Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Captain America

looks like it's <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">spidey. from the recent ultimatum finale. which makes me wonder what's gonna happen to 616 spidey. </span></span>

i liked the cap reborn story. i actually just picked it up 'cause i like hitch! lol.

Completely ignore what the poster above said, everyone.

ha ha!


i didn't get really what you mean by his photo-reference files...what don't you like about his photo-references? (uses too many of the same ones over and over?) and what's he get wrong with the character references? (curious)

So the main Captain America series appears to be waiting for the return of Steve Rogers stuff to finish up, namely Captain America: Reborn and the “Who Will Wield the Shield?” one-shot. Honestly, both of those series feel as if they could have just been included within the monthly Cap title, other than Hitch’s art in the former and the obvious attempt on Marvel’s fault to make as much money as possible by this turn of events. But the writing, style, pacing and characters are just the same as in Cap’s main title, and Brubaker continues to do an excellent job as always showcasing Captain America’s cast.

In ‘Reborn’, the story of Cap’s return pretty much unveils as you’d expect, specifically since it was foreshadowed over a year ago how it would be done. But the real meat of the story is the characters reacting to his return which is building steadily each issue. I really hope in the final issue we’ll have two scenes: (1) Cap and Sharon reunited, particularly after all the hell Sharon has gone through since he was killed; and (2) Cap and Bucky finally talking to one another (even if its briefly at the end), because we’ve never really seen that yet. In the meantime, Reborn basically has everyone whose been consistently used in Cap: Bucky/Cap II, Black Widow, Sharon, Falcon, Red Skull, Crossbones, Sin, and they even pull in some other Avengers you’d expect like Clint Barton and Henry Pym, as well as bringing in the Dark Reign-related people. There is a lot going on, that’s for sure. Hitch’s art has some detractors (namely Reboot on another page) and while its not my favorite, I don’t hate it.

What Marvel has done though that is really weird (and shows Hitch can never get a comic out on time) is basically reveal the ending in all of their other titles. Obviously Cap is coming back but he actually appears at the end of the New Avengers Annual, shows up in Iron Man, etc. So the rest of the MU is reacting to his return even though the story isn’t done yet. Its not too terribly distracting but it is kind of goofy that now everyone is reading this all out of order.

The most amusing example is the “Who will wield the Shield?” one-shot which also came out before Reborn ended, with Cap (Steve) and Cap (Bucky) both trying to decide if either wants to continue as Cap or not. It easily could have just been Cap #602 in the sense that its Bru & Epting doing what they do best. It kind of reestablishes Cap as a brooding figure but someone who “gets the job done” and has him and Sharon enjoying some happiness together, while at the same time showing Bucky’s conflicting emotions and how much Natasha has come to care about him. One complaint is that we still haven’t seen a Cap/Bucky heart to heart moment yet, so I hope there is one in Reborn #6. I don’t expect it to get all hysterical and with everyone crying (because it doesn’t seem in character for either of them) but I hope we at least get a poignant exchange between the two.

As for the question of whether I think Cap should be Cap or Bucky should stay as Cap, all I can say is I enjoy this comic so much that I 100% trust Ed Brubaker and would follow his lead. So I’m not really leaning either way and just am ready to go on the ride he takes us on because I haven’t been let down yet.

But they're not. Really, the pacing in particular is horribly "off" in Reborn (a big part of that is apparently Hitch, unprompted, padding each issue by 8-10 pages), and the whole thing feels... shallow. At four, or possibly five, 22-page issues, with less repetition (seriously, did ANY of the Steve-in-the-past scenes except the establishing one and the continuity-pretzel Vision one add anything that justified the page count?), tighter pacing and probably a narrower focus (especially fewer characters - to pick one example, were the Thunderbolts really, honestly necessary?), it might have worked. It simply does not have the plot or character work to justify SIX 30+ page issues, especially at a Hitchian schedule.

And it doesn't even matter whether you think Hitch's art is objectively "bad" or not - it doesn't fit into the Epting aesthetic that the whole Brubaker series has been based around (which artists including Michael Lark, Jackson Guice, Roberto de la Torre, Mike Perkins and Luke Ross have all basically fit into. Only the Nomad FB issue [#7, a last-minute fill-in by John Paul Leon, which was devised and drawn after what would become #8 had been solicited as that issue, because Epting was running late], the Lee Weeks House of M issue [#10, a "We Interrupt The Story In Progress To Bring You This Crossover Event" issue that the Cap HC/TPBs actually skipped] and the Crazy Cap sequence from #600 really diverged from that until Reborn).

