Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Captain America

Granted that there's more competition, but I think what's disappointing is just how spectacularly the traditional American comic book has failed to remain competitive.

Compare it to manga, which has been around almost as long, but which has become an increasibly huge industry over the past half-century, and is certainly a significant cultural force in Japan and more and more in the rest of the world.

I've been thinking a lot about ol' Cap since his murder was announced. (That's my way of apologizing in advance for a too long post).

Like many comics fan, I've never been a regular Cap reader, but I have always enjoyed him in the Avengers. Which is really Marvel's problem with the character and the title, so I actually don't blame them for capitalizing on all the free publicity. If there's actually good stories with good characterizations behind it, all the better (in my opinion, Civil War was a good story with characterizations so bad I quit Marvel entirely). As a living symbol, you can't just have Cap fighting bank robbers. But who wants to read 12+ issues per year, year in and year out, of "relevant" stories that best exploit Cap's character?

As I thought about Cap, I came to the conclusion that he's not just a character out of time, he's character out of place in his own world. Cap is, like America itself, a symbol of indominatable optimism flying in the face of of our own collective shortcomings. Ever since Stan, Jack and Steve pioneered the "hard luck" heroes in the early 1960s, and people like Roy Thomas, Steve Englehart, Gerry Conway, Roger Stern and Chris Claremont took that ball and ran with it, the Marvel Universe has become a very depressing place, where flawed heroes fight and die just to keep the world hanging by a thread above oblivion. Ragnarok is always just around the corner. Aunt May is always on her death bed. Peter Parker's love is always one issue away from tragic death. The Sentinels are always about the wipe out Mutantkind. Phoenix is always one thought away from the annihilation of the universe. Busiek exploited this quality beautifully in the JLA's critique of Earth 616 in JLA/Avengers.

It might very well be more realistic (it certainly fits the times it grew out of), but it's a poor fit for someone as decent, nice and optimistic as Cap, so it's no surprise the Universe finally offed him, at least temporarily.

As for all the press, who can blame this for touching a chord with the public? We are living through a time when optimism and confidence in America--both a government and a people--is at its lowest point since Viet Nam. (Not surprising that it's the fault of some of Viet Nam's most craven and hypocritical cowards. I'm lookin' at you, Cheney!) Seeing Captain America assasinated after taking a stance against an unconstitutional invasion of privacy perfectly captures the zeitgeist, if you ask me.

What will be interesting to see is if Marvel has the insight and guts to bring down the whole post-Civil War new status quo ("Big Brother is watching you, but it's OK 'cause it's Iron Man") in the inevitable quagmire of corruption and venality that these situations produce in the real world. I hope so. I might start reading their books again.

Does the whole "Sharon Carter as sleeper agent shooting Cap three times in the abdomen" thing remind anyone else of Sharon Veleri as Cylon sleeper agent shooting Adama (3x?) in the chest on "Battlestar Galactica?" I'm sure it's a coincidence, but still...

Either way, don't trust any woman named Sharon (yes, I'm referring to you Ms. Stone...)

good point on the Manga. I don't read Manga(but I have watched anime based on it) however, I am under the impression that Manga features end. Captain America and other heroes have been around for 40-50 years or more. and they go through a cycle of changes and reverses of those changes. but don't Manga titles end?


and lastly, doesn't Manga feature a wider variety of topics: romance, big robots, school girl ninja warriors, etc, etc the domestic scene is 95% heroes and maybe %5 vertigo, icon and indie labels making non-hero stuff. but how much does that 5% sell? Cap #25 is sold out at my LCS, but plenty of Criminal #5 is still available.

Manga can be plotted out in advance or it can be open ended.

I'd argue that given a proper distribution system the other genres you mention would sell fine.

For example, How many women do you know would walk into a "comic book store" to buy a single issue of a romance comic? Now what if romance comics were produced in pocket paperback sized format and shelved with Harlequin Romance in a regular bookstore?

With the manga boom i'm surprised someone like Harlequin hasn't thought of something like this. Surely some of those teenagers reading romance manga will graduate to Fabio covers and creative anatomical euphemisms.

In discussing the way Marvel made sure that this issue would become scarce quickly Steve Bennett of DarkStar Comics wrote:

Good post double chinner. My favorite Cap was when he lived in a apartment in Brooklyn or Queens. He had a girlfriend and friends who also lived there. They made Cap go out and TRY to live like a modern person by interacting with Americans.

