Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Captain America

Because I recently decided to expand the Cap & Subby sections to include their Golden Age appearances, that means also posting any books featuring Golden Age reprints of same!


JUST hit me a couple minutes ago, one book I can scan in for this purpose-- Jules Feiffer's THE GREAT COMIC BOOK HEROES. Sure, it's got Superman on the cover (drawn by Joe Shuster), but wayyyyyy in the back are one short episode each of Sub-Mariner and Captain America!


This book holds a warm place in my heart, as it was my very first exposure to pretty much every story reprinted inside-- including the 1st appearance of The Joker, the origin of The Flash and Green Lantern, Namor's rampage thru Manhattan (one episode in the middle of what was essentially a year-long serial-- imagine trying to watch just ONE episode of FLASH GORDON serial!), and Cap's origin. The original version!


I'm pretty sure these have been reprinted fairly recently by Marvel, who's been finally kicking ass on Golden Age reprtint with their Masterworks program (and finally upgrading the quality of them, after they were so abysmal for the whole of the late 80's and 90's). But I'd bet the reprinted pages don't LOOK anything like the ones in this particular OVERSIZED hardbound from 1965. So I'm considering scanning in and posting ALL the Cap & Subby pages contained therein.



I love the typeset intro Feiffer gave Namor at the bottom of the splach page. He says, "He hated eveybody! Good thing the Nazis came along before too long..."



I've been wanting to read the entire serial for ages now, but STUPIDLY, instead of following the lead of DC's WONDER WOMAN Archives (every appearance from whatever series in chronological order), Marvel elected to reprint MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS Masterworks-- Namor, Torch, and all the CRAP nobody with any sense really cares about. They have a separate SUB-MARINER Masterworks-- but it reprints stories from his "solo" book, which started about 2 years later. This is exactly the bonehead blunder DC did with Superman & Batman when they started those Archive series. (The difference being, DC has never yet tried to reprint entire anthology series-- including every single feature, no matter how bad it might be or how much it screams "FILLER!" And this IS what Marvel is doing right now. Marvel, which was always a 3rd-rate company in the 40's, having the nerve to REPRINT all that "junk". Good grief!)

I've picked up a few Cap miniseries but have purposely avoided a few and plan on avoiding most of them. Basically anything further on Steve Rogers or Bucky I'm not picking up, even the Steve Rogers mini with Eaglesham. What I am picking up are the cool fringe type characters with the great creative teams, The Patriot and Young Allies (by Stern and Weeks).

Captain America: The Patriot is about the third Cap, who is actually the superhero the Patriot who then becomes Cap after WWII. This is a character I find fascinating and especially because we the readers know so little about him. He was a Marvel star of the Golden Age, then Kiby & Thomas brought him back as part of the Liberty Legion in the 70's and then it was retconned in that he was the 3rd Cap (since if Cap was lost in 1944-45, how did he have post war adventures). What makes him even more fascinating is that he actually lived to old age, and he also was the Cap that had another sidekick beside Bucky, Golden Girl, who was his love interest.

Karl Kessel writes the story and the first issue blew me away. Really terrific stuff! It just clicked on all levels of pacing, dialogue and excitement. I already really care about Jeff Mace as a person, not just an interesting footnote of Marvel history.

The artist is Mitch Breitweiser, whose artwork is very much in the Steve Epting vein, keeping the really solid feel that Cap has had for several years. He does an excellent job as well, making it exciting and very accurate to the times.

All in all, this has a fantastic beginning. I definitely can't wait to read the rest and recommend this to everyone.

I'll second Cobie's thoughts on the Cap:Patriot mini. It's gone fairly well so far. I imagine #3 will give us the debut of Golden Girl. I find myself wondering if the circumstances of his death will remain in continuity.

I wouldn't say the Patriot was ever a star. He was a solid backing feature in Marvel Mystery, though.

I met Breitweiser and his wife (who is an excellent colorist, btw) at this C2E2. Got a Patriot sketch from him, and this was before I knew about the mini. Anyway, they're both nice folks.

Yeah, 'star' is a bit of stretch. 'Strong secondary player' is a better term. Then again, outside of the Big 3 and possible the Angel and Destroyer, Marvel didn't have many other Golden Age stars.

Pretty much. Guys like the Angel, Destroyer, and Patriot would compare to DC's Atom and Wildcat, IMO. There's a reason only Cap, Torch, and Subby got the revival treatment in the '50s, and that it took decades for Marvel to even put the others back in continuity.