We already know that's not going to happen - that is, apparently, was what W3TS was for.

Funny, I could have sworn the issue was pencilled by Luke Ross and Butch Guice [See my point about the aesthetic above]

Well, I don't think Reborn is as bad as you say but understand where you're coming from. I don't think the pacing was all that off. The series certainly could have benefited from being 4 issues instead of 6 though.

Funny about Luke Ross...I hadn't even noticed it was so close to Epting. But as to the idea that Hitch doesn't fit in with the aesthetic of the series: well, yeah, I agree, but I don't think its too glaring. Hitch has a completely different style than Epting. But IMO (and I understand its not shared by you), Brubaker's writing trumps it pretty strongly. Brubaker obviously got stuck with Hitch because he's Marvel's big gun these days, but I think he made the most of it.

As for that non-existent Cap/Bucky scene in W3TS--did you also find it glaring that it wasn't there at all? The two charactrs hardly interacted until the last few panels.

The brief chat between Steve and Bucky at the end of W3TS was too short. Odds are because that will roll out during the next arc in Cap's ongoing title - "Two Americas" I believe is the name of it.

W3TS was such a waste of time and effort. It didn't give us an answer of who will, just who has it right now. The ending certainly implied Steve wasn't done being our super soldier.

True, but even besides the interview bits, I got the feeling that that was their first proper talk of ANY sort since they both came back (since they never actually talked even before SR's death).

And let's not focus too hard on the inherent similarities to Priest's arc of the same name in his Cap/Falcon series, including but not limited to the confused/evil guy in a Cap costume...

What I got from it is that Rogers is being set up to be the new Director of SHIELD post-Siege, after Osborn & HAMMER are gone.

Feels weird to say, but I've found Cap: Reborn pretty disappointing thru the just-read issue 5. Why? A) I was one of those who was happy to give Bucky a much longer run as the star of the title. B) As I read this, it seems it should have been the conclusion of the Red Skull epic a year ago rather than appearing well after that epic's supposed conclusion.


As for the latter, we've had the Skull offstage for a period of time, but the story really feels like it never stopped going on. I don't really know if that makes a whole helluva lot of sense, but that's the best way I can explain it.

The story itself seems kind of light also, like it could've been better fit into 3 or 4 issues. The reason for this is painfully obvious: to give Hitch a chance to draw a lot of nostalgiac Cap moments and showcase his art in a lot of single and double-paged spreads.

Thing is, Brubaker's run hasn't been about flashy art spreads; it's been about telling a complex and longform sophisticated narrative. There's very little of that here as we've suddenly given way to the "widescreen" way of telling stories that Hitch is better known for.

I like Hitch's art a lot, but it's ill-suited for what has essentially been a spy title in its long, successful run. The change of tone and storytelling is simply not congruous with everything we've come to expect. Gone is all the nuance we've come to expect; in its place is a story drawn out and overpriced.

And, oh yeah, there's still LOTS of 'splainin' to do as far as what exactly the hell happened to Steve (particularly the body). Everything's so damned widescreen that I have little confidence we'll get all the loose ends tied up next issue.

It doesn't suck exactly, but it doesn't totally rock like we're accustomed to.

Yeah, all the "Reborn to Wield the Shield" stuff is WAY below Brubaker's usual quality. I can only hope it is the result of some temporary editorial/crossover interference that will end when Captain America starts again. While it's had lots of good character moments--particularly Steve's flashbacks and some of Sharon's scenes--on the whole it feels stretched out and boringly predictable. And it's just embarrassing to see "Wield/Shield?" come out before the end of "Reborn." it's sad as hell to see such great creators and such a great storyline driven into mediocrity by the event/crossover disease.

So...Captain America returns this week with number 602. Guess what? It's $3.99!

I guess putting it on hiatus and replacing it with a $3.99 miniseries was ultimately all set-up for the price increase, huh?

It DOES have a Nomad (She-Bucky) backup though. I liked her mini, so I'll see how it goes.

(And Reborn #6 just gets more and more embarrasing for Marvel, ja?)

Oh, didn't know there was a backup in this case. Though I have absolutely no interest in it, I will read it. Glad to have something extra for the money, anyway.

Just read "Who Will Wield the Shield?" It wasn't bad, though a little fluffy. Though I'm glad Bucky will remain Cap for awhile, I don't see Steve stepping aside for any reason. I guess we'll have to read Cap Reborn #6 to see the nature of his vision of the future. Maybe that'll be out before 603?

