Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Shooter gone @ 50, Bedard re-launching Legion?!?!?!?

To me, it seems that in LS and Action, not too many years have passed since Crisis - maybe another Five years later? I would guess the characters to be in their middle 20s, the three founders maybe 30. As this is playing in the 30th century, being 30 does not mean the same that being 30 is meaning today - and even today, being 30 does not mean that someone is already old or uninteresting...

I never understood why so many people were so keen on the Legion being teenagers. I mean, yes, they started as teenagers, but in most of their classic stories, they certainly did not ACT like teenagers. So their "inner age" over the decades was always about 25, maybe older. And even if they were teenagers in the beginning: how interesting can a book be whose characters just don't develop? Those are supposed to be human beings, so how can they be 18 for the rest of their (and our) lives? they HAVE to grow older, and I really liked it when this was shown prominently in 5YL cause I had grown older with them, so this was natural.

Just discovering the JSA myth, I really think there's an example how character growing older can be managed. They grow, they have successors, they even die. That's the stuff a true epic is made of, not 20 teenagers in spandex fighting Tangleweb for 20 years over and over again...

Based on what little I know about the comics process, it'd bet it was #4 or maybe #5.

(If this was a joke...sorry. I took it literal.)

If there is no series planned beyond the current one, then not allowing Shooter and Manapul to finish at #54 is criminal and I'm shocked no one in Editorial at DC has learned enough from the DnA debacle to let the creative types finish their stories properly.

Nah, I got my anger out of the way back in 2004 (well, and 05. And 06. But by 07 I was in recovery ). Now, I'm just watching with a sort of detached amusement.

Yes, but why did they keep it going? What, exactly, were they trying to accomplish by reforming the Legion? That's what I've always felt was missing.


See, this is where I think Mark and Barry didn't really make their intentions clear (the "we're so bored of it we could scream" from the first issue didn't help). At the start of the 3boot, the Legion was partly a counter-culture movement, but the actual team was together because they believed that society was stagnating and, at least for Brainy and Cos, that the stagnation would lead to society being defenseless in the face of new threats from the outside. It was less "youth against parents" and more "radicals against the stifling status quo." I'm not saying it worked, necessarily, but it wasn't as simple as a lot of people seemed to interpret it.
I will admit that Shooter has offered his Legion more opportunities for heroism than many of the recent versions, but it doesn't solve the basic premise problem: the reason for the base existence of the team is not especially compelling. (For myself, I preferred a Legion that didn't care what anyone else thought, but worked to save them anyway. They weren't trying to prove themselves, because they already believed in themselves and that was enough.)

Whatever else they are, DC is in the business of making money, which they do by selling more comics, and, based on fan reaction to the "Action" Legion, they probably think they can do that better with a different Legion than the one that's running now. Even if the current book is selling better than it did in '03, how much better did the Superman and the Legion stories sell in Action? How many copies of the hardcover did they sell? That's the metric that DC is going to pay attention to.


Actually, Giffen had been gone a couple of years when the 5yl was rebooted.
This I absolutely agree with. The split between Legion fans has some of the characteristics of a religious schism. DC is going to have a tough time satisfying all the factions of Legion fandom at this point. I think that's another reason to give us six months to a year off. Let us all get some distance, then come back with a Legion book that gets back to the fundamentals. Of course, to do that you have to figure out what those fundamentals are...

Yes, but the book was dumbed down from then on - it was an editorial decision to get the book back to spandex, "action scenes" and dumb nicknames, which made no sense at all after all that happened before. It's like calling Ron Marz (the butcher of GL) to write Doom Patrol after Grant Morrison. The reboot was a consequence of a stupid decision. Legionnaires was supposed to be the "hero" book while "LSH" could be the challenging (or the suggested Omega Men Keith was supposed to be doing).