(And just because I feel like nitpicking, it's Timely during this period, not Marvel.)

I will say that, while I'm liking the series so far, it is kind of odd that outcasts like Namor and the Torch take the position they do in #2.

I always was under the impression that the Timely and Atlas designations were only given to those eras by "comic book historians" of later decades. Or maybe that was just Atlas? Regardless, it's always easier to to differentiate the company as Timely / Atlas / Marvel for it's history (I know you're just nitpicking but like you, I'm big on comic book history).

I also caught up on some other Cap reading:

The latest issues of the main title, the Zemo story, are pretty good, but they're not exactly blowing me away. I have two problems: first, I'm starting to find the "Team Cap" routine with the Falcon and Black Widow helping Bucky every story to be slightly tedious. I love both characters but I'm noticing Bru is basically treating Cap as an all-out team comic, whereas before, I felt like he walked the line of making it Cap-centric, then Cap & help-centric, and then back and forth. Whether that was actually the case, I don't know, but it felt like it anyway. And second, it really seems to be dragging on. I think the last four issues could have been done in two.

I'm not as down on Cap as some others were (Lardy, Reboot, etc.) but I'm starting to notice the excitement has fizzled a bit.

I also caught up with Captain America: Young Allies by Roger Stern and company (not Lee Weeks, as I originally thought). So far, I'm enjoying the miniseries, particularly Stern's tight writing. I wish it was a bit more Young Allies-centric than Bucky-centric though; but I understand in order to get the whole thing approved, Stern probably had to shape the story that way. The mystery of modern times is a bit uninteresting. I want to see more of the Young Allies during WWII. The Simon & Kirby kid gangs at DC have always gotten lots of love, but the Young Allies have traditionally gotten the shaft. I'd like to see them get a little Newsboy Legion-esque spotlight.

Both Timely and Atlas were real names used for the publishing company that would become Marvel. The Timely name lasted from 1939-1951 if I'm not mistaken.

I started losing interest at the point they put Bucky in a Cap costume. I still don't like that look.


As with some other Marvel GA characters, it's only been recently that they've acknowledged that these guys actually exist in the MU. Roy Thomas tried his best to replace them with the Kid Commandos in his INVADERS run.

"Whitewash" appears to have been your basic '40s black stereotype character, which may have been why it's taken this long to revisit these characters.

In hopes of not venturing too far off the topic, I was curious about the Atlas / Timely names and was trying to remember where I'd read about it before, and found Don Makstein's explanation:

"Apparently, back in the 1960s, when comic book historical research was in its infancy, a fan got hold of a Goodman-published comic book that happened to have come out during the single quarter of 1942 in which the name "Timely Comics" was used on the cover. He extrapolated, erroneously but enduringly, to come up with the notion that it was the name used by Marvel during that entire period. In reality, there wasn't any name used by Marvel during that entire period. In fact, for two brief periods, it used the name "Marvel".

Similarly, the company used "Atlas" (actually the name of its in-house distributor) as an imprint for several years during the 1950s — but not during the whole 1950s. It's a little more accurate to refer to that decade's output as "Atlas Comics", but not entirely so. (In the 1970s, by the way, after he'd sold Marvel, Goodman was involved in a venture that actually was named Atlas Comics.)

Of course, these labels serve the purpose of communication — "Timely" equals Marvel Comics of the 1940s; "Atlas" equals Marvel Comics of the 1950s; and "Marvel" equals Marvel Comics from the '60s on. It's a whole lot easier to remember that, than to learn the names of dozens if not hundreds of "companies"."

Though I've also read Jess Nevin's history, and right now can't remember if he went into it.

Once again though, I'm impressed as hell by you're (Miner) knowledge of the Golden Age. You know your stuff!

Having read #2 tonight of the Patriot, I'm even more impressed than I was with #1. This is a damn fine series! I love the history they are establishing for the Patriot (and Miss Patriot and others) while really fleshing out the original Marvel continuity post-WWII. Much of this is canon already and we finally get to see it played out, and much of it is brand-new. All of it is excellent so far!

Did anyone else grab the Young Allies mini by Roger Stern that just finished up? (Miner)?

I finally finished it and have to say I thought it was a solid, entertaining story that I'm glad I bought. I wish Stern would do more Young Allies stories.