I thought the art looked a little stiff and posed this issue, especially some scenes with Natasha and Sharon particularly. Butch Guice has had that problem in the past, but I thought he was beyond that. Hopefully, it won't continue.

Nice to see Steve and Sharon are back together and gettin' it on. Also, nice to see Bucky and Natasha will continue for the forseeable future. Now, those are some power couples!

'Course the events of this issue ring a little false with all the promos of the Avengers' Big Three getting together. Seems Steve's 'retirement' will be very short lived. Makes me worry about our pal Buck.

Well, I read the third part of "Two Americas" and I've kept in mind some of the minor criticisms toward this story I've been hearing. Honestly? I don't really see it! I think its been a solid story featuring Bucky and the Falcon that is political, socially relevant and a great action/spy adventure against the 50's Cap. If Bru's earlier stories reminded me a bit of Steranko, this story reminds me of Englehart's Cap, which always had a strong social relevance theme throughout it.

I also like seeing Bucky-Cap have a full-on team-up story with the Falcon (which BTW also fits in squarely with Englehart's Cap).

The artwork by Butch Guice has been terrific.

I can understand the complaint that "there is no follow up on Steve Rogers", which we all know is because Marvel is waiting for Siege to end. But that isn't the Cap creative team's fault, that's a Marvel editorial thing. I think if that wasn't in the back of reader's minds, they would see this as a solid storyline. It's not the best thing ever, but its certainly a good read.

Cobester, my complaint was never just about this one storyline but about the book in general since before Reborn. I'd say it's felt a little stagnant beginning with that storyline in which Bucky went to Russia to recover the remains of the original Human Torch. I dunno, it hasn't sucked or anything, but it's lost it's oomph--it's cutting edge or whatever--basically since Sharon Carter ceased to be a key character inb the book. I'm not saying that it's all about her removal, but when that phase of the Red Skull storyline ended (which drove the book from issue 1), Brubaker kinda lost his mojo for keeping me on the edge of my seat.

What's worse is that when Brubaker brought back those elements for Reborn, it just felt like he was milking it all again rather than recapturing the magic. I know now that he left Daredevil at just the right time when we were still wanting more. At this point it feels like Ed may be outstaying his welcome. I'm not alone either as professional reviewers at CBR and elsewhere tend to agree with me.

It was my hope that this arc would mark a refreshing of Bru's creative pallette, but I'm not seeing it. I'm just not gonna continue giving the book my $3.99 a month in hopes that it'll start to be worth it again. I'll keep my ear to the ground, and if I'm hearing there's a big turnaround, I'll give it another look.

All I can say is I disagree. Can't fault you for wanting to trim down what you're not enjoying though! But I'm still really into Bru's Cap and am glad the Red Skull long-term arc has moved on.

Wonder who else is still reading and enjoying? I *can't* be the only one left on LW! I know more people buy Cap than most other comics based on sales figures.

It's not that I wish that Red Skull arc was still going, Des--it's just that, well, it feels to me like Ed told the story he wanted to tell there (blew his load, if you will) and doesn't really have anything ready to top it pr match its quality. It feels like he's just treading water now, there, and that's not what he spoiled us on for the first 40 issues. It's hard for me as a reader to go from petal-to-the-metal with tension and suspense every issue to a 3 or 4 issue arc against Cap's problem of the month. It just feels like we've been on cruise control for a while. That's not necessarily bad unto itself--maybe it is a reader problem and not a Bru problem--but I think it's a valid criticism.

(btw, did you read my SHIELD review? Any comments to respond in that thread?)

I see where you're coming from. I personally feel like Ed has more stories to tell and he's trying to find his path post-Red Skull Super-Saga. In the meantime, I'm enjoying a few less epic solid Cap stories. But that's where our mileage varies. I think Bru's maintained the quality and he's not done yet. He seems to get the Cap-verse so well that he has more to say.

I will get to the SHIELD review shortly as I post through various threads tonight!

Sorry, but I'm basically in agreement with Lard on this one - the book had tailed off a bit, then there was the big anti-quality Exocet of Reborn, and since then... it's all been a bit boring, and I've forgotten to pick it up some weeks.

An overall ennui with Marvel's output in general isn't helping, I suppose...

[PS: Steve Rogers isn't coming back to this book on more than a recurring basis anyway, LL. Secret Avengers is going to be his (and Sharon's) "home" book, and he's also getting a four-issue "Steve Rogers: Supersoldier" mini.]

