can't be killed by a man" who was swinging a spiked ball at the end of a chain totally reminded me of what Austin did with the new Capt Britain defending Captain America against Wrecking Ball (or whatever his name was). Has anyone else seen this similarity and given Austin flack for it?

And speaking of Scott Lang, I liked his appearances in "Alias" (written by Bendis no less).

Regarding "Disassembled", I wouldn't be surprised if this was all Loki's doing. Although from the Ultron robots and Vision's comment about the Avenger's failing somehow, it almost sounds like it might be Hank (though I hope not - unless his return to madness was part of the plot as Miner suggests).

If it were Hank, he could theoretically get inside Stark and introduce alcohol into his system without him knowing and he could certainly take control of the vision, but I don't know how he would've been able to do what he did with Jack O'Hearts (take a Quinjet and snag him from orbit then douse him with enough radiation to make him go off two minutes after getting dumped on the front lawn maybe??).

The art in the preview is awesome, but my only quibble is how he draws the Iron Man armor -- the way he depicts the segmented parts of his torso make him look a little bug-like.

I enjoyed the preview better than I expected. Ironically, the things I enjoyed about it were the very things that many of the Newsarama posters criticized.

The opening scene of Hawkeye discussing his "have nots" was just so Hawkeye. It pulled me into the story by making me wonder what he was talking about on that first page.

Likewise, the UN scene was full of surprises for me. I haven't followed AVENGERS or IRON MAN in several years, so I was unaware that Iron Man had made his secret identity public. One of the posters mentioned that he is now Secretary of Defense. Whuzzat? Move over, Donald Rumsfeld.

Tony's breakdown in front of the delegates was the scene that kept me most on edge. You know that this is very unlike Tony Stark, yet there he is, threatening to blast a Latverian delegate just for being a Latverian delegate. Tony's explanation to Wanda for what was happening to him was chilling and unexpected.

I have to say that the rest of the preview didn't exceed my low expecations. As some Newsarama posters mentioned, we've seen much of this story line before ... someone returns from the dead and attacks the mansion ... someone dies ... an Avenger seems to betray the rest ... Cap stands up for Jarvis ... and the villain turns out to be Ultron. These scenes are all very well done -- Bendis is good at prolonging what would be a moment in real time to make it seem like an eternity, building suspense in a cinematic way. But the skillfully designed "how" cannot cover up the triteness of the "what" that is happening.

The last time I read AVENGERS was when Kurt Busiek brought Ultron back. I'm bored with the same villains and stories. This preview, as well-written and beautifully drawn as it was, doesn't give me a reason to pick up the book.

HWW, One thing that Bendis has continued to stress is that there will be new villians and new stories in his run on Avengers, so that's a good thing. I have a feeling that Ultron isn't the main villain this time around too.

Does anyone know when the issue is scheduled to come out? Is it this week?

So, Bendis "stressed" new villains, yet brought back an old one (and not only an old one, but perhaps the most overused Avengers villain ever), in a story that's been hyped as bringing about major changes in the Avengers? Even if Ultron turns out to be a tease, his presence doesn't instill me with confidence in Bendis' intentions.

Perhaps Bendis should try his hand at politics.

I was convinced before I read AVENGERS 500 that Hank would be revealed to be behind the whole thing. Now, I'm cautiously hopeful that he isn't.

spoiler
space


spoiler
space


spoiler
space


...unless he's been 'taken over' by Ultron, somehow. Loki's the only other likely candidate that I can think of that could accomplish the various attacks at once, and acquire the info necessary to plan them in the first place. But he's pretty busy over in THOR, isn't he?

The mysterious couple at the end of the issue throw in another whole angle... I *think* one of the two is female, though they might not be. Moondragon? Enchantress? Maybe it's the Vision and the Scarlet Witch's phantom twins...


I'm curious...

...has anyone seen that ad in WIZARD that has Wasp, Yellowjacket, Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch pictured with the caption 'one of these Avengers will die'?

Looks like one of the Pyms is about to be history. For awhile, anyway.

#500 was a good read, I thought. She-Hulk really stands out. Her losing her temper and destroying Vision before the team can figure out his message would be another revisitng of one of the worst things to befall the team, too, wouldn't it?

It was sad seeing Viz dismantled and used, once again. But, his return is certainly more possible than Scott Lang's or whoever dies in 502.

I'm really getting tired of this 'kill a hero (or two-- or three) every time a new writer takes over a team book.

Quesada over at Marvel trumpeted the 'stay dead' policy there for the last couple of years. I wish one of the companies would adopt a 'no heroes killed year'.

Would these 'hot' writers be completely crippled and unable to produce a 'hot' story? Proves their worth, if so.

Todd

**SPOILERS for 500***
-- Despite the sensationalistic elements to this "event", I totally enjoyed the story (as disturbing as some of it was). I was psyched to see Scott Lang and Jack of Hearts on the team, so needless to say, I wasn't totally happy with the way things are going. I can't believe the Vision is gone for good either, but it's too bad he's been sidelined since he's one of my favs as well.
-- The art here is *amazing*. I loved the red-hued battle with the Ultrons. It was all very visceral and raw.
-- What's going on with Jan? She seems to be totally losing it. Her near panic at these events are either out of character for one of the most accomplished Avengers leaders or it's part of this whole scheme. And as annoying as it's been that she's taken on Hank's growing powers so much, it coulda been useful here.
-- Regarding that last page, was I the only one who thought of Roxxas and TMK? (and Gollum too) I'm worried that it's Hank Pym talking to himself. Notice the thought balloons either point toward the pair of lips pictured or they float, pointing at noone. Bendis had some not so great things to say about Pym in the letters pages in "Powers" as well (same with Jack Heart and we know what he did to him...).
-- My belief in my earlier theory that this is all Loki's doing was given a slight boost by the image that starts off this book (on the roll call page).

I was extremely impressed with AVENGERS 500.

The art was AMAZING!!! Sorta reminded me of Coipel.

I hate to see this fate befall THE VISION, one of the earliest Marvel heroes I "met".

I was there for Scott's first appearance in MARVEL PREMIERE. I'll miss him.

This She-Hulk is so contradictory to the Shulkie presented in her OWN mag, it's somewhat jarring. Better I think she leaves the team.

Tony's breakdown was chilling indeed.

Impressed as I was, I am still dropping it once Wolvie & co. come on board.

What's the relationship between Scott Lang and Hank Pym? (I've never followed the Avengers that closely.)

I always thought Ant-Man and Yellowjacket were the same person -- just different codenames.

Lang stole the Ant-Man costume (while Pym was Yellowjacket) to rescue his daughter, Pym let him keep it.

[Pym was very loose with his old costumes... Rita DeMara later nicked the Yellowjacket suit too...]