I much preferred the sequences set in WWII with the Young Allies to the Cap in the present day stories but realize Marvel had that in there to try and market it better (likely Stern included to justify it's existence). Great writing, great art, great use of the characters.

Now I can't wait to finish the excellent Patriot miniseries as well.

The Trail of Captain America, or as it should be called, the Trial of the Winter Soldier, has begun in Captain America, as Bucky must now face the crimes he committed as the Winter Soldier at long last. Thus far, this story has been really good IMO, and I’m enjoying it quite a bit. I wonder if it has a lot to do with Brubaker taking the series back to the over-arching themes / plots of the first 40 issues (as Lardy has suggested before) that is making the story ‘pop’ for me, or if Bru & Butch Guice are stepping their games up again. (I did enjoy the last few story-arcs, mind you, but maybe not quite as much as before).

The Butch Guice artwork is really outstanding and clicks very well with Bru’s Cap. It helps underline the decreasing feeling of hope in the series, which when in conjunction with Bru’s writing is giving it a very noir tone. Bru really seems to like the motif of a good person being stuck in prison (often for crimes they actually did commit though circumstance forced them to do so); it’s also a very noir quality.

I’m anxious to see where this goes. Ultimately, ‘Bucky as Cap’ will not last, but I really have no idea where Bru is going to take Bucky.

Cap remains to me one of the best comics being put out by Marvel. Is it as good as it was a few years ago? I’m not sure, but maybe that is partially because it’s not as new to me anymore. I may not put it in my Top 5 comics in the industry, but it certainly is a comic I look forward to each month.

Also, I realize I didn’t finish reviewing the Patriot miniseries above, which wrapped up a month or two ago. It was excellent and I loved every second of it. One of the highlights of the last few months and I hope Kessel and Breitweiser do more Cap-related stories from the Golden Age and 50’s, focusing on bits we’ve never really seen much of.

A couple months ago I began expanding the CAP section at the SA Marvel site. There's a LOT of blank spaces there right now, but I'm hoping to eventually add in his entire Golden Age career. I've also taken a stab at the "Reprints" section, but haven't done nearly as comprehensive a job as I have on HULK, DAREDEVIL, or, just this past week, X-MEN. It all takes so much time...


A trio of hecklers at the Masterworks board have repeatedly derailed threads & comments by me, and the moderators there are ENCOURAGING it. I tried being as civil and helpful as I could, but it was clear this one guy was never gonna be satisfied until he was DICTATING exactly how and what I do with Nick's site... so I decided to just avoid the place from now on. (My best friend suggested this 2 weeks ago-- once again, he was right!)

So apart from the Yahoo groups I'm in, it looks like LEGION WORLD is now my "main" message board! I hope there's enough to keep me interested here.

http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/

Couldn't find a CAP thread, so here's a new one.


"BUCKY REBORN"-- one-- more-- time!!!


(From the yahoo group... enjoy!)



"The cover of issue #132 looks like something you'd see on an early 60's comic
book edited by Julius Schwartz."


http://www.samcci.nostromo.no/captainamerica/CA%20132.jpg


HAH!!! Yeah, it does!!


Do you remember my review of that issue? It was one of my most long-winded ever
(and that's really saying something). Mostly because that 2-parter involved
some of the worst BONE-HEADED blundering around in the dark ever done at the
time (and THAT'S really saying something!!).


The gist of it was... "The Hood" was revealed to be Baron Strucker. But... Jim
Steranko KILLED him in STRANGE TALES. He finds a dead ringer for Bucky... Cap,
and even "Strucker" thinks, hey, MAYBE it could actually be him? (Decades later,
someone else revealed that Bucky had NEVER DIED-- and is currently around in the
M.U.) But the "Bucky" in this story was really a ROBOT, built by MODOK.


9 years later, continuity cops Roger Stern & John Byrne revealed that "Strucker"
was REALLY A ROBOT-- built by "Machinesmith". And, Machinesmith was really
"Starr Saxon" (the villain of a truly convoluted, badly-thought-out and
bone-headed Barry Smith story in DAREDEVIL). Saxon had gotten KILLED... and
according to Stern & Byrne, he had built MORE than the ONE single robot we ever
saw... he had built DOZENS of robots. And, anytime there was an unexplained
robot in the M.U., guess what? It was his. (This included "Magneto" in Arnold
Drake's "CITY OF MUTANTS". Revealed to be a robot months later by Neal Adams.
Who never explained who built it or why.) According to Stern & Byrne, Saxon's
robots transferred his memories into a computer. So, like the androids on STAR
TREK's "WHAT ARE LITTLE GIRLS MADE OF?", he wasn't really alive. "It"-- just
THOUGHT it was. (Took me a dozen viewings of the ST episode to finally come to
THAT conclusion.)