There are no fundamentals. Each reboot gave a new unique perspective on what makes Legion - some of them even contradict each other (youthful optimism x long and established chronology). Unless DC works in a different agenda in different rules - and from what I can see from W&K original idea and hopefully Johns interpretation there is some space for a bolder approach - Legion will NEVER catch on again, because they will always piss some side of it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that after being absent from the Legion for so many years, I want to see something that really reminds me of what I grew up with and thus fell in love with from the beginning. After my brother sold my Legion comics, I gave up on the idea of resuming a collection for about 20 years. During those 20 years I would visit my favorite store for roleplaying games. That same store was a huge comic outlet as well. Without failure, nearly every visit I would still go to the walls of comics and look at the recent copy or two of whatever version or title of Legion existed at the time.

What I found was barely recognizable from my childhood. The names changed, every costume was different, some powers changed. Some of the titles like L.E.G.I.O.N. made absolutely no sense to me, and so despite my fondness for the past, I didn't buy. The cost was enormous compared to what I had paid growing up as well and so that was another major deterrent. I saw the hardcover archive books and wanted them so badly, but just couldn't bring myself to pay $50.00 for one book.

Now, after so many years, I accidently ran into the very first issue I ever owned of Legion. I bought it for fifty cents. Once I got that copy back in my hands, things changed. I had no problem buying the archive books and once I acquired them all I decided to blend my 2 favorite things...Legion and roleplaying games. I then began collecting back issues, partly for research, partly for reading and enjoying the best part of my what was...a miserable and abusive childhood. So for me Legion represents a few things...

1. The best part of my childhood.
2. Becoming immersed in the warm feeling I get inside when I actually read Legion.
3. Nobody to tell me no, I can't have that.
4. Nobody there to take it away from me.
5. A blending of hobbies....the best with my second best hobby.
6. A matter of pride in the ownership of something I love more than anything thing else.
7. The entertainment value it offers.

So why would I prefer something quite similar to what I had so long ago....because it was one of the few times I smiled inside growing up. That's what Legion means to me and as disfunctional as I may sound.....that's what I want as an adult...and that is what I still receive when I read Legion. They make me happy. If you knew me, you'd want me to smile more than I do.

So it isn't a matter of right or wrong, what's better or worse...it's what I get out of it and being as happy as possible with that. That's all!

That all makes sense to me. When I read the Action run by Johns, it was like I was a kid again. I really miss things the way they used to be.

Phantom Girl and Patch Lad, I hear what you are saying, but I don't see how a new Legion series can survive in the form that I think you want. The early Legion stories were good, but the Adventure Legion always prevailed and everything pretty much turned out fine (with very limited exceptions). Even during most of the S/LSH run and into Levitz/Giffen, the universe was pretty rosy, things generally turned out fine, and the characters remained fairly static. I'm not sure that modern comics readers will accept that type of universe. Even the preboot Legion's greatest stories, such as the Great Darkness Saga, have to be recognized as achievement for their times. However, if that came out today, most modern readers would fight it anachronistic and trite. The only ongoing readers I can see such a series attracting would be old Legion fans, and we probably number about the same as the people currently buying the Threeboot.

Right now, the Johns' Legion is selling very well because it attracts old readers who love the nostalgia and new readers who have been brought in by Superman. The old readers don't really matter, because we will generally read whatever Legion is offered. So the key for a new series' success is keeping new readers. For them to stay with the new series, they will need to see more than optimistic characters. Readers expect characters to develop and grow now. They get bored easily, and they also seem to want to see realism. IMO, that was why Waid's Legion failed -- too many issues were devoted to Cosmic Boy fighting Braniac Five for control of the Legion, interrupted by the universal threat of the month. Not enough time was spent making us care for the characters (imo, that is what Shooter is doing, but unfortunately, that came too late). So far, Johns' books seem to be following the Waid approach -- taking the characters and having them react to the pending extrinsic threat. What personalities they have are the personalities that we are filling in for them or the personalities that John has told us exist (e.g., the descriptions of the founders as Truth, Justice, and the American Way). I don't think that will sustain a new series at a level that makes yet another reboot worthwhile, so I fully anticipate any new series to be set in a dystopian and grim universe. (I also cynically believe that one of the goals behind reviving the "old" Legion is to add a lot more characters to the mainstream DC universe, so that DC has fodder for its annual event books. DC has pretty much exhausted the various Titans books, and needs a new supply of bodies. I don't find it coincidence that two Legionnaires died the first time that Legionnaires have played a significant role in a DC event book in years.)