Cap is the most human of the Avengers yet he's the one that probably least interacts with them. Tony can be accussed of living in a castle above the rest of humanity but he knows the current American people better than Cap who has always been living in the past.

This is the fault of the writers. Bringing back old dead supporting characters is a pet peeve of mine. Let the character evolve with new supporting characters. It's a great way to update the main character....update their sppt cast. Iron Man for instance has some "friends" in his book. I love them. Different interactions, etc.

Ohwell, as I said before I just Cap doesn't come back with a machine gun or a teenager.

This is a perfect example of how a CBS owner should handle those just looking to make a quick buck off the issue.

This , on how the media handled the even, was pretty funny too.

David Willis offers his unique take on things in today's 3/12/07 Shortpacked .

You know, I read #24, but after the past week of coverage, plus the two (or was it three?) month gap between #24 and #25, I can't actually tell you that much about what DID happen in #24...

Hmmmm... red herring, or glimpse of the future...

The New Captain America?

Hmmm...I suspect Marvel will be milking this for all its worth considering the publicity Cap's death has garnered. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we begin to see a whole series of images of current Marvel characters with adapted costumes and the question "Is this the new Captain America?" for the next few months.

This of course will lead to the next big Marvel event, entitled something like "The Shield Reborn", which will bring back Cap (either a resurrected Steve or someone assuming the mantle.) This event will, of course, require Marvel Universe wide tie ins ("New Avengers: The Shiled Reborn", "Mighty Avengers: The Shield Rebron", "Young Avengers: The Shield Rebron", Fantastic Four: The Shield Reborn", "The Champions: The Shield Reborn", "Omega Flight: The Shield Reborn", etc); a 52 issue maxi ("The Shield Reborn"); various and sundry prologues and epilogues (The Illuminati: The Shield Reborn", "The Shield Reborn: Aftermath") and at least one 64 page summary edition with writers notes, artiists sketches, and commentary of why this was all necessary by none other than Joe Quesada entitled "The Shield Reborn: Marching Orders"; alll of which will lead up to the relaunch of a monthly book entitled "Captain America: The Shield Reborn" in October of 2009.


None of which I will pay 1 red cent for!

You know... "The Shilled Reborn" probably would be a more accurate title for it!

This whole thing seems familiar somehow... where did I read this... oh yeah... "Death of Superman"

Oh, come on.

It's not like they have a young Cap out there to take his place....but there is Patriot, I guess.

But there's no cyborg Cap type....unless you count Bucky and his arm.

But there's definitely no nutjob Cap in the MU....unless USAgent counts.

Forget I said anything.

Wait just a minute! Bucky? As in Cap's sidekick Bucky? Is he still alive!? I really need to find thumbnail sketches of plots somewhere...

Yeah, I haven't read Cap for years but from what I understand, Buck IS back somehow and is known as the Winter Soldier (I think) Perhaps someone can fill in the details.

Bucky, as of now, was not blown to bits in '45 after all. He was recovered by the Russians and brainwashed into an assassin duirng the Cold War, though he was largely kept in suspended animation over the decades because he was fighting the programming.

It's a tribute to Ed Brubaker's skills as a writer that he made all this work.

yeah...Bucky is a cold war super assassin ruskie now. Great huh?

Oh and he killed Nomad.

Reading it from Brubaker, however ludicrous is sounds, actually makes this storyline one of the best to happen in 25+ years of Cap history though. I highly reccomend it.

I'm continuing to catch up on reading recent comics, so I just read Cap # 25 and the first issue of Fallen Son, so I can finally read this thread and join in on the discussion ...

You know, if they're going to make big media event and crossovers, this is the way to do it. The story is very well told. It shows Cap being true to himself and his ideals right up until the very end (he takes a bullet for one of the guards who is escorting him to court in chains), and also vividly displays how important Cap is to virtually everyone in the Marvel Universe (echoes of the JFK assassination come to mind).

Cap has always worked best for me when he reflects whatever is going on in the United States. I first encountered him during the early '70s, when his own identity crisis mirrored the disillusionment of Watergate. The character became somewhat generic and unexciting during the '80s, and I largely lost touch with him from the '90s until now. But the Super-Hero Registration Act, whatever its other dubious merits, brings out the best in Cap. It's fitting that he would side with freedom, even though doing so would be illegal (!). It's also fitting that he would surrender after his protest causes more damage than good. Cap is the quintessential hero who puts others before himself.