What this means... is that a ROBOT ("Strucker") found a ROBOT ("Bucky"), and
neither robot knew the other was a robot, or who built them.


I blame Steranko (see STRANGE TALES #167). Or maybe Stan. I can't shake the
feeling that the last 2 pages of ST #167 were Stan's fault somehow. What do YOU
think??


("I've got a GREAT idea, Jim! Let's make the villain DR. DOOM!")


It's like, STERANKO did it! Let's ALL do that!!! (oy)

The recent Captain America issues have been really fantastic IMO! Bucky in the Russian prison, with tons of Cold War super-villains reappearing for the first time in awhile has been excellent. I'd say its probably my favorite "Bucky as Cap" story, which is ironic as he's not really Cap the entire story.

Like always, I love the way Bru writes the Black Widow. It makes me roll my eyes that the Widow doesn't have her own title after Marjorie Liu started one not too long ago with what I thought was excellent quality.

Just got Capt. America #1 (and who says that DC is the only one releasing number 1'a at a rapid pace?)

I've read a smattering of trades from Bru's run on this book (or the last volume) and it was always good, if not great stuff. So , after seeing the movie, I decided to grab the new number 1. Glad I did. Cap, Sharon, Fury and Dum Dum. A former ally turned enemy, and the reveal of a grand villain at the end.

Nice touches throughout the book, and the art is superb.

I also liked it quite a bit, Dev. I've stayed on with Bru's Cap while some others have moved on, and I think it's remained an excellet comic. That continues here and its awesome to read a Bru-written Steve Rogers Cap in a starring roll again; I can also sense it may be what Bru needed to revitalize his own interest.

The artwork really put it over the top! Really fantastic, exciting stuff and it shows yet again why all the hype around McNiven is totally justified.

Ps - I'm enjoying your gradual accumulation of a huge Marvel pull list, Dev!

#2 of Captain America maintains the balance of strong writing by Ed Brubaker with striking artwork by Steve McNiven. I'm quite liking this combo!

The story mixes some new threats and storylines with some old favorites like Fury, Dum Dum and Agent 13. The last page appearance by the Ameridroid is a blast from the past for the Cap fans who appreciate his most obscure rogues.

I'm enjoying that this is a self-contained exciting story with each issue standing on it's own while it builds to a larger story. Cap probably didn't need to be relaunched but I do appreciate a good, strong start.

Captain America and Bucky, two issues it's run so far with #621, is proving to be a fantastic series so far! It is basically a retelling of Bucky's early days with Cap though all new aspects (not a rehashing). In that sense it feels like an excellent old fashioned action-adventure Cap story that could fit right in the Golden, Silver or Bronze ages.

Yet, the while on the surface it's a rollicking good time, there is a strong, deeper story below the surface. This issue tells the story of the first time Bucky took a life, and ends on a powerful note that can easily mirror any other teenager in the military pulled into a war and faced with that decision. It packed a potent punch.

Artist Chris Samnee, who has done a great job on some Cap related minis recently, knocks it out of the park with his Sale / Cooke / Pulido style. Co-writers Brubaker and Andreyko also mesh very well and provide a tight script. Bru always does a fantastic job but I feel that Andreyko, of DC's Manhunter fame, brings some added heart to the series. This is a nice touch for Bucky who until hasn't had too many personal moments in the last few years.

I could easily sit back and enjoy WWII era Cap / Bucky series. But it looks like this has larger importance for modern stories (and I personally suspect Bucky still lives). Either way, as long as it remains well done like these issues, I'm in.

Read Captain America & Bucky #620 the other night. The $2.99 price point, the good reviews and the spotlight on '40s Cap and Bucky made this too tempting to pass up, even after being off Bru's Cap for nearly 2 years.

Chris Samnee has a perfect style for this book which really evokes the era exceptionally well, along with Bettie Breitweiser's muted color palette.

And the story is just deep and resonant in such a way that you really get to know Bucky better than ever before.

I'm definitely up for the rest of the first arc "Masks" and hope the book and the quality will continue beyond!