I see what you mean. However, Geoff Johns has a pretty good track record at taking old characters and making them interesting again... JSA (newest series), Teen Titans, Green Lantern... And the classic "back to the basics with a twist" approach seems to have been very successful so far.

i don't agree at all!

i think that in his action comics arc with the legion johns did a good work giving each carachter his own feel. they don't talk the same way, they don't act the same way. every legionnaire has a clear personality, even if not deeply analyzed (but the story was just 6 issue long, you know). garth is the hot head, imra is the reasonable one; and look at brainy ("i was wr... i was wr..."), or at the subs, or remember the scene between timber wolf and wildfire. they don't seem flat characters at all to me. a little brush stroke after another.

as for Lo3W, the story is just beginning and it's not like in issue 1 the legion had so much time in front of the cameras. at least half of the story was about superboy prime... so, i think that before accusing this story to render carachter's personalities just as as stereotypes we should wait and see.

I realize Johns is limited by the format of his stories. However, he has actually written about the same number of recent Legion stories -- between Lightning Saga, Superman and the LSH, and Lo3W -- than Shooter has written. I also never said that Johns has not given them personalities at all. What I said is that the personalities he has given them so far reminds me of what Waid did -- he told us their personalities (Lightning Lad is hotheaded, Cosmic Boy is tolerant, Imra is truth). Whether Johns develops them beyond that stage is the critical issue for me.

the lightning saga isn't a story about the legion. it's a story where some legionnaires have a large role, but their time on stage is really limited. besides, most of the story was written by brad meltzer, whose recent comic book writing left me very cold (i'm a fan of his novels, though).

i think what you are referring is influenced by Lo3W #1, which does have a scene where the three founders are actually described the way you just quoted. what i suggest you is to not be influenced too much by that scene (which, btw, didn't exalt me neither). try to re-read "superman & the losh" on action comics, you'll see that johns didn't just depict the legionnaires just by telling what their personalities are supposed to be, but he let those personalities emerge by the characters' behaviour.

i think a legion series written the way johns did with his action comics arc would work.
waid described the legionnaires by looking at them through the eyes of an old man, who looks at kids and only sees their faults. wak's legionnaires were immature at best. i believe it's obvious that kids didn't like to read a comic book where they were portraied like that. it was... insulting.
on the other hand, johns' legion is more pleasant, and even if characters still have their faults (look at lightning lad, for example) they aren't seen from the point of wiew of someone who feels better than them. io think they're more human and more relatable.

I recently read the Action Comics Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes, now I am reading the Lightning Series (which I find confusing by the way). I'm not finding any real characterization at all. To me the Legionnaires all seem the same, so I guess I'm missing what others are seeing.

As for having the Action Legion take over....ok by me, but then I'll take what I can get....perhaps I'll see more characterization after more stories are written (if DC goes that direction)

This L.E.G.I.O.N. thing though sounds like a spin off which isn't actually Legion, so I wouldn't want that to take the place of Legion. Now granted I haven't read it and it very well may be good, but if it isn't the Legion then I'm missing the point of having it become the Legion replacement. Eventually I will read it when I have collected enough back issues. I don't see how it can be a viable replacement though if it doesn't have any Legionnaires in it and just distant relatives at best.

Well, I emailed Dan DiDio and Paul Levitz last Thursday. Finally got a response from Dan today. Still nothing from Paul (and I'm not holding my breath though it would be nice to get a response)

My email said the following:

"Dan & Paul:

I'm writing to express my dismay at the news that the Legion of Super Heroes has been canceled once again.

I've been a die hard fan since the early Adventure run and have bought and enjoyed every single issue of the Legion since then. I can assure you that it (LSH) is the main reason I visit my comic shop regularly.