And this is why (in the story) people show up at the courthouse to support him even though they disagree with his stance. This is why (in reality) his death makes the evening news, even though most everyone is certainly not fooled about its permanence. Cap represents the best in how we wish to see ourselves.

Even Wolverine, an anti-hero who is probably as far removed from Cap's ideals as you can get, risks much to interrogate the supposed killer and to see Cap's body. Even Wolverine can't accept that Cap is dead.

And Sharon Carter ... well, aside from the fact that this plot twist reminded me of a similar story line on Babylon 5 -- where one character is brainwashed into betraying another and then forced to remember doing so -- it was handled well within the story. We see the barrel of the handgun next to Cap's red and white stripes, then hear the shots -- but have no idea what is happening until much later. When the revelation came, it was shocking. Poor Sharon.

So far, I've been moved by this storyline, which doesn't happen very often in comics these days. I can understand if some feel this story is too realistic, but I think that's what touches me most. As I'm writing these words, I'm watching news coverage of the funeral of a 24-year-old soldier who was killed in a bomb blast in Iraq. Real heroes die every day.

As I said, Cap works best when he reflects what is really happening in this country.

Thanks for changing the thread title, Reboot. It's bound to get more attention this way.

So, has anybody else read Fallen Son? I've now read the second and third installments and am pretty much blown away. Since no one else seems to have anything to say about it, I'm going to prattle on a bit longer about it. Some more SPOILERS ahead ...

Issue # 2 features the Avengers, and has two interweaving stories, mostly split on each page with one story on top and the other on the bottom. Normally, this sort of gimmick doesn't work, but here it does. In the "top" story, Ms. Marvel, Wasp, Ares (!), the Black Widow, Wonder Man, and Sentry respond to an attack by Tiger Shark, who has summoned some sea monsters with the giant horn-thing that Namor uses. In the "bottom" story, the Thing plays poker with Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Man, and Spiderwoman.

Not much connection there, right? Well, except that there's an undercurrent of anger (which is also the story's title: "Anger") that gradually builds as heroes in both camps react to one slight after another. The story reaches its climax when Wolverine shows up at the poker game and coldly takes the empty seat -- the seat reserved for Cap. This proves too much for a certain other player to handle.

Issue # 3 has a certain dead (!) Avenger showing up and being tapped by Iron Man as Cap's replacement. But when they confront two junior heroes, including one who has taken on the name of the supposedly dead Avenger (how's that for being cryptic?), things don't turn out the way Iron Man expects. The last panel is one of the most heart-wrenching moments I've seen in comics since, well, ever.

What writer Jeph Loeb has done in Fallen Son is taken each aspect of the grief process (denial, anger, bargaining, etc.) and crafted a literal interpretation of it, showing how these emotions play out in the lives of the people closest to Cap. It's very real and riveting.

It's a shame that Tony Stark has to be the bad guy in all this, but someone has to be the bad guy, and the role suits him well. Tony has the power -- technologically, financially, and politically -- to effect the changes necessary for the Super-Hero Registration Act to work in the MU. He also is blinded by his own power and the "bigger vision" it enables him to achieve. He has become so obsessed with "rules" and "laws" that he has forgotten what it means to be a hero. This has already cost him one friend, Cap. In Fallen Son # 3, it costs him another.

If you're not reading this, you should.

I picked up a couple of issues of Fallen Son on the basis of art-- and thoroughly... not enjoyed, that's the wrong word... but I was totally engrossed in the story itself. Loeb admits to expressing alot of the grieving he went through after losing his son in these stories.

I got #3 for JR Jr.s artwork, #5 for Cassaday's... almost got #2-- McGuinness, right? I might go back and get it, and Yu's Wolverine issue; David Finch on Spidey is the only one that leaves me cold. Over-rendered blyah... Chapter 5, Acceptance, was so moving and powerful. Sam's eulogy was incredible and brought out what Cap meant to everyone. Cassaday's 2-page flashbacks for various mourners were awesome. The ending was fitting, bringing Cap full-circle in a way that left me speechless, even a little teary. Great, great piece of work.

I may pick up the HC collection to go with the Cap Omnibus I ordered. But Marvel is still way too dodgy anymore for me to commit to buying floppies.