The current story in Captain America & Bucky is a story featuring the present day Captain America teaming up with Bucky II, Fred Davis, a character we rarely have ever gotten to see. I think its a fantastic idea, and I love the continued development of the Captain America mythos in recent years (like the awesome Patriot miniseries). There are of course tons of flashbacks to Captain America II (William Naslund, the Spirit of '76), which is another character I find fascinating and hardly ever get to see.

The story itself is quite good with a bit of a multi-decade mystery going on. With the main Cap title being kind of the 'big gun' title, it allows for the Cap & Bucky title to have nice little niche stories like this. Hereafter it appears the series will become a Cap team-up, which could still be fun. Beginning with Hawkeye is a smart move Cap-history wise and marketing-wise.

Over in the main Captain America series, I've found the initial story to be very good, though it wasn't exactly 'knock your socks off' good. It was an interesting concept that ran perhaps an issue too long. Evidently Steve McNiven agreed as he couldn't do complete art in the last issue.

Still, I'm enjoying both Cap ongoing series quite a bit these days. And I can't wait for Winter Soldier, which is now out.

I picked up "Captain America" 6 & 7 purely because I am an Alan Davis completist. And, based on the dull, redundant story so far, Davis will be the only reason I'll pick up the rest of the arc.

Methinks it's time for Brubaker to go bye-bye.

I haven't read those issues yet but that doesn't sound good. My reaction to the opening arc (on the previous page) was possibly an indication that the trend was moving in this direction.

I'm conflicted. Prior to Bru coming on board, there really hadn't been a Captain America run since...Mike Zeck? (Waid had a good one but it wasn't really that long and the second go-round never recaptured the magic of the first). So I've enjoyed Cap so much under Bru that I'm worried the series won't be able to find another writer to keep things going strong. Cap isn't an easy character to write; all we need is another coming in to give a story about “Cap dealing with a modern America” and I might go vomit. But, of course, I do recognize that all things come to an end, and Brubaker has been on the series for a number of years now.

Meanwhile, Brubaker has launched the Winter Soldier comic at long last, which to me feels like it should have come out sooner (as for whatever reason I feel like some momentum has been lost). It was a pretty solid effort, but it also didn’t quite have that ‘zing’ to it that I’ve liked with Bru’s ‘Bucky as Cap’ stories. I’m not sure what it is exactly, to be honest. Whether it just wasn’t as edgy as it should be, or perhaps was too reflective with not enough happening?

I’m also beginning to question how every Bucky story now also stars the Black Widow. I love Natasha and consider her one of my favorite characters; but when you’ve got the Widow backing you up and you’re already the Winter Soldier, it kind of alleviates the tension a bit as I’ve now grown accustomed to the idea that together they are an unstoppable spy team. It’s not the same as the Sharon / Cap dynamic; Sharon is awesome but she still a regular person that happens to be extremely good at what she does. Meanwhile the Black Widow is the freaking Black Widow: she’s the best spy in comic books, period. At the very least, we need a couple of Winter Soldier without Black Widow stories going forward.

Also, the art by Butch Guice seemed off here for some reason. Bettie Brettweiser did the colors, but I recognize her too from other Cap-related stories and she usually gets it right. I’m not sure what was missing here, or if it was on purpose, but the series was overly dark and scratchy. Instead of enhancing the mood, it kind of took me out of it. Hopefully they get that right by #2, as I’ve really love Guice’s artwork and think Brettweiser does a great job.

I’m hopeful Brubaker can tell the best Winter Soldier stories possible in the months to come. Maybe its time for him to wrap up his Cap run and focus solely on Bucky? I’m worried though about what would follow soon after. Just look at Daredevil before Waid relaunched it.

So, the Winter Soldier has gotten quite good lately! The awesome Michael Lark has come on for a great spy story that I'm thoroughly enjoying. It took a few issues, but I think WS has found the proper footing to remind me why I was excited for it when I first expected it all those years ago.

The other Cap titles are treading water until the relaunch, though the Cap team-up series has great Barry Kitson art for the Iron Man story.

Winter Soldier has been awesome since Bru first brought Bucky back... I dropped Cap's book when he brought Steve back!

I've been high on WS since #1 and it's currently the only Misney title I'm collecting. They did me the favor of cancelling The Defenders and DnA's cosmic titles.

Whelp, looks like some bad timing. Brubaker\'s leaving WS soon. On the plus side, one can infer that Brubaker's moving on to exclusively creator-owned stuff now. Good for him!