I must admit to being as confused today about the treatment given such a special franchise as I was when they lost their place in Adventure and became DC's nomads for a while. I can certainly understand a cancellation if a book doesn't sell sufficient copies to make it profitable but have a hard time believing that is the case with Legion of Super Heroes when so many other DC titles fare even worse and continue to be published.

In my opinion the biggest problem with the Legion is the constant rebooting and relaunches that this title has endured over the years. LSH could easily have been DC's X-Men franchise. Instead it seemed to be more of an after thought.

I can only hope that you have not wasted all the publicity and "face time" the Legion has seen this year ... it's 50th anniversary. Surely there is some plan to make use of all that effort. Just about every single creator I've heard address the topic of the Legion says they are a big fan and would love to write or draw it someday. That must tell you something about how unique a property this is. And it's long time, die hard fans should tell you even more.

Please give this title the respect it deserves. The world needs a bright hope for the future now more than ever."


Of course, the reply I got is identical to everyone else so I won't waste the space in posting it once again.

If I happen to hear back from Paul I'll let you know.

I disagree. Comics sell much less than they used to. The 150K who buy the #1 title out there? Very few are new readers. There are less "new readers" than former readers. Sure there are 10, 20, 30 thousand new readers. Where are the half mil of the old readers.

The new readers debate doesn't jive with me because ALL of comics need new readers. The olders will not buy anything DC offers. The hardcore fans that will buy anything will ofcourse. The rest of the old readers want their old characters, old continuity with new adventures.

Old readers who do not currently buy the title but want to outnumber new readers. It's new coke versus classic coke.

So we've got long time fans emailing DC telling them how much they love the Legion. People expressing a desire to see them in a series, and John's recent arc in Action selling more than the current series does.

DC would have to be crazy not to consider the current series a pale comparison. It may not be a total failure, but it's not the revenue generater that they want. Between the fans and the sales, they have to consider a more classic Legion a viable success.

I don't know, are casual fans going to want to get involved in a series which is tied to continuity that's been inactive for many years (and only sporadically in print in trades?) In a title which has always had a knock against it as being difficult to catch on to? I'm not totally sure. It's one thing to catch readers eyes in a more well established series (Action) with a creative team that's well established and reasonably popular and another to start yet another new Legion title from scratch.

I really wouldn't be surprised if Action starts regularly featuring the Legion as the ongoing costars like the old Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes concept.

hey folks I just wanted to chime in and say thanks for your support of the book. It's really sad to see it go but I'm sure DC has some plans for it's future.

Francis, I want to personally thank you for a great run that got better and better as it went on. I look forward to the last 4 issues and am sorry it won't continue afterward.

Honestly I decided to keep buying Legion because of your artwork - glad I did! I love your work. You draw the BEST Saturn Girl ever!

Please let us know what future projects you will be working on so I can check them out.

At least I got to see you draw my favorite Legionnaire, Dream Girl

I really do think it could be done, considering JSA with its even more challeged continuity which hadn't had an own series for many many years got a lot of readers hooked and is still running rather successfully. They did some very helpful Secret Files issues in 1999 and 2001 - the Legion would have to do this as well - and I still believe that a small inexpensive Reprint of the "Secrets of the Legion" Threeparter would help many people jump on the bandwagon quite easily. Back when I was a kid, that Threeparter told me everything I had to know, and I went from there, though I guess I had read some Legion stories before but not many... memory is hazy...

So yes, done with the right fervor, you could drag people into the Legion.

As for Francis, I really appreciate your work on the Legion, I was astonished how much I grew to love it so quickly. Hopefully you guys will be able to pull of the current storyline in some satisfactory way. I'll be looking out for your next work!

This is exactly how I feel. Reviving the 80s Legion isn't going to attract any new readers.

Thanks, Francis, for some great work. Maybe one day we'll see YOU back on the Legion.

Question: Did you find it as daunting a job as many others with so many characters, or did you enjoy the challenge?

Given time, the Shooter-Manapul teamwork on the Legion will be reappraised for what it was: a genuine highlight of the Legion myth. I can assure it is already among my top 10 LSH runs.

thanks!

I need to second Ricardo's comments. Frances, your run on Legion was a true highlight for the series.