Yeah, I understand that, 'boot, and know about those projects. My dissastisfaction has little to do with the absence of Steve or Sharon but more to do with the feeling that the climax of the run already occurred a good while ago, and nothing happening since has swayed that feeling for me. In other words I won't be picking up Secret Avengers or Super Soldier unless word of mouth really screams a return to form for Brubaker on the characters.

Well, Steve Epting has moved on and Butch Guice has joined Bru for the “post-Cap is dead” era. After reading the first issue, any fears I had about a dip in quality are over—I found it to be excellent.

I’ve long been a fan of Butch Guice and think he’s a seriously underrated and talented artist. I first became aware of him when he was on Action Comics in the 90’s and then later loved his Birds of Prey stuff, even preferring it to Greg Land (back when no one knew Land did all that tracing). I loved when he went to Crossgen where, like most Crossgen artists (including Epting) he did the best work of his career there—Ruse (Epting’s was El Cazador).

Here, Guice’s artwork stands on its own with his own strong style, but I do notice some influences: first, early 70’s Sal Buscema before his artwork became highly stylized, which makes me wonder where in Bru’s Cap rereading he currently is (as I stand by his last Idaho arc was firmly influenced by Englehardt). I also notice the Steranko influence in the dream sequence but that is likely directed by Bru, who has a fondness for Steranko and those types of sequences.

I thought the story started off very strong and I really liked the Cap, Bucky and Falcon having a beer sequence. That’s been a long time coming.

Zemo, I think, was done very well, and his intentions remain ambiguous. I was never a fan of Zemo returning to the Thunderbolts to try to be somewhat heroic again and thought that was a big misstep. So I actually wouldn’t care all that much if he became even a bit more villainous. But I think the way Brubaker writes him here keeps him in line with what has come before, and the readers really don’t know yet at all what Zemo is really aiming to do. His early panels in the issue even discuss how Zemo sees himself as someone who could ‘save the world’, which references his later Thunderbolts appearances.

Zemo vs. Cap is such an iconic Marvel image, even if it’s the 2nd Zemo now (who has more appearances by far than his father ever did) and Bucky. It’s such a natural pairing given Marvel history that it has a ‘kewl’ factor for me.

On more general story beats, I think Bru nailed them all as it was a well-paced issue with strong dialogue and Bru was able to strongly convey Bucky’s restlessness and self-isolation, much like he did with Steve Rogers in the first 10 issues so well.

As for the back-up, I’ve stopped reading it.

This is the oldest comic cover I've "restored" to date!

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/captainamerica/CA%20001.jpg


I don't know if I wanna do any more on this one... sometimes you gotta know when to stop. (On the other hand, sometimes I come back months later and continue where I left off...!)

Very nice.

Thanks!


In order to display this cover, I had to set up the thumbnails page for it as
well. I figured, okay, this is the time to do the whole set. So in one fell
swoop, the CAP section has just expanded from 3 thumbnails pages to 7! I also
redesigned the color for them and reformatted all the previous pages, to make
them more consistent with the way I'm upgrading the entire site. I EVEN revised
the CAP INDEX page, which, believe me, WEREN'T easy! (Sometimes trying to work
entirely in raw HTML code can be a B****.)


Now, so far, the ONLY Golden Age CAP covers at the site are for issues #1, 76 &
77... and I can't bring myself to "just" posting GCD versions, EVEN if I hit
them once with "levels" in Photoshop. I mean, those GCD cover images are just
so GHASTLY, so horrendously bad, I don't want to inflict their overwhelming
AWFULNESS on what is otherwise shaping up to be a really classy site. So it's
gonna take some time.


Meanwhile, it just occured to me TODAY to follow my own lead from the Golden Age
GHOST RIDER section to do the Golden Age CAP section that same way. That is,
although to keep things "simple", the thumbnails pages are broken down by 25
issues apiece (1-25, 26-50, 51-75, right where it got cancelled the first time,
how convenient!), I now plan to include EVERY comic Cap appeared in, and set
them up on the pages in CHRONOLOGICAL order. As far as I know, NOBODY online has
ever done this before.


"Why are we doin' this?"
"What do you mean?"
"Well they said it couldn't be done."
"Well there's your answer!"
"That's good enough for Fred."


: D


Henry


PS: Because the 3rd page ends with #75, this means the 4th page, which is listed
as "76-78", will-- EVENTUALLY-- contain the ENTIRE 1950's revival by John
Romita! (I'm considering having a LINK on that particular page to show just what
Jack Kirby's "answer" to that little shebang was... heh heh heh. Hey, I know
which 1950's "patriotic" comics I'D rather be reading!)